np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

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ginganinja

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Back in Gen 4 (thus no Manaphy) I was able to stall out something insane like 4 bouts of 8 Turn rain just using my normal OU team (and no weather changer either). Stalling out rain is do-able however infinite rain prevents that since unless you have a weather changer that Rain will be staying around for pretty much the whole battle
 
It only lasts 4 turns and you need very slow mons.
If your Trick Roomers are Taunted,or killed. Your whole team is dead weight.
Unlike in Rain Dance teams,where you at least stand a chance without rain.
Yes, that's if you're silly enough to put 5 trick room sweepers + 1 trick room user.

On the other hand, if you actually put some thought into team building, where you have 2-3 TR setup guys, 1-2 TR sweepers, and ~2 pokes just for when Trick Room isn't up...

Not to mention, TR setup guys now have the option of Mental Herb to beat Taunters.
 
Kefka the god of magic, trick room is hardly gimmicky.

At the top of the ladder you see a lot of TR/Shadow Ball/Psychic/Focus blast Magic Guard LO Rankurusu (or other variants, like CM lefties recover TR focus blast & psychic), and if they come in on a pokemon that doesn't OHKO it they can easily sweep 3 Pokémon lategame, totally ignoring weather boosts the opponent may receive.

TR Bronzong can also be bothering.

Will repeat myself on that point too, but rain teams don't have an advantage against sand teams.
 
Kefka, Trick Room is not gimmicky at all. Trick Room Rankurusu and Trick Room Bronzong both shit all over the entire metagame and can deal serious damage to pretty much everything they face except for physical walls for Bronzong and special walls for Rankurusu. I've swept many teams with Trick Room Rankurusu or damaged them enough for something else on my team to clean up the rest of the team.
 

cosmicexplorer

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Then why are they broken now? What changed on that 9th turn that means they're broken? Nothing has, they're just piss-easier to use. Being hard to use doesn't mean they weren't broken.

Furthermore, what does 4th gen and before have to do with 5th gen? Skymin's ban in 4th gen was a controversy. This gen it was unanimous. Don't make assumptions because of previous generations.
Why do you think that Swift Swimmers without Drizzle are broken? They only have 5 or 6 turns to actually sweep, while the opposing team can setup or switch in whatever they want before it sets up, and if they switch in a Nattorei or Empoleon, or Blissey if the pokemon's exclusively special, the entire strategy is ruined, as well as if any of the pokemon is KOed. Opposing weather starters, as well as bulky waters, check it effectively and can easily stall out the rain turns, outside of which Swift Swimmers are decidedly mediocre. Rain is incredibly difficult to use without Drizzle; Swift Swim is in no way broken without it. Drizzle is the problem, not Swift Swim.
 
No, not at all. Because banning Swift Swim will completely and almost utterly make rain useless as compared to banning Drizzle.I don't see why you couldn't tech Rain Dance as a move, I mean, people are using things like HAIL on Tentacruel, Vaporeon, Burungeru, and other weird things to stop Rain/Sun/Sand, it is far easier to throw Rain Dance on and it has so many users that could set up at least a temporary rain that actually can make use of it. And Sand has LANDLOS, DORYUZU, AND GARCHOMP. How would that at all make Rain equivalent? Rain would lose all it's best Pokemon (Manaphy is probably going as well since it is broken with or without permanent rain, just less so without the permanent). People don't use Rain to abuse Thunder or Gale, it's just a bonus you can and some Rain Set uppers get stab as well on those (Tornelos, Zapdos, etc). Those are mainly for other Swift Swimmers and water pokes that wall your super stab water moves. Without Swift Swim, you take away the utility of Kingdra, Kabutops, Ludicolo, and other pokemon who would never see the light of Day in OU (or even UU some of them) without Swift Swim. They are not broken of themselves without Rain and permanent Rain is what made them broken, not Swift Swim. Swift Swim is what makes them good and purposeful, permanent rain is what breaks them.

The other pokes that could use it...don't need the weather to be good. Starmie, Kerudio, Zapdos don't NEED weather to be good. It'll make them even more insanely powerful (especially Kerudio) but they can still be potentially outrun and you wouldn't use a spot for Politoad (despite the awesomeness of double stab Hydro Pump) just for them.

Swift Swim has never been the problem, it was just a very good ability. It's good enough to had been used previously to base teams around setting it up, but obviously nowhere near broken when it was on a time limited basis. And as people said, the difference is the time it takes to set up Rain Dance as compared to getting an AUTOMATIC PERMANENT (unless another weather changer/move user is used) rain. Rain Dance can be Taunted, Stalled out, etc. It was balanced in getting 8 turns as you had to then give up a useful item slot or have only a short 5 turn limit to use it (which is what keeps Trick Room and things down. Imagine the horror of an auto-permanent Trick Room that can't be cleared by weather. They'd have to make some sort of normalizing move and ability). And it "could" be stalled out with difficulty, but it was possible. Having to continuously set it up was another weakness. But Drizzle changed everything. Now you have to lose momentum carrying your own weather changing move (which you don't usually get any advantage of since most of the time it has to be Hail or Sand since you definitely don't want to give further advantage to Rain/Sun teams facing you) and are on the defensive and it comes down to killing the auto-weather and then using a move to change it. It pretty much forces either a weather team of your own or a complete overcentralization around weather. Whether (hah) weather is broken or not, it is very difficult and forces you to use weather or obscure things to even hope to counter.

And I am all for NORMAL weather teams. You know, the ones that actually have to use a weather move to set up. All auto-weather abilities should be banned. This would allow you to keep weather teams and normal teams and keeps things that aren't broken without weather and monsters in weather good, but not so clearly domineering and overpowering that people are seriously considering banning them to only Uber (not they can't be used there but they themselves without permanent rain are nowhere remotely close to uber unlike Darkrai, Shaymin-S, Deoxys, Inconsitent were last time) which is a disservice to them and tiering. It's not Kingdra, Kabutops, and Ludicolo who are broken. It's not even them with a limited Swift Swim that are so overpoweringly broken. Very strong and useful, yes, but not to the degree seen here. No, it is clear that it is the addition of Drizzle that changed everything. You'd also see even more variety of teams since you now need slightly more support but things like Venasaur and Kingdra and certain others would be worth setting up Sunny Day and Rain Dance for. Kingdra is notorious of double Dancing before and is amazing at it.

And it's good seeing Venasaur, Charizard, Kingdra, Ludicolo, Victreebell, Shiftry, etc in OU. Not in their permanent weather (they're so horrible then that things like Kingdra and Venasaur are being considered Uber and if Kingdra goes, there is no doubt Venasaur will as well as Venasaur is the sun's Kingdra but even arguably better) where they are broken. It actually would be fun and awesome with actual set up weather as they are still definitely threatening and good enough then but not to the point of "omg ban it!" which some people would rather do then the obvious problem of permanent weather. Banning speed abilities kills many useable pokes that are completely legit but aren't because of permanent weather. Without permanent weather, you could still have weather and fun strategies, and not have to run weather or tear your hair out trying to fight weather. Like Trick Room and other fun things but not to the point of seeing it EVERYWHERE.

Rain Stall is still viable without Drizzle. You'll just have to set up Rain Dance and why you would play that over Swift Swim I don't know. But it is possible and Swift Swim is definitely not the problem, Drizzle is. But banning Swift Swim (and other abilities by extension like Chlorophyll and Sand Throw because you have to because it is ridiculous and hypocritical to only target Swift Swim then) kills a usage of pokes and would make things that would have at least some purpose in OU useless. You kill FAR more useable pokes and strategies preserving a minor and lesser used (no matter how you feel about it) one. And it is still useable, just weakened without permanent weather while without Swift Swim/Chlorophyll/Sand Throw, there are many more pokemon that are not.

Let's be honest here. Tyranitar, Garchomp, Landlos etc don't need Sand. It just benefits and adds something extra. But they are ferociously strong with or without. Banning Sand Stream is probably the least necessary of auto-weather but Sand would be even more dominant as a weather without rain or sun and you might as well. Auto-Sand also is annoying to set up weather teams and is the real problem they were lesser used and cuts their utility. Hail as the only auto-weather might be insane (then again if Hail was the only weather, all the other set up weathers if they manage to sneak in a weather move could wreck it but...) with Kyurem and the like. And Drizzle can not leave without Drought as the only thing really holding Drought back from being as good if not better than Rain is the inducer is less useful than Drizzle's. Without Drizzle, Drought would take its place and be just as terrifying and maybe more so with Venasaur, Heatran, Shandera, Tangrowth, Victreebell, Charizard, Mebjuka, etc over Kingdra, Ludicolo, Kabutops. And a lot of those are just as strong if not stronger than many Swift Swimmers with more surviveability.

The game is FAR more diverse without auto-weather than with. Imagine it without Auto-Sand/Rain/Sun/Hail. You'd have way more options, Sand would no longer be a requirement and therefore not a repeat of Gen4. Tyranitar/Garchomp/Landlos/Gliscor/Terakion have uses far outside Sand teams and sand isn't a requirement for them although it could be useful to run Sandstorm (yay, it would be a viable move then without auto sand) to counter other set up weathers. But they are phenomenal pokemon with or without sand. Extremely speedy pokes will be within normal natural bounds, either requiring an Agility, Scarf, or speed boost to go outside and it is actually possibly to run other things. Weather will actually become even more viable considering the number of set up users that they'd never do with auto weather and will be an awesome but fair strategy, unlike the monstrousity it is now. Weather hower won't be required to win and it is far more open to running your favorite pokes since you don't have to worry about needing to have a weather counter or you lose, period. Teams would look less the same and it is just a more fun game. Automatic weather is not healthy for an open metagame (it's fine for Ubers since that is completely different and they compensate for having overbalances in everything that are far beyond the norm of OU or less pokes in stats, power, move options).
I´ve explained you before why i think that it isn´t a good idea, with the only use of moves we only will make the weather teams harder to stop because without auto-weather pokemons for stopping the weather of the team of the opponent it will be even harder (i know the limit of 8 turns and everything but you can make many holes in the opponent team in just 8 turns), and you can´t compare 4th gen with 5th gen, also, remember that all the SwiftSwimmers have other abilities, so they will not be uber if they don´t have SwiftSwim, if SwiftSwim is banned, Rain will be useful but not broken (i´ve explained about the usage of Politoed even without SwiftSwim abusers in my other comments, Do you remember it?).

Every time I hear this argument, it makes me want to cry. Sand Stream was prfectly allowable in gen 4, and all that has been added are Doryuuzu and Landlos which will likely be banned shortly. Also, Sun teams are very easy to counter without using Rain. The idea that all the weathers are intertwined is absurd and untrue. Banning Drizzle will simply un-break rain offense. That is it.
SandStream in 4th is different than SandStream in 5th gen, remember that it is a new gen (for much that you want to make it a 4th gen 2.0), Doryuuzu and Landlos are far from being banned (and for now i have no problem with them, the problem is that if Shandera is released it is able to defeat many of the counters of Doryuuzu and it can make a good use of sun too, only rain can balance the metagame against it, and not necessarily with SwiftSwim), if Drizzle is baned, Sun teams (with Chlorophyll) can be even harder to defeat than Drizzle with SwiftSwim now, things like Venusaur or Doredia can put you to sleep, paralize, etc and them have more synergy with Ninetales than the SwiftSwimmers with Politoed, and really if in 4th gen. the rain dance teams hadn´t opportunity against SS, if we ban Drizzle now we are doing something more than just un-breaking rain offense, IMO the best solution is baning the things that unbalance the speed tiers (that is the main problem of the actual metagame) and nothing more.

Then, we have many options for the actual metagame, and IMO it will occurs with each one:
-Ban SwiftSwim and similar abilities (Chlorophyll and Sandthrow) and leave the auto-weather in OU, it will make an early balanced metagame with some things that make the difference between the 4th gen OU and the 5th gen OU.
-Ban Drizzle and maintain every other thing (including Sandthrow, Chlorophyll and Shandera) in the OU metagame, it will make an unbalanced metagame where Doryuzuu and Chlorophyllers sweep everything and if Shandera is released it can clean-up their counters making it more unbalanced.
-Ban Drizzle and every other thing that can be problematic in the future (including Sandthrow, Chlorophyll and Shandera), leaving just Sandstorm, it will make an 4th gen OU 2.0.
-Ban all the weathers with SS included, that i have explained before what i think about it...

PS. Drizzle isn´t broken, SwiftSwim isn´t broken, Drizzle+SwiftSwim IS broken...
 

TheValkyries

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Why do you think that Swift Swimmers without Drizzle are broken? They only have 5 or 6 turns to actually sweep, while the opposing team can setup or switch in whatever they want before it sets up, and if they switch in a Nattorei or Empoleon, or Blissey if the pokemon's exclusively special, the entire strategy is ruined, as well as if any of the pokemon is KOed. Opposing weather starters, as well as bulky waters, check it effectively and can easily stall out the rain turns, outside of which Swift Swimmers are decidedly mediocre. Rain is incredibly difficult to use without Drizzle; Swift Swim is in no way broken without it. Drizzle is the problem, not Swift Swim.
If Blissey can stop them cold for 8 turns, why isn't she stopping them indefinitely? Blissey gets nailed by Kabutops, who at +2 Low Kicks Nattorei to death. Ludicolo Focus Blast also handles Nattorei. And I've only seen one Empoleon in all of my experience as a 5th gen player. Maybe you see them all the time, but that check is far and few between and even then Ludicolo's Focus Blast and Kabutops Low Kick still hit it for a ton. If stalling for 8 turns is allegedly easy, why can't we stall out rain indefinitely? Drizzle without those Swift Swimmers is even more mediocre. The problem is we look for the convenient ban rather than the correct one. Ban what's broken and no more. Banning either Drizzle or Swift Swim is excessive.
 
It only lasts 4 turns and you need very slow mons.
If your Trick Roomers are Taunted,or killed. Your whole team is dead weight.
Unlike in Rain Dance teams,where you at least stand a chance without rain.
Umm you don't even need very slow mons your confused son.
Teams with even 1 trick room user can put this metagame into a situation.
 
Outside of countering rain,you kinda do.
What?

OTR Bronzong/Rankurusu are package-deals; they don't need any particular support from the other 5 members of the team, since they can come in when Trick Room's not up, set up Trick Room, AND abuse Trick Room, all as just one pokemon.

With those two, you don't really need any dedication to TR from the rest of the team to work.
 
Trick Room Rankurusu and Bronzong are used as solitary sweepers that completely screw over the metagame and fire off powerful attacks. You don't need to base your entire team around Trick Room to use them you dumbass.
Guess I'm just biased against TR since it screwed me over a crapton of times before I started playing on PO >.>
 
Outside of countering rain,you kinda do.
You really don't know what your talking about.

TR is an anti-metagame strategy, it's not exclusive to countering any specific weather at all.
Latios, scarf pokemon, swift swim, chlorophyll. Trick room has a lot of things it puts pressure on.
Thsoe 4 turns are enough when fast pokemon, typically frail, are suddenly at your mercy.

Problem with TR is really that every weather can also use TR.
The turn off set means less for certain pokemon when they use it just like they would agility, SD, or any other boosting move, it just comes naturally
 
Nintendo sucks.
If I am Nintendo I would like to set Swift Swim 50% speed buff as well as other similar abilities, so that it won't be so broken.

Anyway, I prefer to ban Shandera, because too many pokemon are useless because of that.
 
Nintendo sucks.
If I am Nintendo I would like to set Swift Swim 50% speed buff as well as other similar abilities, so that it won't be so broken.

Anyway, I prefer to ban Shandera, because too many pokemon are useless because of that.
Shadow Tag Shandera doesn't exist yet.
Can't ban what doesn't exist.

Btw,It's GameFreak that makes the game.
 

DetroitLolcat

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Look. Let's look back to Gen 4. Auto-Sun and Auto-Rain were found to be broken (yes, this was tested. Not just on Kyogre and Groudon.). Back then, there was no Shell Break, no +2 in both Growth, no DrizzleToad and Droughttales, but it was still broken. Right mow, Rain is too dominant. Gorebyss can go +2 +2 +4 (speed with SS) in one turn. That's 892 Speed, 408 Attack, and 654 Special Attack with a Speed boosting nature. Not to mention it gets DOUBLE STAB which is MORE than a +2 boost on its Water attacks. It can hit with Hidden Power to fry Water Absorbers, and have fun taking 37.5% on the switch if you accidentally let Nattorei get some Spikes up, which it will since rain kills its 4x fire weakness into a manageable 2x. Okay, you pulled off a miracle and actually killed the Rain Sweeper. Now do it again with the secondary Rain sweeper. And possibly a third. And make sure that Politoed dies too, as it's a veritable Rain Sweeper. And what if the team has Latios? You want to eat STAB Surfs (with Rain) AND Draco Meteors off of over 500 SpA with Choice Specs? Nattorei's the only thing switching into that, and it'll get eaten alive by repeated beatings by other Rain sweepers.

Sun, on the other hand, is just really good. The Growth boost is what I think makes it a little too good. I'm not sure if its broken or not, but with Chlorophyll and one +2 Growth boost, Venusaur's packing 568 speed, 598 Special Attack, and 402 Attack with 4/252/252 +Speed. However, there are a lot fewer Sun Sweepers (read: Charizard) compared to rain sweepers, so I'm not sure if its broken.

Sand is good too. Doryuuzu and Chomp are kicking ass and spitting on the corpses this gen. However, Chomp's manageable, just really good. Doryuuzu might need the boot, I'm not sure, but sand is an unbroken force here.

And to everyone whining about "double standards" in the banning process, can you tell me how a double standard is bad here? I mean, look at fourth gen. Was sand broken? No. But not banning it created a weather double standard and nobody complained. Same with this Gen. Every Pokemon, ability, item, and effect is different. We wouldn't ban Caterpie along with Arceus because they're both pokemon, would we?
 
I´ve explained you before why i think that it isn´t a good idea, with the only use of moves we only will make the weather teams harder to stop because without auto-weather pokemons for stopping the weather of the team of the opponent it will be even harder (i know the limit of 8 turns and everything but you can make many holes in the opponent team in just 8 turns), and you can´t compare 4th gen with 5th gen, also, remember that all the SwiftSwimmers have other abilities, so they will not be uber if they don´t have SwiftSwim, if SwiftSwim is banned, Rain will be useful but not broken (i´ve explained about the usage of Politoed even without SwiftSwim abusers in my other comments, Do you remember it?).



SandStream in 4th is different than SandStream in 5th gen, remember that it is a new gen (for much that you want to make it a 4th gen 2.0), Doryuuzu and Landlos are far from being banned (and for now i have no problem with them, the problem is that if Shandera is released it is able to defeat many of the counters of Doryuuzu and it can make a good use of sun too, only rain can balance the metagame against it, and not necessarily with SwiftSwim), if Drizzle is baned, Sun teams (with Chlorophyll) can be even harder to defeat than Drizzle with SwiftSwim now, things like Venusaur or Doredia can put you to sleep, paralize, etc and them have more synergy with Ninetales than the SwiftSwimmers with Politoed, and really if in 4th gen. the rain dance teams hadn´t opportunity against SS, if we ban Drizzle now we are doing something more than just un-breaking rain offense, IMO the best solution is baning the things that unbalance the speed tiers (that is the main problem of the actual metagame) and nothing more.

Then, we have many options for the actual metagame, and IMO it will occurs with each one:
-Ban SwiftSwim and similar abilities (Chlorophyll and Sandthrow) and leave the auto-weather in OU, it will make an early balanced metagame with some things that make the difference between the 4th gen OU and the 5th gen OU.
-Ban Drizzle and maintain every other thing (including Sandthrow, Chlorophyll and Shandera) in the OU metagame, it will make an unbalanced metagame where Doryuzuu and Chlorophyllers sweep everything and if Shandera is released it can clean-up their counters making it more unbalanced.
-Ban Drizzle and every other thing that can be problematic in the future (including Sandthrow, Chlorophyll and Shandera), leaving just Sandstorm, it will make an 4th gen OU 2.0.
-Ban all the weathers with SS included, that i have explained before what i think about it...

PS. Drizzle isn´t broken, SwiftSwim isn´t broken, Drizzle+SwiftSwim IS broken...
Sun is a joke. Especially when it's set-upper is frail and terrible. Also, Doryuuzu will likely soon be banned, as right now non-skilled players are able to vote because of the easily-abused meta. Also, Landlos is incredible, and has simply gone under the radar
 
Sun is a joke. Especially when it's set-upper is frail and terrible. Also, Doryuuzu will likely soon be banned, as right now non-skilled players are able to vote because of the easily-abused meta. Also, Landlos is incredible, and has simply gone under the radar
Ninetales can be decent with a few of support, it can use Ballons for switch in Ground attacks and it can use Hypnosis and Will-o-wisp for cripplling things like Tyranitar and other counters, and about Doryuuzu, It really need to be baned or we can just ban Sandthrow?, Landlos isn´t so dangerous, it just have a few more of power in SS, nothing more...
 
FML
I just realized I did more argument bumps. Sorry, people.


You can´t pretend that all the rain sweepers must have both; STAB in water and Thunder/Gale, and Politoed can be a good pokemon (good enough for using a slot in a common team), you can´t compare it with Porygon-Z, remember that the STAB of Porygon-Z don´t cover anything and the normal type isn´t so defensive as the water type, and you must remember that Politoed can use Hypnosis or Encore and sometimes it can also resist a STAB CloseCombat, When do Porygon-Z have done this?, in conclusion i think that without Swift Swim, the rain teams can be like the 4th gen. SS teams, and perhaps better, because the rain won´t damage your own pokemons.
1) On a normal team, Politoed is not worth it. There's a reason that it hes never been OU or even BL. I know that 5th Gen is different. We are not in Gen2, 3 or 4. However, I can safely say that if you aren't basing your team off of Drizzle, you shouldn't be using Politoed.

2) If you read my post, you would see that I already discussed Thunder/Gale and why they are insignificant.

3) Why are you comparing Porygon-Z and Politoed? I did not compare Politoed to Porygon-Z at all. How could you possibly think that I was from my post? They serve entirely different roles (offense vs. support) and are therefore not comparable. Hence why I didn't do so, but you apparently did anyway.

4) Politoed does not resist Close Combat. Learn the type chart please.

5) In the 4th Gen, rain teams had Swift Swim. It would not be like 4th Gen rain teams. Not at all.

6) It would not be like SS teams. That's like saying that peaches and bananas are both fruit, so they must be the same. No. One weather =/= all weathers.



i don't know for which empoleon u looked but specially defensive empoleon takes 120-141 damage from modest kingdra's life orbed hydro pump in rain which is about 1/3 of his life and if you count in leftovers it never gets 3hkoed by any of specially or mixed kingdra's attacks(without dd).
I would like to point that that Empoleon is fairly uncommon, which typicall indicates being either unviable or out-classed. So to say that it should be run to deal with rain is ridiculous.

But more importantly, have you seen a specially defensive Empoleon at all this Gen? In my calcs, I used the only Empoleon set that I have seen this Gen. It was also the only vaguely common spread last Gen. It was 12/24 HP, and no Sp Def.

When you start seeing Sp Def Empoleon, let me know.
Or when it starts being viable against anything other than rain, let me know.
 
Look. Let's look back to Gen 4. Auto-Sun and Auto-Rain were found to be broken (yes, this was tested. Not just on Kyogre and Groudon.). Back then, there was no Shell Break, no +2 in both Growth, no DrizzleToad and Droughttales, but it was still broken. Right mow, Rain is too dominant. Gorebyss can go +2 +2 +4 (speed with SS) in one turn. That's 892 Speed, 408 Attack, and 654 Special Attack with a Speed boosting nature. Not to mention it gets DOUBLE STAB which is MORE than a +2 boost on its Water attacks. It can hit with Hidden Power to fry Water Absorbers, and have fun taking 37.5% on the switch if you accidentally let Nattorei get some Spikes up, which it will since rain kills its 4x fire weakness into a manageable 2x. Okay, you pulled off a miracle and actually killed the Rain Sweeper. Now do it again with the secondary Rain sweeper. And possibly a third. And make sure that Politoed dies too, as it's a veritable Rain Sweeper. And what if the team has Latios? You want to eat STAB Surfs (with Rain) AND Draco Meteors off of over 500 SpA with Choice Specs? Nattorei's the only thing switching into that, and it'll get eaten alive by repeated beatings by other Rain sweepers.

Sun, on the other hand, is just really good. The Growth boost is what I think makes it a little too good. I'm not sure if its broken or not, but with Chlorophyll and one +2 Growth boost, Venusaur's packing 568 speed, 598 Special Attack, and 402 Attack with 4/252/252 +Speed. However, there are a lot fewer Sun Sweepers (read: Charizard) compared to rain sweepers, so I'm not sure if its broken.

Sand is good too. Doryuuzu and Chomp are kicking ass and spitting on the corpses this gen. However, Chomp's manageable, just really good. Doryuuzu might need the boot, I'm not sure, but sand is an unbroken force here.

And to everyone whining about "double standards" in the banning process, can you tell me how a double standard is bad here? I mean, look at fourth gen. Was sand broken? No. But not banning it created a weather double standard and nobody complained. Same with this Gen. Every Pokemon, ability, item, and effect is different. We wouldn't ban Caterpie along with Arceus because they're both pokemon, would we?
Gorebyss would actually be at effectively +6 speed after shell break
 
And to everyone whining about "double standards" in the banning process, can you tell me how a double standard is bad here? I mean, look at fourth gen. Was sand broken? No. But not banning it created a weather double standard and nobody complained. Same with this Gen. Every Pokemon, ability, item, and effect is different. We wouldn't ban Caterpie along with Arceus because they're both pokemon, would we?
1) Sand was not banned in fourth gen. What are you talking about?
2) I don't see how your Caterpie argument makes sense at all. I simply don't understand it.

But I agree that having a double standard doesn't really matter.

I left about the part about Gorebyss, what can it set up on?


edit: Too bad Vaporeon isn't used more. A specially defensive set can beat Specs Kingdra and Specs Ludicolo every time. It can Toxic a Ludicolo and then stall out Giga Drain with Wish/Protect. It can do the same to Kingdra, who does pitiful damage even with Draco Meteor.

After you get Vaporeon in, even Kabutops can be beaten. 4 HP Kabutops takes 71%-83% from Boil Over. Adamant Choice Band Kabutops maxes out at 94% with Stone Edge.
 

alexwolf

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FML

I would like to point that that Empoleon is fairly uncommon, which typicall indicates being either unviable or out-classed. So to say that it should be run to deal with rain is ridiculous.

But more importantly, have you seen a specially defensive Empoleon at all this Gen? In my calcs, I used the only Empoleon set that I have seen this Gen. It was also the only vaguely common spread last Gen. It was 12/24 HP, and no Sp Def.

When you start seeing Sp Def Empoleon, let me know.
Or when it starts being viable against anything other than rain, let me know.
First of all if a pokemon is fairly uncommon doesn't necessary mean that it is either unviable or outclassed...many times it means that it just requires proper support to work(for example if it has common weaknesses)and people prefer pokes that are easier to play with...
empoleon is in this category...as a bulky water it makes itself unique having access to sr(which most bulky waters lack),unique typing(meaning resistance to sr,toxic immune,no grass weak and a lot more resistances),and grass knot which enables him to beat other bulky waters who lack a good grass or electric move and have to resort to hidden power...of course it also has its cons which are weaknesses to fighting and earth,two very common attacking types,lack of reliable recovery and not so great defensive stats for a bulky water...

i think that in many situations the pros outweight the cons...for example empoleon can fit well in a team if u don't want to use the globally used nattorei as it can do a lot of things that the metal plant also does like beat or at least wall bulky waters,lay sr(unfortunately no spikes)and act as a bulky steel(which almost every team needs for taking nasty dragon attacks).empoleon checks a lot of things like latios and latias(they never carry tbolt and u have roar to phaze them if they try to set up),sazandora,bulky waters(it can ohko swampert with grass knot and it also outspeeds with 4 evs in speed),non eq gyarados,it can take outrages in a pinch and kill back the dragons with ice beam,and generally adds a lot of useful resistances to the team,and also has sr which is very nice!notice how all these things that i said are uses of emploleon outside of rain teams cause if we take them into consideration we also have the following:empoleon walls kingdra and sometimes kabutops two of the most powerful rain sweepers!

empoleon is not so used in 5th generation for the same reason that another 85 sets that were comon for ou pokes in 4th generation are not used now...about 160 new pokes came to light and everyone is testing them.also everyone is trying and battling with the most easy,strong and prevailing strategies which are sand and rain offense...and finally a lot of people don't use empoleon 'cause they are not used to it and they don't see it's usefullness and when u say to them that he handles rain teams very well(cause everyone is screaming that rain offense lacks good counters)they say to you that he doesn't have uses outside of this...they refuse to adapt and try new sets instead of their old(or new)convenient standarts...

And a last note is that empoleon forms a very nice defensive core with poison heal gliscor and a wish passer(most prefered blissey,cause most of the other wishers are bulky waters) as they provide almost everything a team might need in terms of defence and support,which is healing(wish),sr(empoleon or blissey),great defensive synergy(gliscor and empoleon resist every type in the game except from fire and grass,gliscor handles the physical side and empoleon handles the special side)great offensive presence(gliscor with eq and acrobat and empoleon with surf,ice beam and grass knot,immuntiy to a lot of status ailments(gliscor immune to everything,empoleon to poison and blissey has natural cure),phazing capabilities(empoleon with roar) and they dont care about hazards(excluding the wish passer)since both are immune to t-spikes,one resists sr and the other is neutral and finally one of the two is immune to spikes!

so stop saying bullshit about specially defensive empoleon being uncompetitive and justifying this argument with usage of empoleon being poor,'cause many times usage means nothing except that the pokemon needs some clever thinking to do it's work but when it does it's wonderful at it...
 
alexwolf said:
First of all if a pokemon is fairly uncommon doesn't necessary mean that it is either unviable or outclassed...many times it means that it just requires proper support to work(for example if it has common weaknesses)and people prefer pokes that are easier to play with...
empoleon is in this category...as a bulky water it makes itself unique having access to sr(which most bulky waters lack),unique typing(meaning resistance to sr,toxic immune,no grass weak and a lot more resistances),and grass knot which enables him to beat other bulky waters who lack a good grass or electric move and have to resort to hidden power...of course it also has its cons which are weaknesses to fighting and earth,two very common attacking types,lack of reliable recovery and not so great defensive stats for a bulky water...
Yes, there are exceptions, but it typically does mean that the pokemon is out-classed or unviable. You want proof? Take all of the BL, UU, and NU pokemon from Gen4. See how many aren't unviable or out-classed in OU from Gen4. The percentage of OU-workable pokemon is going to be pretty small.

I'm not saying that Empoleon is a bad defensive pokemon. But I am saying two other things.

1) If you give 100 players an Empoleon, probably fewer than 10 would make it a specially defensive one. Why? Because they don't think it's the best set.
2) In the field of Bulky Waters, there are other pokemon that are better for general purposes. Empoleon is better at certain things. But as a plain bulky water, Empoleon is not the best on a typical team.



i think that in many situations the pros outweight the cons...for example empoleon can fit well in a team if u don't want to use the globally used nattorei as it can do a lot of things that the metal plant also does like beat or at least wall bulky waters,lay sr(unfortunately no spikes)and act as a bulky steel(which almost every team needs for taking nasty dragon attacks).empoleon checks a lot of things like latios and latias(they never carry tbolt and u have roar to phaze them if they try to set up),sazandora,bulky waters(it can ohko swampert with grass knot and it also outspeeds with 4 evs in speed),non eq gyarados,it can take outrages in a pinch and kill back the dragons with ice beam,and generally adds a lot of useful resistances to the team,and also has sr which is very nice!notice how all these things that i said are uses of emploleon outside of rain teams cause if we take them into consideration we also have the following:empoleon walls kingdra and sometimes kabutops two of the most powerful rain sweepers!
I don't understand where you're going with that Nattorei analogy. First of all, Roar is unseen even on defensive Empoleon, so if Empoleon has to carry it or be set up bait, then odds are it will get set up on a lot. Secondly, any offensive Gyarados does carry EQ, and any defensive Gyarados could easily deal with an Empoleon. Thirdly, every single Dragon (barring Crimgan) out-speeds Empoleon, so it's going to take at least two hits. If it can't OHKO them (which is a distinct possibility due to 0 Sp Atk EVs), then it takes more hits. With no recovery (not even Wish or Leech Seed) I don't see how it will be doing that from pokemon with stats like Sazandora and Latios. Basically, Empoleon switches in on a Draco Meteor. Dragon switches out. In order to be able to check the Dragons, a pokemon has to be able to do that scenario multiple times. Empoleon can only do 2 or 3 before fainting. Fourthly, Empoleon does not wall Kabutops. Low Kick is almost Universal on Kabutops now in order to deal with Nattorei. And last but not least, by using SR it has used up its final moveslot. Let's hope it doesn't need a 5th one later on in your arguments.



empoleon is not so used in 5th generation for the same reason that another 85 sets that were comon for ou pokes in 4th generation are not used now...about 160 new pokes came to light and everyone is testing them.also everyone is trying and battling with the most easy,strong and prevailing strategies which are sand and rain offense...and finally a lot of people don't use empoleon 'cause they are not used to it and they don't see it's usefullness and when u say to them that he handles rain teams very well(cause everyone is screaming that rain offense lacks good counters)they say to you that he doesn't have uses outside of this...they refuse to adapt and try new sets instead of their old(or new)convenient standarts...
So people aren't using it because they are experimenting with DW abilities and Unova pokemon? Well, that perfectly explains the high usage of pokemon like Scizor, who haven't changed a bit. Pokemon who were OU last Gen and haven't fallen to disuse like Empoleon.

Do you want to know the real reason that people say Empoleon doesn't counter rain? It's not because they don't want to adapt. It's because Ludicolo 2HKOes with Focus Blast, and Empoleon can't do shit back. It's because Kabutops destorys it with Low Kick. Both of those moves are incredibly common on those pokemon. Both of those pokemon are incredibly common on rain teams.



And a last note is that empoleon forms a very nice defensive core with poison heal gliscor and a wish passer(most prefered blissey,cause most of the other wishers are bulky waters) as they provide almost everything a team might need in terms of defence and support,which is healing(wish),sr(empoleon or blissey),great defensive synergy(gliscor and empoleon resist every type in the game except from fire and grass,gliscor handles the physical side and empoleon handles the special side)great offensive presence(gliscor with eq and acrobat and empoleon with surf,ice beam and grass knot,immuntiy to a lot of status ailments(gliscor immune to everything,empoleon to poison and blissey has natural cure),phazing capabilities(empoleon with roar) and they dont care about hazards(excluding the wish passer)since both are immune to t-spikes,one resists sr and the other is neutral and finally one of the two is immune to spikes!
Empoleon cannot have Grass Knot, Ice Beam, and Surf. If it does, you have to sacrifice SR or Roar. And by doing that, you sacrifice several reasons for using it in the first place, according to you.

Every team needs different defensive needs. You can't lump them all together like you did. That's like saying that Nattorei/Burungeru works on ALL teams and that it fulfills very need for any type of team that uses it. No core works that way,

Secondly, if Empoleon were to hypothetically require Gliscor and Blissey on a team with it, it wouldn't be a good defensive pokemon. In that hypothetical scenario, that would be un-realistic. Not every team has 3 slots to spare.

Empoleon with Roar is going to be switching out a lot. Because it will take a lot of hits. It will need constant Wish support from Blissey. Not only can the opponent exploit that need, but Blissey would get worn down after a while. One pokemon can't do it all.

And you also have to consider that those 3 pokemon wouldn't necessarily pair up well with the rest of a team. For one thing, a potential (highly likely, in fact) weather changer already takes up a fourth slot, leaving a team with only 2 left, which limits teambuilding. Not to mention that almost any sweeper has bad defensive synergy with your little trio. Doryuuzu and Randorosu share Fighting/Water and Ice/Water weaknesses, limiting who you can switch to. Chlorophyll and Fire pokemon are weak to Ice and Water, limiting switching ability. Birijion and Terakion share Ice and Fighting/Water weaknesses with the team.



so stop saying bullshit about specially defensive empoleon being uncompetitive and justifying this argument with usage of empoleon being poor,'cause many times usage means nothing except that the pokemon needs some clever thinking to do it's work but when it does it's wonderful at it...
Perhaps you should stop saying bullshit about what I said. Because I NEVER said it was un-competitive. I said that is is somewhat out-classed at things other than countering Kingdra. And don't lie to yourself: it is.
 
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