Metagame np: PU Stage 1 - LA Devotee (Thievul Banned)

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MZ

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https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/usage-based-tier-update-for-june-2020.3665378/#post-8486686

Corsola moved from NU to PU
Farfetch'd moved from NU to PU
Golurk moved from NU to PU
Meltan moved from NU to PU
Mr. Mime-Galar moved from NU to PU
Rapidash-Galar moved from NU to PU
Stunfisk moved from NU to PU

Shuckle moved from PU to OU

Extremely excited for these tier shifts, we lost nothing of value and gained several highly promising suspects. Going into PUPL+Open season this was just about the best kind of shift we could've asked for. Feel free to use this thread to discuss the new drops!
 
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zS

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Hi guys, I'm back again with a few sets for every drops we had so that everyone can experiment them.
:ss/rapidash-galar:
Swords Dance (Rapidash-Galar) @ Life Orb
Ability: Pastel Veil
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Play Rough
- Psycho Cut
- High Horsepower

Special Choice Scarf (Rapidash-Galar) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pastel Veil
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dazzling Gleam
- Psychic
- Mystical Fire
- Healing Wish/Sleep Talk

Physical Choice Scarf (Rapidash-Galar) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pastel Veil
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Play Rough
- Zen Headbutt
- High Horsepower
- Healing Wish/Sleep Talk

Special Attacker (Rapidash-Galar) @ Life Orb
Ability: Pastel Veil
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Morning Sun
- Dazzling Gleam
- Psychic
- Mystical Fire

Choice Specs (Rapidash-Galar) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pastel Veil
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dazzling Gleam
- Psychic
- Mystical Fire
- Sleep Talk/Healing Wish

Calm Mind (Rapidash-Galar) @ Kee Berry/Leftovers
Ability: Pastel Veil
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power/Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam
- Morning Sun

This is by far the best drop we have in my opinion. It's a really versatile Pokemon that has no real check other than Pyukumuku depending on which set is ran. I'm like 100% sure it will be Top Tier if it's not banned/suspected. It also provides another Dubwool check which is Always cool to have.

:ss/mr-mime-galar:
Offensive Sweeper (Mr. Mime-Galar) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Screen Cleaner
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rapid Spin
- Nasty Plot/Calm Mind
- Ice Beam
- Psyshock/Focus Blast

Choice Scarf (Mr. Mime-Galar) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Screen Cleaner
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Ice Beam
- Psychic/Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- Trick

Choice Specs (Mr. Mime-Galar) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Screen Cleaner
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- Trick/Shadow Ball

Mr. Mime-G is really interesting. I think it will be very good since it has a great typing, a great movepool, a really good Speedtier which is in my opinion it's biggest advantage over Mr. Rime. I'm really looking forward this Pokemon, it will probably be the best spinner in the tier since it pressure all the rockers I am going to mention after it.

:ss/golurk:
Offensive Stealth Rock (Golurk) @ Yache Berry / Colbur Berry
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Dynamic Punch
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge/Ice Punch

Choice Band (Golurk) @ Choice Band
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Close Combat
- Ice Punch
- Shadow Punch

Rock Polish (Golurk) @ Life Orb
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Polish
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Ice Punch

First Rocker we got with those drops is Golurk and in my opinion it will be the staple rocker on offensive teams. It has a good typing, the very rare in PU ground typing, a very big movepool, a decent speed and a really high Attack stat. Golurk will imply a big amount of changes in the tier, that's sure.

:ss/stunfisk:
Physically Defensive (Stunfisk) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Static
EVs: 248 HP / 108 Def / 152 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Discharge
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic

Offensive Stealth Rock (Stunfisk) @ Leftovers / Life Orb
Ability: Static
EVs: 104 HP / 252 SpA / 152 Spe
Modest Nature
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock
- Discharge
- Toxic/Sludge Wave/Scald

Choice Specs (Stunfisk) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Static
EVs: 104 HP / 252 SpA / 152 Spe
Modest Nature
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave
- Thunderbolt
- Toxic/Scald/Stealth Rock

This might be my favorite drop so far, Stunfisk is a pokemon I've been personally waiting for since it came in the game with Home. It has a really good typing and a good ability in Static and It's going to be really annoying to deal with. The spreads I made has enough speed for Mawile, but I think you can go with 252 Hp 252 Def on the first for sure.

:ss/farfetch
Choice Attacker (Farfetch’d) @ Choice Band / Choice Scarf
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Close Combat
- Double-Edge
- U-turn

Swords Dance (Farfetch’d) @ Protective Pads
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Brave Bird
- Close Combat
- Double-Edge

All out Attacker (Farfetch’d) @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Life Orb
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- First Impression
- Brave Bird
- Close Combat
- Leaf Blade

I will probably sound dumb now but I really think Farfetch'd can be good in PU. Flying types are really rare in this tier and so are the switches in. It also has Defiant to prevent Mawile from switching in safely. Unfortunately we got Stunfisk during those shifts but the second set I made is thought to deal fairly well with Stunfisk if it has been weakened previously. You avoid taking Static and Rocky Helmet thanks to protective pads. I'll give a Feedback when I'll get to use it more. I have really high hopes on this Pokemon and I hope it'll work!

:ss/corsola:
Physically Defensive (Corsola) @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Recover
- Scald
- Toxic

Corsola's unique niche is probably setting rocks and having acces to Regenerator I guess. It has an awful typing tho and I think it would've been better without Golurk and Stunfisk. Too bad for the cute and alive coral reef.

:ss/meltan:
Croltan (Meltan) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Acid Armor
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Flash Cannon

Meltan @ Choice Specs
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steel Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Thunder Wave

There is no way in hell this thing works someday but I guess this is the only thing you can do with Meltan. It can trap Mawile at least, I guess.
edit: s/o gum for the specs set

Alright thanks for reeding me and I hope those sets will help everyone even tho they were mainly made for the beginners.
Cheers!
 
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SergioRules

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zS beat me to this because I've been at work all day :verymad: but here are some more thoughts on the new drops.
Contrary to zS, I think this won't actually be terrible. It's really unfortunate that it dropped alongside two other great Stealth Rock setters and yet another reliable spinner, and also that it comes to us in a fairly Fighting-type heavy meta, and also that it's abysmally slow. Jokes aside, I think in the right meta this could've been a really good SR setter since it's one of the few with reliable recovery and has decent enough defensive stats. Unfortunately, that meta was like 3 months ago.

I remember talking about this in the PU Discord a few weeks ago and deciding that it actually wouldn't be terrible due to its great coverage and the fact that we don't have any other offensive Flying-types in the tier. Choice Band turns it into a really powerful attacker and it's yet another Pokemon that gets First Impression, so I immediately like it a lot. Its moveset is really customizable, with things like Leaf Blade, Knock Off, U-turn, Quick Attack, Close Combat, and so much more. It also notably has Defog which probably isn't the best on it but can be a fairly decent emergency hazard control. Multiple setup options in both SD and Agility can make it a pretty unpredictable sweeper. Probably one of the drops I'm most excited to use since it's not overtly broken, but definitely not the worst thing to use.

Not sure why NU gave this to us because I thought it was pretty good up there but hey, I'm not complaining. Another offensive Stealth Rock user that isn't Stonjourner and therefore doesn't fall over to a gust of wind. Not to mention spinblocking, although two of our best spinners now beat it with Ice STAB. Nevertheless, I really enjoyed using this last gen and now it's even better. I don't think this really has any reliable switch in other than like Throh which can't actually do anything to it. As an offensive rocker with Yache Berry, it beats all spinners except for Hitmontop and all the good Defoggers. As a CB user, it has literally no guaranteed switch ins, but as a Rock Polish sweeper, its Speed tier leaves it a little lacking. This could actually get to be a problem for the tier, but I think there's a bigger fish to fry atm.

NUT

A faster Mr. Rime with the tradeoff of having less power and no recovery. It's only bulkier than Rime if it carries an Eviolite, but honestly there are so many things you can viably run on this. Boots makes it better as a spinner, Scarf lets it function as a revenge killer with its higher Speed, and Specs lets it hit surprisingly hard. That's not even mentioning its wide movepool, with both offensive and support options. Offensively, there's Freeze-Dry, Focus Blast, Dazzling Gleam, and Thunderbolt, while its support options include the aforementioned Rapid Spin, Encore, Healing Wish, Taunt, and Toxic. There's so much versatility in this mon just like there is with its evolved form, and I think even without the reliable recovery the Mr. Rime has, I think it could be just as good, if not better, due to its Speed tier alone.

Super surprised about this drop, and honestly, I'd like to see it go. Physical sets are really good, either Scarf, Band or SD, however, I think the real problem lies in the special sets. We're fairly pressed for special walls, and things like Type: Null rely on Toxic to wear things down rather than outright damage. Rapidash's Pastel Veil preventing it from being Poisoned means that it isn't affected by this, and can also switch into Toxic Spikes without worry. It has really good coverage on both offensive sides that allows it to beat most things that could normally beat it. I could probably list a million other things but I also think it's fairly obvious how good this thing is. Like zS said, if this isn't immediately banned, it's definitely going to be top tier.

Pancake mon is back. Reliable Stealth Rock setter, pretty good defensive typing, and the exact amount of support moves to be a really good member of balance teams. Only being weak to two of the remaining Silvally forms (arguably the two worst types), is great for Stunfisk. I personally think that a max Defense set will be the best but I like the idea of being able to go a little more offensive in a rocker. Stunfisk doesn't appreciate how great the current Ice-types are with Rime, Glaceon and the newest Mr. Mime-G but getting a Discharge paralysis on any of them can potentially be invaluable for another teammate. It also really likes the common Fighting-types that it can paralyze with Static and switching in fairly reliably against Pawniard, Mawile, and Manectric.

RIP webs, but that's a super niche playstyle. I don't think this'll be missed at all. I'm more curious on how it rose all the way to OU but that's irrelevant.
 

Leni

formerly tlenit
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Council Minutes
Meta Discussion:
  • Drops happened and council is not looking forward for any quick bans.
  • Council is happy to have two new ground type rockers that the tier has been lacking on earlier metas. Golurk and Rapidash-Galar looks to be top of the pack from drops.
  • Last week before drops council had few talks here and there how current meta benefits Heatmor.
  • Eject Pack as an item looks very under explored for council and 2xthetap made another post about it here.
VR and Other Votes:
  • Huge shift indeed and opinions are more than welcome from you guys as well. Please try to adjust first before making 'final statement' of the drop X or Y. Therefor the opinion carries more weight and gives also better feedback.
  • Teddeh is back from his break, welcome back!
Forum Happenings:
And for last a visual of shifts:
1591082116885.png


Till the next week
 
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First off, the starter pokemon have their hidden abilities now, so thats good news for Raboot and Thwackey.

Secondly, I watched the latest DLC Trailer, and below is a list of pokemon I think will be relevant to PU. (in order of reveal in trailer)
Isle of Armor

-Luxray
-Scyther
-Loudred
-Krokorok
-Tangela
-Poliwrath
-Politoed (If drizzle gets banned in UU)
-Kangaskhan
-Bouffilant
-Lycanroc (Midnight and MAYBE midday)
-Emolga
-Fletchinder
-Kubfu

The Crown Tundra
-Regice
-Relicanth
-Cryogonal
-(there was another pokemon in the scene with Cryogonal, IDK what it is)
-Altaria
-Regieleki (the dragon regi gets a water spout clone) (very unlikely)
-Magmar
-Seadra
-Lurantis
-Aggron
-Articuno (maybe)


and thats it! Isle of Armor is coming out June 17th, I believe.
 
First off, the starter pokemon have their hidden abilities now, so thats good news for Raboot and Thwackey.
Talking about that i think this set could work for Thwackey and Raboot
:ss/thwackey:
Thwackey @ Choice Scarf/Choice Band/Eviolite
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Knock Off
- U-turn/Sword Dance
- Drain Punch
80 speed and 85 attack is nice in the tier.. Wood Hammer do good dmg again non resist mon. Also has uturn for momentum and knock off for all mon non named silvally.. he gonna work nicely in balance team bc many walls like free recovery.

:ss/Raboot:
HDB Raboot (Raboot) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Libero
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Sucker Punch
- U-turn
- High Jump Kick
like Thwackey Raboot has nice stat (86 attack/94 speed). Libero means he has STAB in every move but he doesnt have form of hitting water types making things like :Mareanie: walled for ever.. but he can work nicely in offensive team.. bad that :cinderace: have zen headbutt and court change..

Another thing is DLC are coming in June 17.. and we can gain some NFE and LC from it.. Idk if Tangela and friends start in OU or drop to NFE...
 

SergioRules

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I've updated my list of returning mons and if new viable moves that they get in the DLC. You can find it here to see what things are confirmed and how they might change in this new generation.
So this isn't a one-liner, I'll post some initial thoughts I have on the Pokemon that are newly confirmed to be returning in the Isle of Armor.
:poliwrath: Drain Punch, Superpower, Muddy Water, Close Combat, Darkest Lariat, Liquidation
I've been looking forward to this thing returning ever since the initial Pokemon Home datamine, and I think this can be a great addition to the tier now that it has actual STAB moves. Bulky sets with Drain Punch or offensive rain sweepers with CC, either way it's a very cool addition.
:exeggutor::exeggutor-alola:
While not gaining any new moves, the Exeggutors were big threats last gen, and could still be very potent this time around. Kanto probably will still work the same way, with Specs being the best set, and Alolan could once again be too powerful and probably won't even drop here in the first place.
:tangela:
Tangela+Mareanie Regen cores about to be everywhere on balance teams.
:kangaskhan:
KangaSpikes Offense will make a return and I can't wait because those were my favorite types of teams at the end of SM.
:scyther: Acrobatics, Cross Poison, Psycho Cut
Acrobatics is a really cool new toy for this. If using the bulky SD sweeper from last gen, Acro is only marginally weaker than Aerial Ace, but if Scyther gets its Eviolite Knocked Off, it can do insane damage. Probably going to be similar to Ninjask but less Speed may make it more manageable.
:tauros:
I don't necessarily expect this to drop here, but it's possible and will be a great breaker/cleaner.
:politoed: Liquidation
Politoed doesn't get the same love wrath does this gen, but Liquidation is a stronger STAB for Belly Drum sets I guess.
:absol: Close Combat
Definitely the most excited about this to return. I hated running Superpower on it last gen but CC makes it so much better.
:luxray: Play Rough, Psychic Fangs, Agility
Has been pretty bad, probably will stay bad, but still a decently fun mon.
:emolga: Energy Ball
I have no idea why this now gets Energy Ball but I'm not complaining since it allows it to hit rock and ground types that it normally sucked against. If only they could've given it Nasty Plot too.
:bouffalant: Body Slam, Close Combat
Another exciting returning mon. Grass immunity isn't as necessary as it was last gen with Lilligant, but Body Slam will be a good alternative to Return (if you aren't using Head Charge Reckless) and CC is a stronger way of hitting resists than EQ.
 
So whenthe new DLC drops we get Scyther.. now for 4 generations what has plagued Scyther more than anything is stealth rock. Well now Scyther has access to Heacy Duty Boots.

Base 105 attack. Base 115 speed. Stab U-turn. Technician Aerial Ace, Bug Bite. Access to Swords Dance, Knock off, Roost, Brick Break, Technician priority, Now Psycho Cut/Cross Poison for coverage. And an excellent array of coverage moves all while now no longer being hurt by SR?

Yeah there is no way in hell I see this thing staying in PU.
 
:scyther: Acrobatics, Cross Poison, Psycho Cut
Acrobatics is a really cool new toy for this. If using the bulky SD sweeper from last gen, Acro is only marginally weaker than Aerial Ace, but if Scyther gets its Eviolite Knocked Off, it can do insane damage. Probably going to be similar to Ninjask but less Speed may make it more manageable.
Just have to add on and reply to this. But you suggest eviolite but Scyther now gets Heavy Duty boots which will make him so much better than eviolite ever could as imagine a better Ninjask with no SR weakness.

All I know is I'm excited to fuck around with this pokemon before it either gets banned or movesto the higher tiers.t
 
Hello, I'm fairly new to PU(and competitive Pokemon in general) and wanted to post my thoughts about all the new drops and hidden ability starters now that I've had time to mess around with them. Feel free to disagree. First Post btw.


Raboot seems like it's a genuine threat. I've used both Choice Band and Bulk Up sets and had pretty good success with them, although it can't do anything to Mareanie. It's at a decent speed tier and has a decent attack stat and Libero, as well as U-turn for momentum, making it pretty good imo.


Initially I wasn't all that impressed with Thwackey, and I didn't think it was any good. I used mainly a sub seed set at first but switched over to Choice Band and never looked back. Banded is fire. Terrain boosted Wood Hammer hits like a truck, and it has a solid speed tier and provides grassy passive recovery to stuff like AV Hitmontop. Honestly a really fun mon.


Drizzile is absolutely horrendous. It's special movepool consists of only Surf and Weather Ball. I tried using Dual Screens but Meowstic is so ridiculously superior that I recommend no one ever use this edgy kid.


Golurk is in a word, fantastic. It's bulk, power, and typing make it the best offensive steal rock setter in the tier imo. Every game I used this thing it would always put in so much work, and I really hope it sticks around for a while


Rapidash is another drop that I think is amazing. Swords Dance, Calm Mind, And choiced sets are all amazing. It's fast, it's strong, and I honestly think this might be too much for the tier


Mr. Mime is pretty good. It's fast, fairly strong, and has a great movepool. It's gonna be interesting to see if it's better than Mr. Rime as the meta develops. Personally, I think Mr. Rime is better due to superior bulk without needing to run Eviolite and access to Slack Off, but IDK.


Stunfisk is another good drop. A good defensive rocker with access to paralysis. Not really much to say about this one tbh


At first I thought that Farfetch'd was garbage, however after using it a bit i think its just kinda meh. It's attack stat is decent and it's movepool is great, but it is rather slow. I had the most success with Swords Dance on a Sticky Web team. I could also see banded being decent with First Impression and U-turn.


Corsala is another mon that I had very low expectation for, and I still think it isn't great. On paper, a rocks setter with Recover and Regenerator seem great, but that typing is awful. I haven't used this mon all that much so I could be wrong though.


This thing is complete ass. It traps Mawile, that's it. Don't use this thing, like ever.

Overall I'm pretty happy with these drops and am looking forward to how the meta develops. Peace.
 
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:Thwackey:+:Thievul:
With the release of Grassy Surge earlier this week, the Grookey line and Tapu Koko are the only Terrain setters with U-Turn, and that makes the Grookey line excellent support for its teammates for the tier it is in. Even with terrain nerfs, Rillaboom in higher tiers has shown it’s pretty capable, and I believe so with Thwackey. Having mostly the same movepool, Thwackey is a host to a variety of sets. It can go for Scarf and Band, it can use Swords Dance, and it’s one of the few NFE to have an ability that gives it passive recovery, so it can hold Eviolite. After Eviolite, it essentially has 70/114/99 bulk uninvested, and that’s combined with an ability that heals Thwackey for 1/16th health. On top of that, Thwackey still has access to Leech Seed. With that bulk and amount of recovery, Thwackey can also have a successful SubSeed set thanks to having 80 Speed that puts it on par with Gastly.

Thievul is also a great partner for Thwackey. Thievul and Liepard are the only Unburden users with Nasty Plot. Although their movepools are terrible, Thievul’s movepool is still manageable for the tier and with teammates to deal with Fairy types, Dark types, and Fighting types.
Grassy Terrain helps Thievul use bulkier builds thanks to the Left Overs recovery, and lets Thievul power up Grass Knot. Also, having Thwackey with U-turn provide constant threat throughout a match while Pincurchin, while does provide spikes, won’t do a whole lot besides provide terrain and can only use memento once.
 

MZ

And now for something completely different
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Extremely excited for these tier shifts, we lost nothing of value and gained several highly promising suspects. Going into PUPL+Open season this was just about the best kind of shift we could've asked for. Feel free to use this thread to discuss the new drops!
So this ended up slightly poorly aged.

Sorry about the short warning here, but council is going to be holding another quickban vote today. Included will be some of the old suspects (Dubwool, Rime, etc. just a regular checkup on them) as well as two new drops in Golurk and Galarian Rapidash. While the initial impression was that these would be pretty cool, it quickly became apparent that both drops are really, really good in this current meta and we should be deciding on their inclusion before the next round of kickoff. I'm going to include some reasoning to lessen the feeling that this is coming out of nowhere, our turnaround wasn't quite this slow there just wasn't really a lot of time to make a post between realizing how questionable their presence is and deciding to do an immediate vote. That being said there's still time to make posts about how you feel about their presence, if you have strong feelings then let us know!

Golurk: We had this in gen 7, but back then it didn't necessarily always stand out next to other powerhouses like Aggron, Torterra, etc. Now the tier has almost no Ground immunities, just as few Ground resists, and pretty much all of them are weak to Stone Edge or Ice Punch. Choice Band is an unbelievable wallbreaker in a tier where there's just not much immune to Earthquake, Rock Polish finally gets to be a strong option because our revenge killers aren't good vs it (Scarf Manectric, Fake Out Persian, First Impression Falinks) and the tier is way slower than it was in SM, and any set it runs brings immediate excellent defensive utility by virtue of checking Dubwool and Falinks and being an Electric immunity. Its meant to be balanced by poor speed and lots of weaknesses, but we have a hard time reconciling that with how incredibly well it can wallbreak.

Galarian Rapidash: Almost nothing will reliably switch into this. Swords Dance is pretty powerful, offensive special sets have even better coverage, and Grassy Seed Stored Power/Calm Mind/Morning Sun/Filler sets make physical scarfers like Stonjourner and Golurk somewhat unreliable as revenge killers. Its movepool and stat spread allows it to be more diverse than most mons in the tier, it has physical and special coverage for almost everything and plenty of setup opportunity with its interesting typing and Poison immunity. But the real kicker is the Speed, it's only slower than Persian and Raichu and random Choice Scarf users while still having pretty reasonable bulk (especially since it can rack up defensive boosts before taking a hit). For something with so many options to also always be a sweeping threat before it even sets up has led the council to question its healthiness.
 
Hello, I mainly play on the PS server and lurk here but I wanted to give my thoughts on these mons so there it goes:

Rapidash-Galar:
Definitely the most deserving of a ban, it lacks good offensive and defensive counterplay. It's speed tier is absurd and the plethora of sets often leads a player into a situation on which he must guess what set is being used just to have a chance at checking it. SD has an absurd coverage and isn't easy to wall, while defensive Calm Mind sets are really hard to revenge kill and given 1 or 2 turns of set up are enough to run through entire teams, especially given its immunity to Toxic. I definitely think it should be banned.


Golurk:
While not as threatening as Rapidash-Galar, the tier simply lacks solid Ground resists outside of Gourgeist-XL. Once Golurk gets safely in the field, a Choice Band set is almost guaranteed to take something out. Golurk also has the option to bear other sets such as Choice Scarf, which is only outsped naturally by Persian and Manectric, Rock Polish which can cause terror in the Mid Game and even an e setter set, which by virtue of forcing opposing Pokémon out easily makes it pretty easy to set hazards. Did we have Tangela I'd reconsider my position on it but as it stands it also should be banned.


Dubwool:

I'm on the wall with this one. Its Normal typing and Fluffy ability give it an easy time setting up Body Press. Despite not being hard to wall with the same mons that check Fighting Types, it's capable of stalling many of these answers out in the late game with Rest. Unlike Type-Null, its defensive setup is the same as its Offensive one, making it more reliable as a general setup mon. I think it's much less unhealthy than the previous mentioned mons, but its presence still constrains teambuilding enough for me to consider it banworthy.


Mr. Rime:
At last, Mr. Rime. It too has got me on the wall. It's really strong offensively and really hard to reliably switch in. However the proeminence of Silvally-Bug, as well as it's overreliance on Heavy Duty Boots mean it's scarier on paper than in most games. In the end my position on it is that it's not banworthy.
 
Heres my own thoughts on the quickban suspects

Rapidash-Galar:
I agree with Ranbu in that RAPIDASH. NEEDS. TO. GO. Seriously, its just so fast and has so much offensive prowess. You either win because there isnt a Rapidash, or lose because this beast swept you. Too much unpredictability because you cant tell if its a SD set or a CM set, and if it boosts enough, it will sweep. Please Ban.


Golurk:
I feel this shouldnt be banned. We have a lot of pokemon that can offensively check this thing, such as Mr Mime-Galar and Silvally-Grass. I feel this thing is perfectly balanced, as it doesnt get good ghost stab, and every fully evolved ground type I know of gets Earthquake. I personally really like using this as a Stealth Rock lead. I see why its banworthy, but I would really like it if it wasnt banned.


Dubwool:

No question, ban this sheep.


Mr. Rime:
Its great offensively, but it just sucks defensively. 70 speed is very low, allowing it to be easily revenge killed. It's prone to knock off, and its weak to the newest PU silvally in Silvally-Bug. It also overly relies on its Heavy Duty Boots, because of its Ice typing. I personally have never suffered issues by this thing.
 

MZ

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The vote has happened and Golurk and Galarian Rapidash have been banned in one very close vote and one not remotely close vote, respectively. We'll talk some more about council's reasoning in minutes tomorrow, but I'm hopeful that we're getting to a reasonably decent place for the start of PUPL and slam. We'll see what DLC brings in 10 days but until then feel free to discuss the post-quickbans meta here.
 
Ok, so now that sweep horse is gone, heres what I think are current problems in the tier.
:ss/falinks:
Falinks was a clear A+ Tier ever since it dropped. So many games have been lost due to this op piece of crap. It has almost zero defensive checks, with the only thing I know of being Musharna. There is no offensive counterplay I know of that can kill this snake before it sets up and dominates your game. PLEASE BAN THIS THING.

:ss/mr-rime:
My opinion still stays unchanged on my vibey boi. He kinda lost a bit of usefulness as a good Golurk check, but his pros and cons are still the same. I believe, much like Garbodor in early NU, this thing is a clear S-Tier without being actually broken. It really only has 2 sets, and you know which one is which as soon as you see a turn of it in action, Spinner or Nasty Plot Sweeper.

:ss/dubwool:
well, we just lost another dubwool check in golurk. PLEASE BAN

:ss/meltan:
lol

ok bye
 

MZ

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Council Happenings

Meta Discussion:
  • Galarian Rapidash got banned fairly unanimously and I've seen little to no pushback from a balance standpoint. "What if Mr. Mime wasn't underwhelming and could run both physical and special sets" blew up pretty quickly.
  • Golurk was practically impossible to switch into and Rocks/Scarf/Band/Rock Polish were all absolutely incredible. As we said in the ban reasoning, the risk/reward on this Pokemon was really the key factor people ought to examine. Golurk risked very little and broke most of the metagame without needing much prediction or effort. The anti-ban people on council like myself leaned more on the side of "I might be in favor of a ban in another few days and before PUPL but this just seems a bit too premature is all". Golurk was still an amazing top tier threat in our eyes, just one that could maybe use a tiny bit more time to see if it could possibly be salvaged.
  • This leads to the council's mindset on the current meta. We've been doing what we can to get everything healthy and playable in time for PUPL and slam, and we're in two minds on that. On the one hand, PU has clearly gotten a lot better since the days of Silvally-Fire and Noctowl. Variance in the meta is decreasing, it feels much more likely that the better player ought to win. On the other hand, we still have a state where it's incredibly difficult to stay prepped for all of the top threats. Random sweepers that are just slightly on the rare side can and do still pick up games for free because, for the most part, our defensive options are limited and poor at blanketing a ton of threats. We don't have anything left that's as outright broken as Galarian Rapidash, but we there's still a desire to tune up the meta a bit more regardless.
  • This leads into Silvally-Grass, which generated a lot of surprise with 4 ban votes on the sheet. It's simply one of those threats that will just randomly steal games while being really difficult to reasonably prep for with its Sub/SD/Flame Charge/Multi Attack set. While not being as critically broken as other stuff we've handled, it is still a Silvally with all the benefits that entails, and this added bulky sweeping element that uses the Grass-typing to its fullest is a concern. So while you might not initially see it ask something that needs addressing, from the perspective of a council looking to make this meta as playable and competitive as possible before major tours it becomes a much more attractive target. This isn't how a majority of the council feels, myself included, but it's a significant ideology. Something needs fixing, and Grassvally is a somewhat reasonable step.
  • As for random meta bits we've been discussing, Thwackey is insanely good right now. Terrain support is really nice and seeds should probably continue to see more uses similar to Galarian Rapidash's Grassy Seed Calm Mind set, but even taken on its own Thwackey just hits really hard. The meta has plenty of Grass-resists and has been used to prepping for Silvally-Grass and Leafeon, but Terrain-boosted Wood Hammer still makes it a top tier threat almost immediately.

VR and Other Votes:
  • My goal is to have a new VR vote by Friday. There are still some new drops to get ranked and a few things that stick out pretty hard, most notably how we kind of forgot to handle the worse but still amazing Silvallies in the last vote. As for quickbans, we might have some fairly straightforward ones depending on what drops in the DLC on the 17th but there doesn't seem to be any pressing need for a vote before then.

Forum Happenings:
  • PUPL Auction will be June 14th, 1pm EST
  • PU Open signups now have a date: June 22nd
See you guys in PUPL!
 
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gum

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hi, im writing this post at 5am so please excuse any grammar errors. this post's also worded pretty badly but i can't figure out how to make it better without rewriting everything, and this gets the idea across either way. anyway, this post is gonna be covering the silvallies and precisely why i think that they have a negative impact on the tier.

counters to silvally don't exist. it's always been the case, but we've reached a point where the various silvallies still in the tier's typings are starting to burden them, both offensively (worse multi-attack typing) and defensively. while some argue it's enough to make them healthy and balanced additions to the metagame, i think their sheer offensive prowesses outshine every possible elements that make them healthy. their incredibly large movepool allows them to cherry-pick what they beat, while multi-attack's base power alone makes them scary enough. they are impossible to answer defensively, while also being very hard to reliably check offensively. what this often leads to is people trying to defensively answer certain forms like silvally-electric and -rock, and offensively check others, like silvally-bug and -grass. the issue is that it's often a game of "please don't have the right coverage", which can either sway the game in the silvally user's favour, or force the opponent to scout, which, by the way, isn't easy considering the silvally user can always bluff / get away with mispredicting due to its coverage allowing it to usually threaten whatever is coming in. simply put, you'll lose to all silvally formes if they have the right set to fuck up your team, which puts a huge strain teambuilding-wise, but also in game. at this point, i think it's better to just blanket banning silvally and ask ourselves this; if the more prominent silvally forms get banned, will the ones currently flying under the radar (rock and ice) be healthy? from how i see it, no. silvally is still the same pokemon, with the only thing changing being its typing, and it's gonna be a huge annoyance regardless. the reason we don't see much of those forms is because the current top silvally forms do what they do but better thanks to their typing. does that make them bad? no, not at all, but why would you use silvally at 95% of its potential when you could use it at 100% of its potential? usually their typings are their only niche.

i do realize that this might not be the best time to bring this subject up due to pupl and slam coming, along with the dlc, and i was honestly not a fan of the idea of blanket banning silvally until recently, but i think it just has way too much negative impact on the tier. ty for reading :heart:
 
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hi, im writing this post at 5am so please excuse any grammar errors. this post's also worded pretty badly but i can't figure out how to make it better without rewriting everything, and this gets the idea across either way. anyway, this post is gonna be covering the silvallies and precisely why i think that they have a negative impact on the tier.

counters to silvally don't exist. it's always been the case, but we've reached a point where the various silvallies still in the tier's typings are starting to burden them, both offensively (worse multi-attack typing) and defensively. while some argue it's enough to make them healthy and balanced additions to the metagame, i think their sheer offensive prowesses outshine every possible elements that make them healthy. their incredibly large movepool allows them to cherry-pick what they beat, while multi-attack's base power alone makes them scary enough. they are impossible to answer defensively, while also being very hard to reliably check offensively. what this often leads to is people trying to defensively answer certain forms like silvally-electric and -rock, and offensively check others, like silvally-bug and -grass. the issue is that it's often a game of "please don't have the right coverage", which can either sway the game in the silvally user's favour, or force the opponent to scout, which, by the way, isn't easy considering the silvally user can always bluff / get away with mispredicting due to its coverage allowing it to usually threaten whatever is coming in. simply put, you'll lose to all silvally formes if they have the right set to fuck up your team, which puts a huge strain teambuilding-wise, but also in game. at this point, i think it's better to just blanket banning silvally and ask ourselves this; if the more prominent silvally forms get banned, while the ones currently flying under the radar (rock and ice) be healthy? from how i see it, no. silvally is still the same pokemon, with the only thing changing being its typing, and it's gonna be a huge annoyance regardless. the reason we don't see much of those forms is because the current top silvally forms do what they do but better thanks to their typing. does that make them bad? no, not at all, but why would you use silvally at 95% of its potential when you could use it at 100% of its potential? usually their typings are their only niche.

i do realize that this might not be the best time to bring this subject up due to pupl and slam coming, along with the dlc, and i was honestly not a fan of the idea of blanket banning silvally until recently, but i think it just has way too much negative impact on the tier. ty for reading :heart:
whats the word for agreeing and disagreeing at the same time? because thats how i feel about a potential blanket silvally ban. I feel Silvally-Electric should be looked at, as it isnt easy to offensively check this thing. We have almost no ground types in the tier, and there are barely and electric resist / immunities outside of Palpitoad and Golurk, and golurk got banned. Please Ban.
 

Specs

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Council Minutes #5!


Meta Discussion:

- We discussed a potential Silvally blanket ban, however waiting for DLC stuff and seeing how some of PUPL goes seems like the better option. There aren't many Silvallys left either so while a blanket ban could just get rid of the apparent issue, continuing to deal with them in batches has proven to work. We have at least gotten to the point that none of them are Silvally-Fire/Ground/Normal levels of ridiculous.

- Some council members aren't very happy with how building has been. Way too many threats to account for, too little defensive options to deal with them. We have a fine enough foundation of a meta it seems, and we're still having fun playing it and messing around with the fun threats/exploring new options.

-Not much else as far as meta discussion because PUPL was about to start. We will be getting all of the NFE's from DLC so we're quite excited to see what we can keep to help the meta, and are preparing for the ridiculous stuff we will need to quick ban. Stay tuned for that!

VR and Other Votes:

- New vr update out! https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ss-pu-viability-rankings.3662231/page-2#post-8504128

-Silvallys as per usual continue to rise up.

-Thievul rose up as well, it continues to do well semi-consistently and thanks to Grassy Seed/Electric Seed gets set up opportunities quite often.

Check out the actual post for more!

Forum Happenings:

- PUPL Week 1 is out! Congrats to all of the players drafted and best of luck to each team! https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/pupl-vi-week-1.3666029/#post-8502837
 

termi

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https://pokepast.es/50cf02de2bd9cc05

all pokemon on the VR + new tutor moves they learn (if any). explanations of the new moves are at the bottom of this page. the more relevant stuff:
- basculin gets flip turn which gives it an adaptability-boosted u-turn essentially, which is extremely good on it and might push it to NU altho i doubt it
- thwackey gets a 70 bp stab move that gains priority in grassy terrain, basically giving it one of the strongest priority moves in the game with a cb lol. definitely can see this moving up soon
- on the topic of terrain setters, pincurchin suddenly looks very scary with rising voltage which basically gives it a 140 bp stab move with no drawbacks
- thievul gets fire coverage, meaning mawile is no longer a good check (and pawniard becomes an even shittier check than it already was). looks like a problem!
- gourgeist, trevenant, and dusknoir are all relevant new users of the new poltergeist move, which is incredibly useful since they all lacked powerful physical ghost stabs. dusknoir especially becomes a lot better now that it has an actual stab move instead of shadow punch. oh yeah shedinja also gets it
- hitmontop gets triple axel, which is conveniently given pseudo-stab thanks to technician. depending on how strong this move ends up being this could make hitmontop a lot more threatening
- wartortle getting flip turn might give it a better shot at not being trash than shell smash did. being able to grab momentum with this thing honestly sounds pretty good
- seaking also gets flip turn, combined with lightningrod it can switch into manectric and gain momentum against it which is pretty cool. it also gets the weird dragon move that boosts its speed
 
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new moves for new old mons from looking at datamine list
may have missed some I'm sure

this does -not- cover tutor moves

99% of these come from technical records

anyway the list, just putting em all cause theres not that many, there are some relevant to PU

Poliwrath: Drain Punch, Close Combat, Earth Power, Darkest Lariat, High Horsepower, Liquidation
Tauros: Throat Chop, High Horsepower
Chansey: Stored Power
Politoed: Earth Power
Dunsparce: Stored Power
Heracross: High Horsepower
Skarmory: Body Press
Kingdra: Hurricane
Miltank: Play Rough
Luxray: Play Rough, Psychic Fangs, Agility
Sharpedo: Close Combat
Lopunny: U-Turn, Play Rough
Lickilicky: Body Press
Lilligant: Pollen Puff
Krookodile: Close Combat, Darkest Lariat, High Horsepower
Emolga: Energy Ball
Amoongus: Pollen Puff
Mienshao: Close Combat, Blaze Kick
Bouffalant: Throat Chop, High Horsepower, Close Combat
Klefki: Stored Power
Lycanrock: Close Combat, Play Rough
Comfey: Stored Power, Pollen Puff
Magearna: Stored Power
 

termi

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relevant new NFEs we should be getting whenever changes are implemented and we didn't already know about:
:kadabra: looking extremely good with that speed tier and base 120 spa, luckily it didn't gain any interesting coverage moves so it has no way past steel types. still looking like a top offensive threat
:slowpoke: we knew we were getting this but idt anybody rly paid it any mind so i just wanna bring up that this thing should be getting teleport, which in tandem with regenerator might actually make it viable as a bulky pivot
:porygon2: jk this is broken and will be qb'd
:whirlipede: it sets spikes and tspikes as a suicide lead i guess? never mind this thing's probably shit but u kno
:seadra: our best fast offensive water if we don't keep basculin lolol. it gets flip turn!!

ok i thought there would be more interesting mons among these but nah. tangela will shake the tier up quite a bit if it stays and krokorok will be solid but besides those and kadabra/maybe slowpoke everything we get immediately is either irrelevant or too damn busted to stay. tier should get very interesting (read: a clusterfuck) when july comes around tho
 

MZ

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Brief (I thought LOL) council update as to what's going on: This was not expected to be as big of a deal as it ended up being. Obviously the tier shifts come July would be big but this was supposed to be simple easy NFE stuff. That did not happen. Instead of having a few fun NFEs to mess around with, some balanced Pokemon like Basculin, Pincurchin, and just about every Ghost-type have become much, much larger threats thanks to move tutors. We already had a meta where defensive options strained to keep up with offensive ones, this is not super ideal from a balance standpoint.

Things we're looking to immediately quickban: Scyther, Chansey, Porygon2, Magneton. Nothing changed here, they all looked way too big for the tier and don't expect them to last on ladder very long. This should not come as a surprise.

Things we're going to take a very close look at as quickly as we can: Tangela, Kadabra, Basculin. Tangela is really hard to switch into (Knock, powders, leaf storm, sludge bomb, grasses are amazing rn what can u do) and walls a large portion of the meta, obviously some real top tier stuff beats it but it looks likely to force people to keep running all of the Rime or w/e. Not super healthy, at least on paper. Kadabra has 105 Speed and 120 SpA and Magic Guard and no Pursuit, it doesn't seem as immediately overwhelming as Scyther because of its frailty and how we're prepared for Psychics in general already but it seems like a massive pain. Basculin with Water-type U-Turn also looks like it could be a real issue, CB hasn't been as amazing as other sets because it's been fairly prediction reliant but now you can just STAB U-Turn versus the Mareanie switchin or w/e. Looking extremely degenerate and nobody wants to run Palpitoad on every team.

What else might we vote on? Well, this has all been theorymon so keep in mind nothing I've said is absolutely final (except quickban Chansey lol). Silvallies are still getting consideration, nothing changes there. Offensive Gourgiest might really take off, Poltergeist+Power Whip is pretty nutty. Pincurchin now has a 140 BP STAB move in Electric Terrain, that's uh, questionable. Thwackey has 70 BP STAB Grassy Terrain boosted Priority, could make SD sets real big. Hitmontop with Ice coverage? Idk about any of these, we'll see. Tangela/Basculin/Kadabra/Silvallies are the primary candidates right now. Expect a very fast vote on the clearly broken stuff like Chansey, and another vote before Monday as we try to see if anything else I've mentioned above is a clear and immediate problem that can't stick around.

e: NU decided to just already ban Chansey before ladders are even up. Fair enough really.
 
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