Metagame NP: RU Stage -1: Message to Oglemi, Nails, and Honko (VENOMOTH STOLEN FROM US))

[Capitan Bravo]

Use Rhyperior

Dude I rather not be quad weak to Water and Grass. Also give a suggestion not a empty comment (e.g. "Use this Pokemon" or "X mon is better than Y mon")

 

[g]

If you really (really i mean) want to use Regirock this is your best bet:

Regirock @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge
- Drain Punch / Earthquake
- Thunder Wave

Still inferior to Rhyperior (and weaker even if rhyperior is uninvested) this set is a decent Stealth Rock setter and Paralysis spreader. Thunder Wave is the only reason to use it over Rhyperior so it is a must-have.
Even if Rhyperior is quad weak to Water and Grass Regirock can't take those hits anyway and it can do even less back. Be sure to pair it with stuff that likes Para support like CB Druddigon or CB Escavalier i guess so you are better off using Rhyperior.

 

[The Leprechaun]

snip.

Regirock @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Atk
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge/ Rock Slide
- Drain Punch/ Earthquake
- Thunder Wave

I'd actually have to disagree here, a specially defensive set was fairly effective last gen in RU and spdef rock golem actually has some nice niches over rhyperior. First of all, as Capitan Bravo already mentioned, the lack of a 4x weakness to both water and grass is really very big. This allows you to check some of the bigger special threats of the tier which rely on either grass or water coverage. This includes Delphox, Moltres, Heliolisk, Yanmega and a number of others. On top of this, it is already hugely bulky on the physical side. Though it doesn't have quite as much bulk in tanking super effective moves as rhyp has, it can tank neutral hits far better. Obviously Rhyperior is going to be the superior choice for most teams but don't write of rock golem too easily, it definitely has a niche in this meta.

calcs

All the pokes rhyperior can't take on:

252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Regirock: 224-265 (61.5 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Moltres Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Regirock: 138-164 (37.9 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Regirock: 164-195 (45 - 53.5%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Regirock: 180-212 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Regirock: 160-190 (43.9 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Regirock: 195-229 (53.5 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Rotom-C Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Regirock: 264-312 (72.5 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Mega Abomasnow Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Regirock: 198-234 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage and Leftovers recovery

Note that regirock can either KO or severely criple these with thunder wave back, excluding rotom-c.

 

[EonX]

SpDef is definitely the best way to go on Regirock so special attackers can't just take a dump on you. While Rhyperior is usually better, there are a couple of advantages to using Regirock instead. First, and foremost, it lacks a 4x weakness to Water and Grass. This allows Regi to better handle Heliolisk and Moltres. It will also fare a little better against Delphox, but even then, you should only use Regirock against it if you have literally nothing else to handle Delphox at that point. So, it can work over Rhyperior, but it will generally be because you need a safer response to Electric- and Fire-types that use Water- or Grass-type coverage to ruin Rhyperior.

As for what I've been up to working with, I've found quite the interesting core for offense and balance teams:

Zoroark @ Choice Specs
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid
- Dark Pulse / Night Daze
- Flamethrower
- Grass Knot
- U-turn

Emboar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
- Flare Blitz
- Superpower
- Wild Charge
- Earthquake​

This core is really cool for offensive teams and exploits Zoroark's abilities as a special attacking wallbreaker. So, what gives Choice Scarf Emboar the most troubles? Bulky Water- and Rock-types. Hey, guess how you can lure them out super easy and nuke them? Specs Zoroark disguised as Scarf Emboar. They take the same damage from ALL entry hazards, making it nearly impossible for the opponent to discern that it's actually Zoroark instead of Emboar, thus meaning they'll have to respect Emboar's threat level and send out their check or counter to it. Dark Pulse deals with all of Slowking, Jellicent, Cresselia, Reuniclus, and Alomomola. Flamethrower is neat since it can sort of help feign a special Emboar set if that's needed early on and it can weaken down the likes of Bronzong and Registeel to ensure they can't tank out a Flare Blitz later and cripple Emboar. Grass Knot fucks Rhyperior, Seismitoad, and Gastrodon (sort of) to help Emboar spam Flare Blitz later. U-turn builds momentum, and although it gives away the Illusion, it can be useful for a setup sweeper you have on your team that benefits from certain walls coming in (like, say, Virizion with bulky Waters / Grounds)

As for Emboar, everyone knows this set from BW. Flare Blitz and Superpower are good STAB moves to use. Wild Charge beats bulky Waters. Although Zoroark will ideally lure them out and eliminate them, it's still a good idea to carry a move to beat them just in case Zoro can't finish them before it goes down. EQ is generally filler as Emboar has everything it needs in 3 moves and Sucker Punch is kinda pointless due to the Scarf. So, has anyone else tried this core in particular? Or has anyone simply used Specs Zoroark as a lure for other Fighting-types in the tier like Hitmonlee or Cobalion?

 

[Evilfaic]

snip

Just to let you know, there is an RU Cores thread here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ru-cores.3506192/

 

[Peef Rimgar]

I know this is an absolutely miniscule detail, but Molk can you edit the thread name to account for Azelf's move-up and Tornadus And Druddigon's ban?

 

[Holy Dom]

Recently, I've been trying to find a good physical Normal-type that fits my team and nothing seems to be working right. I tried Ambipom, but it's literally outclassed by almost every Normal-type in the tier and is just a manifestation of all of their flaws put into one Pokemon... Cinccino was ridiculously frail, easy to pick off, and couldn't break past certain walls. I tried Kangaskhan and while it was bulky and had nice dual priority in Sucker Punch + Fake Out, I found it a little too weak for my tastes. Then I decided to try out this monster....

Zangoose @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Toxic Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Quick Attack

While it's not as fast as Cinccino nor as bulky as Kangaskhan or as mediocre as Ambipom, its power is fucking phenomenal. Zangoose gained two indirect buffs in XY: an improved Knock Off and an improved Facade. With the combination of Knock Off and a Toxic Orb-boosted Facade, Zangoose can easily OHKO Gligar after Stealth Rock. What's more, is that it can 2HKO freaking max/max defense Alomomola unboosted. Facade is also pretty cool considering if Zangoose gets burned for whatever reason, it isn't automatically dead weight, meaning it can still wallbreak to a certain extent. Close Combat is also extremely powerful, easily 2HKOing 252/0 Rhyperior, Escavalier, and Registeel with no prior damage. I found that Zangoose is a little too frail to be setting up a Swords Dance, so I just decided to go for Quick Attack in order to pick off frailer threats; for instance, it can KO Sharpedo after rocks + a bit of prior damage, which is great considering offensive teams need as many checks as they can for that thing. As for natures, I personally prefer Adamant for the extra power, but Jolly has merit in that so can outspeed +spe base 80s like Gallade, neutral 95s such as Drapion and Yanmega, and potentially speed tie with +spe Moltres or Meloetta. So yeah, this is a really nice hidden gem that I've had fun using.

So, I'm kinda curious, what Pokemon have you guys have been using that might not have been receiving the attention it should?

I ran one a little before Azelf and the others were banned. Once you pick off faster threats, it can easily OHKO, or at least 2HKO, the remnants of teams.

Other than Swellow, Yanmega and Scarf Braviary (and a few Sigilyphs recently), I can't think of any mons that aren't grounded that are common and outspeed Zan (Moltres speed ties). Especially with Tornadus gone. I've recently have been thinking about running a Sticky Web team based around one. With there not being much good hazard control in the tier I think it can work relatively well.

 

[Peef Rimgar]

Oh god Ambipom is gonna be considered in RU like Aipom is considered in LC isn't it.

 

[tennisace]

Oh god Ambipom is gonna be considered in RU like Aipom is considered in LC isn't it.

If you mean "horrendously overrated" then yeah probably. Cincinno accomplishes the same thing basically, has better coverage, and is cuter.

 

[Mijzelffan]

Oh god Ambipom is gonna be considered in RU like Aipom is considered in LC isn't it.

It's like #7 on the unweighted RU stats for last month. edit: #13 with 7% of usage, sorry

 

[Peef Rimgar]

It's like #7 on the unweighted RU stats for last month.

Exactly. Fucking Aipom is trash and people still use it enough to put it in LC OU. Just like Ambipom is trash and people use it.

 

[Dustflier]

So in light of the confirmation of Alpha Sapphire and Omega Ruby, I've been trying to make Sceptile work. Currently I've been mucking around with a funky Watmel Berry Natural Gift + Swords Dance set, but it hasn't been that good in practice. Is his Sub + 3 attacks set from last gen still his best, or has a different one taken the spotlight?

 

[Yellow Cheese]

So in light of the confirmation of Alpha Sapphire and Omega Ruby, I've been trying to make Sceptile work. Currently I've been mucking around with a funky Watmel Berry Natural Gift + Swords Dance set, but it hasn't been that good in practice. Is his Sub + 3 attacks set from last gen still his best, or has a different one taken the spotlight?

This gen kinda pooped on sceptile :/

Sceptile lost something big with the HP power drop and that makes Dragon pulse the better option on the Sub +3 set IMO (After SR it has a fairly high chance to 2HKO AV Druddigon). As HP rock cannot really hit anything besides Burd and Typhlosion, as even Mag avoids the 2HKO. I also feel that the SD set is forced to run Crunch just to hit Bronzong (which sucks). No flying gem to help out with Acro+Unburden sucks aswell.

The sub + 3 atk is probably the best set to run still, but it was nerfed alot.

 

[Golemman]

Other than Swellow, Yanmega and Scarf Braviary (and a few Sigilyphs recently), I can't think of any mons that aren't grounded that are common and outspeed Zan (Moltres speed ties). Especially with Tornadus gone. I've recently have been thinking about running a Sticky Web team based around one. With there not being much good hazard control in the tier I think it can work relatively well.

This just gave me an idea: I know you might be skeptical at first but give it some thought: Sticky Web+Gravity. Now, everything gets speed reduction from sticky web! This strategy, unlike trick room, allows medium-speed threats (60's-90's or something) the ability to still hit slow mons first, while of course, hitting faster ones first also. For example, you set trick room for your Emboar, and bam the opponent sends out a weakened rhyperior, who can now outspeed you and kill with EQ before you can finish it off with a hammer arm or whatever. With sticky web+gravity, medium-paced, wallbreaking pokemon can both be faster than slow mons and fast mons simultaneously. Trick room lets you down in the former, and plain sticky web can let you down against flying/levitators. Also, as an added bonus, gravity puts a pseudo-NoGuard on the field, allowing your Tyrantrum to not miss a head smash or Mag to miss a Fireblast/Focus Blast. Gravity setters are also basically the same as trick room setters, giving a decent variety and solid bulk to setup a few times.

 

[EonX]

So in light of the confirmation of Alpha Sapphire and Omega Ruby, I've been trying to make Sceptile work. Currently I've been mucking around with a funky Watmel Berry Natural Gift + Swords Dance set, but it hasn't been that good in practice. Is his Sub + 3 attacks set from last gen still his best, or has a different one taken the spotlight?

Beyond the fact Sceptile has to get a Mega to balance out Blaziken's Mega with the new games, there are a couple of ways to go about using Sceptile. Physical sets are largely outclassed by Virizion imo as she has much higher special bulk to tank out hits as she sets up. While Virizion is a little slower than Sceptile, the lack of Acro+Unburden really kills such a set. Sub + 3 Attacks is probably the way to go as it can do a pretty decent job at cleaning late-game. Another way to go would be to use it as more of a wallbreaker by replacing Sub with Leaf Storm, thus allowing Sceptile to dent some things early on and still attempt a late-game sweep with Giga Drain, Focus Blast, and Dragon Pulse late-game should it run Life Orb. It could also run Choice Specs to amp up the power more, but it doesn't really have a safe move to lock into. Yellow Cheese really said it best; the generation shift just wasn't kind to Sceptile at all. HP nerf, introduction of Assault Vest, denial of Flying Gem, and introduction of really bulky Steels like Registeel and Bronzong to RU really hurt Sceptile.
On the plus side, it should get a lot better in November unless Game Freak just wants Blaziken to be unbalanced as hell in OR and AS.

 

[midend]

Raikou got you down? Tornadus tearing you to shreds? After years hours of experimentation, I've found one of the best Pokemon for stopping those 2 threats, will also always finding a way to get momentum for you as well.
I present: Eelektross.

Eelektross @ Assault Vest
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off / Super Fang
- U-turn
- Superpower / Super Fang
- Thunder Punch

Eelektross has a base attack of 115 (the same as Tornadus, for comparisons sake), while also having 85/80/80 defenses, with its special defense being buffed up even more by assault vest. It can come in on any move that Raikou has, and beat at it with Knock Off / Superpower with almost no problem.

Thunder Punch > Wild Charge is because recoil is really really bad on something with no recovery. and Tbolt is weak unless you go mixed.

Another great part about Eelektross is that its very possible to run a special set or mixed set, with almost no drawbacks. I prefer the physical set cause it functions better against the top threats, but a set of:

Eelektross @ Assault Vest
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SDef
Modest Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Flamethrower
- Giga Drain

sounds very viable to me as well. This is a big reason why I think Eelektross is so great, its sttacking stats and movepool are so good, its easy to mix and match to get the exact moves you need, without losing any of your precious natural bulk in the process.

Eelers works really well with Wish Support, so things like Wigglytuff, Aromatisse, and probably Alomomola, and anything thats really bulky can be a great boon to Eelektross. Haven't tested anythnig other than Wiggly yet :)
Eel is also great for getting in your own sweeper, with its really slow U-turn you can get in something like Zangoose, Hitmonlee, Chatot. Anything really frail but really strong and fast.

Hide

The special av set looks identical to the gen5 anti-rhyperior/quag/pert zapdos set wow, no wonder it seems so viable! With zappy locked up there i finally can use something with a near identical role with recovery!

 

[Durant]

If you mean "horrendously overrated" then yeah probably. Cincinno accomplishes the same thing basically, has better coverage, and is cuter.

At least Ambipom has Pickup for Leftovers.... Really why are people using Ambipom it should be in NU already.

 

[Jaguar360]

So in light of the confirmation of Alpha Sapphire and Omega Ruby, I've been trying to make Sceptile work. Currently I've been mucking around with a funky Watmel Berry Natural Gift + Swords Dance set, but it hasn't been that good in practice. Is his Sub + 3 attacks set from last gen still his best, or has a different one taken the spotlight?

I've used this set on Sceptile and it does its job pretty well:
Sceptile @ White Herb
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naughty/Naive Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake/Crunch
- Acrobatics
Unlike most Unburden sets, this set is easy to activate and not dead weight without the speed boost. Leaf Storm activates Unburden and the Acrobatics boost and can be used at least twice at full power. Swords Dance boosts Sceptile's average 85 base attack to sweeping level and Earthquake and Acrobatics provide amazing coverage together, leaving only Bronzong to resist both and Leaf Storm. Crunch is there to get Bronzong, but it is generally better to have Quake.

 

[breh]

At least Ambipom has Pickup for Leftovers.... Really why are people using Ambipom it should be in NU already.

I'm not going to lie; Ambipom is actually pretty good. A lot of my teams really fear it and people seem to shit on it for no reason. Yes, it's definitely a scrub's favorite, but so are Charizard and Gengar in the higher tiers, yet their abilities are pretty hard to deny. Ambipom is actually really useful for its Fake Out, which actually does a pretty goddamn good chunk of damage to a lot of things. Obviously it's not getting past Rhyperior or Cofagrigus without great play (even with Seed Bomb / Knock Off they are pretty much impenetrable for Ambi, though you can run LO Naiive Grass Knot for perior and perior only if you want :P), but it decimates a lot of frail pokemon and it's one of the fastest things in the metagame right now. Double Hit is admittedly weaker than, say, Cinccino Tail Slap, but it still hits hard enough as its STAB move. Fake Out is what sets it apart and Fake Out is what should be on every set.

 

[Durant]

I'm not going to lie; Ambipom is actually pretty good. A lot of my teams really fear it and people seem to shit on it for no reason. Yes, it's definitely a scrub's favorite, but so are Charizard and Gengar in the higher tiers, yet their abilities are pretty hard to deny. Ambipom is actually really useful for its Fake Out, which actually does a pretty goddamn good chunk of damage to a lot of things. Obviously it's not getting past Rhyperior or Cofagrigus without great play (even with Seed Bomb / Knock Off they are pretty much impenetrable for Ambi, though you can run LO Naiive Grass Knot for perior and perior only if you want :P), but it decimates a lot of frail pokemon and it's one of the fastest things in the metagame right now. Double Hit is admittedly weaker than, say, Cinccino Tail Slap, but it still hits hard enough as its STAB move. Fake Out is what sets it apart and Fake Out is what should be on every set.

While Ambipom has it's usage there is a reason why I don't like it. Usually every good RU team has a counter to it without even trying. Wheter it is Rhyperior, Cofagrigus, Cobalion, Aromatisse or anything else. All of these Pokemon are common and not too difficult to fit in your team. Ambipom can get past Rhyperior, Cofagrigus and Cobalion but it needs alot of prediction to work. While it Fake Out hits hard it is also one of the most, if not the most predictable move in the game. Usually people know exectly when a Fake Out is coming and then they can switch into well anything that can take it. Yes Fake Out is useful for revenge killing Pokemon but when Ambipom is not revenge killing it is way too predictable. Also don't compare Ambipom to cool shit like Charizard and Gengar.

 

[Kevun]

I'm not going to lie; Ambipom is actually pretty good. A lot of my teams really fear it and people seem to shit on it for no reason. Yes, it's definitely a scrub's favorite, but so are Charizard and Gengar in the higher tiers, yet their abilities are pretty hard to deny. Ambipom is actually really useful for its Fake Out, which actually does a pretty goddamn good chunk of damage to a lot of things. Obviously it's not getting past Rhyperior or Cofagrigus without great play (even with Seed Bomb / Knock Off they are pretty much impenetrable for Ambi, though you can run LO Naiive Grass Knot for perior and perior only if you want :P), but it decimates a lot of frail pokemon and it's one of the fastest things in the metagame right now. Double Hit is admittedly weaker than, say, Cinccino Tail Slap, but it still hits hard enough as its STAB move. Fake Out is what sets it apart and Fake Out is what should be on every set.

While Ambipom has it's usage there is a reason why I don't like it. Usually every good RU team has a counter to it without even trying. Wheter it is Rhyperior, Cofagrigus, Cobalion, Aromatisse or anything else. All of these Pokemon are common and not too difficult to fit in your team. Ambipom can get past Rhyperior, Cofagrigus and Cobalion but it needs alot of prediction to work. While it Fake Out hits hard it is also one of the most, if not the most predictable move in the game. Usually people know exectly when a Fake Out is coming and then they can switch into well anything that can take it. Yes Fake Out is useful for revenge killing Pokemon but when Ambipom is not revenge killing it is way too predictable. Also don't compare Ambipom to cool shit like Charizard and Gengar.

Ambipom is definitely not as bad as its reputation makes it out to be, but it obviously isn't a top tier threat. I think the main reason Ambipom has such a shitty reputation right now is because of noobs using Ambipom as a lead or using Fake Out + Last Resort. People are just simply using it wrong - Ambipom is NOT meant to be a lead, those days are long behind it. Instead, Ambipom functions as a great hit-and-run attacker. STAB Technician Fake Out is nothing to scoff at, and picks of many weakened threats. Plus, due to Ambipom's blistering speed, it can threaten many slower threats. Sure, it can't take a hit for its life, but that's why it's not a top tier threat; every pokemon has its weaknesses. Also, because it is so easy to predict Fake Out, it is also *extremely* easy to predict switch-ins. It's not like your obligated to use Fake Out, and any skilled player can easily predict a switch in to Rhyperior or Cobalion, which get dented by Low Kick / Seed Bomb. Like any pokemon, Ambipom is best played to its strengths, and if you do that, I assure you, it won't disappoint. Just don't use shit like Last Resort.

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

Well, honestly I kind of misjudged both Golbat and Ambipom. From what the tier looks like now the only things that really SHOULD go NU are Claydol and Hitmonchan. Ambipom is something I don't really use, but I understand it's use on some teams. (Though noobs have ruined Ambipom for me)

 

[MikeDawg]

I've found zoroark to be one of the best pokemon in the tier.

It can go both physical and special, as well as anywhere in between.

It's movepool is crazy great. Grass knot (rhyperior), flamethrower (excavalier), night daze/sucker punch/knock off (everything), and even u-turn.

It can sport a band, specs, life orb, sash, or even assault vest (dont pls)

Its unpredictability is only compounded by it's incredible ability that people are great at misusing: illusion

People seem to want to take the illusiok bluff way too far by attempting to match up movesets/etc.

In reality, zoroark only needs a single turn of bluffing, and that is the turn that it switches in. After that, night daze to your heart's content because the bluff was already made and you're still going to cripple that rhyerior/slowking/etc.

That earlier post suggesting scarf emboar+specs zoro works very well. Any combo of special+physical works, honestly.

I havent experimented much with setup zoro, but i feel as if using it as a fast wallbreaker is more productive






Thoughts on ambi/all frail normals:
The issue is a lack of defensive synergy. RU is so heavily oriented toward bulky offense, and resists play an incredible role. Frail normal types have none of that. Thus, they are relegated to the revenge killer role, and you have one less teammate to soak up hits.

They can be used though. Slow u-turners are great for this. Hyper offense teams can also make decent use

 

[Evilfaic]

It's movepool is crazy great. Grass knot (rhyperior), flamethrower (excadrill), night daze/sucker punch/knock off (everything), and even u-turn.

When's the last time you saw Excadrill in RU?

 

[Aragorn the King]

When's the last time you saw Excadrill in RU?

He means Escavalier, I'm guessing :P