np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

[Woodchuck]

@Woodchuck: The complication is only partially true. The upper tiers are easier (where less things are banned) and the lower tiers (where a lot of things can't make it because of usage stats, meaning you avoid the need to make some of them). You're only going to need to address overwhelming combinations for bans, but I think if you really wanted to tier AND ability, it'd be quite easy to do. I think the computer could easily keep track of the amount of time a Pokemon is used with a certain ability although I can't confirm it. It seems easy if you can block someone from using ability/move combinations for illegality, imo.

It's not the viability of programming that concerns me, it's the fact that having such a complex banlist is ridiculous. A list of pokemon is easy enough to keep track of, but when you have over 650 pokemon (including formes), at least half of which are tiered based on different aspects such as abilities, you have such a ridiculous banlist that competitive pokemon becomes a farce rather than a clear game -- it basically becomes us nerfing whatever is more powerful than other things until we have a completely level playing field -- which believe it or not, is a bad thing. A ban list is a banlist, not a list of abstract restrictions on parts of pokemon that we have created so that we don't have to bother to check or counter anything. There's also the point that with so many complex restrictions, it will be that much harder to get into the metagame and to keep up -- it's already exasperating to deal with the restrictions caused by what genders are released in Dream World, etc.
This is even worse because the method that would be used to implement it, where the server decides what is legal and what isn't, means that you have to reload your team and reenter the tier every time you try to implement something new and find that you missed that restriction that bans Guts Conkeldurr from UU but not Iron Fist.

Someone explain to me where this logic comes from. I'm going to be a broken record by the end of the day (punt unintended). If the Pokemon is manageable without the ability, and the ability has also been given to other manageable pokemon, neither of them can be the problem. You have evidence that Blaziken is a manageable threat with Blaze and you have other Pokemon with Speed Boost who are manageable threats so it must be some combination of what the ability does and what the Pokemon does that's the problem.

Basically, see the above -- there is no good reason for complicating our banlist apart from the people who really like Blaziken and thus are dying to use it. Yes, variety is important, but it isn't more important than simplicity of ruleset -- or at least, isn't important enough to warrant complex bans.

 

[Yogi Bear.]

It's not the viability of programming that concerns me, it's the fact that having such a complex banlist is ridiculous. A list of pokemon is easy enough to keep track of, but when you have over 650 pokemon (including formes), at least half of which are tiered based on different aspects such as abilities, you have such a ridiculous banlist that competitive pokemon becomes a farce rather than a clear game -- it basically becomes us nerfing whatever is more powerful than other things until we have a completely level playing field -- which believe it or not, is a bad thing. A ban list is a banlist, not a list of abstract restrictions on parts of pokemon that we have created so that we don't have to bother to check or counter anything. There's also the point that with so many complex restrictions, it will be that much harder to get into the metagame and to keep up -- it's already exasperating to deal with the restrictions caused by what genders are released in Dream World, etc.
This is even worse because the method that would be used to implement it, where the server decides what is legal and what isn't, means that you have to reload your team and reenter the tier every time you try to implement something new and find that you missed that restriction that bans Guts Conkeldurr from UU but not Iron Fist.

This is the best reason I've heard yet, actually. I'm only considering this for OU (the offending tier) but I will admit I have no idea how this would work in the Middle Tiers where it would be the most complicated imo. I will admit that I have no clue how this would work on the larger scale, I have been simplifying to merely the OU tier.

 

[Tobes]

I don't really get why we're still arguing about this. What exactly are nerfs supposed to accomplish? All banning a Pokemon + Ability combination do is "save" a Pokemon from being banned, which is not something we should be attempting to do. The reason we tier off usage is to avoid opinionated tiering as much as possible, which these complex bans actively go against. Blaziken as a whole was found to be broken, so it'll be fine in UU if we nerf it a little bit, right?

And although I know slippery slope is a logical fallacy, the nerfs that are being discussed here invite this far more than Aldaron's proposal or the Moody ban do. But with something as simple as this where can we possibly draw the line? "I think Rayquaza has a really cool design, so maybe we should place EV and movepool restrictions on it so that I can use it in OU!" "I bet Toxicroak would be UU without Dry Skin, so let's place a combo ban of Dry Skin + Toxicroak in UU so I can use it there!" See how stupid that is? Allowing complex bans does nothing but hinder the tiering system, and even if no other complex bans would be done, just the clamoring for them in and of itself would be a severe annoyance. We have nothing to gain from these complex bans. The tiering system is in no way enhanced from allowing Blaziken sans Speed Boost to be in UU. Unless somebody can provide a very good reason for allowing a small-scale complex ban like this to be made I don't think we should even entertain the notion of them.

 

[KurashiDragon]

You shouldn't respond to someone in a quote. it makes it difficult for them to respond.

I'll admit it's easily more complex than anything that's been done. But it's one of the more efficient problem eliminating methods I can think of. All of the complaints in previous rounds have been people saying that Pokemon X would be manageable without Ability Y (Garchomp. Ken, Drill, SwSwers, etc.) or that the Pokemon was a collaboration of OP. If we can make it manageable, why not?

That's the thing though. Almost nobody said Pokemon X would be manageable without Ability/Move Y. Those that did were quickly silenced because almost nobody wants to do it that way. What is the reasoning behind a complex ban. To keep something inside a tier instead of putting it where it rightfully belongs. To me complex bans are nothing more than cheap ways of keeping your favorite thing inside a tier by eliminating some factors that make it broken. It doesn't matter if it's drizzle with swift swim or Blaziken with Speed Boost/High Jump Kick/Fire Blast (Those other 2 options are just as viable as speed Boost to be banned from Blaziken because they contribute to Blaziken being broken.) Complex bans are favoritism which is my personal peeve with it. Convince me there's a reason for Complex bans and maybe you can convince others.

Again, it's because of the complaints I've read. They say "Ability Y" is the thing pushing it over the edge. Given, we have no idea it's true because who's using Ability Z? Physically deconstructing a Pokemon to make it manageable is too much to do, and I think not only will it take too long to balance out. That's also not fair to the players to waste theit time balancing it. But for a quick fix like "Don't use that one ability in this tier" is easier to enforce and targets the thing that people are saying are the problems.

That's the thing though. People only look at the biggest contributing factor that makes a pokemon broken but that's not the only thing. There are other factors that make a pokemon broken. For instance in my paragraph above I stated that Speed Boost isn't the only factor in Blaziken's ban but Speed Boost in combination of it's offensive coverage and sets. You can just as easily say that Blaziken shouldn't use Fire Blast/High Jump Kick/Swords Dance. Not only that but sense those moves aren't as big a contributing factor as Speed Boost you may even be able to put Blaziken into OU instead of UU which is where it should be with said combinations. I'd like Blaziken to be in OU instead of UU so lets take away High Jump Kick and Fire Blast. That way it's mixed set and its Swords Dance set wont be nearly as broken and I can have it in a tier that I want it in. *Sarcasm* See what I did there. I decided the tiering of Blaziken by getting rid of something.

I can just as easily do that to Kyogre too. Let's get rid of All of it's water moves 95 BP and above as well as thunder and Calm Mind. It's within the boundries of the game because it's not editing Kyogre's stats or things like that however, it is allowing it to get into a lower tier.

Darkrai: Let's get rid of Dark Void and Nasty Plot

Skymin: Seed Flare, Air Slash, and Substitute

Garchomp: Substitute, Swords Dance, and Sand Veil w/ Sandstorm

I can keep going with this all day long. To every uber I can make OU by using a complex ban. To every OU, I can make UU with a Complex Ban

Dragonite: Draco Meter, Outrage, and Multi Scale

Tyranitar: Crunch, Pursuit, Dark Pulse, and Stone Edge (Also once its Dream World ability comes out SandStream can be banned with it as well)

Thundurus: Thunderbolt, Nasty Plot, and Taunt

I'm gonna end this now before I do every pokemon in UBER, OU, UU and RU. Basically I'm saying its a Slippery Slope. Usually I don't believe in Slippery Slope. I personally think its a load of BS. However, in this situation, even if you do mean well, the Slippery Slope argument is a very real threat because of the Favoritism in Complex Bans. It's pointless to do Complex Bans. I'll never find a reason to use Complex bans unless under very specific circumstances and even then I'll be against it.

You just have to convince them there is a reason. Which is exactly what I'm trying to do now.

 

[asdfrozen]

It's actually a lot simpler than that. Remember how Salamence was OU in RSE and then went Uber towards the end of DPP? What did he gain that made him Uber? Draco Meteor and Outrage. Why didn't we just complex ban one or both of those moves on Salamence?

 

[Baldafor]

This is the best reason I've heard yet, actually. I'm only considering this for OU (the offending tier) but I will admit I have no idea how this would work in the Middle Tiers where it would be the most complicated imo. I will admit that I have no clue how this would work on the larger scale, I have been simplifying to merely the OU tier.

Well, the server can handle all the banning and things for you. It just tells you when you make your team, "Hey, that's banned, use something else!"

I don't see how that affects team building or learning curve at all. Oh, I can't use Drizzle + Swift Swim, thanks Pokemon Online for letting me know!

 

[Downf4ll]

@Yogi wait, so what you're saying is you'd ban both Excadrill AND Sand Rush? That is certainly... different. Well, other than arguing competitive viability I don't see a problem with that.

Also, I guess I can break down the 3 biggest reasons why I oppose complex bans:

1. The classic "slippery slope" argument. Some people say that this is retarded, and that it would never happen, but I'm pretty sure SB + Blaziken was considered a "retarded slippery slope example" back before Aldaron's proposal. Also, Blaziken is the only one banned for it's ability because ST Chandy isn't here yet, so that'd probably make 3 complex bans to argue for, 3 too many to argue against this phenomenon.

2.Complexity. While I find it amusing that I'm arguing against complex bans because they're too complex, it's true. Imagine what it would be like, 3 generations from now, where many more exceptions arise akin to Blaziken due to DW? The ban list wouldn't be broken abilities, [insert generic 670+ BST pokes here] along with Garchomp and Garchomp-esque pokemon. It would be a monolithic clusterf@%k filled with x + y and z + s and a + b +c +... it'd be too much.

This isn't the same thing as the slippery slope argument, because this isn't a case of ban-happy people; just like how the ban list was much smaller gen 1 than it is now, if we start complex bans now there will be many more complex bans down the road generations from now, simply because we won't know what pokemon GameTroll will introduce. That, is probably the thing people like me are afraid of the most. I don't want to read a library just to know what I can and can't use in OU in 2020. I probably won't even play pokemon by then, but my point still stands for the people who will.

3. The purpose of tiering. The whole point is to play every pokemon at their absolute best, in order to be the best and if you have to do that with Blaziken in Ubers (where it certainly sees it's fair share of use) because it would be too damn broken in OU, then so be it. Yes it's true that most pokemon have diverse movepools, so using it at their peak performance is dependent on your team and how you view that pokemon, but in the end you're using it how you want to use it. A lot of people say that complex bans offer diversity, but the way I see it I'd rather not use a pokemon at all instead of being unable to use it the way I want to. If OU or UU introduce even one nerfed pokemon, I'd probably just quit both and go straight to Ubers.

I guess it all comes down to why complex bans aren't for efficiency's sake, it's like what Kurashi said; favouritism. It would work if smogon was a small community living in the same place, but not at this scale. Not at all.

 

[mien]

Pokemon Species + Ability/Move complex bans are out of the question.
The Suspect Test process is already taking long enough attempting to balance Generation V to a reasonable level, as such we're not going to waste our time attempting to make every Uber pokemon 'valuable' through another long and extremely tedious process.

Any post extending this pointless debate will be deleted.

 

[franky]

Let's change the topic to Sun teams. I find this style of play to be much more dominant in the ladder than tournaments. Its definitely a powerful style of play that offers pure offensive benefits- either Speed or Fire-attack boost or one turn Solarbeam with no drawbacks. Like most Sun teams that show success, they use Dugtrio in tandem to remove the oppositions weather starter, in most cases Tyranitar. I'd pretty much put Sun up to par with the other weather teams. Its a subjective comment but I just find myself slightly scared when I see sun on the team preview. A well-made team can take unprepared teams. The most viable Sun team formula at the moment is Dugtrio + Ninetales + Spinner and three sweepers. Sun needs more love, not saying I use it though.. but with proper structure, its just one of those teams that are hard to beat.

 

[ParaChomp]

Pokemon Species + Ability/Move complex bans are out of the question.
The Suspect Test process is already taking long enough attempting to balance Generation V to a reasonable level, as such we're not going to waste our time attempting to make every Uber pokemon 'valuable' through another long and extremely tedious process.

Any post extending this pointless debate will be deleted.

...and there you have it folks! However, I do see Drizzle + Swift Swim to be similar to this situation but I'm not going to go there.

Back to topic...I don't know where to start.

 

[WinstonShnozwick]

Let's change the topic to Sun teams. I find this style of play to be much more dominant in the ladder than tournaments. Its definitely a powerful style of play that offers pure offensive benefits- either Speed or Fire-attack boost or one turn Solarbeam with no drawbacks. Like most Sun teams that show success, they use Dugtrio in tandem to remove the oppositions weather starter, in most cases Tyranitar. I'd pretty much put Sun up to par with the other weather teams. Its a subjective comment but I just find myself slightly scared when I see sun on the team preview. A well-made team can take unprepared teams. The most viable Sun team formula at the moment is Dugtrio + Ninetales + Spinner and three sweepers. Sun needs more love, not saying I use it though.. but with proper structure, its just one of those teams that are hard to beat.

Sun is an oddball weather to me, down there with hail. I personally have never had much trouble with sun teams really besides volcarona occasionally if it gets a QD in. Maybe thats because I run Chandelure though, because base 145 SpAtk + Sun Boosted Fire Stab + switching in on a predicted fire attack for the Flash fire boost = one swept sun team. It's a fun style of team to play against, and if I may be so bold, I really must say that sun seems like the most balanced weather in the metagame, it's not too hard, and not too weak, you can lose to them if you dont play careful, but they have ways to be killed quickly.

 

[Tobes]

Sun is definitely an underrated playstyle. It is certainly on par with rain and sand, but also has the advantage of not being prepared for by more inexperienced players, which is why they're easier to use on the ladder than in major tournaments. Oddly enough, I think the root of Sun's success is in fact Venusaur, enough so that I think nearly every sun team should run him. The reason? His ability to easily threaten Tyranitar / Politoed. Getting a Growth off almost always forces the opponent's weather inducer in if they lack Heatran or Blissey/Chansey, so of course you can take advantage of that by using Energy Ball when they expect a Growth, etc. Venusaur just really puts pressure on rain and sand teams, especially with hazard support.

On the topic of Dugtrio, its very good, but unfortunately has trouble with Politoed, which is why some sun teams run Wobbuffet, giving them a much better method of removing Toed. I personally use Dugtrio since I feel the rest of my team can handle rain more easily than they can sand, and because trapping Heatran is incredibly useful for any sun team.

Sun teams also carry some interesting little niches. Volcarona is fucking scary in the sun and is generally worth the team support it requires. Morning Sun Quiver Dance is pretty damn near impossible to stop if you're not prepared for it. Chandelure finds a niche as the best spinblocker for sun teams. Sub LO and Scarf seem to be the best sets for it. Victreebel makes for an excellent mixed sweeper with Leaf Blade, and also gets Weather Ball, allowing it to run a Hidden Power of choice, usually Ice, sometimes Ground.

 

[Downf4ll]

I don't know Winston, to me Sun is more dependent on keeping their weather up than any other weather. This is also a major contributor to why sun kicks non-weather's ass (especially Hyper Offense non-weather) so hard.

Sun is really cool though, because of their dependency. It really makes ninetails valuable and (against other weather teams anyway) keeps you really focused on winning the weather war. While most people hate it, I find it a lot more complex than a weatherless metagame. Keeps you thinking, you know? That being said Sun vs. non-weather is really mind-numbing, and boring as hell (on both sides, even though Sun wins most of the time).

@mien Thank you.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

I definitely agree with you, franky. Sun teams can be very solid, but have two problems. First, fire is not a very good defensive typing and because of this, it's pretty hard to make sun teams have good defensive synergy. On the up side, they have nearly unmatched offensive capabilities and a wide variety of scary chlorophyll sweepers as well as sun fire STAB abusers.

Duggy really makes Tyranitar piss his pants, since one misprediction means he is dead (and the sand team as a whole is probably doomed). I personally don't like using Dugtrio because of its inability to switch into anything, but I've seen players use him with success. Unfortunately, Ninetales has issues dealing with Politoed and Hippowdon that invest in special defense, seeing as they can both switch in with near impunity (though neither of them like putting up with burn).

I think it's extremely important for every sun team to have some sort of defensive backbone to switch into wallbreakers like Specs Politoed and Latios. Chlorophyll sweepers alone aren't enough to counter Politoed -- uninvested Venusaur takes 62.5% - 73.8% from a Modest Specs boosted Hydro Pump from Poli. Calm Mind Latias is a great choice to take on strong water type special attackers like Politoed and Starmie, but beware of Ice Beam. Gastrodon can also deal with these guys pretty well, but beware of Specs Politoed's HP Grass.

Latios is a bit more tricky for sun teams to deal with since not many steel types can take a sun boosted Hidden Power Fire. Specially Defensive Heatran is a good switch, since sun removes his water weakness and can take Specs Draco Meteors very well. It can also set up Stealth Rock for sun teams.

 

[alphatron]

The two players who I know to consistently make voting requirements do not run dugtrio at all.

I run dugtrio. I even use pokemon that force tyranitars attention so that dugtrio can switch in. I even run momento on him so that he can be of use to me after killing heatran and t-tar.

I can say with complete certainty that dugtrio is not worth the teamslot at all. I ran into a rain team that used dugtrio for the same reason. Earthquake failed to kill my 248/0 Ninetales.

psp post limit.

Rain is the best thing a sun player can hope to face. Sun has the advantage in matchup. Why? Rain teams depend on the weather even more than sun does. Once rain is down, they have nuetered water attacks, 50% accurate thunders and hurricanes, and probably two steel types. Politoed NEEDs to keep rain up. He dies doing so.

 

[franky]

I definitely agree with you, franky. Sun teams can be very solid, but have two problems. First, fire is not a very good defensive typing and because of this, it's pretty hard to make sun teams have good defensive synergy. On the up side, they have nearly unmatched offensive capabilities and a wide variety of scary chlorophyll sweepers as well as sun fire STAB abusers.

Duggy really makes Tyranitar piss his pants, since one misprediction means he is dead (and the sand team as a whole is probably doomed). Unfortunately, Ninetales has issues dealing with Politoed and Hippowdon that invest in special defense, seeing as they can both switch in with near impunity (though neither of them like putting up with burn).

I think it's extremely important for every sun team to have some sort of defensive backbone to switch into wallbreakers like Specs Politoed and Latios. Chlorophyll sweepers alone aren't enough to counter Politoed -- uninvested Venusaur takes 62.5% - 73.8% from a Modest Specs boosted Hydro Pump from Poli. Calm Mind Latias is a great choice to take on strong water type special attackers like Politoed and Starmie, but beware of Ice Beam. Gastrodon can also deal with these guys pretty well, but beware of Specs Politoed's HP Grass.

Latios is a bit more tricky for sun teams to deal with since not many steel types can take a sun boosted Hidden Power Fire. Specially Defensive Heatran is a good switch, since sun removes his water weakness and can take Specs Draco Meteors very well. It can also set up Stealth Rock for sun teams.

That's actually quite true.. there are many variation sun teams, ranging from heavy offense to balanced. I was speaking for heavy offensive sun teams that care less about powerful sweepers because they use their speed and high powered attacks to plow through teams. Balanced Sun also works out and is quite effective for tournament matches. Gastradon, Heatran, and even Forretress make excellent choices for more balanced Sun teams. However, offensive sun teams care very little about taking hits and countering stuff because Speed and high-powered moves make up for the lack of checks/counters for many things, much like your typical heavy offense team. You're spot on with Latios though because that is a difficult Pokemon to counter under Sun.

 

[Smurf.]

I think sun is at a fundamental disadvantage in terms of winning the 'weather war' so to speak due to ninetales' typing. Being weak to SR and common moves on both sand and rain teams severely limits its longevity in comparison with Tyranitar and Toed respectively. Even under sun it still takes enormous damage from water attacks from the likes of rotom-w, vap and such. Dugtrio attempts to counteract this but one wrong predict and its over, not to mention its relatively ineffective against toed. If I were to use a Sand team and saw duggy on an opposing sun team i would play very, very carefully with TTar. That said, however, with sun up Hyper offense sun teams are extremely dangerous, with sawsbuck and morning sun volcarona.

 

[Pocket]

I can say with complete certainty that dugtrio is not worth the teamslot at all. I ran into a rain team that used dugtrio for the same reason. Earthquake failed to kill my 248/0 Ninetales.

A Jolly LO EQ Dugtrio should OHKO that Ninetales. I don't see any reason to use Duggy without LO, since it is weak with its 80 base attack, and it is already faster than Scarftar.

Dugtrio seems to be a better trapper for Rain Teams than for Sun. I wonder why most Rain Teams don't bother to trap the opposing weather as much as Sun does.

 

[Nkululeko]

Sun will always be at a disadvantage to other weathers, period. The reason is simply Ninetails. I messed around with a sun team once and it did meh on the ladder but there were consistent issues.

1)Ninetails is weak to all hazards
2)Unless you use CM with Energy Ball or probably specs, you can't reliably beat Politoed and you pretty much can never beat Ttar so your team is forced to switch around to try and keep Tails alive, which is hard because of reason 1

 

[Pocket]

Also, is there any reason to use Energy Ball over Giga Drain on Venusaur? Giga Drain seems far superior than Energy Ball, which is only 6% stronger. I also noticed someone on UU recommending Energy Ball instead on Sceptile

 

[Requiem[9]]

A Jolly LO EQ Dugtrio should OHKO that Ninetales. I don't see any reason to use Duggy without LO, since it is weak with its 80 base attack, and it is already faster than Scarftar.

Dugtrio seems to be a better trapper for Rain Teams than for Sun. I wonder why most Rain Teams don't bother to trap the opposing weather as much as Sun does.

The absolute biggest draw of rain, that more people seem to have realized, isn't abusing it, it's having a functional team regardless of the weather. That's why Tornadus's usage has gone down. Rain's main "abusers" are pokemon like Starmie, Thundurus, and Rotom-W who are just solid pokemon that happen to have electric or water STAB and are completely functional outside of rain, and freedom from Excadrill and Sawsbuck gives pokemon like Terrakion more room. I'm not sure it's even a good idea to run Thunder as the primary STAB on anything but Thundurus. With such teams, winning the weather war isn't about actually keeping Politoad alive but gaining enough of an advantage in other areas in the fight to take the game. I'm not saying that aggressive, abusive rain teams aren't viable, because they are, but when you're sacrificing pokemon to win the weather war it feels like you're just conceding a major advantage of the weather. On the other hand, with sun, Ninetales is such a mediocre pokemon and sun is such a random, uncomfortable weather -- by which I mean, in using it, you open yourself to such a range of abusers and support an attacking type whose users are much more volatile than most waters -- that abusing it is mandatory and teams almost have to be built in a "win the weather war, win the game" mindset; which is where Dugtrio comes in. That it gets rid of Heatran for Volcarona and Venusaur is a pretty important perk too, where it doesn't really do anything comparable for rain.

 

[Tobes]

Also, is there any reason to use Energy Ball over Giga Drain? Giga Drain seems far superior than Energy Ball, which is only 6% stronger. I also noticed someone on UU recommending Energy Ball instead.

If you're referring to Venusaur, sadly both Giga Drain and Power Whip are illegal with Chlorophyll, since Giga Drain is not a Gen V TM and Power Whip is a breeding move, and Dream World Bulbasaur is an exclusively male event Pokemon. Giga Drain would undoubtedly be used over Energy Ball if it was legal.

 

[goblueSD]

Sorry if this is too obvious, but an interesting weakness of rain teams is that the Swift Swimmers can come back to bite them in the ass. Sun and Sand are allowed to use their fast Sand Rush and Chlorophyl sweepers but rain does not have that luxury anymore. Once Ferro is gone from a lot of Rain teams LO Kingdra can do some serious damage. LO Kingdra is a good poke on its own but with rain up it becomes that much more dangerous. Things like Thunderus Starmie, and Scarf Rotom-W which are used to being the fastest things in the rain are now easily outsped and hurt by Hydro Pump/DM/Outrage etc. SS Kingdra makes a nice check to some of rains more dangerous sweepers without having to use a scarfer and also gives you that sexy 4x resist to water without being raped by rains coverage moves (grass, ice, electric). It isn't by any means the destroyer of all rain teams as ferro can still wall it to hell and back but it helps against the offensive pokemon in rain. I haven't had any experience using any other Swift Swimmer as a rain counter but I'm sure Kabutops or Ludicolo could be of use in a similar way.

 

[alphatron]

Here's the problem. Outside of defensive heatran and forretress, toed can't reliably switch into any pokemon on a sun team at all. No, do not switch toed into Ninetales. Especially if you're running specs toed. +2 energy ball from Ninetales is death with SR.
Meanwhile. Tales switches in on ferro, forry, sp. def scizor, and even the water types if specially bulky.

No giga drain on venusuar pocket. Egg move. Male only. Don't make me hurt you. No one says to use eb over giga. ;_;

Post limit.

Don't look at weather wars as inducers against inducers. Look at them as a team. Tyranitar can switch into many of the pokes on sun teams with ease. That's what makes our matchup bad. But politoed can't even switch into Ninetales without taking too much damage. Most rain players will try to use smart switching to get poli in. If I had a penny for every log I saved where ferro tries and fails to bait an hp fire so poli can come in on venu, I'd have 32 cents. Trust me. Rain is not a bad fight.

 

[Katakiri]

because trapping Heatran is incredibly useful for any sun team.

Heatwho?

Volcarona is fucking scary in the sun and is generally worth the team support it requires. Morning Sun Quiver Dance is pretty damn near impossible to stop if you're not prepared for it.

Volcawhat?

Sun is an oddball weather to me, down there with hail. I personally have never had much trouble with sun teams really besides volcarona occasionally if it gets a QD in. Maybe thats because I run Chandelure though, because base 145 SpAtk + Sun Boosted Fire Stab + switching in on a predicted fire attack for the Flash fire boost = one swept sun team.

Chandewhonow?

I love how Snorlax completely de-legitimatizes Sun's Fire & even Water-type counters.

At +1 in Sun, Volcarona tickles Snorlax with Fiery Dance & gets OHKO'd by Choice Band Return. Flash Fire Heatran's Fire Blast tickles him as well. Chandelure gets OHKO'd by Choice Band Pursuit if it even tries to switch-in on any Pokemon.

Snorlax (M) @ Choice Band
Trait: Thick Fat
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SDef
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Return
- Pursuit
- Fire Punch
- Earthquake

Then again, not many people know that since they're too busy using Solar Power Charizard, Occa Berry + Natural Gift Leafeon, and...Venusaur.

I'm not going to ever consider Offensive Venusaur good until it gets a Female release so it can learn Power Whip. Giga Drain, Seed Bomb, those aren't threatening even at +2. It's basically "Congrats! You can now OHKO Gliscor with a Special Attack. Good luck against that Tyranitar though!" Hell, if it's running Growth in the first place, It only has room for 3 moves when it needs Giga Drain, HP Fire, Earthquake, Sludge Bomb, AND Sleep Powder to be effective. If you're running Growth & Sleep Power, USE LILLIGANT OR TANGROWTH! If you're not using Sludge Bomb, Venusaur is very outclassed by those 2 harder hitting Pokemon in one way or another.

Venusaur is the Hydreigon of Sun. Yeah the Pursui- I mean Fighting-resist is a nice perk, but Latio- I mean Tangrowth & Lilligant, completely out-muscle it.