np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

[e5 y vx]

hmm, I'm just brainstorming, but help me think.
What about banning pokemon/move combinations on a team?;
i.e.: no drizzle and manaphy on the same team, or other arguably crazy combos.

so many things can be abused in weather now and there are way too many pokemon, (but we can never have too much. :D )
mb people just need to see that every team needs to deal with more and more issues like weather, the new speed tiers and gimmicks. and not every team can deal with all the top threats efficiently.

 

[rav3n_zero]

If drizzle's broken, then sandstream and drought are probably broken too, because they all operate on a similar level, although drizzle is arguably the best (sand is more balanced in how it operates, so it can contest rain, the most offensive). Snow warning... has no real offensive boosts other than 100% accurate blizzards which do not compare to double stab surfs, especially since only a few ice types have decent special sweeping potential, and only defensive benefits to ice body users- which are defensively poor ice types.

The question is whether weather is broken and overcentralizing or not. Since if you're forced to run one of 5 pokes, I think that qualifies as overcentralization. Especially since for 4 you have to build a team around the weather, or lose to a team built around the same weather. Hail is the only one where a random team with abomasnow is not at a very significant disadvantage against a dedicated hail team.

I am going to attempt to ladder with a no weather team next.

But there's where I think you are wrong. You're not forced to run one of 5 mons, but could be forced to look again into weather moves to change things around.

Besides, I maybe wrong here, but to be ban material, it has to be broken. If it overcentralizes the metagame around weather, it's just a different metagame from before.

I don't think weather inducers are broken, or even weather. They just changed the face of the metagame.

I recommend looking into Hail Tentacruel. Or Tank Scizor with Rain Dance against SS, specially. There's a lot more. Rain Dance Bronzong could be an option, too. Hell, even Parasect or anything with Worry Seed could work. Well, I don't know every possible viable weather changing mon, but I urge you to look for them.

 

[moe1216]

Face of the Metagame....that makes sense. Every generation added new ways to battle and with it the metagame evolved, lol, and worked differently. In Gen I it was basically offense dominated by the psychic types. Gen II was the era of stall. III was a return to offense while still carrying the stall aspect as well and introduced weather summoning abilities. Gen IV gave both offense and stall a huge boost, making it versatile. Gen V however, is weather. With weather being summoned now without the need of the ubers, the metagame could now focus around all the aspects of weather in a much stronger way. Sure it seems broken, but Stall was the thing in Gen II, just this time aound it seems weather will be the factor that shapes this generation.

Hoped that made sense. :D

 

[Teh_Mysterious_Egg]

I've pawed through this thread, and it seems to boil down to a couple questions
Is a weather-centric metagame desirable?
Do we want to nerf rain/weather, or euthanize it?
What I mean by this is to ask if weather is something that will let a bad player beat a good player, or if it's just something you have to prepare for, just like anything else. Can you make a team that will beat rain, does it have solid counters? Are a wide variety of teams still viable, with rain? If we find weather broken, do we attack the much more numerous abusers, and see where that takes us, or ban the setters, and crush every last hope?


Personally I say Manaphy definitely goes; to me it doesn't seem that hard. It was too good last generation, it got even better this one. Even in this power creep'd meta, Tail Glow in tandem with Hydration = absolutely deadly. Though I won't be voting, I don't have the time to reach 1500.

But hey, I suppose it will be fun for me if Driz gets banned, I've never made a weather team in my life. Even less for me to worry about. :D

 

[cosmicexplorer]

But there's where I think you are wrong. You're not forced to run one of 5 mons, but could be forced to look again into weather moves to change things around.

Besides, I maybe wrong here, but to be ban material, it has to be broken. If it overcentralizes the metagame around weather, it's just a different metagame from before.

I don't think weather inducers are broken, or even weather. They just changed the face of the metagame.

I recommend looking into Hail Tentacruel. Or Tank Scizor with Rain Dance against SS, specially. There's a lot more. Rain Dance Bronzong could be an option, too. Hell, even Parasect or anything with Worry Seed could work. Well, I don't know every possible viable weather changing mon, but I urge you to look for them.

If the only way to stop it is to run Hail Tentacruel, or Scizor with Rain Dance, then it's not only overcentralizing, but overpowered. When a player has to use a particular strategy, or use something otherwise completely useless to stop it (i.e. Hail on Tentacruel), that's broken.

 

[Redjar]

hmm, I'm just brainstorming, but help me think.
What about banning pokemon/move combinations on a team?;
i.e.: no drizzle and manaphy on the same team, or other arguably crazy combos.

so many things can be abused in weather now and there are way too many pokemon, (but we can never have too much. :D )
mb people just need to see that every team needs to deal with more and more issues like weather, the new speed tiers and gimmicks. and not every team can deal with all the top threats efficiently.

No, I personally hate this idea. It'll start a snowball of all sorts of things and (at the extremes) you can use arceus, but only in tandem w/ caterpie, magikarp, feebas, weedle, pidgey, and wurmple.

 

[XienZo]

If the only way to stop it is to run Hail Tentacruel, or Scizor with Rain Dance, then it's not only overcentralizing, but overpowered. When a player has to use a particular strategy, or use something otherwise completely useless to stop it (i.e. Hail on Tentacruel), that's broken.

Rapid Spin?

You use non SR-weak pokes or you run Rapid Spin.

Likewise, you use weather centric pokes or you run Hail on w/e.

Not saying it's not broken like SR, but using moves that are solely for countering a certain strategy doesn't mean that strategy is broken.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Rapid Spin?

You use non SR-weak pokes or you run Rapid Spin.

Likewise, you use weather centric pokes or you run Hail on w/e.

Not saying it's not broken like SR, but using moves that are solely for countering a certain strategy doesn't mean that strategy is broken.

You can still win without Rapid Spin,unlike Rain.

 

[XienZo]

You can still win without Rapid Spin,unlike Rain.

Yes, as long as you use pokemon that aren't weak to Stealth Rock.

Likewise, you don't have to run Hail if you have your own weather/Trick Room team.

 

[masterful]

Yes, as long as you use pokemon that aren't weak to Stealth Rock.

Likewise, you don't have to run hail if you have your own weather/Trick Room team.

How would Trick Room do anything?

 

[ensoriki]

No, I personally hate this idea. It'll start a snowball of all sorts of things and (at the extremes) you can use arceus, but only in tandem w/ caterpie, magikarp, feebas, weedle, pidgey, and wurmple.

His idea's really terrible, but improbable.

Could make Drizzle and swift swimmers illegal to have together or Drizzle and a max of 2 swift swimmers or some BS like that.
Though again that happening is improbable.

I dunno why the hell people think manaphy is cool outside of rain.
He's a pain in the ass everywhere he goes, raining or not.

 

[SlimMan]

Yes, as long as you use pokemon that aren't weak to Stealth Rock.

Likewise, you don't have to run Hail if you have your own weather/Trick Room team.

If you're saying that to be viable you have to run Rapid Spin with SR-weak pokemon, you are sorely mistaken. You don't want too many, but a team doesn't automatically suck if it has a Zapdos and no Rapid Spin, Shanderaa and no Rapid Spin, etc.


On another note, I'm excited for this round of testing. I'll be able to use a team without using a slot for the sole purpose of checking Darkrai and Skymin.

 

[Redjar]

If you're saying that to be viable you have to run Rapid Spin with SR-weak pokemon, you are sorely mistaken. You don't want too many, but a team doesn't automatically suck if it has a Zapdos and no Rapid Spin, Shanderaa and no Rapid Spin, etc.

Agreed, I have a yanmega, that's not a lead and even w/ SR up he can sweep.

 

[Eggbert]

Haven't even made a BW team yet. Rain abuse I guess.

Also not sure if this is for simple questions or not: Do we just have to reach 1500 or maintain it? Sounds difficult...

 

[astrohawke]

Yes, as long as you use pokemon that aren't weak to Stealth Rock.

Likewise, you don't have to run Hail if you have your own weather/Trick Room team.

Lots of teams are successful without rapid spin and can still have 1-2 SR weak pokemon. Particularly ones that have recovery. But obviously, it's not going to be a whole team that's all weak to SR because then that's just a bad team.

However, teams that don't run weather/TR but have 1-2 rain counters like nattorei can still be overrun by its sheer power and speed. If you have no counters and get swept, then your team is bad. If you have 1-2 counters and still get swept, then the opposing team/pokemon is overpowered OR is overcentralizing because it forces you to use a particular strategy or have a team dedicated to countering it.

 

[capefeather]

Your rating doesn't decay in PO. It's a straight rating where you go up or down by a certain amount depending on what your opponent's rating was relative to yours.

 

[Demoness]

I honestly don't know why nearly every Rain Dance user I face seems to act so stupid. They let my Gallade kill their Politoed even when it's painfully obvious I have Tyraniatr in my team to change the weather on them and they rarely have anything to handle opposing Rain teams or Calm Mind Birijion (Okay, maybe a good amount have something for Birijion).

 

[Fluffy Otters]

I am glad to say a Choice Specs Politoad can ohko Tyranitar with Hydro Pump (unless it's specially defensive) and always will with Focus Blast and while Virijion is a big problem, it won't ko Dragonite at full health and Dragonite murders with Hurricane.

And don't let Politoad die when they still have Tyranitar, that is just stupid.

 

[cosmicexplorer]

Rapid Spin?

You use non SR-weak pokes or you run Rapid Spin.

Likewise, you use weather centric pokes or you run Hail on w/e.

Not saying it's not broken like SR, but using moves that are solely for countering a certain strategy doesn't mean that strategy is broken.

It's a bit late to respond to this, but the difference is that Stealth Rock does not create a win condition, while weather does. The most Stealth Rock will do is cut off a fraction of your team's health, which, while annoying and useful, does not allow the player to win in any way, unlike Rain, which is an overpowering offensive force that directly converts into KOs on the field.

 

[SJCrew]

Porygon2 has higher defenses, has more HP, also has Magic Coat, Toxic, and Recover, has Trace, and has better offenses.

The only things it doesn't have that Deoxys-D does is Spikes and Taunt.

It may be viable, but Porygon2 outclasses it.

Porygon2 outclasses it at what? Getting set up on? Deoxys-D has Stealth Rock, Spikes, Cosmic Power, Pressure, and Taunt over him. These are moves that support the team and prevent him from getting set up on, neither of which Porygon2 can do well.

 

[More Cowbell]

I think there's no comparing Rain and Sun, or Rain and Sandstorm for that matter. Rain is far more versatile than any of the two: there are Swift Swimmers, Dry Skin abusers, Hydration abusers, some use Rain Veil or whatever it is called. Each of these abilities have some very viable users (Kingdra, Toxicroak, Manaphy, Ludicolo just to name a few), and even Pokémon without an ability like that profit from the rain (boosted STAB, lower Fire weakness, etc.).

Sun, on the other hand, has what? Chlorophyll? The only Chloro-Pokémon I think is viable is Venusaur. Then there are things like Solar Power and Leaf Guard, but the Pokémon who get that are either too frail or too weak to really profit (Charizard, Leafeon for example). Besides the abilities, few things profit, since Fire STABs are rare, and the lowered Water-weakness doesn't help all that often.

Sandstorm is better than Sun, but I still think it is 'worse' than rain, for the fact that there are only few users, all of which are straightforward (Garchomp, Doryuuzu and Landlos (right?) all have some standard sets that they mostly stick too, and they are utterly destroyed by priority (Mach Punch, Ice Shard)). Sandstorm does have arguably the best summoner (Tyranitar), but still.

Hail doesn't even compare to any of the other weathers, not even Sun. As much as I like it, it seems to inviable, if you ask me.

 

[Raikaria]

So what?
Who cares if it's overcentralized. Overcentralization is a terrible reason to nominate anything.
If everyone starts carry's scizor, so what? It's called bring a scizor counter.
If weather is the metagame, so what? It is what it is? The only concern should be if it's broken or not, if it's popular so what, all of a sudden things need to be banned, because people are using it?
It's funny because the tier gets called "overused"/standard, complaining about centralization in something called overused sounds retarded.
Overcentralization isn't a reason to ban things, it just makes you wonder if the reason something is used, is because it's broken.
Why should we care if you can't use a "balanced team", not like much people care if a drizzle ban smashed rain stall.
Far as I understand, your playstyle doesn't matter at all, and the only thing that matters is whether or not something is broken. If your playstyle dies, I believe the phrase, unfortunately is "too bad"?
Who cares if banning Mewtwo stops someones playstyle of using some retarded Mewtwo set that isn't "broken".

Someone can surely correct me If im wrong but when did overcentralization ever matter? Garchomp? Please they gave more reasons than overcentralization.
I don't mean for you to take offense, and I apologize if you do.

Everyone carrying Scizor wasn't Scizor overcentralising. It was Salamance. As soon as Mance was banned, Scizor's useage plumetted. Scizor was being used so much because of his ability to revenge kill Salamance.

Another example, Latias. Scarftar's useage fell lik a rock after her banning.

Generally, if everyone starts running the same thing, or things to counter said thing, that's a sign something is wrong. There's 300+ fully evolved/viable NFE's now. Yet everyone's running the same tactic, or something that can check *read, not counter* that tactic? That's a VERY strong sign that something is wrong.

Overcentralisation is not nessacerily a sign something is broken, but it sure is a symptom. If something is broken, naturally, everyone will either start abuseing what is broken to win, or specialise their teams to counter the broken factor, leaving them vunerable to others.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. CAP proved Drizzle [And Drought] to be broken IN THEIR OWN RIGHTS in Generation 4. The only 'nerf' Rain and Sun have recived in this generation is the increased viabilty of sand as an offensive weather. Meanwhile, Sun for a truckload of new abusers, and Rain got new abusers and excellent support options [Nattorei resists all weaknesses of Water-types...]

The existance of Doryuzzu [Which is the only real nerf Rain/Sun have recived in Generation 5] is not enough to make up for all the buffs they have recived. I'd be astounded if Drizzle didn't get a Supermajority this time.

And yes, this will probobly lead to a spiral. Drizzle will be banned, which will leave little to check Doryuzzu. Dory will then probobly be banned. Then, Sun might just wind up banned, due to less sand. But the thing is, we're looking for a balanced metagame. It dosen't matter if there's different 'teirs' of brokeness, of something is to much, and dominates the metagame, it needs to be banned.

Drizzle writes off so many team types, and you HAVE to be running a counter to it to even stand a chance agaist a half-competant player. And, by counter, I mean 'other weather', you can't even check Drizzle teams with pokemon, really, unless you're using Trick Room. If the game's degreading to weather wars, you know something is wrong.

Porygon2 outclasses it at what? Getting set up on? Deoxys-D has Stealth Rock, Spikes, Cosmic Power, Pressure, and Taunt over him. These are moves that support the team and prevent him from getting set up on, neither of which Porygon2 can do well.

Porygon 2 has 105 Sp.Attack. That's more than enough to stop more frail pokemon setting up on him, even if univested. Especially with the rather good coverage P-2 has. P2 and Deyoxys-D play different roles. P-2's better as glue for an offnesive or balance team, Deo-D is better for stall.

 

[Vaz]

Cool, and can start testing my new team out now. I will be much easier to battle now with a lot less luck factor. I tihnk 1500 is still too high though, but again I will try my best. Also, thanks Super for those updates AND OF COURSE to Phil, Aldaron, Earthworm, Gouki, Jibaku and Reachzero for your hard work :)

Thank you, and enjoy!

 

[breh]

TBH after Drizzle is banned, Dory will be banned. Manaphy may or may not be banned but people seem to hate it so much that it likely will.

After that though? I think the metagame will come a lot closer to stable. Sun sucks no matter how much you try (everything is akwardly made and there's no simultaenous power boost and speed boost; a lot less benefits from reduction of water power than of fire power) and without Dory, all SS has is Landlos, Tyranitar and lol Sandslash.

I'm curious how Deoxys-d and -S will fare in this metagame. Also same goes for Mew.

 

[SJCrew]

I must have tried pretty hard then, since I have a couple of phenomenal Sun teams in my repertoire that have peaked in at least the top 100s. It is not as dominant or easy to use as Rain; you have to think and play entirely differently. It's still a top-notch playstyle that runs over non-weather teams rather easily.

Though you probably couldn't tell from the number of players making their teams completely and utterly reliant on it, with their only defense against other weather being a frail NP sweeper Ninetales. >_> Defensive, people, defensive.