• Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!

np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

Status
Not open for further replies.
fidgety said:
gasp it is only really weak to 1 type that is carried by rain teams + has a powerful stab option to keep 1 of the 2 consistant threats to it from stetting up on it.
also i like how i waste an hour typing the 5th post on the page + every1 skates right over it.
Click to expand...
It's resist is offset by STAB+Rain Boost, it can't threaten Ludi at all, and can get easily set up on by Toxicroak

Cshadow said:
Nattorei has base 116 Sp.Def, that's far from "meh"
Click to expand...
No, it is meh. 116 base requires max SpD to take things like Hydro Pump or surf, especially when its resist is offset by STAB+Rain
 
masterful said:
I HAVE SAID A BUNCH OF REASONS! Read what I post! No one could possibly enjoy a Drizzle meta unless they: A, use drizzle teams, or B, run like 4 checks to rain on every team. I have said SO MANY TIMES that the broken trio are nearly impossible to check without hampering your team's ability to do well against non-rain teams. Offer one example for a poke that can really do that and I might listen to you
Click to expand...

I know,right?
44 pages and some people still think perma-rain shouldn't be banned.

"Oh,you haven't posted ANY reasons for it to be banned"
What about the rest of the thread?
Seriously.
 
masterful said:
I HAVE SAID A BUNCH OF REASONS! Read what I post! No one could possibly enjoy a Drizzle meta unless they: A, use drizzle teams, or B, run like 4 checks to rain on every team. I have said SO MANY TIMES that the broken trio are nearly impossible to check without hampering your team's ability to do well against non-rain teams. Offer one example for a poke that can really do that and I might listen to you
Click to expand...

Your use of caps doesn't mean jack shit.
When you do not think like other people, when you have not spoken to other people, do not speak for other people. You say no one can a drizzle meta for this reason and that reason, but who have you talked to who enjoys it? Who have you asked? Your putting words in peoples mouth, while theres a certain tolerable level of assumption, that assumption should be based off something and if you haven't even interacted with the people you speak for you shouldn't speak for them.

I am 150% fine with Drizzle being a member of our metagame. I have issues with certain things used in Drizzle.

a poke? You want a single pokemon to counter a team?
Spend an hour to build your team, build your team right, if your not willing to spend a complete hour break it down, edit the team constantly.
Everyones been over this shit with you anyways.
Other weather, Trick room users, dedicated walls.


I really don't care if we spend 3 month's dealing with Rain, at least it would be done properly.
 
Lamppost said:
Nattorei is far from crappy when fighting rain. it like one of the only true counters to kingdra, who is the best rain abuser. It also walls kabutops and can even take a superpower from it if ran.
Click to expand...

Uh...it is true Nattorei can take Kingdra but you don't want to be switching in on Kabutops. Low Kick is an easy 2 hit ko, 1 after Swords Dance, and if it ran Super Power, Nattorei takes so much damage that it'll die without Swords Dance if it took even one hit from another Swift Swimmer (max hp/min def Nattorei takes an average 84% UNBOOSTED from Super Power should Kabutops for some bizzare reason run it).
 
ensoriki said:
Your use of caps doesn't mean jack shit.
When you do not think like other people, when you have not spoken to other people, do not speak for other people. You say no one can a drizzle meta for this reason and that reason, but who have you talked to who enjoys it? Who have you asked? Your putting words in peoples mouth, while theres a certain tolerable level of assumption, that assumption should be based off something and if you haven't even interacted with the people you speak for you shouldn't speak for them.

I am 150% fine with Drizzle being a member of our metagame. I have issues with certain things used in Drizzle.

a poke? You want a single pokemon to counter a team?
Spend an hour to build your team, build your team right, if your not willing to spend a complete hour break it down, edit the team constantly.
Everyones been over this shit with you anyways.
Other weather, Trick room users, dedicated walls.


I really don't care if we spend 3 month's dealing with Rain, at least it would be done properly.
Click to expand...
Oh yeah, people have truly proven themselves able to repeat the same point about how so and so counters rain, and then ignore when myself or someone else refutes it. Congrats, you are all very skilled at remaining willfully ignorant of logic and fact. If you have a problem with my requirement, I will stretch it further. Show me one team that can reliably counter rain without greatly hampering itself
 
masterful said:
It's resist is offset by STAB+Rain Boost, it can't threaten Ludi at all, and can get easily set up on by Toxicroak


No, it is meh. 116 base requires max SpD to take things like Hydro Pump or surf, especially when its resist is offset by STAB+Rain
Click to expand...

ugh

116 Base SpD is excellent. To put it into perspective it has highier special defence than Chansey (Granted Chansey has that huge HP stat if you are getting picky), Suicune, Snorlax, Latios, Togekiss and Bronzong. I think you meant to say that his HP stat is 'meh'.
 
masterful said:
Oh yeah, people have truly proven themselves able to repeat the same point about how so and so counters rain, and then ignore when myself or someone else refutes it. Congrats, you are all very skilled at remaining willfully ignorant of logic and fact. If you have a problem with my requirement, I will stretch it further. Show me one team that can reliably counter rain without greatly hampering itself
Click to expand...

You can't say that you refuting those in opposition to banning Drizzle's arguments is final, as you make it sound like. I think the fact that this debate has gone on for as long as it has has proved that the issue is contentious and more a matter of personal opinion than any one side being "right" as both sides have valid logic, points and arguments.
 
ginganinja said:
ugh

116 Base SpD is excellent. To put it into perspective it has highier special defence than Chansey (Granted Chansey has that huge HP stat if you are getting picky), Suicune, Snorlax, Latios, Togekiss and Bronzong. I think you meant to say that his HP stat is 'meh'.
Click to expand...
I mean his defenses are "meh" when facing a kind of team like Drizzle, which focuses so much on pure outright colossal power. Chansey is crap without its HP stat, and it can run Evo stone. Nat also has worse SpD than Mantyke, Kecleon, Mr. Mime, and Articuno. Oh noes!
 
masterful said:
Oh yeah, people have truly proven themselves able to repeat the same point about how so and so counters rain, and then ignore when myself or someone else refutes it. Congrats, you are all very skilled at remaining willfully ignorant of logic and fact. If you have a problem with my requirement, I will stretch it further. Show me one team that can reliably counter rain without greatly hampering itself
Click to expand...

I literally just gave you an example on the last page, yet you ignore it and continue to post this nonsense. Do you think people will take you seriously? Also, the logic of "show me why it's not broken" is incredibly flawed. If anything, it should be the other way around. We should be trying to prevent bans unless ABSOLUTELY necessary. Maybe it's time you give some real reasons as to why it is broken other than people hate playing against it and the big 3.
 
ensoriki said:
Your use of caps doesn't mean jack shit.
When you do not think like other people, when you have not spoken to other people, do not speak for other people. You say no one can a drizzle meta for this reason and that reason, but who have you talked to who enjoys it? Who have you asked? Your putting words in peoples mouth, while theres a certain tolerable level of assumption, that assumption should be based off something and if you haven't even interacted with the people you speak for you shouldn't speak for them.

I am 150% fine with Drizzle being a member of our metagame. I have issues with certain things used in Drizzle.

a poke? You want a single pokemon to counter a team?
Spend an hour to build your team, build your team right, if your not willing to spend a complete hour break it down, edit the team constantly.
Everyones been over this shit with you anyways.
Other weather, Trick room users, dedicated walls.


I really don't care if we spend 3 month's dealing with Rain, at least it would be done properly.
Click to expand...


The problem is,you need too many checks and counters for one team to handle.

You NEED a counter for Dory.
You NEED a counter for Landlos.
You NEED a counter for Kingdra.
You NEED a counter for Ludicolo.
You NEED a counter for Kabutops.

You can find one for both Dory and Landlos easily,but then comes the Broken Trio.
Kingdra can't do much do Nattorei,but Ludi and Kabu handle him easily.
Ludi and Kabu are walled by Tentacruel,but Kingdra can handle him with Outrage.
Abomasnow threatens all,but them comes Zapdos/Toxicroak/hazards and screws him over.

So,you need around 2 -3 mons to counter them all just to stand a chance,but most of the stuff that counters rain teams,can't handle Sand teams very well.
So,that's 1 -2 slots for Sand,2 - 3 for Rain,and your only left with a maximum of 3 slots to spare,which you would probably use for more counters because there's still Rankurusu,Roobushin,etc.

Balance is made unviable.
1 mon like Skarm,Gliscor,Balloon Terakion/etc. can handle both Dory and Landlos,but you NEED 2 - 3 to handle those well-built rain teams.
You can argue it needs a good player to play rain,but you don't.
It basically goes like this:
1.Kill Water Absorb/4x water resist mons(Which aren't many)
2.Switch accordingly to handle walls.
3.Spam Specs Hydro Pump/Set up DD and spam Outrage.
4.Click "Find Battle" again.

It's disgustingly easy and doesn't really take much skill.
You only need skill against Sand teams,other Rain teams,or teams with a crapton of rain counters.

I've used it myself when I was higher up in the ladder.(Dropped down due to testing different sets on my original team)
 
Ala said:
You continue to say rain is broken, but never say why it is broken. I don't care if 99% of people hate facing rain, nobody is forcing you to play this gen. If you don't like it, then stop playing. I do this for enjoyment and I'm sure many others do as well, but I don't like the fact that some people have gotten lazy and just ban anything remotely hard to deal with. Banning rain should be something major as it is a staple in this metagame, so I feel we should give it a few tests before deciding whether it is broken or not. You simply can't know if it actually is broken a month into
the game.
Click to expand...

Why is rain broken? Several reasons:
1. Many Pokemon receive a speed boost under rain andthat makes them nearly impossible to revenge kill. Outside of changing the weather, there is no other way to catch up to rain sweepers.
2. The Power level is atrocious. An additional STAB boost (on top of the speed boost) is too much. Specs Kingdra in the rain is a joke to face. It 3HKOes Nattorei.
3. You are FORCED TO RUN YOUR OWN WEATHER TO BEAT RAIN. This is the worst part about rain, because you cannot beat rain without running your own weather starter. This is a huge problem! It overcentralizes the metagame, and its just not fun.

I don't need to play for several months to realize that rain is broken. Because it is. I don't solely rely on my opinion, I specifically asked several others if they thought rain was broken. I made sure to read the entire thread. The overwhelming majority (imo) found that rain was broken. No amount of playing can change that.

YOU have fun against rain because your team doesn't have problems with rain. I guarantee that you run your own weather / and or have abused rain. It has blinded to you rains brokeness imo. It seems you have forgotten that gen 5 has introduced 100+ new pokemon and several hundred of the previous gens got buffed. I WANT to use and test out various Pokemon, I don't want to play with/against the same pokemon.


Don't give me that, I've been around long enough to know what is broken and what isn't. Since you mentioned them though, you also know that it took months and months to ban those suspects. Months and months of testing them. Yet you want to ban rain in an entirely new metagame in a month. This is a little different than the previous gen 5 bans because it affects so many pokemon and their usage. This is a major decision. I don't think we should just ban it on a whim because "players hate facing rain."
Click to expand...

Please read this thread. Smogon was working the kinks out of the suspect testing progress and the fact that it took so long to ban said suspects was a BAD thing.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78764

I'm curious to see what your opinion on Garchomps, Salamences and Latias' banning.


You do need some checks to rain, but you also need checks to sand, ranku, dragons, nattorei, sun, and every other threat in the game. Requiring checks to something doesn't automatically make it broken. Weather is a huge part of this game now and I sincerely think if we ban rain right now we are making a mistake.
Click to expand...

I can check sand, rank, dragons, nattorei(?) without dedicating half my team (and thus limiting my teambuilding options) to check rain, I need a weather starter at least. I cannot beat rain otherwise. Its impossible.

I don't have an opinion against sun (I rarely play against them) and Landlos is blatantly broken so I i'm not going to talk about him.


As for your comment about the Inconsistent vote, I explained several times my thoughts on it (which I didn't have to do, by the way). I am a good player, there is a reason I have this check and got reqs. I don't have to explain my opinion on it to you or anyone. I have a right to an opinion and I will use it. I don't have to follow the crowd if I don't want to, and it certainly should not be brought up regarding my "position to argue."
Click to expand...

I honestly couldn't care less about your battling prowess or your checkmark. I care about your judgement which I seriously question. Inconsistent wasn't a problem for you, this tells me 2 things:
A) You ran several checks to beat it
B) You were lucky

Either way it shows that you don't give a damn about 99% of the other players who found Inconsistent to be gamebreaking. Even if my team destroyed inconsistent users, I would vote it Uber because I knew others had trouble with it, and or I had to run several checks to beat it.

Honestly, its the same thing with rain. You can't see how broken rain is despite everyone telling you otherwise.
 
Ala said:
I literally just gave you an example on the last page, yet you ignore it and continue to post this nonsense. Do you think people will take you seriously? Also, the logic of "show me why it's not broken" is incredibly flawed. If anything, it should be the other way around. We should be trying to prevent bans unless ABSOLUTELY necessary. Maybe it's time you give some real reasons as to why it is broken other than people hate playing against it and the big 3.
Click to expand...
What other reason do you need? TR, really? You can't seriously be suggesting that TR is viable outside of countering Rain. Come on, man. Dedicated wals have also proven to be less than ideal when facing well-built rain teams, since they can't usually take hits from the Drizzle pokes' coverage moves or the other members' hits from the opposite side of the spectrum. Oh yeah, counter rain with other weather. Sun, I kinda don't even want to talk about this, as Ninetales will die to a rain team faster than you can blink. Sand is clearly not suited to take specs wate-type attacks or set up Sand consistently against rain pokes, such as Kingdra, Toxicroak, or any shell smasher
 
Ala said:
I literally just gave you an example on the last page, yet you ignore it and continue to post this nonsense. Do you think people will take you seriously? Also, the logic of "show me why it's not broken" is incredibly flawed. If anything, it should be the other way around. We should be trying to prevent bans unless ABSOLUTELY necessary. Maybe it's time you give some real reasons as to why it is broken other than people hate playing against it and the big 3.
Click to expand...

You see these 44 pages?
Ya,well most of them are FILLED with posts explaining Drizzle's brokenness.
Look em up.
 
Kefka the god of magic said:
The problem is,you need too many checks and counters for one team to handle.

You NEED a counter for Dory.
You NEED a counter for Landlos.
You NEED a counter for Kingdra.
You NEED a counter for Ludicolo.
You NEED a counter for Kabutops.
Click to expand...

You can't use this as an argument. You NEED counters for things like Latios, Chomp, Blaziken, Ulgamoth, and many other things, its simply a fact of teambuilding. If anything the fact that countering every threat in Gen V is impossible is quite likely. There is nothing to say that some threats should be given consideration as broken for this reason unless they themselves are inherently broken, not just because a lot of counters are needed for things.
 
Benlisted said:
You can't use this as an argument. You NEED counters for things like Latios, Chomp, Blaziken, Ulgamoth, and many other things, its simply a fact of teambuilding. If anything the fact that countering every threat in Gen V is impossible is quite likely. There is nothing to say that some threats should be given consideration as broken for this reason unless they themselves are inherently broken, not just because a lot of counters are needed for things.
Click to expand...
You need checks for those kinds of pokes, but nothing can really "check" a poke like Kingdra or Doryuuzu without being used specifically to do so and used for tat purpose alone
 
Benlisted said:
You can't use this as an argument. You NEED counters for things like Latios, Chomp, Blaziken, Ulgamoth, and many other things, its simply a fact of teambuilding. If anything the fact that countering every threat in Gen V is impossible is quite likely. There is nothing to say that some threats should be given consideration as broken for this reason unless they themselves are inherently broken, not just because a lot of counters are needed for things.
Click to expand...

Thing is,at least the Dory/Landlos counters aren't useless outside of countering them and you don't really need more than 1 counter for them. Unlike rain.


Check this out:
(22:35:37) Rain team user: ScarfToed/LO Ludicolo/Specs Kingdra/SD Toxicroak/SR Nattorei/Band Terakion
(22:36:28)Rain team user: Terakion deals with **** like ******* Tyranitar and Abomasnow.
(22:36:36) Kefka Palazzo: how do I counter rain without using Obamasnow or a gimmick like Hail Tentacruel?
(22:36:42) Rain team user: You don't.
(22:36:46) Kefka Palazzo: Awesome
(22:36:53) Rain team user: Use Sunny Day Erufuun.
(22:37:01) Kefka Palazzo: That's horrid
(22:37:04) Rain team user: Yes, yes it is.
(22:37:06) Kefka Palazzo: *BAM* Ice beam
(22:37:07) Rain team user: But you wanted a counter.
(22:37:11) Rain team: I gave you one.
(22:37:55) Kefka Palazzo: Banning Drizzle would be nice
(22:38:08) JonathanRP-Ranking: use rain dance luvdisc
(22:38:09) Rain team user: You act as if it's not already going to get banned.
(22:38:39) Rain team user: If you check the last Suspect thread, along with the current one, it's a pretty good vibe that Drizzle is getting banned this Suspect test.
(22:38:41) JonathanRP-Ranking: just use a fast swift swimmer
(22:38:44) JonathanRP-Ranking: that knows hail
(22:38:45) Kefka Palazzo: I know
(22:38:50) Kefka Palazzo: I post in it
(22:38:59) Kefka Palazzo: That'll be useless for everything else
(22:39:06) JonathanRP-Ranking: lol
(22:39:07) JonathanRP-Ranking: true

>.>
Right now,people just abuse it to win nearly every battle until it hopefully gets banned.
Like wtf.
 
Capped out at rank 6 tonight(only 1394 points though) trying to get to 1500 is a hell of a job it seems like.

Anyways, rain hasn't been much of a problem for me yet but apparently everyone else thinks it is.
 
Kefka the god of magic said:
Thing is,at least the Dory/Landlos counters aren't useless outside of countering them and you don't really need more than 1 counter for them. Unlike rain.
Click to expand...

Nattorei counters Kingdra and is not useless. Kabutops and Ludi have similar counters. Individually, each Rain sweeper can be countered, just as the SS ones like you mention can be. Also, you do need a counter for each pokemon that is a threat in most cases, part of constructing a good team is not using pokes with overlapping counters. Why should Rain be different?
 
Benlisted said:
Nattorei counters Kingdra and is not useless. Kabutops and Ludi have similar counters. Individually, each Rain sweeper can be countered, just as the SS ones like you mention can be. Also, you do need a counter for each pokemon that is a threat in most cases, part of constructing a good team is not using pokes with overlapping counters. Why should Rain be different?
Click to expand...

So,everyone HAS to run Nattorei/Abomasnow/*insert gimmicky set here* to handle rain?
There's no variety and it makes balance unviable.
 
Kefka the god of magic said:
The problem is,you need too many checks and counters for one team to handle.

You NEED a counter for Dory.
You NEED a counter for Landlos.
You NEED a counter for Kingdra.
You NEED a counter for Ludicolo.
You NEED a counter for Kabutops.

You can find one for both Dory and Landlos easily,but then comes the Broken Trio.
Kingdra can't do much do Nattorei,but Ludi and Kabu handle him easily.
Ludi and Kabu are walled by Tentacruel,but Kingdra can handle him with Outrage.
Abomasnow threatens all,but them comes Zapdos/Toxicroak/hazards and screws him over.

So,you need around 2 -3 mons to counter them all just to stand a chance,but most of the stuff that counters rain teams,can't handle Sand teams very well.
So,that's 1 -2 slots for Sand,2 - 3 for Rain,and your only left with a maximum of 3 slots to spare,which you would probably use for more counters because there's still Rankurusu,Roobushin,etc.

Balance is made unviable.
1 mon like Skarm,Gliscor,Balloon Terakion/etc. can handle both Dory and Landlos,but you NEED 2 - 3 to handle those well-built rain teams.
You can argue it needs a good player to play rain,but you don't.
It basically goes like this:
1.Kill Water Absorb/4x water resist mons(Which aren't many)
2.Switch accordingly to handle walls.
3.Spam Specs Hydro Pump/Set up DD and spam Outrage.
4.Click "Find Battle" again.

It's disgustingly easy and doesn't really take much skill.
You only need skill against Sand teams,other Rain teams,or teams with a crapton of rain counters.

I've used it myself when I was higher up in the ladder.(Dropped down due to testing different sets on my original team)
Click to expand...
strange how despite having 2 use my dory on 4 out of those 5 i'm still successful so no u don't need a full counter for them.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top