Ah, but what if Floatzel, Poliwrath, Qwilfish also prove to be broken as well? Ban them too? After all, no one would have seriously considered Ludicolo for Ubers before permanent weather. I live to see the day Floatzel will be called Uber, lol.
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?
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Ah, but what if Floatzel, Poliwrath, Qwilfish also prove to be broken as well? Ban them too? After all, no one would have seriously considered Ludicolo for Ubers before permanent weather. I live to see the day Floatzel will be called Uber, lol.
Simple answer, they won't. They are so frail and so underwhelming, power-wise that even with Perma-rain, they aren't that good. That being said, just ban Drizzle, it eliminates any chance of these SS bans later on
Funny how some people like to look back at UU 4th gen and note the Damp rock suspect vote without actually linking to some suspect threads about it, which I find interesting because its essentially THE SAME split we have now only far less cluttered:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66825
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63880
^last pages would be more relevant.
What is also interesting is there was a "smog" post about the potential threat of rain dance sweepers (which generally include 2 of the 3 Pokemon now in debate here):
http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue8/rain_dance
Course this is a different metagame now because permanent rain is a whole lot different from 8 (or actually 7 or 6 turns at best) rain. Which I hope people do realize is a HUGE difference - as the idea of "stopping" rain becomes a whole different ball game since your switch ins will wear out.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66825
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63880
^last pages would be more relevant.
What is also interesting is there was a "smog" post about the potential threat of rain dance sweepers (which generally include 2 of the 3 Pokemon now in debate here):
http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue8/rain_dance
Course this is a different metagame now because permanent rain is a whole lot different from 8 (or actually 7 or 6 turns at best) rain. Which I hope people do realize is a HUGE difference - as the idea of "stopping" rain becomes a whole different ball game since your switch ins will wear out.
You obviously didn't read my posts as you are missing the main reason behind not banning the three sweepers.
They are not broken by themselves. That is the problem. You can't ban the pokemon if by itself it's not broken. Its how the team memberss have become glued together by drizzle.
Yes because a base 85 (same as Kingdra) Swift Swimmer with 95 base attack and Swords Dance that clears Toxic Spikes, can do the fastest D-Bond, soundly beats Erufuun/Abomasnow/Birijion, can potentially inflict Toxic poison pokemon, resists Mach/Bullet Punch and Aqua Jet is bad.
Or a 105 Atk and 85 Satk pokemon with 115 base speed that already does murder Landlos and Terakion without Rain or a boost and after one Bulk Up ohkoes Tyranitar for certain (and can ohko with Stealth Rock/other damage without), 2 hit koes Hippo, can ohko Gliscor, etc as well as surviving even better with Bulk Up and already outspeeding all of them is terrible. Also capable of 2 hit koing Burungeru with Crunch and punishing Dragonite in Rain.
Or Swift Swim Belly Drum. That is all that needs to be said because short of Burungeru and Ditto and/or something faster than it in Rain, you're doomed. Bulk Up is also a good set and it can Hypnotize and already resists all of Tyranitar's main moves with good defense and surviveability.
All I'm saying is that they are easier to counter
dahliasky said:
I read them, lol, it's just that I don't have a watertight answer for that one. That's probably the only thing that makes banning drizzle an idea worth considering.
What complicates things, however, is that the pokemon in question don't really get much play outside of Rain Dance teams. It's easy to look at something like Scizor, and see that it's not broken. Scizor is on all kinds of teams, and is powerful, but not unbalanced.
In the 5th gen metagame, we rarely see kingdra on other teams, and never see the unbroken side of kabutops and ludicolo. Mostly it's just the three of them going about, convincing everyone that drizzle is broken.
After a little thought, yeah, those pokemon in rain individually may not be broken. But here's how I look at it.
We could:
Ban 1 ability that is commonly abused for the ability to set up an easy to win-with team, while also purging any alternative uses for infinite rain.
or
Ban 3 pokemon that almost always are making drizzle broken, and for the most part, don't do much else in the metagame
From the perspective of past banning and everything, the former follows the precedent set by the support clause and the banning of Wobuffett last gen.
However, I feel like the second option will much better contribute to a healthy metagame, and seeing as how we've ALREADY thrown precedent into the shit-can by banning an ability, I don't see a big problem with it.
Yeah, too bad I'm not. The Support Characteristic has always been overly vague, and is designed to provide a reason for something like Wobbuffet to be banned. I honestly don't know what you're implying here. If you think that making it easier for a select few to sweep means it broken, then by all means tell me Magnezone is broken for making Garchomp, Salamence, and Lati@s's lives easier.
they have said it to you many times and now i will too 'cause you make me...don't speak for everyone!!!just don't!respect other people and their opinions...you have clearly seen that not anyone thinks that drizzletoad is broken yet you are telling to a guy that everyone things so...you are not everyone...stop acting so selfish and respect others...!
Banning Drizzle also doesn't get rid of rain. So while these pokemon are commonly all seen just on drizzle teams for now, that is only because drizzle is around. If drizzle is gone, it does not remove the viability of Rain Dance to create a temporary boost for your team to make those pokemon good.
Kingdra and Ludicolo commonly ran rain dance as the only user on their team because of their bulk/typing and ability to use the rain they made well.
This certainly won't get rid of rain. Waht other uses does infinate rain have? Stall? Don't make me laugh. Rain stall is a joke with or without drizzle and will be used by so few people that is can't be considered as a common playstyle.
Vaporeon does toxic stall... but that works just fine with wish+protect and toxic spikes down. Ludicolo uses sub seed... but even with rain dish its hard to get a bulky ludicolo out without getting 2hko, let alone that stall with it goes away if ttar or ninetails switch in and stop its heals.
You don't lose other methods of play by banning drizzle. You just make them require a normal amount of thought to play. I can think of how you can use rain dance on the staller to toxic stall out a pokemon, then switch out and switch in later to do it again at another point in the game. Its just as much work as avoiding taunt users with your stall.
It's not a viable method of play in either setting (drizzle or no), but if you want to use the stall it won't be gone outside of drizzle.
I'm not referring to a dedicated playstyle, such as rain stall. Rain stall is bad. I'm talking about being able to capitalize upon the benefits of rain without being confined into the sweeping mindset, as you are with rain dance. If you set up rain dance, you've probably got damp rock, so you've got 8 turns. You're gonna sweep. Other uses of rain dance are gimmicky at best.
Drizzle allows Toad to disrupt weather, provide a screen from fire attacks, boost the accuracy of thunder and gale, speed up SwiftSwimmers, boost water attacks, and give extra lefties to dry skin and rain dish pokes, all by switching in.
Other than the SwiftSwimmers, none of that is really worth a set up turn, as you have to switch in, then set up.
I'm not saying that Rain will be seriously successfully used without a swift swim pokemon. The ability is too good, and the rest of rain's options are kinda slim. But without drizzle, there are no other options. Everything else rain can do isn't worth the turn of set up, imo.
Drizzle allows Toad to disrupt weather, provide a screen from fire attacks, boost the accuracy of thunder and gale, speed up SwiftSwimmers, boost water attacks, and give extra lefties to dry skin and rain dish pokes, all by switching in.
Other than the SwiftSwimmers, none of that is really worth a set up turn, as you have to switch in, then set up.
I'm not saying that Rain will be seriously successfully used without a swift swim pokemon. The ability is too good, and the rest of rain's options are kinda slim. But without drizzle, there are no other options. Everything else rain can do isn't worth the turn of set up, imo.
I was referring to the same people he was, those of us making logical arguments
And if you ban the broken abusers (yes only the broken ones), Rain isn't worth using a teamslot for Politoed.
Bulky Rain Dancers like Uxie can disrupt other weather easily, and even use reflect or similar. There IS no other viable strategy beside sweeping with rain, no matter how many sweepers you take off the top.
Edit:
Bingo! hits the nail on the head.
Magnezone is worse now than ever with team preview. Even if he does his job of getting a steel type out, there's still many hurdles for these dragons. Hell, the first two can (and commonly do) carry fire and ground moves, meaning they can take care of steels all by themselves. Magnezone does little that a well crafted team can't do on its own. If Magnezone could automatically double these dragons' speed and power up their STAB attacks, then I would most certainly say he's broken under the support characteristic. As is, this is just another unfitting analogy.
i know i've heard people say this multiple times, but hasn't it already been stated to not use the previous gen's characteristic of a uber to select a uber for the current gen?
He wasn't, he was using a different example that someone else used and explaining why it wasn't applicable. He is in no way saying that those are or are not uber, just that those are the terms that would be required for Zone to compare to Drizzle.
No, it's a perfectly fine analogy since when he does his job, he makes it significantly easier for 4-5 other Pokemon to Sweep. Same thing with Politoed and Drizzle. How are either broken? I'll give you a hint: Neither of them are.
Meanwhile, you did nothing to say that Politoed does more than just provide a great field condition for a few, already broken, abusers of said condition to take full advantage of. You say Politoed doubles their speed and raises their STAB attacks, but Politoed isn't responsible. The rain is. And even if we ban Drizzle rain still exists. So, how is it that trying to subtract Drizzle from the metagame fixes these broken sweepers?
I wasn't the one who brought it up. But this is a fair point.
It probably would still be broken. There are still a whole host of Swift Swimmers who, although not good as the three mentioned, are still strong enough to sweep teams easily. Even if you get rid of all the Swift Swimmers, I'd start spamming stuff like Specs Starmie and still kill things easily (and I'll wait for Kerudio too).
Why is it infinite rain that breaks them? Infinite doesn't add an extra speed increase or power increase over 8-turn rain. When these sweepers are in Rain they are broken no matter what kind of Rain it is. Drizzle just makes it easier to keep rain on the field. But it's not the limitlessness of the Rain isn't what breaks them. That's an assumption made because of how few and far between good rain teams were last gen, and it's the kind of assumption that has been proven wrong because of how well these sweepers perform under a much higher level of scrutiny.
Yes, because we all fear the almighty power of Swift Swim Luvdisc.
A Pokemon isn't broken just because it has the capability of abusing Rain.
Alright, I'm going to ask a simple question, and I'd appreciate it if people didn't come in a complicate the question with their theorymon:
Why not ban Swift Swim?
All of these arguments I am seeing for why rain is "broken" come down to a few Pokemon that have blistering speed and overwhelming offense. It's the same problem with Doryuuzu as well. When the topic of banning these offensive threats is mentioned, it just derails down to mentioning that some other swift swimmers that "aren't as bad" will fill their shoes.
I'm not aware of any Swift Swimmer that doesn't have access to a secondary ability it can use, either by default or via Dream World (I haven't checked, but I'd assume my assumption is correct.)
I don't believe rain is broken, but I have no idea why people haven't mentioned this available compromise.
Why not ban Swift Swim?
All of these arguments I am seeing for why rain is "broken" come down to a few Pokemon that have blistering speed and overwhelming offense. It's the same problem with Doryuuzu as well. When the topic of banning these offensive threats is mentioned, it just derails down to mentioning that some other swift swimmers that "aren't as bad" will fill their shoes.
I'm not aware of any Swift Swimmer that doesn't have access to a secondary ability it can use, either by default or via Dream World (I haven't checked, but I'd assume my assumption is correct.)
I don't believe rain is broken, but I have no idea why people haven't mentioned this available compromise.
Because of Luvdisc. And Lumineon. And the fact that many of the Swift Swimmers aren't broken.
We need to get out of this mentality that we need to ban an ability just because we can. Ban the things that are broken and be done with it. If it means banning three Pokemon rather than banning one ability and nerfing a play style to kingdom come, then so be it.
This simply isn't true at all, but it's cute that you think that. Stalling out eight turns of rain isn't too bad at all, and it really limits how effective the team is with constant shuffling and setting up. It limits movepools and options. To say that these pokemon are the exact same with a damp rock and drizzle is nothing short of idiotic. I faced rain teams last gen, good ones too, and it was nothing like it is under drizzle.
This was suggested in this very thread if you had bothered to read it. The problem is that not all swift swimmers are broken, meaning a blanket ban shouldn't take place. The problem lies in either individual pokemon or drizzle itself. That's what's on the chopping block.
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