np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

[Princess Bubblegum]

Comparing Tyranitar to Ho-oh strikes a critical nerve, what is Uber? For generations Ubers was determined by "over 600 stats, and it doesn't have a negative nature." Now this gen, it the difernition was broadened, because Kyurem was determined to be OU worthy, becuase it just sucks movepool and type wise. While I disagree with this notion, it does have its points, becuase Kyurem absolutely sucked in Uber, and was no where near banable in OU.

I still stand by the basic notion though, that Uber pokemon are pokemon with absurdly high stats and movepools, and honestly OU players don't want to play with them, they are just too good. For example, Rayquazza last gen might of been borderline not broken in OU, but does that matter? Its breaks the basic notion of what is OU, no one wants to play with Rayquazza in standard, they just don't. Thats why we have an Uber banlist, it just pokemon that people don't want to play with it.

Theorically nothing is banned, becuase Ubers in the top tier, and we are just playing in a lower tier. But I still has issues with that idea though since is Ubers was on offical tier, pokemon used there commonly like Blissey and Forretress, would be brought up to Uber, and most OU players don't want that. becuase such pokemon define what it is to be a standard pokemon.

Overall, I fell there are 3 kinds of pokemon, Ubers which just don't belong in standard, OU whichare good pokemon, and pokemon that are pokemon banned from OU becuase they are broken there.

That being said, Tyranitar is a good OU pokemon, its not broken, and its not Uber worthy with those (in the Uber point of view) bad stats. I know this is a bit baised, but I stand by it, Tyranitar is an OU pokemon, while Ho-oh just isn't.

 

[XienZo]

For example, Rayquazza last gen might of been borderline not broken in OU, but does that matter? Its breaks the basic notion of what is OU, no one wants to play with Rayquazza in standard, they just don't. Thats why we have an Uber banlist, it just pokemon that people don't want to play with it.

Wait...... what?

It's a freaking super-Salamence. Of course it'd be broken in 4th gen OU.

And I'm pretty sure we play OU instead of Uber to avoid the massive centralization in Uber, rather than to follow some preconceived notion of what "OU should be".

There's no such thing as "belong" or "should".

OU players don't like excessive centralization, and Uber pokemon over-centralize (what is it, nearly 50% Kyogre use?). Nothing about what "should" be Uber and not.

 

[jas61292]

I still stand by the basic notion though, that Uber pokemon are pokemon with absurdly high stats and movepools, and honestly OU players don't want to play with them, they are just too good. For example, Rayquazza last gen might of been borderline not broken in OU, but does that matter? Its breaks the basic notion of what is OU, no one wants to play with Rayquazza in standard, they just don't. Thats why we have an Uber banlist, it just pokemon that people don't want to play with it.

Theorically nothing is banned, becuase Ubers in the top tier, and we are just playing in a lower tier. But I still has issues with that idea though since is Ubers was on offical tier, pokemon used there commonly like Blissey and Forretress, would be brought up to Uber, and most OU players don't want that. becuase such pokemon define what it is to be a standard pokemon.

That being said, Tyranitar is a good OU pokemon, its not broken, and its not Uber worthy with those (in the Uber point of view) bad stats. I know this is a bit baised, but I stand by it, Tyranitar is an OU pokemon, while Ho-oh just isn't.

While I agree with your conclusions, I must say I disagree on your reasoning. Uber Pokemon are Uber because they are just too good for the OU environment and make it boring, not fun, and completely overcentralized. Ever notice how in Ubers where nothing is banned, you actually have the lowest variety of Pokemon used. Its because they are just so good. Now there are some Ubers, such as guys who get voted in later, who may not be so overly centralizing in an Ubers environment, but they are too good for OU, or at the very least make OU not enjoyable.

T-Tar fits neither of those descriptions imo, and should not be Uber. However I don't think there is a mythical/sacred 670+ BST line that makes someone automatically Uber.

Oh, and one other little nitpick, technically, Ubers is not the highest tier, cause it is really just a ban list. OU is the highest actual tier. Ubers is just played because it is the only way people can use certain thing.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

If I remember correctly, last gen Rayquazza was tested a bit in OU, on the suspect ladder, and wasn't proven to be either broken or centralizing, I don't remember the exact thread though, and it was some time ago, so I might be completely wrong. Never the less, Uber pokemon to have the potential to be not broken in OU, some not even centralizing.

 

[Forsety]

because Kyurem was determined to be OU worthy, becuase it just sucks movepool and type wise.

Type maybe? Movepool people need their heads checked, its got perfect coverage.

 

[shrang]

So you've convinced me that Tyranitar is a really good Pokemon. And that's about it. What exactly is so wrong with that? How is it detrimental to the metagame?

If that's all I've convinced you, then so be it. I'm merely pulling Tyranitar's trapping abilities and general power into question. If you ask me why it's so detrimental, I have basically two reasons:

1) It removes key targets too easily, allowing a bucketload of Pokemon to be able to sweep with much higher fluidity.
2) In the weather battles now (where keeping your weather can easily mean winning and losing), Tyranitar makes keeping Sand up WAY too easy just by how easily it can dick with the other weather inducers (again not even Politoed is safe, see my earlier post).

I am also curious, however, if the response I have gotten for raising this point stemming from "Well of course Tyranitar isn't broken because it simply isn't, followed by <reasoning>", or merely "Well of course Tyranitar isn't broken because it's always been OU and we've gotten used to it". If it's the first, I would to see what is in <reasoning>, and second is not an excuse to not ban Tyranitar.

And I'm pretty sure we play OU instead of Uber to avoid the massive centralization in Uber, rather than to follow some preconceived notion of what "OU should be".

Kind of funny how Ubers is so much more diverse than OU right now, but I digress =P.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Eh, I think its movepool is meh, 2 stabs and stone edge, focus blast, and shadow ball, and some hidden power. But yeah its movepool isn't too aweful, still pretty bad for a pokemon with such great stats.

 

[jas61292]

1) It removes key targets too easily, allowing a bucketload of Pokemon to be able to sweep with much higher fluidity.
2) In the weather battles now (where keeping your weather can easily mean winning and losing), Tyranitar makes keeping Sand up WAY too easy just by how easily it can dick with the other weather inducers (again not even Politoed is safe, see my earlier post).

I am also curious, however, if the response I have gotten for raising this point stemming from "Well of course Tyranitar isn't broken because it simply isn't, followed by <reasoning>", or merely "Well of course Tyranitar isn't broken because it's always been OU and we've gotten used to it". If it's the first, I would to see what is in <reasoning>, and second is not an excuse to not ban Tyranitar.

So I will not dispute your first point. Its just a fact. However I have no problem with it. As for your the second point, I don't agree as much, especially with the Toed. Obviously whoever switches in last has the advantage with their weather, but Toed can easily 2HKO even in sand, and T-Tar really needs max offense to OHKO on even an offensive Toed. I could do more calcs, but as I there are so many sets for both i don't think it would be worth my time.

Additionally, as I said much earlier, I don't want to see guys get banned for weather inducing, however that was in response to people saying Drizzle is broken. Same thing goes for Sand Stream, let the metagame develop around the weather and then ban guys. Weather in and of itself is not broken, we just need to let the metagame re-centralize before we start banning things that it might break.

Finally, I am not going to just say this: "Well of course Tyranitar isn't broken because it simply isn't, followed by <reasoning>." Becuase the first part is stupid. However, I don't have much to say except that it is not broken because it can easily be countered, and while it does its jobs well, its not so good as to make it unfair. That's about all I can say. I mean, how would you argue any OU Poke is not broken? It just is not overpowering an can be countered. That's just about the only argument there is, but i believe it is true.

 

[shrang]

I completely agree with these sentiments. Please, to everyone that's comparing Tyranitar to Ho-oh, consider that Tyranitar itself is ridiculously easy to counter. The support it gives is hardly game breaking (Sand is nowhere near the best weather) and if it were then you would have to consider banning Hippowdon too.

Can we talk about something else, this thread is turning into shit. again.

*sigh* Can you please read the arguments before opening your mouth (or slaving away your fingers)? The amount of counters that Tyranitar has is completely irrelevant. Do they stop Tyranitar from Pursuiting your Latias, or Ninetales, or Politoed, or *insert Pokemon here*? Can Gliscor stop your Latias being trapped and killed? Can Garchomp stop Ninetales from getting the same fate? Sand is not the best weather, but again, because of Tyranitar, it is way too easy to keep up, and since the metagame is all about keeping the weather these days, this is vital. Again, I don't give a shit that it has a bucket-load of counters, if they don't stop Tyranitar from doing what it's meant to do, it doesn't mean crap. I think most of you missed the point when I compared it to Ho-Oh. Tyranitar is not a wall-breaker, we all know that. However, if you have a Pokemon that can so easily and efficiently do its job (trapping and weather inducing) that has Ho-oh-esque stats, we probably have a problem!

Obviously whoever switches in last has the advantage with their weather, but Toed can easily 2HKO even in sand, and T-Tar really needs max offense to OHKO on even an offensive Toed. I could do more calcs, but as I there are so many sets for both i don't think it would be worth my time.

I know Politoed is a bit safer than the others, but even then, if you switch in Tyranitar into Specs/Scarf Politoed using Ice Beam or something like that, you got yourself a mangled Politoed.

 

[SJCrew]

Timid 252 SpA Mewtwo's +1 Aura Sphere vs 252/252+ Tyranitar: 72.28% - 85.15%
while in return, 0 Atk neutral natured Tyranitar's Payback vs 0/0 Mewtwo: 86.69% - 101.98% - But I'll give this point to you anyway, since everyone runs Life Orb on Mewtwo these days anyway, I'm still in 4th gen Taunt/CM Mewtwo mentality

Your calcs are still off. Full Sp. Att Mewtwo does 79.2% - 94.1% to Sp. Def Tar without LO, and 103% - 121.8% with. Pretty sure most people are going to run LO if Mewtwo were allowed in OU because it kills everything. If not, Sub CM to dick everything over even further, which Tyranitar has no chance of stopping.

You've made your point that Tyranitar takes hits extraordinarily well under Sandstorm, but comparing it to a way better Pokemon who can kill most, if not all of OU with just its STABs doesn't put it on the same level. Tyranitar would probably be about as hard to beat as Ho-oh if its STABs had a higher base power, 50% chance to burn, and didn't have quite as many weaknesses. Even at 50%, Ho-oh is harder to beat than TTar.

Feel free to nominate it for OU testing if you want to put any of those theories to the test.

Do they stop Tyranitar from Pursuiting your Latias, or Ninetales, or Politoed, or *insert Pokemon here*?

No, but Will-o-Wisp does. Politoed not being locked into a move does. Deoxys-D and S setting up on him is a pretty big deterrent too. Since when did Reuniclus care about anything other than CBTar? Gengar will usually beat you if you're not Scarfed or Chople. If he's under a Sub, pray he misses twice. Tyranitar can Pursuit Latios, but only if it switches in on the right move.

It's not that easy to say "Tyranitar removes this list of Pokemon from the battle, letting others sweep" because that's just not how it plays in battle. Also, the list of things he can pursuit isn't that impressive to begin with, and a lot of conditions need to be met before he can remove a lot of those Pokemon. He needs to be like, CB/Scarf/Chople/Sp. Def. I don't even recall the last time my Ninetales was hit by Pursuit. But I can recall many, many times Tyranitar was burned by Will-o-Wisp, automatically rendering it useless.

 

[PK Gaming]

*sigh* Can you please read the arguments before opening your mouth (or slaving away your fingers)? The amount of counters that Tyranitar has is completely irrelevant. Do they stop Tyranitar from Pursuiting your Latias, or Ninetales, or Politoed, or *insert Pokemon here*? Sand is not the best weather, but again, because of Tyranitar, it is way to easy to keep up, and since the metagame is all about keeping the weather these days, this is vital. Again, I don't give a shit that it has a bucket-load of counters, if they don't stop Tyranitar from doing what it's meant to do, it doesn't mean crap. I think most of you missed the point when I compared it to Ho-Oh. Tyranitar is not a wall-breaker, we all know that. However, if you have a Pokemon that can so easily and efficiently do its job (trapping and weather inducing) that has Ho-oh-esque stats, we probably have a problem!

Cmon dude, please can we cut the expository banter? Tyranitar can pursuit Latias? So what. Its good at keeping the weather up and it gives buffs to several other pokemon. Again, so what? Ninetales & Politoad are hardly outright countered by Tyranitar either. The former can will-o-wisp on the pursuit and the latter can use Specs Hydro Pump (which does a ton even with sand stream special defense boost) Stats aren't everything. On paper Tyranitar looks like a god but in practice its bulk & atk are relevant. Its still plagued by a bad speed stat. There is no point to comparing to Ho-oh because Ho-oh is leagues better.

I don't think this is an opinion thats shared with the rest of the community. Sand & weather being a problem? Possibly. Tyranitar itself being a problem? Not likely. (Drizzle & Drought are a lot better than Sandstream anyway)

 

[shrang]

Cmon dude, please can we cut the expository banter? Tyranitar can pursuit Latias? So what. Its good at keeping the weather up and it gives buffs to several other pokemon. Again, so what? Ninetales & Politoad are hardly outright countered by Tyranitar either. The former can will-o-wisp on the pursuit and the latter can use Specs Hydro Pump (which does a ton even with sand stream special defense boost) Stats aren't everything. On paper Tyranitar looks like a god but in practice its bulk & atk are relevant. Its still plagued by a bad speed stat. There is no point to comparing to Ho-oh because Ho-oh is leagues better.

I don't think this is an opinion thats shared with the rest of the community. Sand & weather being a problem? Possibly. Tyranitar itself being a problem? Not likely.

You're the one who started the harsh talk o_0. Yes, Tyranitar can Pursuit Latias. With her out of the way, I compiled a list of potential sweepers that can sweep in her absence on the previous page (and there were a lot). You just lost your check to ton of sweepers, which is kind of important.

Ninetales still loses most of the time with Will-O-Wisp anyway (Pursuit still does >50% when you switch out of burned Tyranitar, and considering SR, you're probably not switching in again). Yes, I have a crippled Tyranitar, but on the other hand, my opponent has a virtually dead weather inducer. Sounds like a good trade to me. While yes, Tyranitar needs to be careful around Politoed, it can still catch it nonetheless ie your Specs Politoed won't want to be caught using Ice Beam or something like that if you don't want your Politoed losing a truck load of health to Pursuit.

Again, I know Ho-Oh is leagues better in what it does, which is exactly why it's banned. However, I'm saying Tyranitar can do its own job with the same degree of efficiency (not Ho-Oh's job), and this is primarily helped by the fact that its stats are better than Ho-Oh's, almost right across the board. The bad speed stat is irrelevant since it's not sweeping anyway (and I'm not arguing against sweeping Tyranitar).

 

[jas61292]

You're the one who started the harsh talk o_0. Yes, Tyranitar can Pursuit Latias. With her out of the way, I compiled a list of potential sweepers that can sweep in her absence on the previous page (and there were a lot). You just lost your check to ton of sweepers, which is kind of important.

If this was last gen, I might agree with that statement, but since we have team preview now, I don't. If you see you opponent has pokemon you can only stop with Latias, and a T-Tar, and you let your Lati get trap killed, then you lose, and that is not a function of Tar being broken. Now I don't run Latias, but the guys I do often use who hate pursuit (Starmie and Jellicent) can both beat T-Tar one on one, so I never have any problems with it.

But most importantly, while you have stated over and over that T-Tar can kill Latias opening the door for a sweep, you really haven't put out any other pokemon that by trapping them can completely change the battle. If Latias is the only one that is that important, than the argument is really pretty frail. T-Tar beats Latias. Woo Hoo. Magnezone beats Skarmory. Wobbuffet beats anyone in the right conditions. Beating one important opponent does not a Brokemon make.

 

[SJCrew]

Ninetales still loses most of the time with Will-O-Wisp anyway (Pursuit still does >50% when you switch out of burned Tyranitar, and considering SR, you're probably not switching in again).

What set are you assuming to where Tyranitar can Pursuit Ninetales for that much damage and the rest of the Pokemon on that list you posted earlier? Is he using CB to beat everything, or is he using five different sets to do five different jobs when you want to use examples for how powerful he can be? Tyranitar can do a lot of things, but not all in one set.

(Btw, burned CBTar only does 40.3% - 47.4% to a 252 Ninetales switching out of Pursuit. I guess you were assuming NP?)

While yes, Tyranitar needs to be careful around Politoed, it can still catch it nonetheless ie your Specs Politoed won't want to be caught using Ice Beam or something like that if you don't want your Politoed losing a truck load of health to Pursuit.

Dude. I use Surf almost all the time. Every time my Latios switches in on a Specs Toed, it gets hit by a Water type attack. The Ice Beam Pursuit never happens because Politoed is almost always A) hitting you with a Water type attack or B) using a support move. All of those are bad for Ttar. If Tyranitar is waiting for that convenient Ice Beam or Hidden Power to get a Pursuit in for massive damage, it's going to be waiting for a very long time while my Politoed drowns your team to death.

 

[shrang]

If this was last gen, I might agree with that statement, but since we have team preview now, I don't. If you see you opponent has pokemon you can only stop with Latias, and a T-Tar, and you let your Lati get trap killed, then you lose, and that is not a function of Tar being broken. Now I don't run Latias, but the guys I do often use who hate pursuit (Starmie and Jellicent) can both beat T-Tar one on one, so I never have any problems with it.

But most importantly, while you have stated over and over that T-Tar can kill Latias opening the door for a sweep, you really haven't put out any other pokemon that by trapping them can completely change the battle. If Latias is the only one that is that important, than the argument is really pretty frail. T-Tar beats Latias. Woo Hoo. Magnezone beats Skarmory. Wobbuffet beats anyone in the right conditions. Beating one important opponent does not a Brokemon make.

Enjoy:

Now, onto why I think Tyranitar fits the old "Support Characteristic". The best card in its deck is obviously Pursuit. While most people already know how good it is, I believe on Tyranitar it is too good. With Pursuit, it can easily wipe *insert slightly frail or Dark-weak special attacker that can't use a Fighting attack* off the map in a pinch while taking virtually nothing from the opponent's attack. Here's a list of very viable Pursuit susceptible Pokemon that can't do much to Tyranitar, next to them a list of sweepers/attackers that can easily thrive with their removal:

* - Depends on circumstances

Psychics:
-Latias (Virizion, Garchomp, Rotom-A, Suicune, Infernape, Terakion*, Mienshao, Ninetales, Celebi, Mew*, Kyurem*, Lilligant, Nidoking, Jolteon*, etc)
-Latios (See Latias)
-Celebi (debatable) (Breloom, Suicune, *sigh* you get my point)
-Slowbro (Wobb support needed, so I guess you can argue against Wobb here)
-Xatu
-Deoxys-D/S
-Espeon
-Victini (debatable)
-Reuniclus (Wobb support usually needed, too)
-Starmie (debatable)

Ghosts:
-Gengar (debatable)
-Dusclops (Again, may need Wobb support)
-Jellicent (Fast Tyranitars put Jellicent in a very awkward position)
-Chandelure

General special attackers and other Pokemon that can be Pursuited for the hell of it:
-Ninetales (debatable)
-Politoed (Scarf/Specs caught in the wrong move)
-Abomasnow (debatable)
-Jolteon
-Raikou
-Blissey
-Zapdos

What set are you assuming to where Tyranitar can Pursuit Ninetales for that much damage and the rest of the Pokemon on that list you posted earlier? Is he using CB to beat everything, or is he using five different sets to do five different jobs when you want to use examples for how powerful he can be? Tyranitar can do a lot of things, but not all in one set.

(Btw, burned CBTar only does 40.3% - 47.4% to a 252 Ninetales switching out of Pursuit. I guess you were assuming NP?)

I'm assuming whatever's standard these days, I suppose. Sure, you can stay in on Pursuit, but then you risk taking Stone Edge or something like that to face. Tyranitar puts Ninetales on the back-foot. 40.3-47.4% is still quite significant, especially if you factor in SR.

 

[PttP]

all that list showed me was 5 pokemon it takes out that matters and a lot that dont matter (shandera / jolteon) and then a shitload of "debatable" which can be used for a shitload of pokes. and im also in agreement with the guy saying that if you let you check die, its your fault or you/your team fucking suck.

 

[jas61292]

Ok, so lets remove things that are debatable or require support, because if they are, then they are not a hard argument.

That leaves: Lati@s, Xatu, Deo, Espy, Chandy, Jolt, Raikou, Blissey and Zapdos. Personally, I don't really agree with Raikou and Zapdos, sure you might hit them, but its not really significant enough to matter. Really to me, outside of the Latis, while it may beat the others, none of them are so central to a team to allow you to full sweep just because they are gone. Deo might be an exception, but Deo-S may go Uber itself, and sort of is the same as the others, and Deo-D just isn't used.

Basically, beating stuff is nice. And it is really good at it, but it doesn't make it broken just because it can beat a few important Pokemon.

 

[TheValkyries]

You can NOT judge a Pokemon based on how well it does in it's ideal situation.

T-Tar pursuit killing frail and/or Dark-weak Pokemon really well doesn't make him broken, it only makes him good at his job. He doesn't guarantee being able to take out most of the meta-game, which would be game-breaking. He only guarantees to take out a small subset of Pokemon. Even then it's no guarantee when it comes to some of those Pokemon.

Now if there's a sweeper that is only stopped by a Pokemon on the list of things T-Tar is guaranteed to stop and kill, then you'd have a better argument. But at that point, I'd be asking why we aren't banning the sweeper that is only stopped by things that can be so easily be taken out via the most basic of support.

Simply put, Shrang, you're bastardizing the Support Clause to say "If it does it's Job well, it's broken." Well, the same could be said of Blissey and her ability to wall Special threats, and a great many other Pokemon. If Pokemon didn't do their jobs well, we wouldn't use them on our teams in the first place.

 

[iDunno]

Okay, people should tell me WHY comparisons with Ho-Oh is ridiculous instead of telling me that it is ridiculous. Please use reasoning to back your claims. I have given you reasons why I believe it's legit.

I'm just going to say that Ho-Oh has disgusting coverage. That's really the main reason. Tyranitar's STAB combo is VERY easy to switch into; just switch in a Fighting-type or Steel-type and you're set (unless its mixed). Ho-Oh has two STABs that are amazing by themselves let alone together. Flying has retarded coverage, only being resisted by Steel, which is taken care of by Fire STAB, and Rock which can be easily dealt with with Earthquake. Furthermore, most things that can outspeed and KO Ho-Oh have a horrible time switching in. Plus, Ho-Oh has reliable recovery.

• Tyranitar can be switched into easily; Ho-Oh cannot. That is the difference between the two.

 

[Thorhammer]

I'm just going to say that Ho-Oh has disgusting coverage. That's really the main reason. Tyranitar's STAB combo is VERY easy to switch into; just switch in a Fighting-type or Steel-type and you're set (unless its mixed). Ho-Oh has two STABs that are amazing by themselves let alone together. Flying has retarded coverage, only being resisted by Steel, which is taken care of by Fire STAB, and Rock which can be easily dealt with with Earthquake. Furthermore, most things that can outspeed and KO Ho-Oh have a horrible time switching in. Plus, Ho-Oh has reliable recovery.

• Tyranitar can be switched into easily; Ho-Oh cannot. That is the difference between the two.

Flying is also resisted by Electric. But few Electric-types resist Fire, and most are weak to Ground.

Furthermore, Ho-oh's Fire moves do more than give it good coverage. Sacred Fire's burn chance is probably the most significant addition. No physical attacker can switch in without risking being crippled, and yet special attacks are useless because of its base 154 SpD. There's also Flame Charge, allowing Ho-oh to boost its Speed while hitting things with decent power, making it difficult to switch in and stop the setup.

So when you say Ho-oh can't be switched into easily, that doesn't mean just a bit of difficulty in finding something that can switch in; it means that switching into Ho-oh is completely ridiculous. Tyranitar has a wide movepool, but it isn't anywhere close to as threatening to its switchins.

 

[Ulevo]

You completely wall Tyranitars STAB combo just for being a Fighting type, or a Steel type. Both of which are fairly common.

 

[TheFourthChaser]

If you guys are really thinking about banning Tyranitar what you could do instead that would be a better choice is to just ban auto weather(expect maybe Abomasnow I guess?). The metagame is sounding way better that way than just banning TTar and making things easier for Politoed and Ninetales, things like Excadrill/Tornadus/Saur are not nearly as threatening and we won't have to deal with Garchomp misses anymore. We don't need to go through those stupid "I need to keep my weather mon alive" games to win anymore either. Sounds better already.

 

[Benlisted]

I'm assuming whatever's standard these days, I suppose. Sure, you can stay in on Pursuit, but then you risk taking Stone Edge or something like that to face. Tyranitar puts Ninetales on the back-foot. 40.3-47.4% is still quite significant, especially if you factor in SR.

In my response to your post I mentioned that one of Tales' best two sets according to our QC approved analysis has Sub, HP Fight and WoW, 252HP and Lefties. This set can burn TTar from behind the Sub, scout for its set, and if it doesn't outspeed and uses Pursuit and has no recovery it's safe to assume CB. Locking into Pursuit agains a sub firstly may not even break it but also lets Tales simply stall TTar out with HP Fight, which does 22.8-27.7% with no investment, which factoring in the Burn allows it to handily beat TTar if it chooses Pursuit. This is probably the set SJ is thinking about, as it is safe from all TTar.

The other first set is ChestoRest, which can still Burn TTar and can live a Pursuit and heal off the damage, though albeit is a bit screwed by CBTar in the long run.

I just wanted to clarify this, as the point that TTar>Tales is simply untrue.

 

[XienZo]

If that's all I've convinced you, then so be it. I'm merely pulling Tyranitar's trapping abilities and general power into question. If you ask me why it's so detrimental, I have basically two reasons:

1) It removes key targets too easily, allowing a bucketload of Pokemon to be able to sweep with much higher fluidity.

Isn't that what every good wallbreaker/trapper should do?

2) In the weather battles now (where keeping your weather can easily mean winning and losing), Tyranitar makes keeping Sand up WAY too easy just by how easily it can dick with the other weather inducers (again not even Politoed is safe, see my earlier post).

It doesn't become broken for just being "easy" to use, y'know. It makes Sand easy to get. Yay. And then... what?



I mean, it's easy to use. How is that actually detrimental? It's not like we're going:

"Oh, noes, this pokemon is FAR too easy to use! This convenience and utility, it's unprecedented! This-this EASE, it's so FOREIGN, it's not even really Pokemon anymore!"

 

[Zarco]

New to this kind of thread, but yeah I agree with banning auto-weather or banning Ttar only if we are going to ban anything at all.

Though Ttar is weak to water, he can easily switch into surfs and the like and kill something. Your logic is that fightings and steels resist his STABs, but who uses a Ttar w/o some coverage move, be it fire blast, ice beam, superpower, EQ, aqua tail, fire punch, etc.? He is 4x weak to fighting, but with a berry lives essentially any fighting move or just comes in on something else and sets up, then SWITCHES BACK OUT. In being able to do this, he destroys attempts at running weather against him (the others find switching in pretty hard on chomp and exca). I recently made a rain team that was consistent against non-weather, sun, and other rain, but even when I won the "keep my weather inducer alive" war, I still lost because Ttar can either kill your weather inducer, or use the sandstorm he sets up to let many sweepers set up and destroy your team. Hippowdon, for example is much easier to deal with on a rain team, he can't take even unboosted (by rain) surfs very well and can really only fill a bulky tank lead very well (and a bulky booster but its not as common or effective). Ttar also has unpredictability, which makes him hard to counter. Send in a steel on the switch to take the Stone Edge? Risk getting hit by a fire blast, or letting him set up (SR, DD, Curse, etc.). You can't afford the mispredict against those offenses, but Ttar always can on 100/110/100(x1.5) defenses.

Aside from that, we could also go the no weather route, as I feel teams have to run weather, or build the team around beating it, arguably overcentralization.