NU just quickbanned Chansey
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Metagame np: PU Stage 1 - LA Devotee (Thievul Banned)
- Thread starter MZ
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This gen is unprecedented with its mass mid-generation pokemon drops of which this is only the first, and I think we may have to look for more unusual solutions.
As a refresher, there's at least 3 more mass drops incoming before SS is done (the fully evolved mons that have yet to drop from this DLC, the nfes from the second DLC, then the fully evolved from the second DLC) and additionally the power creep from each of these will probably push other mons from the higher tiers down, giving us even more.
My point is this, if we had all these DLC mons at once instead of in these staggered (current and future) drops, we wouldn't have banned some of the things that we have. This leads to different mons that never get a chance to interact. Not in a previous gen way where mons dropped individually into a finished tier and then went BL, and then those different BL mons never interacted. But in a way where PUBL mons sit collectively above our tier and below theirs as new ones safely drop into our pool, then those PUBL mons never touch upon any of those drops. They didn't all get a chance to stick their toes in to the new pool that 'has more water' in it. 'Water' in this case being the mons that fit right into PU from DLC drops without being broken.
What I don't want to see is the tier remain as-is and shut down every obvious mon (not refering to the byproduct NFEs that don't belong) fall to PU in the from DLC (and later the second DLC) because of how it individually breaks current PU. Because PU itself will be flawed by that point, a mess of bans from different stages of mons being put into the tier, enough to the point where by the end of SS PUBL would look more like a separate tier than a banlist.
I'm proposing at some point we look at a PUBL blanket retest. To give them all (or most) a chance to dip into the new pool. Collectively. And then individually reban whatever needs to be. Individual retests while good, will not work as efficiently and in the future for PU for the reasons of time and interaction.
We don't have to open this can of worms yet, or even at all with this DLC. But it is something that should be thought about for the future. More of the same is coming and must be dealt with, and there is no precedent for this situation to look back at for dealing with it.
As a refresher, there's at least 3 more mass drops incoming before SS is done (the fully evolved mons that have yet to drop from this DLC, the nfes from the second DLC, then the fully evolved from the second DLC) and additionally the power creep from each of these will probably push other mons from the higher tiers down, giving us even more.
My point is this, if we had all these DLC mons at once instead of in these staggered (current and future) drops, we wouldn't have banned some of the things that we have. This leads to different mons that never get a chance to interact. Not in a previous gen way where mons dropped individually into a finished tier and then went BL, and then those different BL mons never interacted. But in a way where PUBL mons sit collectively above our tier and below theirs as new ones safely drop into our pool, then those PUBL mons never touch upon any of those drops. They didn't all get a chance to stick their toes in to the new pool that 'has more water' in it. 'Water' in this case being the mons that fit right into PU from DLC drops without being broken.
What I don't want to see is the tier remain as-is and shut down every obvious mon (not refering to the byproduct NFEs that don't belong) fall to PU in the from DLC (and later the second DLC) because of how it individually breaks current PU. Because PU itself will be flawed by that point, a mess of bans from different stages of mons being put into the tier, enough to the point where by the end of SS PUBL would look more like a separate tier than a banlist.
I'm proposing at some point we look at a PUBL blanket retest. To give them all (or most) a chance to dip into the new pool. Collectively. And then individually reban whatever needs to be. Individual retests while good, will not work as efficiently and in the future for PU for the reasons of time and interaction.
We don't have to open this can of worms yet, or even at all with this DLC. But it is something that should be thought about for the future. More of the same is coming and must be dealt with, and there is no precedent for this situation to look back at for dealing with it.
while i do agree with your point, i think going for a blanket suspect is a very bad idea. what it's gonna lead to is a pokémon being "balanced" just because there's another pokémon also getting suspected that happens to check it or overshadow it - basically what happened (and what's happening) with the silvallies. something similar happened in uu last gen, where they suspected buzzwole and breloom at the same time and breloom was deemed healthy and balanced because buzzwole was also in the tier. while buzzwole didn't get unbanned, breloom did, and people realized breloom became an issue, leading to it getting suspected and later banned. your proposal also means we might be getting multiple threats that might even still be unhealthy or broken in a time in which the tier is already extremely chaotic and messy. for now i think it'd be better to get all of the obvious problematic threats out of the way and maybe retest them later in the generation, after the second dlc, rather than suspecting all of them at the same time.
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Also Scyther got Dual Wingbeat, which is a 40 base power move that hits twice. Basically this dude got Brave Bird with no recoil
I added a spoiler tag because it's kind of big haha.
You example would be correct, in a normal case. This is not the same. Here is my example, it's going to sound theorymon but bear with it because there isn't a previous problem that has confronted us that I can use as an actual example.
Look at VR: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ss-pu-viability-rankings.3662231/
Imagine all the pokemon ranked C-/B-/A- didn't exist in gen 8. Other pokemon would move to 'fit' in those places, with most likely those at the higher end being subject to bans. And imagine that at some point, those same pokemon that didn't exist suddenly came into being later and start in OU, falling through the other tiers until they all end up here. At that point those mons previously banned would've been fine to include in the tier. But their presence without the new added mons was likely is too strong of an intrusion into an otherwise balanced tier. However if they started at the beginning of the tier as they have, we would have the current VR, without the bans. This to some extent is what will happen to PU in the future. It's confusing because we also are going to have/and have had additional drops from above that aren't from the DLC but are caused by it that muddle the waters of what this would look like in an environment where these would be the only variables. We are getting/going to get pokemon that should've been here since the beginning, that weren't taken into consideration when banning X because they didn't exist yet is my point.
About stability. SS PU has never been 'stable' even up to today. We have just gotten too many shake up drops or bans. The period without change in the meta due to a ban or new drop right now averages around every 10 days since April 1st. Honestly it doesn't look like this will change either at least until the beginning of October, when everything will settle temporarily before the second DLC, which will shake the snow globe again. Moving on.
It only stands to reason that with more mons, we should choose to accept a degree of power creep into the tier. Allowing "broken check broken" in an otherwise healthy (I use that term loosely) tier. Otherwise we may never be able to replicate the conditions of what PU would've looked like if we had all these mons at once. This powercreep I refer to is apparent in every tier of every gen besides SS that every tier successively grew to house "stronger and stronger" stuff in comparison to the previous gen. This is just simply because of there being more pokemon in the tier, which lets more fall to lower gens. None previous had the problem of additional mons, barring ORAS mega evolutions which is the closest example, but even then the new megas were tied to the actual pokemon already tiered, and they all pretty much rose or remained. Beyond doing something like making the usage % cutoff relative to the total number of pokemon (as a general balancing the offset of any added mons automatically) we don't have things in place to make less painful the process of additional mons shifting to where they properly belong mid generation, which is why I feel we need something done to deal with it, as it is a completely new wrench thrown to us.
We of course do not have to do anything. We can just let mons fall as they may and ban them as appropriate, even as more 'comfortable fit' mons fall into the tier. The tier will still grow bigger either way. This doesn't need to be done now and I am just bringing it to attention. It's not that big of a perceived problem yet. Would it be a pain to do it now? Yeah, but it's going to be a pain no matter when we do it. Does it, or something like it need to be done at some point so could reach something that would look like a PU that started with all the mons available in the first place? I believe so. Do some of the mons currently in PUBL still belong there? Yes. Should we try to shape the tier as if all these DLC mons were available in the beginning? That's a philosophical question (ohboy) for the council. If the answer is no, then this is all irrelevant and we can continue on our current course. If the answer is yes, as I think it is, then we have work to do in the future. Because I believe it will not be possible to replicate those conditions without these kind of steps one day. Again, early days for this kind of talk.
Look at VR: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ss-pu-viability-rankings.3662231/
Imagine all the pokemon ranked C-/B-/A- didn't exist in gen 8. Other pokemon would move to 'fit' in those places, with most likely those at the higher end being subject to bans. And imagine that at some point, those same pokemon that didn't exist suddenly came into being later and start in OU, falling through the other tiers until they all end up here. At that point those mons previously banned would've been fine to include in the tier. But their presence without the new added mons was likely is too strong of an intrusion into an otherwise balanced tier. However if they started at the beginning of the tier as they have, we would have the current VR, without the bans. This to some extent is what will happen to PU in the future. It's confusing because we also are going to have/and have had additional drops from above that aren't from the DLC but are caused by it that muddle the waters of what this would look like in an environment where these would be the only variables. We are getting/going to get pokemon that should've been here since the beginning, that weren't taken into consideration when banning X because they didn't exist yet is my point.
About stability. SS PU has never been 'stable' even up to today. We have just gotten too many shake up drops or bans. The period without change in the meta due to a ban or new drop right now averages around every 10 days since April 1st. Honestly it doesn't look like this will change either at least until the beginning of October, when everything will settle temporarily before the second DLC, which will shake the snow globe again. Moving on.
It only stands to reason that with more mons, we should choose to accept a degree of power creep into the tier. Allowing "broken check broken" in an otherwise healthy (I use that term loosely) tier. Otherwise we may never be able to replicate the conditions of what PU would've looked like if we had all these mons at once. This powercreep I refer to is apparent in every tier of every gen besides SS that every tier successively grew to house "stronger and stronger" stuff in comparison to the previous gen. This is just simply because of there being more pokemon in the tier, which lets more fall to lower gens. None previous had the problem of additional mons, barring ORAS mega evolutions which is the closest example, but even then the new megas were tied to the actual pokemon already tiered, and they all pretty much rose or remained. Beyond doing something like making the usage % cutoff relative to the total number of pokemon (as a general balancing the offset of any added mons automatically) we don't have things in place to make less painful the process of additional mons shifting to where they properly belong mid generation, which is why I feel we need something done to deal with it, as it is a completely new wrench thrown to us.
We of course do not have to do anything. We can just let mons fall as they may and ban them as appropriate, even as more 'comfortable fit' mons fall into the tier. The tier will still grow bigger either way. This doesn't need to be done now and I am just bringing it to attention. It's not that big of a perceived problem yet. Would it be a pain to do it now? Yeah, but it's going to be a pain no matter when we do it. Does it, or something like it need to be done at some point so could reach something that would look like a PU that started with all the mons available in the first place? I believe so. Do some of the mons currently in PUBL still belong there? Yes. Should we try to shape the tier as if all these DLC mons were available in the beginning? That's a philosophical question (ohboy) for the council. If the answer is no, then this is all irrelevant and we can continue on our current course. If the answer is yes, as I think it is, then we have work to do in the future. Because I believe it will not be possible to replicate those conditions without these kind of steps one day. Again, early days for this kind of talk.
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I wanted to share my opinion on some of the new NFES and some Pokemon in OU right now that I think are likely to drop to PU.
Tangela is a great physical wall with access to status, Knock Off, and recovery in Leech Seed, Synthesis and Regenerator and has a great matchup against the many physical attackers. Unfortunately it's typing gives it common weaknesses to Ice and Fire as well as a horrid Special Defense stat allowing Pokemon like Mr Rime and Specs Manectric to beat it. If I could put it in a rank on the Viability Ranking, I think I would put in A/A- rank imo.
Before the DLC was released, I asked some of the PU room drivers and mods, as well as normal players their opinion on Kadabra in PU, and a lot of people thought it might be banned to NU. One huge downside for me, was that it didn't get NP allowing it to break teams more easily. Lack of Pursuit definitely helps, but the tier is so priority based allowing Pokemon like Hitmontop, Gourgeist, Pikachu, Persian, and Pawniard to beat it easily. Sash Counter is def the best set imo, but LO Magic Guard is great too. I think it's a great addition to PU, but nowhere near broken. Def a A- Pokemon for me rn.
No Kubfu sprite yet :(
Kubfu seems like a ok Pokemon with a pretty average attack stat and not that good defenses. It faces competition from Mienfoo right now who has a better ability and Knock Off for beating Ghost and Psychic types. It's movepool leaves much to be desired as the only move it can use to break Psychic types is U-Turn and the best move it can use to hit Ghosts is Iron Head, which Banded only does about 17.1 - 20.3% to Gourgeist-Super which is the premiere Ghost wall rn. I could see Kubfu being C rank.
...
Dunsparce seems like it would be an okay flinch coil user, but it's too slow and the Fighting and Ghost Types in the tier rn just trample over it. A set with 252 HP and Speed also takes 52.2 - 61.8% from any Silvally's Multi Attack. The bulk is actually pretty decent with 100/70/65 defenses. I can see it being used a whole lot more in ZU once it most likely drops to there.
I really don't think this thing will drop to PU but if it does, then it will be one of the most threatening breakers ever, especially paired with Grassy Terrain. Its dual STAB hit literally everything in the tier, and I don't count Mawile and Pawniard as checks because they both take over 95% damage with a chance to OHKO even. Trick Room sets are also extremely threatening and defensive wish pass sets are looking really good as well with 95/85/75 bulk. It's most common answers would be Offensive Ice types like Rime, G-Mime, and Glaceon. Swords Dance could even be viable since it is coming off a pretty good 95 Attack. It also takes only about 70 damage from a Pawniard's Sucker Punch, although you would usually be using Knock Off on it, unless it was under TR. If you want to see the a really dumb calc, look below.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Dusclops in Grassy Terrain: 177-208 (62.3 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
-2 252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Dusclops in Grassy Terrain: 88-105 (30.9 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery < -- Dusclops, which is one of the best Special walls in PU isn't even a check if you are under G-Terrain.
I was going to make the post longer but I got tired and took a break. Might update it with some new Pokemon later. Thanks for listening!
Tangela is a great physical wall with access to status, Knock Off, and recovery in Leech Seed, Synthesis and Regenerator and has a great matchup against the many physical attackers. Unfortunately it's typing gives it common weaknesses to Ice and Fire as well as a horrid Special Defense stat allowing Pokemon like Mr Rime and Specs Manectric to beat it. If I could put it in a rank on the Viability Ranking, I think I would put in A/A- rank imo. Before the DLC was released, I asked some of the PU room drivers and mods, as well as normal players their opinion on Kadabra in PU, and a lot of people thought it might be banned to NU. One huge downside for me, was that it didn't get NP allowing it to break teams more easily. Lack of Pursuit definitely helps, but the tier is so priority based allowing Pokemon like Hitmontop, Gourgeist, Pikachu, Persian, and Pawniard to beat it easily. Sash Counter is def the best set imo, but LO Magic Guard is great too. I think it's a great addition to PU, but nowhere near broken. Def a A- Pokemon for me rn.No Kubfu sprite yet :(
Kubfu seems like a ok Pokemon with a pretty average attack stat and not that good defenses. It faces competition from Mienfoo right now who has a better ability and Knock Off for beating Ghost and Psychic types. It's movepool leaves much to be desired as the only move it can use to break Psychic types is U-Turn and the best move it can use to hit Ghosts is Iron Head, which Banded only does about 17.1 - 20.3% to Gourgeist-Super which is the premiere Ghost wall rn. I could see Kubfu being C rank.
... Dunsparce seems like it would be an okay flinch coil user, but it's too slow and the Fighting and Ghost Types in the tier rn just trample over it. A set with 252 HP and Speed also takes 52.2 - 61.8% from any Silvally's Multi Attack. The bulk is actually pretty decent with 100/70/65 defenses. I can see it being used a whole lot more in ZU once it most likely drops to there. I really don't think this thing will drop to PU but if it does, then it will be one of the most threatening breakers ever, especially paired with Grassy Terrain. Its dual STAB hit literally everything in the tier, and I don't count Mawile and Pawniard as checks because they both take over 95% damage with a chance to OHKO even. Trick Room sets are also extremely threatening and defensive wish pass sets are looking really good as well with 95/85/75 bulk. It's most common answers would be Offensive Ice types like Rime, G-Mime, and Glaceon. Swords Dance could even be viable since it is coming off a pretty good 95 Attack. It also takes only about 70 damage from a Pawniard's Sucker Punch, although you would usually be using Knock Off on it, unless it was under TR. If you want to see the a really dumb calc, look below.252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Dusclops in Grassy Terrain: 177-208 (62.3 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
-2 252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Dusclops in Grassy Terrain: 88-105 (30.9 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery < -- Dusclops, which is one of the best Special walls in PU isn't even a check if you are under G-Terrain.
I was going to make the post longer but I got tired and took a break. Might update it with some new Pokemon later. Thanks for listening!
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I updated my old list of returning mons/mons that got moveset changes thanks to expanded TMs/TRs. This time all possibly PU Pokemon are on the list since we obviously have the DLC now. I also added tutor moves to those Pokemon that get them as long as they are relevant or viable in competitive use. As we find out more about Crown Tundra, I'll update the list, but for now, this should be mostly complete.
As always, if you wish to avoid spoilers, don't click on the lists. If you find errors in the list, please don't reply with some one-liner, pm me on Smogon or Discord.
Spikes, Agility, Scorching Sands (Kanto only), Triple Axel (Alola only)
Self-Destruct, Draining Kiss, Misty Explosion
does NOT get NP or Aura Sphere 
Flip Turn
Drain Punch, Superpower, Muddy Water, Close Combat, Darkest Lariat, Liquidation, Earth Power
Expanding Force
Grassy Glide, Expanding Force (Kanto only)
Scorching Sands
High Horsepower
Lash Out
Liquidation, Earth Power
Body Press
Play Rough, Psychic Fangs, Agility
Play Rough, Close Combat, Acrobatics, U-turn, Reversal
Hydro Pump, Body Press
Pollen Puff
Scorching Sands
Energy Ball, Rising Voltage
Body Slam, Close Combat
Dual Wingbeat
Rising Voltage
Play Rough, Rock Blast, Close Combat, Psychic Fangs
Bullet Seed, Psycho Cut, Cross Poison, Grassy Glide
A LEAK HAS COME OUT WITH WHAT IS VERY LIKELY THE FULL DEX OF CROWN TUNDRA. THIS LIST INCLUDES THAT LEAK, DON'T CLICK IF YOU DON'T WANT SPOILERS.
Future Sight, Stored Power
Rock Blast, Psycho Cut, Cross Poison, Razor Shell
Weather Ball, Icicle Spear, Brave Bird
Rock Blast, Body Press
Rock Blast, Power Whip
Close Combat
Swords Dance, Icicle Spear, Hydro Pump, Heavy Slam, Liquidation, Body Press
Rock Blast, Liquidation, Body Press
Cosmic Power
Rock Blast, Body Press
Hex, Phantom Force
Weather Ball, Darkest Lariat
Mysical Fire, Weather Ball
Drain Punch, Draining Kiss, Encore, Nasty Plot, Stored Power, Play Rough
Protect, Rest, Darkest Lariat, Heat Crash, Body Press
Body Slam
Rock Blast, Razor Shell
Charm, Body Press
Self-Destruct
Weather Ball, Rock Blast, Icicle Spear, Body Slam
Body Slam, Heat Crash, Body Press
Close Combat, Psychic Fangs
Beat Up, Body Slam, Close Combat, Psychic Fangs
Brave Bird
Body Slam
Self-Destruct, Draining Kiss
Nasty Plot, Psychic Fangs
Heat Crash
Nasty Plot
Superpower (legal with Rapid Spin)
Power Whip
Future Sight, Heavy Slam, Body Press
As always, if you wish to avoid spoilers, don't click on the lists. If you find errors in the list, please don't reply with some one-liner, pm me on Smogon or Discord.
Spikes, Agility, Scorching Sands (Kanto only), Triple Axel (Alola only) Self-Destruct, Draining Kiss, Misty Explosion does NOT get NP or Aura Sphere Flip Turn Drain Punch, Superpower, Muddy Water, Close Combat, Darkest Lariat, Liquidation, Earth Power Expanding ForceGrassy Glide, Expanding Force (Kanto only) Scorching Sands High HorsepowerLash Out Liquidation, Earth Power Body Press Play Rough, Psychic Fangs, Agility Play Rough, Close Combat, Acrobatics, U-turn, Reversal Hydro Pump, Body Press Pollen PuffScorching Sands Energy Ball, Rising Voltage Body Slam, Close CombatDual WingbeatRising Voltage Play Rough, Rock Blast, Close Combat, Psychic Fangs Bullet Seed, Psycho Cut, Cross Poison, Grassy GlideA LEAK HAS COME OUT WITH WHAT IS VERY LIKELY THE FULL DEX OF CROWN TUNDRA. THIS LIST INCLUDES THAT LEAK, DON'T CLICK IF YOU DON'T WANT SPOILERS.
Future Sight, Stored Power Rock Blast, Psycho Cut, Cross Poison, Razor Shell Weather Ball, Icicle Spear, Brave Bird Rock Blast, Body Press Rock Blast, Power Whip Close Combat Swords Dance, Icicle Spear, Hydro Pump, Heavy Slam, Liquidation, Body Press Rock Blast, Liquidation, Body Press Cosmic Power Rock Blast, Body Press Hex, Phantom Force Weather Ball, Darkest Lariat Mysical Fire, Weather Ball Drain Punch, Draining Kiss, Encore, Nasty Plot, Stored Power, Play Rough Protect, Rest, Darkest Lariat, Heat Crash, Body Press Body Slam Rock Blast, Razor Shell Charm, Body Press Self-Destruct Weather Ball, Rock Blast, Icicle Spear, Body Slam Body Slam, Heat Crash, Body Press Close Combat, Psychic Fangs Beat Up, Body Slam, Close Combat, Psychic Fangs Brave Bird Body Slam Self-Destruct, Draining Kiss Nasty Plot, Psychic Fangs Heat Crash Nasty Plot Superpower (legal with Rapid Spin) Power Whip Future Sight, Heavy Slam, Body Press
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A humble proposal from a bunch of stinky players.
With the recent DLC, the tier got a handful of new toys and moves to play with. Some of them, like Kadabra and Flip Turn Basculin, have already proven themselves to be very good, but these new threats havent made the old ones any less unhealthy or any less broken. This post is gonna cover why we don't think they should be overlooked, and why we think they're still pressing issues that require more relevance.
As we know, next week of PUPL won't feature any of the new moves/Pokemon that were introduced through DLC, meaning that we will have to deal with the potentially bannable Silvally formes for yet another week because of the new content. We understand that council wants to keep Silvally since the main focus now lies on DLC moves and Pokemon, and they also want to keep them for a bit longer to see if they are able to be more healthy post DLC, but this point of view inherently affects the current PUPL and other tours such as PU Open and Kickoff in the process.
Its been around 2 weeks since the vote on Golurk and Rapidash-G happened, which shouldve given council enough time to determine if the Silvally formes that they deemed problematic (Psychic, Grass, Electric, Bug, as well as other formes such as Rock that havent been voted on) have stayed that way. If it wasn't for the DLC we probably would have a vote by now, and were aware that reintroducing PUBL Pokemon later on was already part of the plan. Voting on Silvally now after having had enough experience with what they do should be enough for a decision to happen, even if theyre not the main broken threats in the meta right now and it would also help PUPL and PU Open be more stable since these tours dont have to deal with DLC yet. Having the council vote for these threats before the latter tour would also expose a lot of new players from other tiers to a much more healthier, fun, and playable metagame, and it would make it easier for the metagame to adapt to the upcoming Pokémon we're getting during the next tier shifts.
The ideal situation from our opinion would be:
1. Have a vote on the problematic Silvally formes before Week 2 of PUPL.
2. Week 2 would include bans but not DLC.
3. Week 3 introduces DLC and whatever vote takes place during Week 2.
4. Reintroduce certain threats from PUBL after a while if the possibility of them being healthy exists according to council and the community, when the meta has settled down.
Slowly we can start looking at reintroducing mons if the environment changes enough, but expecting things to get better or gouging the potentiality of these new moves to break the meta, while having issues like Silvally right in front of us will only slow things down and damage the competitive factor that these tours are trying to bring. In pre DLC meta, it seems as if a big portion of the community has made up their mind regarding Silvally, so why not take action, improve the competitive aspect of the relevant tours short term and then focus on if these threats turn out to be healthy in the long term?
Under normal circumstances, we'd advocate for council to wait until the next tier shifts to vote on anything controversial - like Silvally. However, PUPL just started, and PU Open is coming very soon. For the sake of these two tours, and for the sake of playability, we think the unhealthy / broken threats, which include the ones that were issues before the DLC, should be voted on as soon as possible. Thank you so much for reading.
Thanks to gum, avarice, asa, royesk, zS, twitch.tv/Bag_of_Trixx, and Musharnanigans for helping me write this post and sharing their opinions!
So I suppose I have been too quiet on this, but the proposal of freezing Week 2 is one that I actually pitched to the managers before PUPL even started as a potential option for us. However, the idea was stalled out and opinions with managers are mixed enough (combined with the absurdly late notice at this point) that we are most likely not going to go with the freeze.
As for the reintroduction of PUBL mons...I think just about everyone is on board with the idea. The problem is timing. There's the DLC that just hit along with the second large DLC hit we will get in July, so that's about 2 months of us just dealing with the large influx of mons. After that we can potentially, but now we are talking August. After all of that as well, I really am not a fan of immediately stirring the pot that just settled, and that is ignoring the possibility of NU passing us even more problematic stuff from the first genuine shift post-DLC. So now we are talking September...
The main thing I guess I want to impart is just how horrendous of a spot all of this DLC crap puts PU in. PU is in a very unique spot where it is hit mutiple times by DLC while keeping all of the breakers and none of the walls. The metagame is constantly upended as we are forced to cut deeper and deeper through both our original list and all of the scraps every other tier gives us. There is also the problem of people being generally unable to fully agree on which direction the format should go, which is actually well cited by the fact that this post actually fails to name which Silvally is problematic in those opinions unless you meant all of them (which is also a debated point). The metagame shifts around so much and in so many different directions that its in a constant state of upheaval and any metagame struggles to keep a shape in that climate. Is it possible to fully stabilize the tier that is hit twice by DLC before the next week of PUPL? No, but also that might not be inherently bad.
It has been a good while since I have actually put down my thoughts on metagame theory, so I guess I will slap it on at the end.
I think a metagame's true state is cyclical rather than a particular static state where everything is balanced. From my experience and observations, almost all metagames that are considered "good" go through a cycle consisting of it becoming more and more offensive until it snaps back to defensive being the premiere style.
Players will always look for an advantage or some sort of way to get an inherent edge over an opponent. With this in mind it is reasonable to say that players are not truly interested in a fully balanced metagame because they, in their pursuit of advantageous matchups, are constantly trying to break it. The best way to get these edges is to run offense, because offense is the playstyle that better dictates the momentum of a match. With this in mind, an arms race of offense vs better offense becomes normal as players try to one-up each other over and over.
However, this arms race falls apart at a certain point. Anti-offense tech in general fails to perform in the offense vs stall matchup. So after a while, as players ante up, the pursuit of more momentum in the form of more offensive teams becomes...not worth it. The consistency of defensive teams inevitably trumps the hyper-offense that the cycle lead everyone to and the entire thing is reset as players shift back to slower-but-more-consistent builds. This isn't to say that all tiers are doomed to hard stall of course...even bulky offense fits the bill. But, if my personal theory holds, all metagames will go through the cycle of offense to faster offense back to bulky offense eventually. And this is something to be embraced, as it allows if not encourages players to experiment and "break the metagame" while still fitting into a reasonable margin of error.
If you need reasonable proof of concept for my idea, Gen4 PU is the tier where I basically have full control and it has a cyclical lifespan. Currently we are in the "offense vs faster offense" phase, so we will see when and if it snaps back.
Players will always look for an advantage or some sort of way to get an inherent edge over an opponent. With this in mind it is reasonable to say that players are not truly interested in a fully balanced metagame because they, in their pursuit of advantageous matchups, are constantly trying to break it. The best way to get these edges is to run offense, because offense is the playstyle that better dictates the momentum of a match. With this in mind, an arms race of offense vs better offense becomes normal as players try to one-up each other over and over.
However, this arms race falls apart at a certain point. Anti-offense tech in general fails to perform in the offense vs stall matchup. So after a while, as players ante up, the pursuit of more momentum in the form of more offensive teams becomes...not worth it. The consistency of defensive teams inevitably trumps the hyper-offense that the cycle lead everyone to and the entire thing is reset as players shift back to slower-but-more-consistent builds. This isn't to say that all tiers are doomed to hard stall of course...even bulky offense fits the bill. But, if my personal theory holds, all metagames will go through the cycle of offense to faster offense back to bulky offense eventually. And this is something to be embraced, as it allows if not encourages players to experiment and "break the metagame" while still fitting into a reasonable margin of error.
If you need reasonable proof of concept for my idea, Gen4 PU is the tier where I basically have full control and it has a cyclical lifespan. Currently we are in the "offense vs faster offense" phase, so we will see when and if it snaps back.
The tl;dr is that I don't think a metagame in a state of flux is bad. If anything, it should be expected. However, with how fast things are moving, it is difficult to fully flesh out the metagame in a fully meaningful way. So, for the short term (i.e. until the DLC is fully done and we can sleep) it is better to try and push for some coherent form of the metagame. But in order to know what that form wants to be, we need to give these mons time to shift as they will. Not all of them
But that is just my personal take. And with most of my personal opinions, it took a bunch of paragraphs to say that I personally want to wait and see more before taking too deep of cuts.
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Not to distract from all the larger things going on, but Isle of Armor also released a few new hidden abilities that had been missed until now. Stakeout Thievul, Bulletproof Dubwool, and Gluttony Greedent are now legal. Two of those seem completely irrelevant, but...
Not saying this will be amazing, obviously Stakeout "2hkos" aren't really 2hkos exactly and it's still checked by everything faster and 1v1d by a not insignificant portion of the tier. On the other hand,
252+ SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Thievul Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mawile: 169-199 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Thievul Burning Jealousy vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mawile: 396-466 (130.6 - 153.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Thievul Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Type: Null: 163-193 (41.3 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Thievul Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Shiinotic: 118-139 (36.4 - 42.9%) -- 97.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Thievul Burning Jealousy vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Shiinotic: 276-326 (85.1 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Thievul Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Throh: 394-464 (88.7 - 104.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Thievul Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 220-260 (95.2 - 112.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Thievul Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mawile: 169-199 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Thievul Burning Jealousy vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mawile: 396-466 (130.6 - 153.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Thievul Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Type: Null: 163-193 (41.3 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Thievul Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Shiinotic: 118-139 (36.4 - 42.9%) -- 97.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Thievul Burning Jealousy vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Shiinotic: 276-326 (85.1 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Thievul Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Throh: 394-464 (88.7 - 104.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Thievul Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 220-260 (95.2 - 112.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Yep right now we're voting on some other now potentially broken pokemon in the meta, while also voting on some new NFEs. Porygon2, Magneton, and Scyther were done much quicker because it was 100% obvious they were too much
After the latest PU council vote, Basculin, Hitmontop, all 3 Gourgeist forms, and Silvallies Electric, Psychic, Grass, and Bug are all banned from PU. We are absolutely going to be talking about the need for such a massive change more through council minutes and discussion on Discord and in the PU room, but in the meantime feel free to post about your reactions to this, feelings on the metagame without these Pokemon, and what if anything might be broken now.
first metagame-related post of the generation, woot woot
Not gonna make too long a post about this, but I seriously think that an eye should be kept on Thievul with these quickbans and the DLC changes. Hitmontop was arguably the most consistent revenge killer, since Life Orb Technician Mach Punch could easily pick +1 Defense Thievul off with a little bit of prior damage. With Hitmontop gone + both Thwackey and Pincurchin still being good and getting better through some additions to their movepools, I feel as if supporting a Thievul sweep is now a little too easy. Of course, Pokemon like Togetic and Shiinotic exist to take on Thievul even after setting up, and new toys like Grassy Glide Thwackey and Focus Sash Kadabra can stop it in its tracks if it's chipped enough; however, all of these examples only fit on specific builds, and simply waiting for them to be weakened or removed isn't hard + is typically preferred. Not calling for any immediate action, though the fox does seem annoying for the average team to handle.
Didn't mention its Choice Specs Stakeout set at all because the ability only just became legal on it, though I'm interested to see how it plays into Thievul's overall viability. If I end up using it, I'll probably make a follow-up post about it or just edit this post.
Not gonna make too long a post about this, but I seriously think that an eye should be kept on Thievul with these quickbans and the DLC changes. Hitmontop was arguably the most consistent revenge killer, since Life Orb Technician Mach Punch could easily pick +1 Defense Thievul off with a little bit of prior damage. With Hitmontop gone + both Thwackey and Pincurchin still being good and getting better through some additions to their movepools, I feel as if supporting a Thievul sweep is now a little too easy. Of course, Pokemon like Togetic and Shiinotic exist to take on Thievul even after setting up, and new toys like Grassy Glide Thwackey and Focus Sash Kadabra can stop it in its tracks if it's chipped enough; however, all of these examples only fit on specific builds, and simply waiting for them to be weakened or removed isn't hard + is typically preferred. Not calling for any immediate action, though the fox does seem annoying for the average team to handle.
Didn't mention its Choice Specs Stakeout set at all because the ability only just became legal on it, though I'm interested to see how it plays into Thievul's overall viability. If I end up using it, I'll probably make a follow-up post about it or just edit this post.
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Thievulf also gain new coverage in fire.. dark/psychic/fire + uturn make a strong wallbreaker with stakeout and better cleaner with unburden..first metagame-related post of the generation, woot woot
Not gonna make too long a post about this, but I seriously think that an eye should be kept on Thievul with these quickbans and the DLC changes. Hitmontop was arguably the most consistent revenge killer, since Life Orb Technician Mach Punch could easily pick +1 Defense Thievul off with a little bit of prior damage. With Hitmontop gone + both Thwackey and Pincurchin still being good and getting better through some additions to their movepools, I feel as if supporting a Thievul is now a little too easy. Of course, Pokemon like Togetic and Shiinotic exist to take on Thievul even after setting up, and new toys like Grassy Glide Thwackey and Focus Sash Kadabra can stop it in its tracks if it's chipped enough; however, all of these examples only fit on specific builds, and simply waiting for them to be weakened or removed isn't hard + is typically preferred. Not calling for any immediate action, though the fox does seem annoying for the average team to handle.
Didn't mention its Choice Specs Stakeout set at all because the ability only just became legal on it, though I'm interested to see how it plays into Thievul's overall viability. If I end up using it, I'll probably make a follow-up post about it or just edit this post.
Thwackey become so good with the rise of gourg.. cb grassy glide looking really nice now
This is an exciting phase in PU beta.
A few jumbled thoughts I had in my head:
For anyone who has lost Gourgeist on their team:
Some changes are easier to make than others, for instance, banning Gourgeist whilst simultaneously getting rid of Basculin means Dusknoir is a very nice fit instead of Physical offensive Gourg had you previously had it on your team. Trevenant can also be used and has the same typing as Gourg albeit worse bulk and lack of Shadow Sneak hurts.
Stall has a few new tools in Tangela, Slowpoke and Licky.
Slowpoke is smiling even more now, with the loss of Silvally Grass AND Electric whilst Gourgeist is out of the picture.
Hitmontop provided hazard removal, dark-type check, priority spam and overall just an offensive threat all in one.
I for one find that using hyper offense hazard stack without it blows. For these archetypes, abusing fast Taunters seem to be the way to go to keep hazards down. I've been using a combination of:
Taunt Thwackey + Jolly Taunt offensive Dusknoir + Taunt Carvahna to overwhelm balance who now have to either:
a) use Mr Rime as a spinner who Dusknoir can at least take a hit or two from
b) use defoggers who are all very slow such as Togetic, Vespiqueen, Vibrava and friends.
Taunt spam also has a much more dangerous effect; since the opponent cannot defog most of the time, you force them into having to make very hard sequences which carry alot of risk and which can be punished by Hyper offense. Additionally, you force switches, bulky pivots such as Type Null and Mareanie cannot recover damage off and all of a sudden sweeping becomes much easier. I strongly recommend trying Taunt spam as it does incredibly well in the current metagame, especially with priority Thwackey who just stops defog Silvally-Rock from Defogging.
In other news, thievul is becoming more and more notorious due to factors which other posts alluded to. Having seen some ladder players of all rankings resort to using Stunky/Krok/Scraggy as a safety measure against this demon speaks volume. It's too early to say whether the Fox is bust.
Seaking has a great niche and the loss of Silvally-Grass whilst obtaining Flip turn makes it an underrated pivot. It has respectable sp.def as well.
A few jumbled thoughts I had in my head:
For anyone who has lost Gourgeist on their team:
Some changes are easier to make than others, for instance, banning Gourgeist whilst simultaneously getting rid of Basculin means Dusknoir is a very nice fit instead of Physical offensive Gourg had you previously had it on your team. Trevenant can also be used and has the same typing as Gourg albeit worse bulk and lack of Shadow Sneak hurts.
Stall has a few new tools in Tangela, Slowpoke and Licky.
Slowpoke is smiling even more now, with the loss of Silvally Grass AND Electric whilst Gourgeist is out of the picture.
Hitmontop provided hazard removal, dark-type check, priority spam and overall just an offensive threat all in one.
I for one find that using hyper offense hazard stack without it blows. For these archetypes, abusing fast Taunters seem to be the way to go to keep hazards down. I've been using a combination of:
Taunt Thwackey + Jolly Taunt offensive Dusknoir + Taunt Carvahna to overwhelm balance who now have to either:
a) use Mr Rime as a spinner who Dusknoir can at least take a hit or two from
b) use defoggers who are all very slow such as Togetic, Vespiqueen, Vibrava and friends.
Taunt spam also has a much more dangerous effect; since the opponent cannot defog most of the time, you force them into having to make very hard sequences which carry alot of risk and which can be punished by Hyper offense. Additionally, you force switches, bulky pivots such as Type Null and Mareanie cannot recover damage off and all of a sudden sweeping becomes much easier. I strongly recommend trying Taunt spam as it does incredibly well in the current metagame, especially with priority Thwackey who just stops defog Silvally-Rock from Defogging.
In other news, thievul is becoming more and more notorious due to factors which other posts alluded to. Having seen some ladder players of all rankings resort to using Stunky/Krok/Scraggy as a safety measure against this demon speaks volume. It's too early to say whether the Fox is bust.
Seaking has a great niche and the loss of Silvally-Grass whilst obtaining Flip turn makes it an underrated pivot. It has respectable sp.def as well.
It'll be interesting to see how the usage of Knock Off (and by extension itemless sets) changes with Poltergeist. It'll probably not influence team structure beyond "not pairing Pawniard and Dusknoir," but at least there's some hypothetical drawback to spamming the move. Also Grassy Glide on CB Thwackey is hilarious.
To actually contribute something more substantial to the discussion, have played a few games recently and Silvally-Rock sits in a good place with the better Silvallys axed. Don't have a team to share right now (still playing around with stuff) but Silvally-Rock + Band Thwackey + Future Sight Beheeyem is a lot of fun. Will hold off on calling it broken yet but definitely solid as a rock (badum tss).
@ Rock Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Multi-Attack
- Psychic Fangs
- Swords Dance
- Parting Shot / Flame Charge / Filler
SD with Multi-Attack, Psychic Fangs, and some filler in the last slot (Parting Shot, U-Turn, Flame Charge, etc) is the set I've been using. 120BP Rock STAB is good neutral coverage, and given some of our best Rock resists are bulky fighting-types, Psychic Fangs complements it almost perfectly. Great thing is most of them are slower so if you SD on the switch they'll just drop. Last move is team-specific; I'm a fan of Parting Shot/U-Turn because pivoting early-game is nice but something like Flame Charge is helpful vs Offense (or Flamethrower to bring the heat vs things like Tangela/Mawile). 95 Speed is pretty fast all things considered and its defenses aren't too shabby (in spite of its mediocre defensive typing) so you can usually eat a hit while setting up.
Dealing with Rockvally offensively is kind of risky as, besides Thwackey who can't take any hits, revenge killing it can be difficult. Slower fighting-types don't like eating boosted Psychic Fangs. Leafeon can drop to 2 Multi Attacks (granted it comes down to a speed tie), and if Silvally has a Flame Charge under its belt then some slower scarfers/Raichu can fail to deal with it. Manectric does 40-50% with Thunderbolt and then drops to unboosted Multi-Attack.
There is definitely more defensive counterplay to Rockvally, specifically bulky ground-types, Mawile, and Tangela. If you're up for some heat the latter 2 can be dealt with running Flamethrower in the last spot (you'll need to Knock Off Tangela's Eviolite first though), as even Jolly Flamethrower will 2HKO them. Silvally does not have the means to break through the Ground-types though, but fortunately they aren't the hardest to deal with (they're generally pretty passive so Thwackey/Tangela make great teammates, Thwackey reduces EQ damage too) by teammates.
EDIT: Wording & Grammar
To actually contribute something more substantial to the discussion, have played a few games recently and Silvally-Rock sits in a good place with the better Silvallys axed. Don't have a team to share right now (still playing around with stuff) but Silvally-Rock + Band Thwackey + Future Sight Beheeyem is a lot of fun. Will hold off on calling it broken yet but definitely solid as a rock (badum tss).
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Multi-Attack
- Psychic Fangs
- Swords Dance
- Parting Shot / Flame Charge / Filler
SD with Multi-Attack, Psychic Fangs, and some filler in the last slot (Parting Shot, U-Turn, Flame Charge, etc) is the set I've been using. 120BP Rock STAB is good neutral coverage, and given some of our best Rock resists are bulky fighting-types, Psychic Fangs complements it almost perfectly. Great thing is most of them are slower so if you SD on the switch they'll just drop. Last move is team-specific; I'm a fan of Parting Shot/U-Turn because pivoting early-game is nice but something like Flame Charge is helpful vs Offense (or Flamethrower to bring the heat vs things like Tangela/Mawile). 95 Speed is pretty fast all things considered and its defenses aren't too shabby (in spite of its mediocre defensive typing) so you can usually eat a hit while setting up.
Dealing with Rockvally offensively is kind of risky as, besides Thwackey who can't take any hits, revenge killing it can be difficult. Slower fighting-types don't like eating boosted Psychic Fangs. Leafeon can drop to 2 Multi Attacks (granted it comes down to a speed tie), and if Silvally has a Flame Charge under its belt then some slower scarfers/Raichu can fail to deal with it. Manectric does 40-50% with Thunderbolt and then drops to unboosted Multi-Attack.
There is definitely more defensive counterplay to Rockvally, specifically bulky ground-types, Mawile, and Tangela. If you're up for some heat the latter 2 can be dealt with running Flamethrower in the last spot (you'll need to Knock Off Tangela's Eviolite first though), as even Jolly Flamethrower will 2HKO them. Silvally does not have the means to break through the Ground-types though, but fortunately they aren't the hardest to deal with (they're generally pretty passive so Thwackey/Tangela make great teammates, Thwackey reduces EQ damage too) by teammates.
VS Fighting-Types
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Rock Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Grapploct: 326-384 (89.5 - 105.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Rock Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Throh: 342-404 (77 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Silvally-Rock Multi-Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Falinks: 79-93 (29.1 - 34.3%) -- 68.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Silvally-Rock Psychic Fangs vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Falinks: 150-178 (55.3 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
6% From SR + 29% From Multi-Attack + 55% from Psychic Fangs comes out to 90% in a worst case scenario, so it can't set-up No Retreat freely
VS Defensive Answers
0- SpA Silvally-Rock Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 56 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 136-160 (40.7 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0- SpA Silvally-Rock Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 56 SpD Tangela: 204-240 (61 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- SpA Silvally-Rock Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Mawile: 178-210 (58.7 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
VS Other Offensive Checks
252 Atk Silvally-Rock Multi-Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manectric: 238-282 (84.6 - 100.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Silvally-Rock Multi-Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raichu: 255-301 (97.7 - 115.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Silvally-Rock Multi-Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thwackey: 211-250 (75 - 88.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Rock Multi-Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Leafeon: 252-297 (92.9 - 109.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Rock Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Grapploct: 326-384 (89.5 - 105.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Rock Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Throh: 342-404 (77 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Silvally-Rock Multi-Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Falinks: 79-93 (29.1 - 34.3%) -- 68.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Silvally-Rock Psychic Fangs vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Falinks: 150-178 (55.3 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
6% From SR + 29% From Multi-Attack + 55% from Psychic Fangs comes out to 90% in a worst case scenario, so it can't set-up No Retreat freely
VS Defensive Answers
0- SpA Silvally-Rock Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 56 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 136-160 (40.7 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0- SpA Silvally-Rock Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 56 SpD Tangela: 204-240 (61 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- SpA Silvally-Rock Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Mawile: 178-210 (58.7 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
VS Other Offensive Checks
252 Atk Silvally-Rock Multi-Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manectric: 238-282 (84.6 - 100.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Silvally-Rock Multi-Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raichu: 255-301 (97.7 - 115.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Silvally-Rock Multi-Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thwackey: 211-250 (75 - 88.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Rock Multi-Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Leafeon: 252-297 (92.9 - 109.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
EDIT: Wording & Grammar
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With the banning of all 
forms, 
, 
Grass, and 
with Triple Axel, 
has lost many checks as well as gaining a better reason to use it even more being the release of Rising Voltage. I can certainly see this Pokemon rising in viability.
I also wanted to talk about three mons that I think work really well together which are AV
, Stealth Rock, and WishPass 
/ (if it drops to PU which is unlikely). Lickitung helps provide recovery for both Pokemon who don't have reliable ways of gaining health back. Stunfisk helps provide hazards to wittle down Pokemon for Dusknoir and acts as a good switch in to Rising Voltage and Electric types in general as I don't have any switchins to it. Dusknoir can spin block and special hits for Stunfisk as well as being a Fighting switch-in for Lickitung. The three main spinners I see right now are Rime, Mime, and Wartortle which Dusknoir can take hits from and kill easily.
EDIT: Grammar Fixed
forms, , Grass, and with Triple Axel, has lost many checks as well as gaining a better reason to use it even more being the release of Rising Voltage. I can certainly see this Pokemon rising in viability.I also wanted to talk about three mons that I think work really well together which are AV
, Stealth Rock, and WishPass / (if it drops to PU which is unlikely). Lickitung helps provide recovery for both Pokemon who don't have reliable ways of gaining health back. Stunfisk helps provide hazards to wittle down Pokemon for Dusknoir and acts as a good switch in to Rising Voltage and Electric types in general as I don't have any switchins to it. Dusknoir can spin block and special hits for Stunfisk as well as being a Fighting switch-in for Lickitung. The three main spinners I see right now are Rime, Mime, and Wartortle which Dusknoir can take hits from and kill easily.EDIT: Grammar Fixed
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I'm going to make a post since zard asked for it in Untier Talk
This mon is kinda sorta broken right now. Specs quite literally has no switchins due to Stakeout as even Dark resists like Throh can take almost 50% switching in and die to Psychic while Type: Null, arguably the best blanket special check in the tier also takes 50%. Burning Jealousy was also such a great addition to its movepool letting it run through Pawniard and Mawile, but it doesn't need that too much when even SpDef Mawile takes 55% and Pawn is almost always OHKOd.
The Unburden sets are also still just as threatening as ever. As asa stated above, Mach Punch Hitmontop was the most reliable way to beat it and with it gone, First Impression is now the best way. But Unburden Thievul can easily fit Protect into its set, making this useless. Thwackey and Pincurchin are also great partners for it, either providing Grassy Terrain healing and breaking special walls, or providing hazard support to wear stuff down respectively.
I honestly think that this should straight up be banned right now but a few people on Discord expressed that they'd like to keep it until the July tier shifts just to see what happens, and I guess I'd be okay with that but I think there's no doubt that this is a big Thievul metagame right now.
This mon is kinda sorta broken right now. Specs quite literally has no switchins due to Stakeout as even Dark resists like Throh can take almost 50% switching in and die to Psychic while Type: Null, arguably the best blanket special check in the tier also takes 50%. Burning Jealousy was also such a great addition to its movepool letting it run through Pawniard and Mawile, but it doesn't need that too much when even SpDef Mawile takes 55% and Pawn is almost always OHKOd.
The Unburden sets are also still just as threatening as ever. As asa stated above, Mach Punch Hitmontop was the most reliable way to beat it and with it gone, First Impression is now the best way. But Unburden Thievul can easily fit Protect into its set, making this useless. Thwackey and Pincurchin are also great partners for it, either providing Grassy Terrain healing and breaking special walls, or providing hazard support to wear stuff down respectively.
I honestly think that this should straight up be banned right now but a few people on Discord expressed that they'd like to keep it until the July tier shifts just to see what happens, and I guess I'd be okay with that but I think there's no doubt that this is a big Thievul metagame right now.
it's hard to post about a X day old meta, it just kinda gets old, especially when you know that the meta is gonna change in a week or less due to bans/more drops
so anyway about the changes: the most banworthy imo was gourgeist, why? well yeah the tutor move turned it (along with trev) from a grass type that just happens to have a secondary ghost typing to it finally being able to back up its ghost typing with a move one thats on par in strength of power whip/wood hammer and a quick look a normal types shows we have a near 0 ammount = unresisted coverage, our only relevant normals are dubwool and null which, if they come in do 0 back, one cant even toxic lmao and still are threatened by the grass move... now we may be getting normals from quickdrops that would've helped (especially bouff, but any of them have more options than our current ones) but thats in a week, but hey its something
it had more power than basc and more speed than hitmontop, outspeeding rime is enough these days... moving on maybe because of how long we've been dealing with working around silvs I found them less needing of the ban then of the tutor mons compared to these new boys
oh hey a basic trev set
Trevenant @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Harvest
EVs: 208 HP / 252 Atk / 48 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Power-Up Punch
- Poltergeist
- Wood Hammer
so anyway about the changes: the most banworthy imo was gourgeist, why? well yeah the tutor move turned it (along with trev) from a grass type that just happens to have a secondary ghost typing to it finally being able to back up its ghost typing with a move one thats on par in strength of power whip/wood hammer and a quick look a normal types shows we have a near 0 ammount = unresisted coverage, our only relevant normals are dubwool and null which, if they come in do 0 back, one cant even toxic lmao and still are threatened by the grass move... now we may be getting normals from quickdrops that would've helped (especially bouff, but any of them have more options than our current ones) but thats in a week, but hey its something
it had more power than basc and more speed than hitmontop, outspeeding rime is enough these days... moving on maybe because of how long we've been dealing with working around silvs I found them less needing of the ban then of the tutor mons compared to these new boys
oh hey a basic trev set
Trevenant @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Harvest
EVs: 208 HP / 252 Atk / 48 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Power-Up Punch
- Poltergeist
- Wood Hammer
i used trev before poltergeist so i will try to prove why it helps it a bunch, previously you could use the same set but w/ shadow claw, but shadow claw lacked a bit too much in power against a certain common switch in (see below), and a stab neutral wood hammer still did more (horn leech isn't worth it when you have harvest/sitrus) even on a super effective hit which left it lacking in power
previously the most common response to trev was defensive mawile, which could trade enough damage/make you lose sirius that your trev was very weakened after
-1 252+ Atk Trevenant Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 60-72 (19.7 - 23.6%) -- possible 5HKO
-1 252+ Atk Trevenant Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 93-111 (30.5 - 36.5%) -- 57.6% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Trevenant Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 90-106 (29.6 - 34.8%) -- 11.8% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Trevenant Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 141-166 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 59.8% chance to 2HKO
all that increase in damage, for basically an upgrade to the same move with near 0 downsides
previously you could run EQ but that left you at the mercy of gourg, which even in the days before DLC (last week) was not a good idea
another popular response was silvallies (especially poison/bug who no longer exist, and all the ones left are grass neutral/weak, but still the calcs show a power difference)
252+ Atk Trevenant Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Bug: 118-139 (35.6 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Trevenant Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Bug: 184-217 (55.5 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
so what do you do with this now? get it in versus a null or a stunfisk and (or a palp if you run more speed) sub, and then have funbut boy does it suck if you waste a turn clicking poltergeist and they dont have an item clicking moves/boosting for free behind a sub, in theory for trev you could now forgo grass for something else (drain/eq/leech/sucker/toxic/etc) although the pp is still an issue relying on poltergeist to that extent
previously the most common response to trev was defensive mawile, which could trade enough damage/make you lose sirius that your trev was very weakened after
-1 252+ Atk Trevenant Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 60-72 (19.7 - 23.6%) -- possible 5HKO
-1 252+ Atk Trevenant Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 93-111 (30.5 - 36.5%) -- 57.6% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Trevenant Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 90-106 (29.6 - 34.8%) -- 11.8% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Trevenant Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 141-166 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 59.8% chance to 2HKO
all that increase in damage, for basically an upgrade to the same move with near 0 downsides
previously you could run EQ but that left you at the mercy of gourg, which even in the days before DLC (last week) was not a good idea
another popular response was silvallies (especially poison/bug who no longer exist, and all the ones left are grass neutral/weak, but still the calcs show a power difference)
252+ Atk Trevenant Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Bug: 118-139 (35.6 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Trevenant Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Bug: 184-217 (55.5 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
so what do you do with this now? get it in versus a null or a stunfisk and (or a palp if you run more speed) sub, and then have fun
Hi all, I'm doing the Council Minutes this week! This post will outline generally what the meta looks like post Isle of Armor and after our most recent quickbans.
Council HappeningsMeta Discussion:
Council Happenings
Thievul is arguably the most threatening it's ever been: Dark resists in Pawniard, Mawile, and Shiinotic are covered better now by Burning Jealousy; with Thwackey receiving Grassy Glide and Pincurchin gaining Rising Voltage from the DLC, these Pokemon are much more potent now, and so by extension, hyper offensive teams with either Grassy Seed or Electric Seed Thievul as the centerpiece wincon have become more common in turn; next, Thievul lost one of its best checks in Hitmontop with the recent bans on 6/21, leaving it harder to be RKOed once Unburden has been activated; and lastly, Thievul gained Stakeout, which grants it some variability in moveset and just makes it that much more dangerous (MZ posted about Specs Stakeout Thievul a bit above, showing off some of its damage calcs). A (big) factor we discussed on the voting sheet that ultimately led to a dnb verdict however was that setting up while not being chipped and placed in range of priority isn't something Thievul can do consistently. That, and there are still bulky defensive checks out there that can eat any of its attacks at +2; tlenit1 in particular mentioned AV Throh, and I've been messing with SpDef Vullaby and Togetic for this purpose. Council will no doubt be keeping a close eye on Thievul as the meta further develops.
(
) Recently losing Silvally-Bug, -Psychic, and the Gourgeist forms has put a damper on our ability to check Fighting-types, and so offensive Throh, Falinks (both AoA and No Retreat variants), and to a lesser extent, Grapploct have all become harder to manage from a teambuilding standpoint.
Along this line of thought, the Fighting checks you'll be building with have changed drastically thanks to the DLC dropping. Council talked a fair bit about Kadabra and what it brings to the table; one of the main problems we've grappled with in SS PU is that the meta is over-saturated with offensive threats. Sash Kadabra in effect counterbalances that issue by blanket checking many of these Pokemon and forcing trades. We also talked a good deal about Trevenant and how much better it's gotten recently in Gourgeist's absence with the addition of Poltergeist and Grassy Glide. It can run a variety of sets, CB, PuP, OTR, as well as techs like itemless to mess with other Poltergeist Trevenant and Poltergeist Dusknoir, Rock Slide to hit Vullaby and Togetic, Earthquake to hit Mawile, and a few others. And, while Tangela isn't exactly a Fighting resist (and doesn't like eating a Knock Off from Throh), it is hugely bulky and can answer these Fighting-types in a pinch. These three Pokemon were on the most recent voting sheet, but received a dnb verdict. We'll continue to watch them carefully going forward to see if they're too much for the meta or not.- We have but two Silvally left, and now that Hitmontop is gone too, I questioned recently in council chat what the face of entry hazard removal looks like and how building with reliable removal has been affected. I've personally found that, while it's still possible to slot on removal with Mr. Rime, Mr. Mime-G, Flip Turn Wartortle, Natu, Carkol, Vibrava, Silvally-Rock, etc., our ability to fit removal viably on offensive teams became much more limited, and so building more with Heavy-Duty Boots, relying more on Pokemon like Kadabra on offense, and preventing hazards from being set up to begin with with Pokemon like Taunt SR Krokorok is a viable alternative to fill that vacuum left by Hitmontop and Silvally.
- Specs steps down from PU council. Come baaaack
- termi rejoins PU council after 5+ years - welcome back!
- Council will be going back to providing 2-3 lines of reasoning when voting on VR changes and bans in our Google docs sheets going forward. This was implemented before the bans on 6/21 and you can see our reasoning for those bans here. Our general aim is to both be more transparent in our decision making and generate more meta discussion here, in the room, and on Discord.
- PU Open signups will close on Sunday, June 28th at 11:59 PM EDT (GMT-4). Don't forget to sign up if you haven't already!
- PUPL VI Replays thread went up on 6/21. We're also into week 2 of PUPL.
- We're into round 11 (loser's only) of PU Kick-Off.
AllTerrainVen0moth
Banned deucer.
Scarf Carvahna looks like a decent replacement for Basculin now that the aformentioned Basculin is gone.
Carvanha @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Crunch
- Flip Turn
- Super Fang
- Psychic Fangs
This set is meant to be a fast offensive pivot with scarf. Crunch is for the main dark stab, flip turn is well.. you know. Super fang helps break non-ghost walls, and Psychic Fangs is for coverage.
Carvanha @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Crunch
- Flip Turn
- Super Fang
- Psychic Fangs
This set is meant to be a fast offensive pivot with scarf. Crunch is for the main dark stab, flip turn is well.. you know. Super fang helps break non-ghost walls, and Psychic Fangs is for coverage.
Since the "Don't Use That, Use This!" thread isn't up yet, I'll be happy to take this one because I wanted to make a separate post outside of the Thievul one.
Seaking @ Assault Vest OR Life Orb
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 24 HP / 252 Atk / 232 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flip Turn / Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Megahorn
- Drill Run / Waterfall
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 24 HP / 252 Atk / 232 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flip Turn / Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Megahorn
- Drill Run / Waterfall
Seaking is faster, bulkier, and stronger than Carvanha, has much better coverage and access to Knock Off, and also has an Electric immunity. Carvanha may be faster after a Speed Boost, but if you're using it for Flip Turn it's not like you're setting up anyway. But I wanted to make this post also because Flip Turn was such a big buff for this mon. It already did a good job of checking Electrics with Lightning Rod, but now it can really pivot out and give much more momentum to a team. I think right now the best set would be AV pivot just so you can take something like Grass Knot from Raichu a little better and switch out, but I included a Swords Dance set too just in case someone wanted to try it out. Being faster than stuff like Heatmor and Gothitelle also is really cool. I think if you run Flip Turn, you don't necessarily need Waterfall as well and Drill Run helps handle Mareanie, but it has such good coverage it's hard to go wrong and you could make a stance for just about anything.
I won't talk as long about these two, but Dusknoir got a lot better and I feel like a lot of people have realized that. It doesn't have the same secondary typing like Trevenant, but it can still hit decently hard and has good coverage. As for Shedinja, I think the big thing is that Poltergeist isn't a contact move like Shadow Claw, meaning that you can run Heavy Duty Boots and don't have to worry about Rocky Helmet mons.
I'd have more but I don't have much time right now, might come back and edit later.
AllTerrainVen0moth
Banned deucer.
Speaking of water types in PU, lets talk Seadra.
This thing has a lot of stuff going for it, good abilities, decent stats, cool movepool, Flip Turn...
I see two viable sets for the seahorse. Offensive and Defensive.
Defensive:
Seadra @ Leftovers
Ability: Poison Point
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Clear Smog
- Scald
- Toxic
Offensive:
Seadra @ Life Orb
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Agility
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Flash Cannon
kthxbai
This thing has a lot of stuff going for it, good abilities, decent stats, cool movepool, Flip Turn...
I see two viable sets for the seahorse. Offensive and Defensive.
Defensive:
Seadra @ Leftovers
Ability: Poison Point
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Clear Smog
- Scald
- Toxic
Offensive:
Seadra @ Life Orb
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Agility
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Flash Cannon
kthxbai
- Status