lol Inconsistant seems to have this "instant loss" feeling attached to it..Everyone has faced one and i have to say its the same as relying on Brightpowder to make the other guy miss..Its based on luck, and if you happen to lose against one just be happy that was probably the other dudes first win in a while..Inconsostent is just that..Inconssistant.Its not broken, its just based on luck and a crappy ability..Though everyone will realize this eventually..
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!
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lol Inconsistant seems to have this "instant loss" feeling attached to it..Everyone has faced one and i have to say its the same as relying on Brightpowder to make the other guy miss..Its based on luck, and if you happen to lose against one just be happy that was probably the other dudes first win in a while..Inconsostent is just that..Inconssistant.Its not broken, its just based on luck and a crappy ability..Though everyone will realize this eventually..
A quality team doesn't rely on that one turn to get their evasion/defenses/speed boost. They plan knowing that it probably won't happen. They specifically capitalize their team to wait and make multiple attempts until they get their boost. And they don't switch in on some sweeper who will OHKO if they don't get a boost. They come in on something helpless that they can force out and they Sub on the switch. Then they can start the cycle of Protect/Sub until their stats are all deadly.
Seriously, have you ever played a good Inconsistent team?
I can understand why people want this banned..Its just that most people here lost once or maybe twice to an Inconsistent team, and being it based on hax(which people hate) will make them remember it more than if they lost to a rain dance team or a regular team.If the playes loses constantly to a luck based ability then its probably that persons team just has big flaws.
This is why i think everyone wants it banned..They lost once to hax and that memoery burns in them and made a big impact..Howver we have to remember that if we look into the other persons point of view that was a win in like 3-4 defeats..Howver,like i said, that loss is burned into the losers memery and assume it is broken..
Maybe i haven't...I just assume anyone using this kind of team is a noob..
But luck is fickle and it seems to be a law of the universe that people who have bad luck...will continue to have it for multiple periods of time all close together. And insulting luck just begs for it to screw someone over horribly to show just how powerful it can be. If someone faces someone with a near Taveren status (aka bends the universe to their will and influences chance so that even the most unlikelies of things could happen) and they start getting all the good boosts they need (+2 Evasion/Speed/Def/Atk) it, then it won't be such a bad ability.
And even if it is chance happy, it is better odds than some things unless you are one of those who are in a bad luck stage in which case it is better to stop playing it. But still, it is nowhere near "Crappy" especially on Smeargle who can pass and Octillery/Bibarel who have multiple times swept people and uber teams.
How is getting random +2s for sitting around and twiddling your thumbs a "Hyped up, crappy ability"? 0_o
It may be completely luck based, but you're still getting +2s for more or less nothing... And getting a random -1 doesn't really balance it out...
Luck has nothing to do with ability (unless you can bend fate but even then it requires a modicum of skill to take advantage). It never has. Someone could have the best designed team ever (which rarely happens) and still lose horribly if luck goes against them. And the chances of it going against them are much much much much higher with Inconsistent stalling. It's "counters" (which even then are situational since luck overrides the concept of counter in this case) are limited and few and more often than not, will still be murdered by Inconsistent or damaged in such a way that it can't do it again. Obviously smart people aren't going to leave their Inconsistent Pokemon on something that can kill them, even with +2 def with no Sub or Protect available. But that's why you send it in on something it can scare out/kill and watch the fires burn. And if those "counters" are dead, unless Inconsistent backfires (which one should not be banking on and is just as bad a strategy as the Inconsistent user getting every needed stat in a row which could happen but one shouldn't plan for that), it is essentially checkmate unless you get really lucky against them.
And relying on luck to beat luck is...well, relying on luck to beat luck which has nothing to do with skill/planning/strategy in which case those who get it first wins. Whether you admit it or not, it is broken to rely on that and even with the chance of bad luck it is more likely to save the game for someone who is losing and if one is losing, what else have they got to try for? If they're losing, they've lost without it and Inconsistent has a nasty habit of turning winning games into losing ones for the opponent. You can't plan for that, stop it, or rely on any consistent check because it is...for a horrible pun...inconsistent.
There is a reason why Evasion and OHKO Clause exists. We want the metagame to based on skill (and while there is hax and luck involved, we try to keep this minimal), not someone spamming luck and hoping for the best. I don't know how many times you've played against Inconsistent, but every time I've played against, I've had try PP stall the thing out with my CM Manaphy and result in a 10 minute long match at the least. This is ONE Pokemon, not the whole team.
The best arguments people try to come up with against Inconsistent being banned seem to be
-It relies on Luck (So what? That has never been a legitimate excuse and is the exact reasoning for a ban. Luck has nothing to do with playing skill and can even trump it, especially in these cases.)
-A "well constructed team" can play around it (What are you smoking? Reason #1 of Luck negates this since even the best teams are torn apart if luck should turn against you and Inconsistent has a VERY big chance of doing so).
-It has (some) counters like Haze/Perish Song/Taunt/Roar/Whirlwind/Clear Smog/Dragon Tail/Unaware (Yeah, Roar/Whirlwind/Dragon Tail can miss and are only temporary, as is Haze. Haze is worse since it doesn't do any damage at all and they get yet another +2 which if it is an attack boost will deal heavy damage back to you. Clear Smog users are very very few and the best one is the shroom and pretty much none of the others would ever be seen/use it like Gengar would never carry it. Perish Song can still give them enough time to beat you and switch out and unless it's the last one, only temporary. Taunt users can get attacked like Octillery Flamethrowing/Icebeaming/etc Mischievious Heart birds and Taunt users. And they could still get defenses and evasion boosts to make them really hard to kill. Plus it forces you to use obscure things like Unaware and Perish Song Murkrow which would be absolutely useless otherwise. Even then you have the advantage, forcing people to run stupid stuff and still have a higher than likely chance of winning.)
-It can strike against itself (see 1st reason. Again, so what? The likelyhood of it doing something truly bad to you is far far less than doing something bad to the opponent. And relying on the opponent's luck to be bad is not a strategy at all, it is a hope. There is no strategy involved there).
There is no Counter that can reliably stop Inconsistent. In many cases, it is only temporary and it can still often kill you. You can't play around it with good prediction like other players and it comes down to simply who has the best luck. Obviously if played stupidly, even the best of luck won't work. But if there is even a modicum of at least some skill, Inconsistent can completely turn things around. It has a nasty habit of doing so, turning losing games into winning games for them. And even if it doesn't work, there is nothing to lose if they were losing anyways. But if it gets pulled off, they have everything to gain. Inconsistent is a nasty ability that either was made when Game Freak was high or was knowingly made just to screw with the players (which they have a fun time doing to like taunting Flareon with good stuff and witholding it while turning things like Ditto/Octillery/Bibarel/Glalie/etc into absolute monsters and creating things like Doryuzu).
-It relies on Luck (So what? That has never been a legitimate excuse and is the exact reasoning for a ban. Luck has nothing to do with playing skill and can even trump it, especially in these cases.)
-A "well constructed team" can play around it (What are you smoking? Reason #1 of Luck negates this since even the best teams are torn apart if luck should turn against you and Inconsistent has a VERY big chance of doing so).
-It has (some) counters like Haze/Perish Song/Taunt/Roar/Whirlwind/Clear Smog/Dragon Tail/Unaware (Yeah, Roar/Whirlwind/Dragon Tail can miss and are only temporary, as is Haze. Haze is worse since it doesn't do any damage at all and they get yet another +2 which if it is an attack boost will deal heavy damage back to you. Clear Smog users are very very few and the best one is the shroom and pretty much none of the others would ever be seen/use it like Gengar would never carry it. Perish Song can still give them enough time to beat you and switch out and unless it's the last one, only temporary. Taunt users can get attacked like Octillery Flamethrowing/Icebeaming/etc Mischievious Heart birds and Taunt users. And they could still get defenses and evasion boosts to make them really hard to kill. Plus it forces you to use obscure things like Unaware and Perish Song Murkrow which would be absolutely useless otherwise. Even then you have the advantage, forcing people to run stupid stuff and still have a higher than likely chance of winning.)
-It can strike against itself (see 1st reason. Again, so what? The likelyhood of it doing something truly bad to you is far far less than doing something bad to the opponent. And relying on the opponent's luck to be bad is not a strategy at all, it is a hope. There is no strategy involved there).
There is no Counter that can reliably stop Inconsistent. In many cases, it is only temporary and it can still often kill you. You can't play around it with good prediction like other players and it comes down to simply who has the best luck. Obviously if played stupidly, even the best of luck won't work. But if there is even a modicum of at least some skill, Inconsistent can completely turn things around. It has a nasty habit of doing so, turning losing games into winning games for them. And even if it doesn't work, there is nothing to lose if they were losing anyways. But if it gets pulled off, they have everything to gain. Inconsistent is a nasty ability that either was made when Game Freak was high or was knowingly made just to screw with the players (which they have a fun time doing to like taunting Flareon with good stuff and witholding it while turning things like Ditto/Octillery/Bibarel/Glalie/etc into absolute monsters and creating things like Doryuzu).
It may be just me or the team that I run, but I find Manaphy to be manageable in the metagame even with rain.
If you look past the "OMG +3 Tail Glow" bit, you'll see that its SpA ends up being about on par with the likes of +2 Garchomp and Doryuuzu, so relatively speaking its power level isn't anything particularly new.
While it is definitely bulky and has great typing, overwhelming it with powerful attacks seems to be the way to go, forcing it to rest. I usually have Nattorei barage it with Power Whip so that it has to choose between attacking or surviving; if it manages to beat Natty then either ScarfChomp or Sazandora manage to finish it off regardless.
I think it might be our special counterpart to Garchomp - Speed, Bulk, and power all rolled into one pokemon. Garchomp has a marginally better type combination offensively speaking, but Manaphy doesn't have any gaping weaknesses and has a kickass ability.
Ys, I've found that the best way to defeat it is to mercilessly attack it and threaten to KO. It will, as you said, have to choose between attacking or surviving.
The higher you go on the ladder, the greater the consensus is that Inconsistent is broken.
It's the shitty players that want "that chance to win based on luck," while the better players will, given the chance (which we readily give), ban this shit from the meta because they want the game to be influenced more by [their] skill.
It doesn't matter if the strategy consistently (lol) wins or not-- if it takes the game out of the players' hands, and makes it a dice roll, than it's not good for the metagame. In other words its not about "power" or "how good it is," it's about competitiveness and mechanics.
Let's make a hypothetical situation: say there was an attack that gave its user a 20% automatic chance to win the entire game, but the other 80% he would automatically lose the game.
No smart player in his right mind would use that (except as a desperation "panic" button), but it would still be banned because it would eliminate the "competitiveness" of the game.
Of all the viable ban options, there are only 4 which are able to be considered broken, and even out of those only 2 are really, really broken.
Inconsistent-This is simply unfair and makes for not only shitty games, but a shitty tier. Barring absolutely awful luck or an unwinnable matchup (like octo vs specs jolteon), the octo is going to set up, get comfy, and wreck havoc. Running boil over/protect/sub/rest makes it even deadlier, as you gain survivability with rest. I just had a 100+ turn battle where my octo stalled out a CM/recover latios and then swept the rest of the team. Seriously, it needs out.
Skymin-How broken this is depends on how you choose to play it. I've only seen 4-5 different sets out there, mainly scarf, specs, lo, and sub leech, and out of all of these, scarf is the most uber. Base 125 SpA is serious business, and with flinch hax+seed flare, this thing can seriously take down almost anything. Scarf skymin is even fast enough to outspeed dorys and kingdras if they don't run max speed, in their respective weather boost of course. On top of that, skymin isn't killed by priority that well either. Even CB scizor barely does 60-70%, which means that if it switches into an air slash its dead and if the skymin uses hidden power fire its dead. Overall a nasty beast.
Darkrai-Eh, I thought I'd be more impressed. I run a scarf skymin, so thats one possibility why darkrai doesnt threaten me at all: Skymin is able to almost completely shut down darkrai, due to that lovely 127 speed. Still, when skymin is out of the question, darkrai really only has 4 viable attacks it can use in dark pulse, focus blast, t-bolt and ice beam, and while that affords it excellent coverage, it can't run them all at the same time and none are overly impressive on their own. Dark void, while 80% sleep does rule, is prone to missing at key circumstances, and when it misses it usually goes very poorly. All this being said, I still give this a slight uber nod, simply because it does have very high base SpA, and is one of the best non set up sweepers in the game.
Deoxys/Deoxys-A - Like darkrai, these fall into the "countered by scarf skymin" which makes them far more manageable, but I'll look past that. Deoxys-A is a true powerhouse, capable of serious damage. While his paper defenses mean virtually no switch ins, this guy can run a LO set and pose a serious revenge threat everytime a pokemon is downed. A good comparison to Deoxys-A would be the grenade drop perk in Call of Duty, where upon dying you drop a grenade to kill your killer. Deoxys-A works in a similar fashion, coming in after something dies to make you regret it. While not impossible to work around, it is simply too strong for OU.
I know there are other potential suspects (Mew, Wobby, but not Manaphy. There is nothing broke about Manaphy), but in all of my battles thus far, the only one which actually changed the outcome was a Heart Swap manaphy, who stopped my octo sweep, just to reinforce that inconsistent is so broken it takes heart swap to stop it. Mew has a lot of potential, he just doesn't fit in well with the weather teams which dominate the land, and I think all the Wobby players I have played are just ignorant to his strengths, because they have been using him awfully (though teamviewer does hurt Wobby, a lot). I may or may not be in voting range, but here are my opinions.
Inconsistent-This is simply unfair and makes for not only shitty games, but a shitty tier. Barring absolutely awful luck or an unwinnable matchup (like octo vs specs jolteon), the octo is going to set up, get comfy, and wreck havoc. Running boil over/protect/sub/rest makes it even deadlier, as you gain survivability with rest. I just had a 100+ turn battle where my octo stalled out a CM/recover latios and then swept the rest of the team. Seriously, it needs out.
Skymin-How broken this is depends on how you choose to play it. I've only seen 4-5 different sets out there, mainly scarf, specs, lo, and sub leech, and out of all of these, scarf is the most uber. Base 125 SpA is serious business, and with flinch hax+seed flare, this thing can seriously take down almost anything. Scarf skymin is even fast enough to outspeed dorys and kingdras if they don't run max speed, in their respective weather boost of course. On top of that, skymin isn't killed by priority that well either. Even CB scizor barely does 60-70%, which means that if it switches into an air slash its dead and if the skymin uses hidden power fire its dead. Overall a nasty beast.
Darkrai-Eh, I thought I'd be more impressed. I run a scarf skymin, so thats one possibility why darkrai doesnt threaten me at all: Skymin is able to almost completely shut down darkrai, due to that lovely 127 speed. Still, when skymin is out of the question, darkrai really only has 4 viable attacks it can use in dark pulse, focus blast, t-bolt and ice beam, and while that affords it excellent coverage, it can't run them all at the same time and none are overly impressive on their own. Dark void, while 80% sleep does rule, is prone to missing at key circumstances, and when it misses it usually goes very poorly. All this being said, I still give this a slight uber nod, simply because it does have very high base SpA, and is one of the best non set up sweepers in the game.
Deoxys/Deoxys-A - Like darkrai, these fall into the "countered by scarf skymin" which makes them far more manageable, but I'll look past that. Deoxys-A is a true powerhouse, capable of serious damage. While his paper defenses mean virtually no switch ins, this guy can run a LO set and pose a serious revenge threat everytime a pokemon is downed. A good comparison to Deoxys-A would be the grenade drop perk in Call of Duty, where upon dying you drop a grenade to kill your killer. Deoxys-A works in a similar fashion, coming in after something dies to make you regret it. While not impossible to work around, it is simply too strong for OU.
I know there are other potential suspects (Mew, Wobby, but not Manaphy. There is nothing broke about Manaphy), but in all of my battles thus far, the only one which actually changed the outcome was a Heart Swap manaphy, who stopped my octo sweep, just to reinforce that inconsistent is so broken it takes heart swap to stop it. Mew has a lot of potential, he just doesn't fit in well with the weather teams which dominate the land, and I think all the Wobby players I have played are just ignorant to his strengths, because they have been using him awfully (though teamviewer does hurt Wobby, a lot). I may or may not be in voting range, but here are my opinions.
If this were true then why are Brightpowder, Lax Incense, Sand Veil, Snow Cloak, confusion moves, paralysis moves, attract, ALL moves with <100% accuracy, ALL moves with a chance of an added effect that isn't 0 or 100, or abilities that have a non-zero or non-100 chance of activating , etc all suspects? That is an arbitrary method of banning things and it seems like it is currently done by having a group of people pick their "pet issue" and lobbying to get it banned by saying it is "uncompetitive" rather than overpowered. Yes, it is true that the issues are often "uncompetitive" (if uncompetitive means relying on 'luck' rather than skill, although I would argue that you are using skill if you are using these "luck" techniques that are proven to be effective...) but everything else I just mentioned also relies on luck. Actually there are close to zero strategies that I have ever seen that do not rely on luck in some form (even unrelated to game mechanics such as the damage formula or critical hits).
Also note that I think inconsistent is overpowered and I had met the voting criteria, I would have voted to ban it because of that. I am more referring to that banning mentality in general, rather than any specific issue (although OHKO and evasion moves could easily apply).
I could argue about the luck factors, but Inconsistent's issue is not so much about luck as it is about "taking the game out of the player's hands."
Since Inconsistent works each turn, the issue is more along the lines of 4th Gen Tickle Wobb than it is along the lines of Double Team (though you could argue either way).
Since Inconsistent works each turn, the issue is more along the lines of 4th Gen Tickle Wobb than it is along the lines of Double Team (though you could argue either way).
Isn't any luck at all taking some part of the game out of the player's hand and putting it into the computers? In this specific game, this luck is inevitable and banning things solely because of the luck they bring opens a very ugly can of worms that can lead to (very legitimate) justification for banning basically anything in the game with the reasoning being that it isn't competitive.
I think it is more logical to take the approach that "in the long run, luck is neutral" and to ban things based on their power and not other, less well-defined factors of "competitiveness."
I think it is more logical to take the approach that "in the long run, luck is neutral" and to ban things based on their power and not other, less well-defined factors of "competitiveness."
Who is gonna let that Octillery stay in on a Water Absorb/Storm Drain Pokémon? And what is that Pokémon (mostly Vaporeon or Suicune) doing in return, if you decide to stay in? And why don't you just run Energy Ball with Boiling Water? And if you don't, if a Suicune comes in to stop your fun you just switch to a counter or check which can handle a +1 Suicune.
Anyone with sense will have a reliable way for Octillery to beat bulky Water types, as they're prime setup targets for him. Those famed lategame Inconsistent sweeps aren't going to happen if all you're packing is a Water move. Even if Vaporeon can't deal significant damage to you, it can PP stall you, having walled your entire moveset.
Using Water as your sole attacking type is just a bad idea in general these days. Don't do it lol.
As you can see, most methods of preventing the Inconsistent user from setting up are impractical. Your only real chance is hoping the Inconsistent user makes a crippling mistake, such as bad prediction, misjudging an opportunity to set up, or a combination of strategies that would require an entire metagame's worth of effort to prevent. In a theoretical sense, the player has no real control over the battle and very little options to prevent the Inconsistent user from setting up in the context of various metagame-viable strategies.
Using Water as your sole attacking type is just a bad idea in general these days. Don't do it lol.
What you are describing, my friend, is a tautological extreme. Certain risk management techniques can be incorporated into gameplay to make certain degrees of hax surmountable. In the case of Inconsistent, the majority of these techniques are either temporary or impractical. Little By Little and Sacred Sword can be used to hit through defensive boosts, but have limited distribution and do not cancel offensive or speed boosts. Roar and Whirlwind can phaze them, but have no effect if it's the last Pokemon, not to mention the Pokemon using it can be KOed before it uses the move. Taunt prevents subbing, and Protect, but neither attacks nor boosts. Encore only lasts three turns and does not break an active Substitute.
As you can see, most methods of preventing the Inconsistent user from setting up are impractical. Your only real chance is hoping the Inconsistent user makes a crippling mistake, such as bad prediction, misjudging an opportunity to set up, or a combination of strategies that would require an entire metagame's worth of effort to prevent. In a theoretical sense, the player has no real control over the battle and very little options to prevent the Inconsistent user from setting up in the context of various metagame-viable strategies.
Yeah, so go ahead and read SJCrew's post (re-reading a few times so it'll sink in), and realize that Inconsistent doesn't take SOME of the battle out of the player's hands . . .
It takes ALL of the battle out of the player's hands (essentially).
Just like 4th gen tickle wobb :D
Honestly, how would you feel if a mod came into a battle in the middle of a game and said, "Alright, Imma flip a coin, and whoever gets it, wins the game." Sure the odds are "fair" but would you agree that it's good for competitive pokemon? Fuck no. That is essentially the issue with Inconsistent.
It takes ALL of the battle out of the player's hands (essentially).
Just like 4th gen tickle wobb :D
Honestly, how would you feel if a mod came into a battle in the middle of a game and said, "Alright, Imma flip a coin, and whoever gets it, wins the game." Sure the odds are "fair" but would you agree that it's good for competitive pokemon? Fuck no. That is essentially the issue with Inconsistent.
there is only so much luck a healthy meta can with stand; chomp for example was too much last gen due 2 veil among other things, but w/ the power influx of this gen it isn't as horrible to have an extra miss every now + again. inconsistant u put the game in a state where it behaves like Russian roulette + where the game is loaded in favor of the inconsistant user.
Edit: i know yes B4 any1 complains yes i understand chomp can still be a head-ache w/ veil if it kicks in @ the wrong time.
Edit: i know yes B4 any1 complains yes i understand chomp can still be a head-ache w/ veil if it kicks in @ the wrong time.
And the thing is, Inconsistent activates for certain every turn. EVERY TURN. Bright Powder/Quick Claw/Scope Lens may be annoying, very annoying, but they aren't guaranteed EVERY turn. The boosts are random, but they will always be +2. +2 for NOTHING. Who gives +2 for not doing anything but Subbing and Protecting? -1 in random stats rarely balance it out at all and if they get a +2 in the minus stat, they will still be getting a boost unless it balances out but they will often have other stats elsewhere.
Relying on the opponent's bad luck is not a strategy at countering it, it is a hope and one that is dangerous to make since it is also likely they will sweep you. There isn't really much of anything you could do about it if the luck is against you. Played well (and not letting their Inconsistent users die to stupid things) and it will be horrible. And even if wrong, they will still wall the f-out of you in a stall match that will go on and on and on and last forever. Inconsistent users have won using Struggle and have outstalled things like Calm Mind Latios, Zapdos, etc using moves they were weak on. WEAK ON. Evasion boosts are a pain but in addition it is auto rock polish, swords dance, iron defense, nasty plot, amnesia, double team, and something (what gives +2 accuracy?). You can't just deal with evasison because it could get an attack or defense or speed boost. You can't just attack because it could get an evasion boost or a defensive boost made it just to weak. You can't Taunt because it could have gotten a speed boost or just attacked you (Icebeam/Flamethrower for Roasting Erufuun and Genies who Taunt).
And seriously, even without the Luck, getting +2s for free every round is broken. In any game that would be broken. Because the more +2s you get, the more likely it is to get something good. -1 is barely a cost 95+% of the time (rather randomly picked number but it seems like it).
Relying on the opponent's bad luck is not a strategy at countering it, it is a hope and one that is dangerous to make since it is also likely they will sweep you. There isn't really much of anything you could do about it if the luck is against you. Played well (and not letting their Inconsistent users die to stupid things) and it will be horrible. And even if wrong, they will still wall the f-out of you in a stall match that will go on and on and on and last forever. Inconsistent users have won using Struggle and have outstalled things like Calm Mind Latios, Zapdos, etc using moves they were weak on. WEAK ON. Evasion boosts are a pain but in addition it is auto rock polish, swords dance, iron defense, nasty plot, amnesia, double team, and something (what gives +2 accuracy?). You can't just deal with evasison because it could get an attack or defense or speed boost. You can't just attack because it could get an evasion boost or a defensive boost made it just to weak. You can't Taunt because it could have gotten a speed boost or just attacked you (Icebeam/Flamethrower for Roasting Erufuun and Genies who Taunt).
And seriously, even without the Luck, getting +2s for free every round is broken. In any game that would be broken. Because the more +2s you get, the more likely it is to get something good. -1 is barely a cost 95+% of the time (rather randomly picked number but it seems like it).
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