If you have to rely on an attack's accuracy to "counter" then there's something wrong.
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?
- Thread starter Philip7086
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If you have to rely on an attack's accuracy to "counter" then there's something wrong.
*Cough*Brightpowder=no counters*cough*
are you finished?
is this all you have to say?
'cause you started saying something serious and now the only thing that you are telling me is that nattorei isn't a counter to kingdra 'cause leech seed has 90% accuracy?
I see that you are far beyond the limit of not understanding...if that's what you get from my sayings fine...
i think that the other 10000 readers understood what i wrote and know well how well a nattorei can handle kingdra...you can just wonder how it does so when leech seed has only 90% accuracy...
and to answer to your saying:
you don't have to rely on leech seed.you just use it once,or even twice if it misses once(you have enough life after protecting between turns for leftovers to take 3 hydro pumps,one to switch,one when leech seed misses and another one before the second leech seed)while the opponent wants his hydro pump to hit you 4 times in a row(nattorei isn't 3hkoed with protect and leech seed).ok my friend if you do the maths nattorei will lose to kingdra 1 every 200 matches(not exaxtly just sayin').so here we go...nattorei doesn't counter kingdra anymore.the same can be said for every wall out there that has the defences to take two hits from the poke that it must counter but not 3...so because the opponent has a chance to strike a critical ur wall doesn't counter that poke anymore...think before you speak and make usefull posts pls...
Actually,I was referring to Kingdra's Hydro Pump. Not Leech Seed.
even worse...i already proved to you that nattorei can wall even a kingdra whos hydro pumps always land with leech seed and protect...even if all the hits landed nattorei would still win...!
So...only Sassy 252 HP/252 Sp.def Natt has a chance to win?
How does it fare against Physical DD Kingdra?
Ignoring the fact that you really didn't prove anything.
So, I read this argument for three pages and I could not find why this is relevent to the testing period. If we are trying to find counters to Kingdra, the bulky water absorbers like Lapras who can hit back with a dragon pulse work great.
If not, let's just agree that it is hard for a Nattorei to counter a specs Kingdra.
If not, let's just agree that it is hard for a Nattorei to counter a specs Kingdra.
Im p sure that a sassy 252/252 natt can do just fine against a kingdra waterfall/outrage. Right now you are the one not proving anything. And I don't get why you guys keep going at this especially when swift swim+drizzle is banned. Then again I guess people like using specs attacks from slow pokemon.
Alexwolf is right, nattorei counters all kingdra in the rain. Burungeru is a better switch into kingdra though, as it can't be worn down by hitting it and then switching out. It can taunt and burn physical variants too. Additionally, it doesn't have to worry about pursuit because Ttar isn't used on rain. It admittedly sucks that manaphy shits on burungeru though, but a manaphy at +0 isn't hard to switch into. =/
Doesn't all of this theorymoning only work in, well, theory? Still, sure we proved that Specs Kingdra can do 44% to a specially defensive Nattorei, but how is that going to really help much? Chances are someone will whittle it down somewhat so that Kingdra can Hydro Pump the metal plant and 2HKO in such a case after it takes a prior hit from just about anything.
Not everything works as people intend. Crits happen, plans destabilize. Perhaps Nattorei took some heavy damage trying to stop everything else on their team. Theorymoning is nice, but it just doesn't work perfectly in practice. And besides, as the posters above me had said, Jellicent does a better job against it.
Not everything works as people intend. Crits happen, plans destabilize. Perhaps Nattorei took some heavy damage trying to stop everything else on their team. Theorymoning is nice, but it just doesn't work perfectly in practice. And besides, as the posters above me had said, Jellicent does a better job against it.
Let's do the calculations on this. I'm gonna ignore crits, because a crit at any stage will obviously kill Nattorei (and because it's WICKED hard to calculate for all those possibilities). I'll put in some calculations for crits at the end.
Turn 1: Nattorei switches in, Kingdra uses Hydro Pump (now at 7 PP).
Nattorei has a 20% chance of taking no damage and an 80% chance of taking 39% damage. Leftovers heals to 100%/67%, respectively.
Turn 2: Nattorei Protects. It goes to 100%/73%. Hydro Pump is now at 6 PP.
Turn 3, part 1. Kingdra uses Hydro Pump. PP is now 5.
Nattorei has a 4% chance of taking no damage both turns (100% health), a 16% chance of taking damage on the first turn but not the second (73%), a 16% chance of taking damage on the second turn but not the first (61%), and a 64% chance of taking normal damage on both turns (34%). Note that Leftovers are not accounted for.
Turn 3, part 2. Nattorei uses Leech Seed, with a 90% chance of hitting and a heal rate of 36 HP, or 10% of Nattorei's health. Now, we're gonna hit a TON of possibilities here (that I don't want to list out), so I'll keep it simple. There's a 36% chance of Hydro Pump missing at least once, so there's a 32.4% chance of Kingdra getting next to no chance of winning (misses at least once, Leech Seed hits) and a 3.6% chance that Nattorei needs to protect another turn and try again, setting the odds even further against Kingdra (another 20% chance for Hydro Pump to miss). There's a 64% chance of Kingdra hitting twice, ending with a 57.6% chance that Nattorei will finish with 50% health. There's only slightly over a 6.4% chance that Kingdra will win without a crit.
Now, let's account for crits. Let's assume that crit=auto kill (it doesn't, Protect can work magic). There's a 17.6% chance that Kingdra will crit at least once in three HITS, so if we multiply .576 by .176 we get an additional 10.1% chance that Kingdra will beat Nattorei. That's a 16.5% chance to win, a 41% chance to lose but hit Nattorei hard, and a 32.4% chance of it losing badly (numbers were rounded, so they won't add up perfectly). This means that the Kingdra user has to either pray for no misses and Leech Seed to miss or for a crit. That's not a good situation for a wallbreaker. I'd say that Nattorei is a good counter to Kingdra. Kefka, with all due respect, I'd advise you not gamble in the future.
Now, calculations aside, there's a few other considerations. First, prior damage to Nattorei. The slightest amount can screw up this counter royally. However, the second point is that the Nattorei user can switch it in to take a single attack from Kingdra and then stay in or switch to a Pokemon which is Water-immune (or close to it, like another Kingdra), depending on which move Kingdra uses. Finally, it should be remembered that none of this actually matters all that much in terms of balance. A counter does not mean a Pokemon should not be uber. As everyone knows, standard Specs Kyogre is completely walled by Shedinja, but that doesn't mean that Kyogre should be let into OU. All this should be taken to mean is that if you're having trouble with Rain teams, Nattorei is a strong option to consider.
Turn 1: Nattorei switches in, Kingdra uses Hydro Pump (now at 7 PP).
Nattorei has a 20% chance of taking no damage and an 80% chance of taking 39% damage. Leftovers heals to 100%/67%, respectively.
Turn 2: Nattorei Protects. It goes to 100%/73%. Hydro Pump is now at 6 PP.
Turn 3, part 1. Kingdra uses Hydro Pump. PP is now 5.
Nattorei has a 4% chance of taking no damage both turns (100% health), a 16% chance of taking damage on the first turn but not the second (73%), a 16% chance of taking damage on the second turn but not the first (61%), and a 64% chance of taking normal damage on both turns (34%). Note that Leftovers are not accounted for.
Turn 3, part 2. Nattorei uses Leech Seed, with a 90% chance of hitting and a heal rate of 36 HP, or 10% of Nattorei's health. Now, we're gonna hit a TON of possibilities here (that I don't want to list out), so I'll keep it simple. There's a 36% chance of Hydro Pump missing at least once, so there's a 32.4% chance of Kingdra getting next to no chance of winning (misses at least once, Leech Seed hits) and a 3.6% chance that Nattorei needs to protect another turn and try again, setting the odds even further against Kingdra (another 20% chance for Hydro Pump to miss). There's a 64% chance of Kingdra hitting twice, ending with a 57.6% chance that Nattorei will finish with 50% health. There's only slightly over a 6.4% chance that Kingdra will win without a crit.
Now, let's account for crits. Let's assume that crit=auto kill (it doesn't, Protect can work magic). There's a 17.6% chance that Kingdra will crit at least once in three HITS, so if we multiply .576 by .176 we get an additional 10.1% chance that Kingdra will beat Nattorei. That's a 16.5% chance to win, a 41% chance to lose but hit Nattorei hard, and a 32.4% chance of it losing badly (numbers were rounded, so they won't add up perfectly). This means that the Kingdra user has to either pray for no misses and Leech Seed to miss or for a crit. That's not a good situation for a wallbreaker. I'd say that Nattorei is a good counter to Kingdra. Kefka, with all due respect, I'd advise you not gamble in the future.
Now, calculations aside, there's a few other considerations. First, prior damage to Nattorei. The slightest amount can screw up this counter royally. However, the second point is that the Nattorei user can switch it in to take a single attack from Kingdra and then stay in or switch to a Pokemon which is Water-immune (or close to it, like another Kingdra), depending on which move Kingdra uses. Finally, it should be remembered that none of this actually matters all that much in terms of balance. A counter does not mean a Pokemon should not be uber. As everyone knows, standard Specs Kyogre is completely walled by Shedinja, but that doesn't mean that Kyogre should be let into OU. All this should be taken to mean is that if you're having trouble with Rain teams, Nattorei is a strong option to consider.
You`re assuming hydro pump never misses (unlikely). Also, Natt could t-wave it to hope for para hax, and if it dies another poke could come in to easily revenge it. Also, i kingdra is weakened, power whip could kill it. Natt might not kill it itself, but it does make it really easy for another pokemon to come in and kill it with relatively no difficulty.
Just wanted to point out that empoleon actually resists all the common moves that kingdra carries. Maybe we should start using defensive sets to counter him.
And please tell us what the hell can Empoleon do to actually do something to Kingdra besides Toxic?
Wow, rude much?? Anyways, he can phaze him out with yawn, and then sub up in his face as he switches out. How about that??
Has been brought up countless times before. Kingdra did for me about 30% to Emp with LO Surf, so Specs Hydro would hurt a lot more. With Toxic Spikes and Protect it could certainly be viable, though.
And Kingdra also resists Empoleon's STABs. If Empoleon had Recover and/or Water Absorb, then maybe it could stall Kingdra out. But...
Yeah, unless you're using Recover/Dragon Pulse Empoleon, Kingdra can just break through you with Hydro Pump
Sounds decent actually. Specially defensive with lefties, boiling water, hp dragon, rest and sleep talk. You could try setting up agility subpetaya, but I'm not sure how good it'd be against a rain team...
Hahaha, there are people in the ferrothorn thread that say protect + leech seed isn't good enough to be the standard.
Hahaha, there are people in the ferrothorn thread that say protect + leech seed isn't good enough to be the standard.
natts isnt a reliable specdra counter in my experience
Now about the new vote, go the fuck away dory ! no one want you
Well seeing how many people complain why dory isnt banned last round... yeah
As of HP dragon Empoleon ? well ratehr than HP dragon i rather use other things he gets from his awesome movepool such as GKnot, Ice beam, Yawn, Knock off, Roar ummm yeah his movepool in support department is very good and abusing it > HP dragon seriously
Now about the new vote, go the fuck away dory ! no one want you
Well seeing how many people complain why dory isnt banned last round... yeah
As of HP dragon Empoleon ? well ratehr than HP dragon i rather use other things he gets from his awesome movepool such as GKnot, Ice beam, Yawn, Knock off, Roar ummm yeah his movepool in support department is very good and abusing it > HP dragon seriously
A 70 BP unstabbed SE move from 111 base SpA will do absolute crap to Kingdra
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