Metagame np: SS DOU Stage 5: One More Time | Marshadow, Shadow Tag Quickbanned

[GRAND EMPRESS]

Most of the posts with opinions the state of the meta pre the first (and also second) DLC quickbans were that Shadow Tag was potentially problematic. And that was when Shadow Tag wasn't even on the initial voting list. Indeed there were multiple posts stating that Shadow Tag and Jirachi had a large inflluence of whether other things were broken or not.

Given the large influence of ST, I feel that a quickban was warranted.

At the same time, I do feel a suspect test is warranted. Not because the quickban was a bad move, but to have better assessment of what it's like without other potentially broken influencers like Marshadow (that can strongly shape the metagame alone) for something that has been allowed in DOU since forever. It seems premature to definitely assume it's broken on the basis of a metagame that was 1 week old with these broken influencers without formal testing when it has, again, being allowed since DOU's creation. There was talk of it being banworthy in the Isle of Armor, but this was never tested, and I still feel that a permaban would be premature in view of this.

It also feels like a test to do earlier than later, since the outcome could potentially greatly shape the outcome of other future suspect tests.



This also applied to pre Crown Tundra 8th gen. I do also feel it's somewhat difficult to make discussions like these changes occurred in 8th DLC since we're still adptating. The Volt/Turn option also doesn't convince me since Volt/Turn are still good moves - this isn't greatly making the team worse because of Shadow Tag. Regarding the slower Volt/turn users, I could argue that the power level of this metagame is decreased from 7th gen due to the loss of Z-moves and terrain nerf. This makes it harder for Goth's partner to have the power to grab quick KOs wth ST support or provide more offensive pressure to make up for Goth's lack of offensive pressure.

Personally at this point, I feel like after things settle a bit more, maybe about 2 weeks to a month or so, we could test out some things that got quickbanned and see how they function without Goth being around. Because personally I feel like both Goth and the previously banned Rachi (less of an argument) kinda allowed for way more bullshit than these mons would typically bring forth on their own imo
Just a thought

 

[variationonatheme]

So it has been more than a month since the last posts in this thread. I've turned some attention to Gen 8 DOU, and have tried to get into it, though I still don't find it to be as balanced and enjoyable as Gen 7.

To get to the point, I want to at least lay out the case (which I've seen made in the Doubles chat room on occasion) that Regieleki should be banned in DOU. I understand that it's not the best mon ever and isn't something that makes every team better. It's not tier 1 or close to it now (although it definitely sees significant use on the ladder and can be seen in high ladder too). The issue is that it violates longstanding informal rules in the system and makes the meta worse. Typically, very fast mons are extremely frail and often pretty weak. Nonetheless, even they can be worked around with speed control (most notably tailwind and weather). Deoxys Attack gets 150 speed, but basically non-existent 50/20/20 bulk. Regieleki's speed of 200 is ridiculous (previously, the upper bounds of speed in usable mons were around 130 for typical mon and in the low 140s for Zeraorara to 150 for Deoxys A and 151 for Pheremosa). Regieleki's bulk, while terrible at 80/50/50 is basically twice as good as Deoxys A's with only one weakness. While its movepool is limited, with max speed and specs it can outspeed a standard modest Kingdra in rain and 0-HKO it with a Thunderbolt. It can pick off a lot of neutral targets without any boost. However, with electric terrain, it destroys almost everything that is non-immune/resistant with Rising Voltage. If you wanted to carry Tapu Koko as your terrain (antidote to sleep, priority grassy glide and expanding force spam), you've created a problem if Regieleki shows up on the other side and you don't have proper resists. Of course you can build around Regieleki if you put your mind to it, but why should you have to take that specific peripheral mon into account every time? Rain has enough headwinds this gen as it is. It particularly hates Grassy Glide, but that's on an important mon (Rillaboom) and many others can carry it as well. I get that it's a new mechanic, that along with Expanding Force, is probably not going anywhere, but there's no need to keep Regieleki in DOU, as it causes more problems than it's worth. It actually gets some use in DUbers just because of its incredible speed, which is another hint that that's where it belongs. Ditching Regieleki would allow for more flexibility in building viable teams (including, e.g., use of tailwind and middling speed mons like Volcanion) which adds more to the meta than would be lost with the departure of this one weird, rule-violating mon.

Re: other mons to ban, I'd be in favor of DUbering Diancie too, as body press, and the lack of the same threats it saw in SM (including rain) make it a much better mon and make setting up and protecting it a lot easier, pushing undue emphasis on teams to carry steel.

My 2 cents.

 

[KyleCole]

Hey bro sadly regieleki just not good enough to warrant a ban :( there are several super viable answers to it, and limiting rain or other slow mons is not reason enough to ban
Good luck out there!

 

[zoe]

Regieleki's main issue is that is only has Electric-type coverage. Yes, it gets extreme speed and explosion, but those 100 offenses aren't taking anyone's breath away. The sole reason it's electric moves are so strong is because of transistor, which is effectively an adaptability clone for Regieleki. That means that it's moves that do damage have a immunity attached to them, ground types.

The current DOU metagame is in no way short of lacking excellent ground types, Zygarde being the chief among them. Thousand Arrows hit regi no matter what, as it hits regi even with magnet rise, or air balloon. Lando-T is also a great intimidator and fits on tons of teams, so regi is naturally checked in a good number of teams, as long as they aren't careless. These two in particular are excellent mons regardless of Regieleki existing or not, and not knocked over by a light wind.

Another issue? Ground types are not exactly hard to fit on a team. They bring both good offensive and defensive qualities to a team, making a team better just by having one (most of the time). Making another way how eleki is naturally handled on most teams.

Rain has enough headwinds this gen as it is.

Not every strategy has to be viable. That's just how this game is sometimes, some strategies are beaten down naturally. Such as Weather Wars sun teams.

Ditching Regieleki would allow for more flexibility in building viable teams (including, e.g., use of tailwind and middling speed mons like Volcanion) which adds more to the meta than would be lost with the departure of this one weird, rule-violating mon.

Regieleki is not limiting these mons/moves at all. Volcanion is great regardless, and Tailwind is a prominent method of speed control, and insanely popular as well.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

 

[DaWoblefet]

The sole reason it's electric moves are so strong is because of transistor, which is effectively an adaptability clone for Regieleki.

I agree with the fundamental point of this post (that Regieleki has pronounced weaknesses that make it not ban-worthy), but I want to mention that Transistor is not like Adaptability. Adaptability turns the STAB multiplier from 1.5x to 2x. Transistor applies a 1.5x multiplier to Attack or Sp. Atk when the user is using an Electric-type attack. It's much more comparable to Steelworker. The difference with Transistor and Regieleki is you get both the 1.5x Atk / Sp. Atk boost AND the STAB boost on Electric-type moves. You could naively compare it as 1.5x*1.5x (Transistor and STAB) > 2x (Adaptability).

 

[zoe]

I agree with the fundamental point of this post (that Regieleki has pronounced weaknesses that don't make it ban-worthy), but I want to mention that Transistor is not like Adaptability. Adaptability turns the STAB multiplier from 1.5x to 2x. Transistor applies a 1.5x multiplier to Attack or Sp. Atk when the user is using an Electric-type attack. It's much more comparable to Steelworker. The difference with Transistor and Regieleki is you get both the 1.5x Atk / Sp. Atk boost AND the STAB boost on Electric-type moves. You could naively compare it as 1.5x*1.5x (Transistor and STAB) > 2x (Adaptability).

Oh, so that's how it works, I thought Transistor boosted power, not the attacking stats.
That's my bad, I wasn't aware of that.

 

[RelicanthPrimal]

So it has been more than a month since the last posts in this thread. I've turned some attention to Gen 8 DOU, and have tried to get into it, though I still don't find it to be as balanced and enjoyable as Gen 7.

To get to the point, I want to at least lay out the case (which I've seen made in the Doubles chat room on occasion) that Regieleki should be banned in DOU. I understand that it's not the best mon ever and isn't something that makes every team better. It's not tier 1 or close to it now (although it definitely sees significant use on the ladder and can be seen in high ladder too). The issue is that it violates longstanding informal rules in the system and makes the meta worse. Typically, very fast mons are extremely frail and often pretty weak. Nonetheless, even they can be worked around with speed control (most notably tailwind and weather). Deoxys Attack gets 150 speed, but basically non-existent 50/20/20 bulk. Regieleki's speed of 200 is ridiculous (previously, the upper bounds of speed in usable mons were around 130 for typical mon and in the low 140s for Zeraorara to 150 for Deoxys A and 151 for Pheremosa). Regieleki's bulk, while terrible at 80/50/50 is basically twice as good as Deoxys A's with only one weakness. While its movepool is limited, with max speed and specs it can outspeed a standard modest Kingdra in rain and 0-HKO it with a Thunderbolt. It can pick off a lot of neutral targets without any boost. However, with electric terrain, it destroys almost everything that is non-immune/resistant with Rising Voltage. If you wanted to carry Tapu Koko as your terrain (antidote to sleep, priority grassy glide and expanding force spam), you've created a problem if Regieleki shows up on the other side and you don't have proper resists. Of course you can build around Regieleki if you put your mind to it, but why should you have to take that specific peripheral mon into account every time? Rain has enough headwinds this gen as it is. It particularly hates Grassy Glide, but that's on an important mon (Rillaboom) and many others can carry it as well. I get that it's a new mechanic, that along with Expanding Force, is probably not going anywhere, but there's no need to keep Regieleki in DOU, as it causes more problems than it's worth. It actually gets some use in DUbers just because of its incredible speed, which is another hint that that's where it belongs. Ditching Regieleki would allow for more flexibility in building viable teams (including, e.g., use of tailwind and middling speed mons like Volcanion) which adds more to the meta than would be lost with the departure of this one weird, rule-violating mon.

Re: other mons to ban, I'd be in favor of DUbering Diancie too, as body press, and the lack of the same threats it saw in SM (including rain) make it a much better mon and make setting up and protecting it a lot easier, pushing undue emphasis on teams to carry steel.

My 2 cents.

regielki is actually pretty weak after goth stag ban stopped it from sniping stuff with rising voltage and getting value volt switches

 

[zoe]

I don't know where else to put this, so might as well put it here.

Ever sense this abomination was freed upon Crown Tundra's release after being previously banned, it's been one of DOU's top threats, maybe even the most dangerous mon in the format. That's right, I'm talking about the Mike Tyson of dragons, the harbinger of hell, and the one who likely has the coolest Black and White sprite.

The Demon of Truth, Ice, and Thunder

Kyurem-Black
​

DISCLAIMER: I'm still not sure whether Kyurem-Black is broken or not, this is more so a discussion starter than an actual argument. Also keep in mind that I'm new so some of my points may be a bit off or just plain stupid. Please keep that in mind before you start calling me names.

Let's get the basics out of the way.
Kyurem has a monstrous 170 attack stat, allowing it to dish out huge damage with fusion bolt and icicle spear, even when it has no investment, 120 special attack is also excellent, albeit requires more investment than it's attack stat if you want it to hit as hard. It's still great though, and allows it to run a mixed set with great effect.

Kyurem packs some of the best bulk in the tier with 125 HP, 100 Defense, and 90 Special Defense allowing it to take some astounding hits and fire back in return, this also allows it to potentially stick around all game, if played well.

It has 95 base speed. Not the best, but it works. That's all I have to say about it.

Kyurem also has a nice movepool with the previously mentioned icicle spear and fusion bolt. It also gets good coverage in Earth Power, support options in icy wind, roost, etc.

Time to get to the Pros and Cons

Pro:
Kyurem-Black may have Terravolt as a ability now, but pressure never left it. When Kyurem is played well, the sheer amount of pressure proves it. Few switches are safe. Let's take the Assault Vest set with Ice Beam, Earth Power, Icy wind, and Fusion Bolt as a example. Nothing really wants to switch in to it. Kartana doesn't want to suffer the speed drop from Icy Wind which leaves it vulnerable to Ice beam, Max Defense+Max HP Bold Tapu Fini has a 10.9% chance to get 2HKO'd by uninvested Fusion Bolt, and I'm not even sure Fini runs that much Defense. Even Diancie isn't truly safe, as Terravolt Earth Power can drop it's Special Defense. Not to mention that all of the aforementioned mons can't threaten it out effectively (besides Diancie maybe). One of the few moves that can OHKO max HP Kyurem is Choice Banded Urshifu's Close combat. But Urshifu doesn't want to take a Icy Wind speed drop, because then Fusion Bolt puts it in a dangerous spot. God forbid Kyurem's best partner, Fini is on the field.

Con:
It's Ice typing makes it really hard to get into that position in the first place thanks to it's many weaknesses to common attacks, and stealth rock doesn't help. If we're going with the same AV set, then all chip is there to stay, unless there's cleric support (Fini heal pulse).

Pro:
It isn't beholden to one set. It can use Dragon Dance to make it extremely dangerous once it gets one, as intimidate is less common and Landorus won't dream of switching in. It can even use a misty seed for a one time assault vest which allows it to greatly increase it's longevity with roost.

Con:
These sets all have their issues. Dragon Dance struggles to handle incineroar, constantly chips itself with the life orb, and cuts into it's bulk if it wants to effectively run it. Misty is a one time thing, and only useful for roost and the weakened knock off. Roost is a move that 1. takes up a valuable move slot 2. allows one member of the opposing team to come in on it, like Urshifu.

A few closing remarks: Firstly, I feel like I'm underselling Kyurem, but this was getting too long.
Secondly, I would like you to remember, once again, that I am pretty new and these points may leave something out or be worthless.
Thirdly: I'm not asking for a Kyurem suspect test, I feel like I'm far too inexperienced to make those sort of calls.
Finally: Call me out on what I'm wrong about. Please.

 

[zoe]

Yep, I'm back. You may know me from the post directly above this one (or my ferrothorn nomination pls forget that). Am I here to complain about Tapu Fini now? Not yet, anyway (I actually think it's balanced btw). I'm instead here to talk about Porygon2

What? Did you expect a flashy reveal?

I’m just going to start talking now

Credit to emma for doing like 80% of this, I basically just typed it out while she gave me the topic, sources, and general outline, which I consider to make up most of something like this. Oh and she proofread it.

Metal Gear Toise 4: Horse of the Patriots


Spectrier was initially ignored for the first good portion of Crown Tundra because the brokens were released, then it was just forgotten. That was until round 16 of invitationals, when Memoric brought it along with Blastoise against Demantoid. Blastoise was already known as a good redirector, but spectrier took it to a whole other level. During the rest of round 16, people were considering if Spectrier could actually be broken. Spectrier exploited a hole in the metagame of a lack of a good ghost resist, and Blastoise prevented any stray knock off from ruining it’s day. How could the meta handle it?

Porygon2 3: Horse Eater
"Toise?"

Porygon2 wasn’t used in gen 8. It had one usage in IoA, in snake, that was it. The duck historically wasn’t a DOU powerhouse, so nobody really used it. This was until Spectoise made it’s grand entrance and shook up the metagame. While p2 wasn't used that week. It was used the following week by Qwello Lee against umbry. They used it because, according to Qwello,

And thus, porygon2 shot into the limelight overnight.

Porygon2 Rising: Revengeance
"Nice horse"-Senator Porygon2

Saying p2 was in the limelight is probably an understatement because porygon2 semiroom became the best archetype in the metagame. Qwello's initial team consisted of Porygon2, Rillaboom, Volcanion, Dragapult, Diancie, and Landorus-Therion (memo may have built this exact team when they built spectoise) (update:they did)

P2's success wasn't relegated to only invitationals though, while it wasn't used in week 1, as that was around the time of p2's daybut (how tf do you spell that word), it was used 3 times in week 2 alone, with umbry and Qwello using the old combination of p2, Rilla, pult, Diancie, and lando, and Mishimono using Genesect over pult.
Back in invitationals, p2 was used in every game after top 8, bar one. This time around it was a bit more varied with its partners with Dragalage and Lurantis showing up to take advantage of its TR. JRL also used it on a fullroom team. In finals, p2 was used in both games, once by shrop, once by Qwello (technically p2 never saw use in game 2, but benchwarmers still receive championship rings, so I'm counting it).



Porygon2 V: Making the Phantom Feel Pain
woah-hooooooo

After invitationals ended, p2 was still good. Really good in fact. Didn't take a hit at all, p2 semiroom was still the best, people just didn't use it, and with DPL now underway, we may see even more variations on the p2 semiroom archetype within the dual SS slots. Or maybe something will rise to stop p2's streak of success. Who knows?


Here's a bunch of "jokes" that I cut because I couldn't really fit them in.

"Who knows why Qwello used porygon2? Maybe he likes ducks."
"Porygon successfully staved of a spectrier sweep even though it really wouldn't have been a sweep I just wanted to use alliteration ok"
"In conclusion, free Kyurem-White"
"When porygon2 was re-introduced to the metagame, calls for spectoise to be banned died quicker than Jirachi seeing actual usage did."
"If memo invented porygon2 then I invented dragon dance pult."
"Porygon2 without its eviolite is weaker than fullroom. Just barely though."
"Porygon2 made spectrier die its final death."
"What do Spectrier winning a 1v1 versus p2, spontaneous combustion, and me getting pixels under my name have in common?" (Try to guess the answer)

 

[zee]

In the main DPL chat today there was a discussion about how essential Rillaboom is to common team archetypes in the metagame. Rillaboom was number 1 in usage week 1 with a staggering 11 uses, the sole team that chose to forego it was Shadowmonstr7's Zygarde team. While this week it's already been confirmed that Rilla's usage will go down thanks to my game vs Qwello, it's still likely going to be at or near the top of the usage stats for the end of the week. Paraplegic held firm on his position that Rillaboom is one of the most essential Pokemon for multiple team archetypes while others disagreed, citing that multiple archetypes can function just fine without it. The discussion interested me a lot, though I felt like I needed a bit of time to sit on my thoughts before I could participate. I decided the best way to do this was to explore the different archetypes in the metagame in relation to their DPL week 1 performances and see how they can appreciate Rillaboom's presence.
Tier 1 Archetypes
For lack of a better term, Tier 1 archetypes are the teamstyles that I think are at the forefront of the metagame currently. I'm not necessarily implying that these are the definitive best compositions, but they're certainly dominating usage in DPL.

Archetype A - Porygon2/Diancie Semi-Trick Room
7 week 1 uses
Common Pokemon:


It's no secret that semiroom is the team to beat right now. Porygon2 and Diancie both offer the ability to provide reliable speed control and provide key walls to threatening Pokemon like Spectrier or Volcarona, respectively. But of course, the purpose of the post is to analyze what Rillaboom can do for these teams. The obvious answer is that with thanks to Fake Out and U-turn it can safely grant Trick Room while also being a safe pivot to a partner such as Volcanion. Its offensive capabilities are also extremely useful for checking Tapu Fini, which semiroom can struggle to break through given opportunities to Calm Mind safely. Priority is clutch for a sort of disaster control when you find yourself on the losing end of the speed control war as well. Grassy Terrain recovery is a huge boon for Volcanion and the Trick Room setters as well. But, it's worth noting that Rillaboom's presence gives a slot hard walled by The Titan Referred To As Kyurem-Black. Additionally, stacking pivots like Rillaboom and Blastoise on top of the Trick Room setter takes a notable cut out of the offensive pressure making it difficult to KO things like Porygon2 efficiently. Rillaboom also doesn't run Protect super frequently on these types of teams; which, in conjunction with Pokemon like Landorus-T and Porygon2 leaves the team fairly open at most times. I do wanna note that I think a lot of times these teams opt for the Boomer since the offensive Fire-type in either Heatran or Volcanion is really important while Incineroar and Blastoise just can't keep up that pressure.

Conclusion: Rillaboom is a huge help for semi-room's ability to set Trick Room and offensively check some of its threats. However, its overall offensive output is often lacking which can make it harder to remove the tier's bulkier options, and its hesitancy to run Protect often makes it fairly predictable and vulnerable.

Archetype B - Setup Offense
5 week 1 uses
Common Pokemon:


Setup offense is a bit more streamlined of an archetype, and some of these teams are actually just subsets of the previously mentioned semiroom teams. Anyway, it's pretty obvious to see what Rillaboom does here, clicking Fake Out and U-turn and creating safe setups and generating momentum for the big guys. The main discussion point I want to bring up here instead is that I think the Double Fake + Out Redirection styles of setup, especially Zygarde in particular, struggle with Cube since it can just sit there and spam Icy Wind pretty safely (quick note: that isn't exactly what happens in this replay, but that's mostly because the pressure of Icy Wind didn't allow Para to take this line). That being said I think it's just a part of the pill you swallow when electing to bring setup. Boosting Zyg/Volc/Pult are all incredibly scary and the bottom line is that Rillaboom is one of the best ways to enable these guys.

Archetype C - Tailwind Offense
2 week 1 uses
Common Pokemon:

my team and Shadowmonstr's teams were pretty different, so I do recommend you watch the replays

Tailwind is kinda just like setup offense except we're trying to cut corners. However, I actually think in a lot of cases Rillaboom on Tailwind offense is a bit of a pace mismatch at best and an all out burden at worst. When using Tailwind, you really want to get your big threats (CB Zyg, Eruptran) in and just click all the buttons. But as we touched on earlier, Rillaboom's offensive presence isn't really the greatest across the board, allowing for counterplay such as opposing Fake Out/Redirection or Trick Room hit the field without much material gained. It's not like you need Tailwind to spam Grassy Glide all over the board anyways. But Rilla's problems don't stop here for Tailwind: it also has the issue of being a far worse pivot seeing as its forced to faster U-turn way more often, as well as the aforementioned issue of inviting in Cube's Icy Wind or even matched Tailwind from other Mew or Zapdos. Shadowmonstr's team definitely stands out as the sole week 1 team without Rillaboom, instead opting for Tsareena, a Pokemon who's quite notable for its ability being pretty dedicated Rillaboom counterplay, which I think is just pretty interesting to note.

I feel like this debate can go on for a lot deeper, but my honest response to the argument is what has been a meme since the dawn of competitive mons: it depends on the team, really. Rilla's strengths are a huge part of what make semiroom so threatening right now, and I also think that setup oriented teams would be in a far worse place if they all had to rely on Toise + Incin all the time for the double Fake Out core. But I think on the more aggressive Tailwind stuff it's really out of place and probably shouldn't be used on it without great reasoning. Of course DOU has way more than 3 teams, but I don't think its super worth to go into the more fringe stuff like Rain / Fullroom / Clanger etc. Honestly I was just looking for an excuse to do some analysis on the week 1 SS stuff and I'm thankful that this discussion allowed me to do so.

 

[Platinum God n1n1]

I think we should suspect Goth because we have played with it for 3.5 gens and while it was good it was never voted ban by suspect.
If anything it seems like Crown Tundra should make it worse we have new U-turners (Rilla and Urshifu) and good Volt switchers and new top tier ghost Dragapult.
I'd probably support the ban but think it was premature to quick ban by council Goth which was never banned before so quickly.
Give it a proper suspect

 

[sawamura]

Hello How are you all, I have a long time without addressing you from this medium to express the options and playability of the current meta game which has been the healthiest and most fun I have been in since I started playing SS.

The majority of the council voted straight up for Ban Shadow Tag. Action that at the time was seen as one of the most viable options, but to retake this action was not a suspect test to carry it out because in many past occasions there was talk of banning shadow tag and which was not done in an ironic way. Well I consider an option to carry out this operation on Gothitelle to observe at a later time after the 4 weeks of Ladder is carried out to opt for an option and observe how it can affect the Shadow tag in our current Metagame.

In summary I consider a possible Suspect test of shadow tag in the not too distant future, having measured time as a month and a half c:

SPOILER IF U HAVE QUESTION

My English Is very very bad .-.

 

[RelicanthPrimal]

Hello How are you all, I have a long time without addressing you from this medium to express the options and playability of the current meta game which has been the healthiest and most fun I have been in since I started playing SS.

The majority of the council voted straight up for Ban Shadow Tag. Action that at the time was seen as one of the most viable options, but to retake this action was not a suspect test to carry it out because in many past occasions there was talk of banning shadow tag and which was not done in an ironic way. Well I consider an option to carry out this operation on Gothitelle to observe at a later time after the 4 weeks of Ladder is carried out to opt for an option and observe how it can affect the Shadow tag in our current Metagame.

In summary I consider a possible Suspect test of shadow tag in the not too distant future, having measured time as a month and a half c:

SPOILER IF U HAVE QUESTION

My English Is very very bad .-.

nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo god pls no pls no

 

[DaWoblefet]

While the end result may end up being the same, I agree that a suspect test for Shadow Tag would be a good thing to do. I don't think the reasoning for banning Shadow Tag was very convincing. The only thing we got was a one-off from talkingtree:

This time around, we added Shadow Tag to the slate as it's been regarded as problematic for a long time.

But I don't see any justification as to how Crown Tundra suddenly made Shadow Tag more problematic than it was pre-Crown Tundra (I personally think it was pretty much the same). All of the quickbans of Crown Tundra, save Shadow Tag, were of previously established threats that only required a week or two to determine were still problematic for the same reasons as in previous metagames. Pokemon like Jirachi, Melmetal, or Swagger still did the exact same things as pre-Crown Tundra and the majority recognized that. The difficulty with lumping in Shadow Tag is that it wasn't like that. It had discussion, and there were the bang othitelle memes, but Shadow Tag was never put up for suspect or council vote in any of Doubles OU's history. So it feels like Shadow Tag was just "lumped in" rather than having a proper suspect because it was a convenient way to do it.

This isn't an argument that Shadow Tag should be unbanned, but rather that it should be banned with the same criteria as we would in a standard suspect. If we want to ban stag, let's do it right.

 

[emma]

I agree with DaWoblefet's post. Shadow Tag was quick-banned at the beginning of DLC2 despite never being banned in a previous generation of Doubles (unlike Pokemon such as Marshadow and Jirachi). When OU quick-banned Cinderace during DLC1 (despite not having typical Uber-level stats such as Calyrex-Shadow and Calyrex-Ice), they promised a full suspect test and followed through with it a month later. However, since a majority of the playerbase seem to believe Shadow Tag is broken in SS (myself included) I am here to offer a midground between going through with an immediate suspect and doing nothing: conduct a community survey.

Official tiers OU, UU, NU, National Dex, and Ubers have all conducted community surveys to great success. They allow the council to understand the playbase's thoughts on the tier and what they think the next tiering decision should be, while letting the council still have the final say. It's a great way for the council and playbase to work together to move the tier in the proper direction.

For example, OU sent out a survey on February 15th 2021. and got results back on February 21st. Two of the questions asked about how the playbase felt about Cinderace and Magearna, and the results were pretty favored to both of them being broken. Later that day, Cinderace and Magearna were quickbanned from SS OU. This heavily sped up OU's tiering process. In past generations, both of them would have gone through public suspect tests and just finished getting banned around this week. Instead, OU players were able to play a more healthier and balanced metagame for an extra month and not go through the pain of two suspects back-to-back. It also helped quickly balance the metagame during SPL.

I believe Doubles can have similar success. I would like the DOU council to send out a survey once DPL concludes, with questions such as "How much do you enjoy the current metagame?", "How competitive do you find the current metagame?", and a question on Shadow Tag. Options can be: (with the question not being required for those without a strong opinion)

1. 100% would vote ban if Shadow Tag were publicly suspected
2. Would probably vote ban if Shadow Tag were publicly suspected
3. Would probably vote no ban if Shadow Tag were publicly suspected
4. 100% would vote no ban if Shadow Tag were publicly suspected

Questions such as "How do you feel about Marshadow? Does it deserve a public suspect test down?" could also be included.

The survey could also have two categories of responses: qualified and non-qualified results. To be a "qualified" response, the player would have to complete at least one of the following criteria: (these can obviously be tweaked)

1. Current member of the DOU Council
2. Drafted to play SS DOU in Smogon Snake Draft IV (could be changed to played at least one game)
3. Played at least 1 Game of SS DOU in DPL VII (could be changed to just drafted in DPL or played at least 2 games)
4. Top 12 of DOU Winter Seasonals (could be changed to Top 8 or replaced with some sort of ladder qualification)

This would help filter out responses from less experienced players and put more of an emphasis on players who have seen recent tournament success. Of course, everyone is welcome to fill out the survey no matter what and unqualified responses will still be listened to.

Depending on results of the survey, the council could skip the public suspect process and officialy ban Shadow Tag from SS DOU officially. I think this would be a fair compromise between those who want a real Shadow Tag suspect (since it was quick-banned at the beginning of DLC2 despite never being banned in a previous generation of Doubles) and those who think it's so obviously broken that a suspect would be a waste of time.

 

[MajorBowman]

many many words

I like the general idea of a survey, we did one for the circuit for a few years until opting out last year for no reason in particular. I'm not sure I believe in surveys enough to quickban something that same day off the back of a survey like OU did but I'm all for more input. The only part of Emma's post I take issue with is the part that says council could officially ban Shadow Tag from SS DOU as that's already happened; the quickban near the beginning of Crown Tundra was never meant to just be temporary and has no expiration date.

My only qualm with a survey would be a mass of people starting some weird movement to get a random mon banned or unbanned and expecting that numbers on a survey means entitlement to action but control+F Zamazenta in this thread returns no results so I'm not too worried. Just know up front that if you try to get all your friends to write in "free primal groudon" it will not happen and I will throw a loaf of bread at you next time I see you. Council supports a survey too so look for that soon™.

Shifting gears, council recently began talking about next steps since it's been a few months with no tiering changes, and it's likely that we'll be doing a full suspect test for Shadow Tag. For clarity, this would be a test to unban Shadow Tag as opposed to a test to ban it, meaning that it would require a 60% supermajority to drop back down into DOU. This will likely happen once the laddering phase of DLT has wrapped up just to keep some continuity throughout the four cycles. Beyond that the next steps are unclear, there isn't much that's largely questionable in terms of being broken/healthy/etc in the tier right now and there isn't really anything past Shadow Tag I'd be keen on testing down from DUbers either. We'll see ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[zee]

My only qualm with a survey would be a mass of people starting some weird movement to get a random mon banned or unbanned and expecting that numbers on a survey means entitlement to action but control+F Zamazenta in this thread returns no results so I'm not too worried. Just know up front that if you try to get all your friends to write in "free primal groudon" it will not happen and I will throw a loaf of bread at you next time I see you. Council supports a survey too so look for that soon™.

Honestly I think if a survey is sent out it's totally fair to leave out the usually present "is there anything else you'd like to see looked at" because it avoids these altogether. We know that the discourse is pretty much all on Shadow Tag and Marshadow (to a lesser degree than the former), with the only other opinion I've seen reasonable support for being a ban on Ally Switch. The meta's extremely calm at this time so I don't think any other questions really will gain enough traction. Should concerns arise in the future, it's not like the userbase can't use this thread or council can't administer future surveys.

 

[variationonatheme]

So I had a couple comments I will leave here, since the thread for the recent tiering survey is not open for comments.

First, a takeaway from the survey not mentioned is how little difference there was between the tabulated responses for the "public survey" and the "highly qualified voters". If I'm reading correctly, that's largely because the 32 highly qualified voter responses were part of only 48 responses received (or 2/3 of the total group). I really don't understand the obsession with differentiating players. This seems likely to discourage those who aren't considered "highly qualified" from even sharing their opinions. This wasn't a throw away "When do you shower?" type one-click room survey. The only people reading this stuff and taking the time and effort to respond generally have a pretty good grasp of what's going on.

Second, it occurred to me, while watching the latest DLT and playing the Gen 8 DOU ladder myself, that, at the high level, teams in this Gen are absolutely loaded with Fake Out (ab)users. That has the effect of making things seem very mechanical, e.g., other pokemon protects while Rillaboom switches to Incin to FO, switches to Zeraora to FO, switches to Blastoise to FO, switches to Mew to FO. Rinse and repeat. Out of the 20 matches played so far in the top 16 of the DLT (I know it's not finished just yet), I counted fully half of the 40 teams used as having 2 or more Fake Out users (3 is not even uncommon). Now it's possible a couple mons (e.g., Mews) I counted weren't running Fake Out, but the point stands. By way of comparison (since I know no one here cares about the Gen 7 DOU ladder), I quickly checked usage in the last DPL for Gen 7 DOU battles, and, in the first 5 rounds of play, I counted only 4 of 30 teams running two Fake Out users (never more).

Not coincidentally, by my count, fully half of the 40 teams in the DLT top 16 matches so far were running Rillaboom. To get to the point, I think Rillaboom is largely responsible for the overabundance of Fake Out use. Rilla is usually running Fake Out and Grassy Glide. One of the most effective ways of dealing with priority Grassy Glide is opposing Fake Out. I think either banning Rilla or getting rid of Grassy Glide (which would decrease the overwhelming appeal of this mon) would help lessen this unhealthy dynamic. I realize you guys don't really look at optimizing the gameplay experience per se, but rather whether you consider specific things to be "broken" (why not consider both perspectives?). So my suggestion will likely fall on deaf ears once again, but it's worth considering that only about 1/5 of respondents are at a level 5 satisfaction with the current Gen 8 DOU, which seems very low (why would people bother playing if they didn't like the gameplay?--the people who are at level 1 or 2 satisfaction with Gen 8 DOU may have largely transitioned to other Metas or just stopped playing altogether).

Again, my 2 cents.

 

[Qwello Lee]

I really don't understand the obsession with differentiating players. This seems likely to discourage those who aren't considered "highly qualified" from even sharing their opinions.

And yet this OU survey got 3000+ responses from people that did not fall into the "highly qualified" category, which to me kind of disproves your point. The arguement you could make is that making this distinction in DOU, where the "highly qualified" playerbase has so much overlap with the people who can be arsed to fill out a survey, is pretty pointless and I'd agree with you on that, although tier leadership probably already took note of this fact and won't repeat this distinction in the future.

(why not consider both perspectives?)

Because maximizing fun is not smogon's philosophy when it comes to tiering, from the tiering policy framework:

Overall Goal and Purpose of Tiering Policy:

I.) To create a metagame that is conducive to the more "skilled" player winning over the less "skilled" player a majority of the time.

And more in general because the definitions of "fun" and "enjoyment" vary a lot from person to person and using something so subjective to justify tiering decisions would be foolish and lead to endless arguing, whereas the definition of "skill", "broken" etcetera at least try to be as objective as possible. If you want to change that you can make a post in policy review.

That being said, your post also fails to prove anything meaningful about fake out other than the fact that it has a lot more usage in the current meta compared to SM DOU, but something having a lot of usage is not enough to warrant tiering action. If you want to argue that fake out or rilla inhibit skillful play by all means do so, I for one am always happy to read fresh and new perspectives on the meta.

 

[variationonatheme]

And yet this OU survey got 3000+ responses from people that did not fall into the "highly qualified" category, which to me kind of disproves your point. The arguement you could make is that making this distinction in DOU, where the "highly qualified" playerbase has so much overlap with the people who can be arsed to fill out a survey, is pretty pointless and I'd agree with you on that, although tier leadership probably already took note of this fact and won't repeat this distinction in the future.

That's fascinating. Yes, we aren't OU. In OU, the ratio of proles to "highly qualified" taking their survey is something like 50 to 1. Here it's 1 to 2. There could be a number of reasons for that, but, as a group, intentionally or not, you guys really don't go out of your way to be welcoming.

Because maximizing fun is not smogon's philosophy when it comes to tiering, from the tiering policy framework:

I've noticed that.

I for one am always happy to read fresh and new perspectives on the meta.

That is always my intention, and I hope my comments at least deliver in that regard.

I guess, stepping back, given that Rilla sees so much more usage than KyuB, it's strange to me that you guys are only talking about suspecting KyuB and never Rilla. If KyuB were truly "broken", he would be used more (the way you kind of needed Melmetal on your team before the ban). It's not like there's anything else that's really that exciting to suspect at this point. I guess we can look forward to yet another rehash of shadow tag, but I don't think shadow tag makes less skilled people win more. It's just not really conducive to fun gameplay when combined with fake out in Goth, which I think is similar to the current game with excessive fake outs. You're one of the best at this Meta, and I respect that. Anyway, just something for you guys to think about.

 

[emma]

Hi, I want to talk about the new "Offensive" (I don't know if this is the right word) structure we saw in the first round of DLT Playoffs.

19 Uses (43% / 2nd Place) || 68% Win Rate
15 Uses (34% / 3rd Place) || 53% Win Rate
14 Uses (32% / 4th Place) || 50% Win Rate
Karnisbroke vs. emforbes G1 | Paraplegic vs. JRL G2

Kartana, Urshifu, and Zygarde have started to wrap the meta around each other. Kartana boasts a 181 Base Attack and 109 Base Speed, with a 90 Base Power STAB Attack that gets a 1.3x boost from Grassy Terrain and has a 50% chance to critical hit. Urshifu-R wields a wicked 130 Atk + 97 Spe combination, ignores Intimidate and Defensive Boosts with Surging Strikes, and even breaks Protect with all its attacks. Zygarde has a fantastic Dragon / Ground typing to go along with great stats across the board and an extremely spammable STAB attack that hits normally-immune Pokemon.

It is becoming increasing clear that there is not a lot of reliable defensive counterplay for these Pokemon. Kartana critical hits through all normally dependable switch-ins, Urshifu-R breaks Protect, and Zygarde can sets up Substitute and starts Dragon Dancing around a lot of passive maneuvering. Their presence is only amplified by the multiple forms of support; ranging from Fake Out and a pivot move from Rillaboom, Blastoise, and Zeraora, to redirection from the likes of the aforementioned Blastoise as well as Amoonguss.

It is no secret that this playstyle has been surging in popularity lately, and I want to pinpoint a big three of Kartana, Urshifu-R, and Zygarde as to why. As explained in the last paragraph, all of them have few reliable switch-ins, so you need to go on the offensive (usually with the help of Speed Control) to check the threats. While the shift isn't super notable, yet, I wouldn't be surprised if we continue see a grow in these Kartana / Urshifu-R / Zygarde archetypes. Along with this "new" offense, Psychic Spam is still very strong (1, 2, 3) and that the two teams built fully around DD Zygarde (1, 2) also won. If you want to see more about the teams people have been using, you can go here, here, and here.

I think we are potentially seeing the beginning of a new metagame shift, and I'm excited to see how DLT playoffs continue to go as well as the beginning of Spring Seasonal.

 

[Paraplegic]

I was asked to post this, my response to the tiering survey. I was going to edit this to make it more coherent but I'm actually way too lazy to do that so enjoy my high ramblings unfiltered:

I spend too much time thinking about this

This feels like as good a platform as I'll get to make a case for why I feel like I do for everything in this survey, so here goes: I'll start by getting out of the way that I am rather neutral in enjoyment to this meta, we have experienced far worse this generation so I am loath to complain, but there are several things about/present in this meta that I feel limit the amount of enjoyment I receive from playing it. Things like rilla, expanding force, and sleep are net negative things for my experience personally, but (besides maybe arguably sleep) they aren't really broken and I would never in good faith argue to ban them because it obviously doesn't make sense. However, one thing I do believe to be broken and reasonable to take action against specifically is kyube. Kyube was fine for me when av was the only set people used, but when dd took off and it gained set variety/depth, I felt like it became overbearing. Attempting to mitigate the absolute annoyance that is av kyube is an entirely different beast than trying to dance around dd kyube in a manner that doesn't result in losing half your team, and if either were the only thing I had to consider I'd be okay with it. The issue I take is that you have to consider both when playing vs a kyube until the set is revealed, and bar the couple middle grounds that admittedly do exist like incin and gross, guessing wrong can have dire consequences to your game. Its a mon that truly can take over games and run away with them if given free turns, and guessing wrong usually does just that. I feel it incredibly restrictive both in the builder and in games, and passionately believe that the meta would be a much better one without its presence. I am more than happy to debate this topic with anyone and dive deeper into any of the nuances of it should the interest strike. Marshadow's legality is also something I want to brush on, although my passion for this one is far outshone by mine for kyube's banishment. I think in the current meta we have right now, marshadow would not only probably not be broken, but would serve as an extra way of dealing with kyube that would be greatly appreciated. Now, saying marsh probably wouldn't be broken might be taken as a fantastic statement, but I truly believe, at least in a kyube meta, it wouldnt be. Compared to sm, ss marsh has lost all the options it had which made it so universally threatening. It no long has access to either of SSSSS or hp ice, leaving its like standard set as spectral thief/close combat/shadow sneak/protect, with the ability to probably slot in stuff like poltergeist and feint over shadow sneak should some composition/strategy call for those. Imo at least, that is decidedly less threatening than last gen. This meta has the necessary tools to pivot around marsh in a way that I dont feel would be any extra restrictive compared to what we currently deal with. Things like lando(gets first nod since, again, no more hp ice) and fini would find ways to get in vs it pretty easily, incin would be useful enough for pivoting around it as evidenced by the marsh suspect late last gen(different meta but the specific interactions between the two mons and incin resisting one stab but getting popped by the other are the exact same regardless),and the two currently in vogue terrains, grassy and psychic, are both annoying for it since rilla being able to grassy glide not *that* bulky marsh is an annoyance especially when you account for cc def drops, and psyspam teams utilizing things like amoong definitely allows them to deal with marsh, on top of necro easily 1v1ing and being super popular currently. Speaking of amoong, it and toise are both very popular and good right now, and redirection from either really gets in the way of marsh trading up the way it wants to. I could go on(and will happily if ever asked), but I'd like to think some semblance of a point has been made. Provided people aren't onboard with kyube getting the boot(which would be really sad), I unironically think marshadow deserves a look and don't think it would be nearly as bad as people like to insist that it would be. The final thing I might as well touch on is stag. I think its a broken ass ability, and fake out stag goth was busted as a motherfucker, but I really think we should put this vote up to the community. It doesn't sit right with me that it was legal for multiple whole generations without being touched(kinda, mgar being stag adjacent and all) and then we as a council just decided to give it the boot without community input. I champion testing this before doing anything else and fully acknowledge Im voting to ban the FUCK out of it, but let the people have their voices heard. This ended up being far longer than I'd have thought going into this, but I have thought about this stuff a lot and it was cathartic to get a bit of it down in writing lol. Hope this was insightful!

I was mainly asked to post this in the context of my thoughts on marshadow so to try and expand on my thoughts on marsh, having taken more time since the above answer was given to think about it, I think marshadow could honestly be a good thing for this metagame. It would obviously be very, VERY good. One of, if not the greatest mons that would be legal hands down. Unresisted neutral coverage and that stat spread are amazing and I am not trying to downplay it. However, I think this meta is prepared to be able to handle marshadow, and just judging based off what has been seeing usage since, let's say dpl, I think marshadow would fit in to this meta quite well. I talked about some counterplay that would exist from mons that already see useage in the survey response , but to try and add what I think marsh would add to the meta that would allow it to serve as a positive presence beyond a good kyube check as also alluded to in the survey response. I think the truly good set up options we have in the current meta are, honestly put, kind of lame to play against. Spectral thief would be a really interesting tool to have at our disposal to go about playing against things like dd zygarde/kyube, cm fini or diancie that I feel wouldn't be unfair. Stuff like redirection and not trying to set up before you're in a safe position to do so/switching out so marsh won't steal your boosts doesn't necessarily sound like a set of unhealthy interactions to me. It's also would provide a new check to something like kart (while also being a much safer thing to intimidate lol) and gives an extra option to react to the arguably broken necrozma(you only really get 1 m-beam chance and this would make blowing your shot a more calculated thing which I like the sound of). Hopefully this was coherent, I'm more than happy to debate any of this on discord. I think marsh would be a really cool thing to test at some point and I hope this is some food for thought on why one could maybe be open to the idea.

 

[Human]

snip

As we saw in DPL, the Spectral Thieves really stood to do better. Therefore we should try seeing how the real Spectral Thief does in DOU.

 

[zoe]

On the topic of fighting types, I made a spreadsheet about Urshifu-Rapid Strike. It pits Urshifu against the entirety of the current VR rankings (to Tier 3 I should say) in a 1 on 1 scenario, in a vacuum for the most part. Don't know if it's appropriate for the NP thread, but I also didn't know where else to put it.

I'll probably update it by adding Tiers 4 and 5 and maybe some general polish, but as of right now this is what you've got.

If there's anything that might change the outcome of a certain matchup let me know and I'll try implement it.

(Urshifu set is Choice Band btw)

 

[emforbes]

Out in dlt and i dont plan on revisiting ss tn until something changes so i wanted to type some quick potentially salty thoughts so this will probably be sloppy. I wanna start with urshifu, im really not sure who thought this mon was ok but it needs to fucking go. I could go on all day about it but the main point I want to make is how it single handedly stops defensive counterplay from existing. Both "viable" (theyre literally UR because of urshifu if im being honest) intimidators get ohkod by it, which opens up quite a few issues in doubles due to pins from broken physical attackers like kart and zygarde. I can scroll down the vr and count the number of mons on 1 hand that handle these 3 mons alone defensively, while excluding the presence of more broken mons like necro and heatran that also benefit from urshifu. So if there's basically 0 defensive counterplay to the strong attackers while they're paired with urshifu, I guess we can try offensively then! Due to the amazing speed tier of urshifu and kart/zyg the mon needs to be around base 100 otherwise it'll just die. Look no further than the zenith mons of the tier like zapdos, dragapult, and zera! The worst part is these mons don't actually beat the offensive core, like the team z strats built which is absolutely broken. All of this stress in the builder only occurs because urshifu stomps the defensive mons in the tier. Again, I don't plan on typing an essay about this as I haven't even touched on unseen fist, it's bulk, the fact that it gets u turn, preparing for scarf vs band, the list goes on forever but this shit needs to go.


Briefly wanna touch on kart too, honestly I'm so close to thinking it needs to be banned too but in theory I think it's ok to play against without urshifu support. It's already tier 1 with no item but scope lens pushes it beyond. I whole heartedly think the scope lens set is extremely uncompetitive. There are too many games decided on a leaf blade crit, and the opp has to respect the coinflip even if it doesn't actually occur. This coinflip is way too integral in your average ss game, having such an awful mechanic constantly dictate the board is fucking ridiculous. I don't wanna go on forever but it's sooooooo lame especially in kart mirrors where who wins the tailwind speed tie next to heatran can decide a game on the spot. Not to the same degree as urshifu but kart also hardly has any defensive counterplay with a crit, and then giving it's partner such fast tailwind helps it break whatever can kinda deal with it, like perfect partners urshifu, zygarde, and tran.

So yeah sorry I was all over the place in this post but I wanted to get my thoughts out there