The truest post in this thread. People have to come to the realization that weather is the new status quo, the new "normal battle conditions". I like the comparison to Stealth Rock, which I think is being used much less this gen, is very appropriate since lacking a weather changer is like laking an SR user last gen. If people are too stubborn to keep up, then they're going to get left behind.
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?
- Thread starter Philip7086
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The truest post in this thread. People have to come to the realization that weather is the new status quo, the new "normal battle conditions". I like the comparison to Stealth Rock, which I think is being used much less this gen, is very appropriate since lacking a weather changer is like laking an SR user last gen. If people are too stubborn to keep up, then they're going to get left behind.
What? Randorosu if anything has less counters than Doryuuzu. Dooryuuzu is hard countered by Gliscor while Randorosu just plows right through him. A good amount of bulky Waters and Hippowdon can live Doryuuzu's Earthquake (and even immune in Rotom-W's case) considering he pretty much needs Balloon to help with setting up, Randorosu can OHKO all of them (although Rotom-W has a very small chance of living with Stealth Rock in play.) The only honestly reliable counters for Randorosu are Skarmory and Bronzong.
Oo sr didn't give your pokemon a speed or damage advantage (of much i suppose)... there are also 17 sr users in gen 4 ou, and 3 ou rapid spinners of very differing strengths and weaknesses. There is also no variation in the benefit you receive from SR as far as your team goes no matter who uses it, where weather requires certain combinations and choices. Some teams were also very resistant to SR and didn't require a spinner, where here almost every team requires a weather changer or leech. You also can't taunt to prevent weather at this point, where sr could be prevented and delt with.
requiring 1 of 5 pokemon with auto weather on every team is a might bit over centralizing (since they count as sr user AND spinner in your analogy). Look into how we can make weather more like sr and we see my suggestions mentioned earlier, with which many people agree. (maybe not for the same reasons, but I see it all over this post.)
Edit:
To continue your anaogy, we would have to get rid of auto-weather to make it taunt-able, and requiring of a turn to bring it on or get rid of it. This also brings in all the other users of those moves and brings the number of invokers up to a reasonable level. You would also have to remove a few weather based abilities to make it so every weather gave the same possible boost or at least similar. I think that is going a bit far, but shows just how non-centralizing SR was compared to weather.
I hate instant-weather. It's getting out of hand. It takes no skill to win and every team is practically the same! Dory in the sand has practically no safe switch ins. Ninetales draught and Politoad drizzle need to go, imo. ESPECIALLY Politoad. Also, Shadow Tag. But I'd like to see Drizzle/Draught go away more. I'd say Sand too, but that won't happen (the biggest threat is Doryuzzu).
I looked into it and agree, though there are still only a small set of counters for dory as well. Many of these pokemon also have to be specd just right to live through 2 hits and ohko back, deviating from normal sets and causing them to be less effective elsewhere.
I know this. I'm just getting very annoyed that people are saying that Doryuuzu has no safe switch ins when Randorosu brings even more power along with him to ensure 2HKOes on every bulky Water out there, and can even give a big "fuck you" to Gliscor with Hidden Power Ice.
I have no idea wtf your talking about.
Dory's really not that big of a problem.
Either they have him revenge killing something or he's waiting in the wings for late game.
Maybe it's just because I have a screener, but why the hell not have a screener when brick break is not too common despite it's distribution and it's a hard hitting metagame.
Someone go check if Tangrowth can counter
Gyarados - been on this kid since 4th gen.
Doryuuza -Definitely, physical tank growth takes less than 50% from adament life orb x-scissor, even at +2 unless the rocks are up (and rocks are not always up this isn't 4th gen)it's no ohko, the question is who runs adament life orb Dory and is going to be swords dancing?
Balloon Jolly dory or even Balloon adament Dory? Tangrowth will smash it's face in and then switch out for the regeneration boost.
Randorosu. - if it's special dorosu or just carrying hidden power Ice growth is screwed but other then that? If rand's a threat Tang could carry some HP on him to take out dorosu. Rands usually use u-turn as well anyways so to damage Growth they'd switch out, and Growth can swick out next turn for that regeneration boost.
Gliscor - Tangrowths bulk...while also having 110 base spA, yeah a Hidden power ice growth takes care of this...& dragon switches in (if they decide to appear).
Garchomp - HP Ice growth...Growth can also Sleep powder it.
Kabutops. Less attack then Dory the calcs are going to have less damage then the above stuff. Yeah tangrowth can switch in and scare it out, with regen boost? It can switch out from whatever it took too.
Evostone Tangela can probably scare them out too if I recall it has some special attack on it too. Though I don't really see the reason to use Tangela.
Thats just an example off the top of my head of something that can counter Dory and other threats in the metagame.
Randorosu & gliscor also obv counter the thing.
Leafeon could possibly counter Dory too though Leafeon isn't really a 1st pick for teams.
I don't know why people keep thinking we're banning rain because we can't get used to having more than 1 weather or can't adapt to something new. FYI, hail existed in gen 4. Sun still exists now. Neither of those are in too much danger of being banned. So it's not because we can't handle more than one weather, it's because we can't handle a broken weather.
It's the combination of simultaneously boosting speed and power for no setup that rain provides which none of the other weathers provide that makes it so strong. Add to that it's boosting one of the best types already. When fire pokemon start getting chlorophyll or when sandstorm boosts ground, rock and steel type attacks, you can start making this argument.
@Above Tangrowth isn't a 100% counter to any of the above except kabutops. Not even gyara as some of them now carry bounce. Assuming you're trying to counter dory and landlos, you have to switch in on the SD. Then X-scissor or Stone edge 2HKOs while power whip also 2HKOs. Even hp ice is a 2HKO on landlos unless you invest in some EVs or its taken SR damage which I guess is possible. But then even a lot of physical landlos carry HP ice for gliscor, other landlos and the dragons because given landlos' special stat, it's an OHKO even without EVs.
Thank you for bringing this up. People think like Sand as a weather playstyle to the effect of Rain and Sun when it's really balanced offense's only chance at seeing play. Sand boosts Speed for only one Pokemon at the moment and boosts power for another. Garchomp maybe counts with that annoying Sand Veil, but it's more of a nasty side effect than an active ability.
But that's it. There is no +50% to Ground moves to deal with (which are still easier to avoid than Surf and Hydro Pump), no slew of double-speed boosting sweepers, nothing like that. It's more of a balanced offense that cancels out other weather with a couple of side benefits. Granted, the influence of Dory, Chomp, and Landlos could be argued to be on par with other offensive weather teams.
When gen 2 was stally people had to deal wit it, gen 5 be weather based and theres nuff Q_Q.
If rain & stuff dominate then UU will basically get everything that couldn't hold up to snuff, and it will probably be exactly what you want RD+ damp rock rain teams at best.
Could complain about UU but for what, if OU is all just weather then UU should have everything you want. If it forms.
If non-weather isn't up to snuff in OU now it's not competitive to use, and so have Smogon drop up a UU tier now or something an get your Politoed, Ninetails & Sandstormless metagame.
Back on Sand teams.
Can't cressellia switch on Randorosu and kill it?
If rain & stuff dominate then UU will basically get everything that couldn't hold up to snuff, and it will probably be exactly what you want RD+ damp rock rain teams at best.
Could complain about UU but for what, if OU is all just weather then UU should have everything you want. If it forms.
If non-weather isn't up to snuff in OU now it's not competitive to use, and so have Smogon drop up a UU tier now or something an get your Politoed, Ninetails & Sandstormless metagame.
Back on Sand teams.
Can't cressellia switch on Randorosu and kill it?
remember, dory is quite bulky as well, and you need your tangrowth to ohko him without stab with a weak base power move that can't be ground. max you can get on brick break (your best bet here unless you want to be killed 30% of the time) is 228 - 268 (63.16% - 74.24%) on 0 hp 0 def dory with max atk tangrowth. If you don't mind missing the counter 30% of the time, focus blast is a ohko... but you can't be defensively EVd because you need max satk to get 364 - 428 (100.83% - 118.56%) (and it sucks to counter less often than paraflinch stops someone from attacking). 226 - 266 (66.28% - 78.01%) is what dory will hit on you if you have max def and enough satk to counter 70% of the time, and he'll hit more if you have max hp. also keep in mind that many dorys don't run balloon because they are on a ream with ranorosu who already has that switch in covered.
In fact, i don't think you really did your math on any of this... you have to look at both sides to have a counter, and i don't think you did that. Many of your counter ideas also require a huge deviation from a normal growth set. Of all the counters you can find for each of those pokemon, he really isn't all that great in any of those situations. He IS good on a sun team though, but if you have sun you can use niney to stop him if you got rid of ttar.
Who's your Screener?
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I don't understand why people say that Rank is the ultimate Roob counter. Slowbro does it SOOOOOO much better. I know that Rank is a better mon in the metagame as a whole, but for the sole purpose of countering Roob......
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Anyway, back to the main discussion...
Ranks my screener, I prefer having magic guard taking the will-o-wisps,leech seeds & toxic to slowbro most of the time, his 2 weaknesses are easier to handle then dark,grass,bug & electric.
I don't know about slowbro, he's going to what Psycho shock/psychic then slack off?
Set up a screen on Roob and go to work.
He lures scizors like nobodies business though.
I don't know about slowbro, he's going to what Psycho shock/psychic then slack off?
Set up a screen on Roob and go to work.
He lures scizors like nobodies business though.
Everything-you-said + Rank-is-bulkier-on-the-special-side + Rank-can-be-an-offensive-threat
Although, burning a Scizor on the switch-in is fun
And gaining health every time I switch out
about weather, i wonder why wont we make the OU metagame adapt to weather overpoweredness. Well, something like in ubers, you are forced to use Groudon and Kyogre that change weather since it brings advantage to the user and some case to ruin opponent's strategy. Why not do same in OU to bring at least 1 changer in a team ?
If weather is too much, ban it. The reason no-one cares about that they have to prepare for weather in Ubers is simply because it is Ubers. We don't care about balance in Ubers. Things can be as broken as they like and it won't matter.
About cress against sandstorm:
Well shes great against rando, but shes weak against dory since all she can do when alone is reflect, and ice beam(unless you use HP Fighting) not to mention you can only recover to your full health 2 times using 8 turn and a whole PP of a move. Not to mention Ttar, and Rain and sand everywhere. shes a poor choice for such a suppoesed to be counter in a whole
Well shes great against rando, but shes weak against dory since all she can do when alone is reflect, and ice beam(unless you use HP Fighting) not to mention you can only recover to your full health 2 times using 8 turn and a whole PP of a move. Not to mention Ttar, and Rain and sand everywhere. shes a poor choice for such a suppoesed to be counter in a whole
I don't see why people are saying Sun is too much, honestly.
1: Ninetails is easily the worst weather inducer. It's really frail, and will usually go down after one or two hits, even resisted.
2: Sun has a major flaw. The pokemon who get double speed, also happen to have one of their weaknesses powered up. Fire. And Fire resists their STABS. Heatran shuts down Sun teams so badly, it's not funny. Same with Salamance/Sazandora.
3: Sun dosen't have the raw power of rain. It's double speed OR a power boost. Not both.
4: Grass is not a good attacking type. Water, however, is, especially when paired with Ice.
Rain's on a whole other level from Sun. Sun could actually stay OU, for all I care. Drizzle needs to go. Landos probobly needs to go, Dory's manageable just about, but Sand itself can stay. We'll just have a 3-weather metagame instead of 2. [Hail exists people]
And, about sand being at the top of the ladder, beating rain, Sand has less abusers, and is more flexiable. Most sand teams towards the top of the ladder use pokemon that can beat rain, such as Nattorei and Burungeru, AND take the weather away from the rain teams. To handle rain, they basically specialise their entire team. For one playstyle. Then you have to bear i mind Dory/Landos existed before Drizzletoad, so the sand teams have had longer to practise. Nothing's stopping rain from packing sand counters.
Also, if people actually ran DD Mixdra, they'd probobly be able to stop sand cold. Tyranitar and Hippo are not fans of taking +1 Waterfalls. Alas, most Kingdra I've seen are specially based, usually with Sub, Surf, HP something, and Outrage.
1: Ninetails is easily the worst weather inducer. It's really frail, and will usually go down after one or two hits, even resisted.
2: Sun has a major flaw. The pokemon who get double speed, also happen to have one of their weaknesses powered up. Fire. And Fire resists their STABS. Heatran shuts down Sun teams so badly, it's not funny. Same with Salamance/Sazandora.
3: Sun dosen't have the raw power of rain. It's double speed OR a power boost. Not both.
4: Grass is not a good attacking type. Water, however, is, especially when paired with Ice.
Rain's on a whole other level from Sun. Sun could actually stay OU, for all I care. Drizzle needs to go. Landos probobly needs to go, Dory's manageable just about, but Sand itself can stay. We'll just have a 3-weather metagame instead of 2. [Hail exists people]
And, about sand being at the top of the ladder, beating rain, Sand has less abusers, and is more flexiable. Most sand teams towards the top of the ladder use pokemon that can beat rain, such as Nattorei and Burungeru, AND take the weather away from the rain teams. To handle rain, they basically specialise their entire team. For one playstyle. Then you have to bear i mind Dory/Landos existed before Drizzletoad, so the sand teams have had longer to practise. Nothing's stopping rain from packing sand counters.
Also, if people actually ran DD Mixdra, they'd probobly be able to stop sand cold. Tyranitar and Hippo are not fans of taking +1 Waterfalls. Alas, most Kingdra I've seen are specially based, usually with Sub, Surf, HP something, and Outrage.
Don't get me wrong dude, I know Sun has flaws, but my gameplay experience says something entirely different from these bullet points you guys keep listing about why Sun shouldn't work. I only need one Chlorophyll sweeper for it to be completely broken. The rest of my team can do whatever it wants.
Some of you need to realize that Sun teams are not set in stone as 'Ninetales + Grass types + other stuff that can't deal with all of the things people theorymon to stop it,' just like Stall teams aren't just Skarmory/Blissey/4 fillers. As long as I have my Ninetales and Chlorophyll abuser, I can be pretty flexible about everything else. Those four Pokemon can be Heatran counters, Rapid Spinners, or whatever else I need to handle what the other guy's doing. But if at the end of the day you have something on your team with blazing speed and dicks for counters, we have a problem on our hands. That's basically what Drought and Drizzle do for the metagame, which is why a majority of ladder matches are little more than "last weather mon standing".
If you want to be greedy and make every single thing on the team have Chlorophyll or a Fire move, then that's your choice. But in a metagame dominated by so many other weather options and tactics, a balanced offensive team is the way to go.
Some of you need to realize that Sun teams are not set in stone as 'Ninetales + Grass types + other stuff that can't deal with all of the things people theorymon to stop it,' just like Stall teams aren't just Skarmory/Blissey/4 fillers. As long as I have my Ninetales and Chlorophyll abuser, I can be pretty flexible about everything else. Those four Pokemon can be Heatran counters, Rapid Spinners, or whatever else I need to handle what the other guy's doing. But if at the end of the day you have something on your team with blazing speed and dicks for counters, we have a problem on our hands. That's basically what Drought and Drizzle do for the metagame, which is why a majority of ladder matches are little more than "last weather mon standing".
If you want to be greedy and make every single thing on the team have Chlorophyll or a Fire move, then that's your choice. But in a metagame dominated by so many other weather options and tactics, a balanced offensive team is the way to go.
I think we should make a whole clause banning weather.
But, it wouldn't really be a "ban". We would have two ladders, both of them standard:
"No weather"
and
"Weather."
But, it wouldn't really be a "ban". We would have two ladders, both of them standard:
"No weather"
and
"Weather."
Lol, sun isnt bad, but its just so outclassed by rain. And Ninetales isnt that bad. Usually, when i see one, i go into Ttar, to scare it out, (and sometimes pursuit it) but lately they've carrying Will-o-Wisp, which leaves me completely butthurt ;o; I'd choose Sun over Hail any day. (lol, hail)
If you're carrying only one chlorophyll user, then it's really not that hard to stop considering it's only fast and not strong. It's really like trying to stop a deoxys-S sweep against your team. You can't outspeed it but it doesn't destroy everything either. You fail to mention what this particular chlorophyll user is but whatever it is, I'm sure there are some commonly used OU counters to it.
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