Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 10 - Royals

[PlusC]

Honestly this Pokemon is really disappointing in practice. Very chip-weak, decent but not amazing damage (though it is hard to outright wall) and ultimately it doesn't really DO anything. It can pressure things out could quite well, but not often because it lacks healing (and we have plenty of revenge killers who can do worse if given a free switch), it's a mediocre set up sweeper and screen setter.

I fully support unbanning shield doggo, and reckon it will fall out of OU this year.

 

[TailGlowVM]

Are you sure we are not in a Dracovish / Spectrier type situation where the suspected Pokemon is bad, but it has forced suboptimal team structures? Are Rocky Helmets the best item on every defensive Pokemon? Is bulky Volcarona actually good besides the Zamazenta-C matchup? (Rillaboom and Kartana can just Knock it) Would you choose Slowbro over Slowking on many teams without Zamazenta-C?

Next time you see Zamazenta-C can't do much in a battle, consider whether you think the opponent made significant conscious decisions in the teambuilder that they would not have done without Zamazenta-C, like putting Rocky Helmets on everything, using Slowbro over Slowking, using physically defensive EV spreads on Garchomp or Hippowdon, or using bulky Volcarona and getting their team destroyed by Heatran, Dragapult, or Knock Off Rilla/Kart + something else Volcarona needs to check.

These sort of changes might look trivial at the moment, but they will have consequences in the future, it did happen before. In the Dracovish meta, we saw some teams use Rotom-Mow instead of Rotom-Wash or -Heat because it exploited teams relying on Seismitoad for their Ground-type, and special wallbreakers like Aegislash and Kyurem feasted on Ferrothorn and Toxapex as they had to run full physically defensive spreads. Back when Spectrier was in the tier, we saw the mediocre Zapdos-G rise back to OU because it took advantage of defensive Hydreigon with its typing and Defiant, and lots of Pokemon stopped using Rocky Helmets without Cinderace in the tier.


There could be lots of potentially problematic outcomes of these changes as the metagame unfolds, such as:

• More hazard stacking teams without several Pokemon using Heavy-Duty Boots
• Special attackers like Heatran and Tapu Lele limited by Slowking's presence will become even more popular
• Even more progress can be made by clicking Knock Off in the early game (and I thought the council wanted the opposite)
• More specially offensive wallbreakers like Kyurem and Dragapult with most walls being physically defensive
• More Pokemon have to use Protective Pads to not be killed by the Rocky Helmets
• Said Rocky Helmet wielders then are stuck with mostly useless items
• Lures are developed for Zama-C checks so it can beat the teams that use them, like the mixed DD Kyurem some people have been using

 

[godlierwalrus]

I think zamazenta should not be unbanned to ou due to its lack of counters and revenge killers.

First off I'd like to go over its lack of defensive counterplay. Fighting-steel is an excellent offensive typing and is already difficult to wall, without additional coverage. the only walls to cc/behemoth bash (in ou|uubl|uu) are pex, slowbro, zapdos, moltres, aegislash, buzzwole, volcarona and pelipper. with wild charge as its coverage option, this is narrowed down to zapdos, aegislash, buzzwole and volcarona.
Aegislash has no reliable recovery outside rest and cant force a healthy zama out with anything other than a potential specs shadow ball, which leaves it open to be hit with a +1 wild charge to be ohkod

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 165-195 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 280-330 (107.2 - 126.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

non specs aegislash might run bulk, however it won't do enough damage to scare out zamazenta, and can be chipped down since it has no reliable recovery

Zapdos is forced to either hope for a para or run heat wave to beat zamazenta, and outright loses to howl ice fang, or howl wild charge with electric terrain support.

+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos in Electric Terrain: 190-224 (49.6 - 58.4%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Ice Fang vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos: 212-250 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

if it isn't knocked and the zama set is the standard howl double stab wild charge, with no terrain up zapdos beats it if it has discharge, heat wave or both. It is quite a reliable check if you find away to play around electric terrain and don't get knocked.

Buzzwole could be considered a zamazenta counter, however: it can lose to zamazenta if the zama's team is hazard stack.
This can be played around if the buzzwole has boots, however that would mean not punishing zama attacking on the turn buzzwole comes in, which could mean zama sticks around the whole game until the end. Another way for Zama's team to assist it in beating buzzwole is with future sight support. buzzwole will die to any future sight user in the tier after a behemoth bash, and you will lose your zamazenta check. There is also a rare possibility of the zama being a mixed work up set, with moonblast specifically to kill buzzwole, if this is the case, buzzwole will lose outright. On terms of offensive options to hit zama with, drain punch does just fine in doing solid damage and regenerating health.

Volcarona is quite frail in comparison to other zamazenta checks, however it has access to roost and resists its stabs, which is enough to reliably check zamazenta. zama can struggle to break defensive variants and can get burned by hitting it. Offensive volcarona is scarier as a fire blast could destroy zamazenta if it decides to stay in. However if the volc decides against either using a fire move or quiver dancing it will lose due to +1cc 2hkoing offensive and defensive volcarona. volc will also automatically lose if it gets knocked no matter what variant it is, but besides that it will tank hits and force it out every single time, punishing it with a burn chance

+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Volcarona: 226-267 (60.5 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

These are the only viable defensive zama checks in the meta currently. these can all lose to zamazenta under certain circumstances and their numbers are already quite few. I did not discuss quagsire as it will lose if there is a spike, toxic spike, if its burned or if its poisoned, which are all fairly common situations compared to the other scenarios I've went over previously.

Zamazenta crowned is almost impossible to revenge kill.
There is no priority move in the game that can do enough damage to revenge kill a zamazenta above 40% health. the strongest one is a banded crawdaunt aqua jet under rain, and it fails to ohko an above 40 zamazenta-crowned

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. +1 64 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned in Rain: 102-120 (29.9 - 35.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And so you must rely on being faster than it to kill it.
excluding common scarfers, there are 4 viable pokemon faster than it, 3 of which can actually kill an above 50% health zamazenta.
those 3 are dragapult, tapu koko, and regieleki. zeraora fails to 2hko with non-boosted cc, so it can not be listed as a reliable revenge killer

252 Atk Zeraora Close Combat vs. +1 64 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 114-136 (33.4 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

The only one of these that can kill a 100% health zamazenta is a specs rising voltage regieleki in terrain

252+ SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned in Electric Terrain: 442-522 (129.6 - 153%) -- guaranteed OHKO

tapu koko and pult both fail to ohko a 50% zamazenta without choice specs, so both of those items are mandatory for them if theyre being used to revenge kill zamazenta. all 3 of these are relatively unreliable as they rely on zama being chipped down quite a lot, unless regieleki is in terrain.

there is one viable scarfer that can ohko a full health zama, which is heatran. but since I'm assuming that the zama is at around 50-60% health, I'll count lando t, victini, lele and rotom-heat. all of these are viable revenge killers, but victini and rotom heat can only come in 3 times on rocks, meaning they're not as reliable as lele and lando t. none of these can ohko a full health zamazenta c, unless theyre in sun, in which case victini and rotom heat can ohko from full. 2 of these: lando and victini, can double as soft checks for zama c with a different set: boots for victini and rocky helm/leftovers for lando t

these are the only viable revenge killers in the game, and only one of them can reliably ohko zamazenta, but it can only do that a couple times after taking chip or hazards damage, as eruption weakens in power the lower your health is

252 SpA Heatran Eruption (130 BP) vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 308-366 (90.3 - 107.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

this is the damage after coming in on stealth rocks once.


252 SpA Heatran Eruption (112 BP) vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 266-314 (78 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

this is the damage after coming in on stealth rocks twice, meaning it suffers the same problem as rotom h and victini, in that it can only take a certain amount of hazards damage before it cant reliable revenge kill zamazenta.


This shows how difficult zama can be to wall and revenge kill, meaning it can break through even well made teams with relative ease, its not the only great breaker thats hard to wall, but its the hardest non ubers/ag mon that is near impossible to revenge kill. zamazenta can also switch in on a number of common mons in the tier, such as bisharp or rillaboom, and set up in their faces to win.
I vote for BAN

proof of reqs^^^

 

[OvertoneSeries]

What nature/EV spreads have people been running on Zamazenta? I've seen a few being calced on this thread without really any discussion of them. The default damage calc spread is an Adamant set that sacrifices speed EVs, leaving it outsped by base 107s and higher, leaving it slower than a number of breakers like Blaceph, Terrakion, Kartana, Latios, Weavile and Torn-T, in exchange for some bulk. I'm seeing this set being used for demonstrative purposes in a lot of the pro-ban arguments, ignoring many of its flaws. In my eyes, having this little speed on Zama is pretty poor, because of how non-scarf Kart can RK it. However, I also see a lot of people discussing Zama as if it's always going to be jolly max/max. I'm speaking from my own experience here, but I didn't have much success with Jolly, and instantly started having more with it when I switched to Adamant. However, I also recognize that Adamant puts you in a much worse position against Torn-T, and risks letting Weavile RK you. Curiously, the calcs I've seen in pro-unban posts seem to be using primarily Jolly. The question is wether these two pokemon are enough for you to lower Zama-C's already fairly mediocre power to cover.

On the ladder, I've seen a mix of the two. I'm still trying to form an opinion (currently leaning unban but whatever), and I encourage people if they've purely been using Jolly to give Adamant a try and see if it affects their opinion, and vice versa. I'm also curious to know if anyone's had success putting extra bulk on their Zama.

 

[godlierwalrus]

What nature/EV spreads have people been running on Zamazenta?

I've been using jolly 200 speed to outspeed torn, max attack and rest in hp
the most common I've seen other people use are jolly max attack max speed or ada max attack max speed
i think its necessary to at least outspeed kart, and i like to outspeed torn as np torn is hard to deal with especially in rain

 

[Hugin]

First off I'd like to go over its lack of defensive counterplay. Fighting-steel is an excellent offensive typing and is already difficult to wall, without additional coverage. the only walls to cc/behemoth bash (in ou|uubl|uu) are pex, slowbro, zapdos, moltres, aegislash, buzzwole, volcarona and pelipper. with wild charge as its coverage option, this is narrowed down to zapdos, aegislash, buzzwole and volcarona.
Aegislash has no reliable recovery outside rest and cant force a healthy zama out with anything other than a potential specs shadow ball, which leaves it open to be hit with a +1 wild charge to be ohkod

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 165-195 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 280-330 (107.2 - 126.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

non specs aegislash might run bulk, however it won't do enough damage to scare out zamazenta, and can be chipped down since it has no reliable recovery

You're ignoring other Aegislash sets. SD tanks two Wild Charges and then does 90% at +2. SubToxic...I haven't used it against that set, but it's gonna be messy. +0 Zama can break the subs, -1 can't, so it'll come down to lots of predictions of King's Shield vs Howl. I prefer the mon with leftovers vs the mon with no item in that case, but it's definitely not a good option for either.

Has anyone tried running EV spreads other than as much Atk/Speed as possible on Zamazenta? I've been doing what everyone else is, trying to take advantage of the 130/128, but there might be merit to running a very defensive set with just enough speed for, say, scarf Clefable, and relying on the good base offenses with no investment.

 

[Xufactor]

I’ve been running adamant 236 speed to outspeed base 110s. Only relevant threats you don’t outspeed now are torn and low kick weavile.

 

[Stellar Flares]

Hi, I've been playing the OU Suspect AFD a lot, featuring zamazenta-C and dugtrio Unban (was top 5 on my main and my alt was top 10).
I've been playing Zamazenta a lot, trying diverse strategies, and actually did also play on the current suspect test.
Also I got reqs which is fine :

proof

I'd like to share you some set ideas I've come up with, even if they do seem uncommon and rather gimmickal for some, but ended up being interesting to counterplay some of the supposed checks zamazenta had.

Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Laser Focus
- Close Combat
- Wild Charge
- Behemoth Bash / Howl

Here is the first gimmickal one, featuring Laser Focus to counterplay Iron Defense Skarmory and Iron Defense Corviknight, as well as being able to ignore Landorus's intimidate and deal a good amount of damages on it :

252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 252 HP / 112+ Def Landorus-Therian on a critical hit: 237-280 (62 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 160-190 (40 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight on a critical hit: 241-285 (60.2 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The idea behind it is to attack through Iron Defense Corviknight obviously, as he wouldn't be able to withstand the Laser Focus Combo + Howl.
We're able to rely on Laser Focus thanks to Zamazenta's insane bulk, this set is supposed to break through the most commons defensive cores he'll encounter.

Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 88 Atk / 252 SpA / 168 Spe
Rash Nature
- Work Up
- Focus Blast
- Moonblast
- Behemoth Bash

Up next we have the 2nd gimmickal one, I made a special set so that Zamazenta could effectively destroy Iron Defense Corviknight and Skarmory once again, but what's even funnier with it is it actually bypasses physdef Hippowdon, Quagsire, Tangrowth, Zapdos, Slowbro, Buzzwole and even Garchomp thanks to Moonblast and Focus Blast.
Note : we also run Behemoth Bash to get rid of Slowking Galar, as it would be a shame to be walled by it using Flash Cannon, plus Work Up also grants an attack Boost which fits well for it.

I ran 168 EVs speed on it to outspeed Garchomp, put the remaining EVs in attack to maximise the physical burst but anyway, I didn't really think about the spread, the most important is the 252+ Spa on this set.

+1 252+ SpA Zamazenta-Crowned Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Corviknight: 241-285 (60.2 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers reco
+1 252+ SpA Zamazenta-Crowned Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 306-360 (72.8 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Zamazenta-Crowned Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tangrowth: 400-472 (99 - 116.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Zamazenta-Crowned Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Buzzwole: 408-482 (97.6 - 115.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Zamazenta-Crowned Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 282-334 (78.9 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Zamazenta-Crowned Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 220-259 (55.8 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers re
+2 252+ SpA Zamazenta-Crowned Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 197-232 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Zamazenta-Crowned Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 179-211 (46.7 - 55%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO

Note : This set is obviously thought to be played under Screens, ensuring you'll beat Zapdos and Slowbro thanks to Zamazenta's Bulk. Else foes get 2HKOed anyway.

Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 252 Atk / 152 Def / 104 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rest / Substitute
- Howl
- Close Combat
- Wild Charge

Lastly we got the Rest / Substitute set, I used to play it in stall teams as it provided great switch in to Bisharp, Melmetal, Toxapex, Slowbro in combination with Aromatherapy / Heal Bell users to remove the sleep.
I tried to run Reflect or Light Screen on it too, but the problem then is that there's no offensive move you can use with enough PPs to be able to stall anyhow. Close Combat only have 8 pps, reversal could fit but it won't work anywhere due to its initial low BP.

The only true stall set I could think about with Rest was this one :

Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Def
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Rest
- Light Screen / Reflect
- Metal Burst / Metal Claw
- Sleep Talk / Close Combat

The idea behind it is to swallow powerful special and physical hits from Tapu Lele, Specs Dragapult, Tapu Koko, Regieleki, Landorus-T and Zamazenta itself to send back a powerful Metal Burst.
0 IVs speed and a Relaxed Nature are used to minimize at most our speed, attempting to make good use of Metal Burst.

The main problem of this set is that it literally does nothing besides setting light screen, if the opponent has some regecore, he'll just be able to pp stall zamazenta by switching indefinitely, which is why this set is so bad, plus it doesn't even prevent Dragapult or any set up sweeper to get free Swords Dance or Dragon Dance on it, unless you run Iron Head. It's though still good against choice locked users.


Conclusion :

My thoughts about Zamazenta are shared, I personnally find the pokemon useless due to its restricted movepool, it'll struggle against most of defensive cores anyway, and that's the reason why I'd like to unban the pokemon, as it would be manageable in OU.

However, the real question is : do we need Zamazenta-C in OU ?

Since both magearna and cinderace are gone, the metagame's shape adapted quickly and was somehow static, no real unmanageable / frustrating threat, it's just a bunch of restrictive pokemons that leads your teams to play a bird for Rillaboom, a Lele switch in, an anti-stall mechanic in Heatran or Future sight, a way to deal with Toxapex's and Clefable's Knock Off, an Electric immunity as well as Ground resistances, a way to deal with Volcarona and so one.

This doesn't make this metagame boring, but I see the Zamazenta's suspect test as an opportunity to make things evolve a bit more, as I'm no longer getting surprised by the actual state of this metagame : we're going into the endstate of this metagame evolution's if there's no more added pokemons in SS OU in the future from GF, meaning this suspect test isn't about "is this pokemon too strong for the SS OU tier / Can this pokemon fit the SS OU tier" but more about "do you want to keep the same metagame until remakes / do you want to try something else to diversify the tier more" (as I personnally don't find Zamazenta being restrictive in teambuilding that much as I ran Corviknight Iron def in all my teams due to Garchomp SD / Rilla / Kart being annoying already).

That being said, I'd definitely be voting unban concerning Zamazenta even if I don't find the current SS OU metagame would need it in some way as it was already ok since mag and cinde are gone.

Bonus !
Here is a showcase of the mixed Zamazenta-C !
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1319538234-7sbcn720jrb47nkv2gw2st04h1d9m9fpw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1319562296-l3jocd6utcsi17k2t79cvqt0uevx5lypw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1320943044-atluv0wxiqxmy7nnka6tysrqy158nuipw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1321271778-o0nb40yq5yilvev9ro3yb350cq4pe6upw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1321351682-4u2jr1e7kypt9ytbln20asdw1ulf96upw

 

[Bruh Moment (Fruedasi)]

I think zamazenta should not be unbanned to ou due to its lack of counters and revenge killers.
View attachment 331546

First off I'd like to go over its lack of defensive counterplay. Fighting-steel is an excellent offensive typing and is already difficult to wall, without additional coverage. the only walls to cc/behemoth bash (in ou|uubl|uu) are pex, slowbro, zapdos, moltres, aegislash, buzzwole, volcarona and pelipper. with wild charge as its coverage option, this is narrowed down to zapdos, aegislash, buzzwole and volcarona.
Aegislash has no reliable recovery outside rest and cant force a healthy zama out with anything other than a potential specs shadow ball, which leaves it open to be hit with a +1 wild charge to be ohkod

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 165-195 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 280-330 (107.2 - 126.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

non specs aegislash might run bulk, however it won't do enough damage to scare out zamazenta, and can be chipped down since it has no reliable recovery

Zapdos is forced to either hope for a para or run heat wave to beat zamazenta, and outright loses to howl ice fang, or howl wild charge with electric terrain support.

+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos in Electric Terrain: 190-224 (49.6 - 58.4%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Ice Fang vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos: 212-250 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

if it isn't knocked and the zama set is the standard howl double stab wild charge, with no terrain up zapdos beats it if it has discharge, heat wave or both. It is quite a reliable check if you find away to play around electric terrain and don't get knocked.

Buzzwole could be considered a zamazenta counter, however: it can lose to zamazenta if the zama's team is hazard stack.
This can be played around if the buzzwole has boots, however that would mean not punishing zama attacking on the turn buzzwole comes in, which could mean zama sticks around the whole game until the end. Another way for Zama's team to assist it in beating buzzwole is with future sight support. buzzwole will die to any future sight user in the tier after a behemoth bash, and you will lose your zamazenta check. There is also a rare possibility of the zama being a mixed work up set, with moonblast specifically to kill buzzwole, if this is the case, buzzwole will lose outright. On terms of offensive options to hit zama with, drain punch does just fine in doing solid damage and regenerating health.

Volcarona is quite frail in comparison to other zamazenta checks, however it has access to roost and resists its stabs, which is enough to reliably check zamazenta. zama can struggle to break defensive variants and can get burned by hitting it. Offensive volcarona is scarier as a fire blast could destroy zamazenta if it decides to stay in. However if the volc decides against either using a fire move or quiver dancing it will lose due to +1cc 2hkoing offensive and defensive volcarona. volc will also automatically lose if it gets knocked no matter what variant it is, but besides that it will tank hits and force it out every single time, punishing it with a burn chance

+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Volcarona: 226-267 (60.5 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

These are the only viable defensive zama checks in the meta currently. these can all lose to zamazenta under certain circumstances and their numbers are already quite few. I did not discuss quagsire as it will lose if there is a spike, toxic spike, if its burned or if its poisoned, which are all fairly common situations compared to the other scenarios I've went over previously.

Zamazenta crowned is almost impossible to revenge kill.
There is no priority move in the game that can do enough damage to revenge kill a zamazenta above 40% health. the strongest one is a banded crawdaunt aqua jet under rain, and it fails to ohko an above 40 zamazenta-crowned

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. +1 64 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned in Rain: 102-120 (29.9 - 35.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And so you must rely on being faster than it to kill it.
excluding common scarfers, there are 4 viable pokemon faster than it, 3 of which can actually kill an above 50% health zamazenta.
those 3 are dragapult, tapu koko, and regieleki. zeraora fails to 2hko with non-boosted cc, so it can not be listed as a reliable revenge killer

252 Atk Zeraora Close Combat vs. +1 64 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 114-136 (33.4 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

The only one of these that can kill a 100% health zamazenta is a specs rising voltage regieleki in terrain

252+ SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned in Electric Terrain: 442-522 (129.6 - 153%) -- guaranteed OHKO

tapu koko and pult both fail to ohko a 50% zamazenta without choice specs, so both of those items are mandatory for them if theyre being used to revenge kill zamazenta. all 3 of these are relatively unreliable as they rely on zama being chipped down quite a lot, unless regieleki is in terrain.

there is one viable scarfer that can ohko a full health zama, which is heatran. but since I'm assuming that the zama is at around 50-60% health, I'll count lando t, victini, lele and rotom-heat. all of these are viable revenge killers, but victini and rotom heat can only come in 3 times on rocks, meaning they're not as reliable as lele and lando t. none of these can ohko a full health zamazenta c, unless theyre in sun, in which case victini and rotom heat can ohko from full. 2 of these: lando and victini, can double as soft checks for zama c with a different set: boots for victini and rocky helm/leftovers for lando t

these are the only viable revenge killers in the game, and only one of them can reliably ohko zamazenta, but it can only do that a couple times after taking chip or hazards damage, as eruption weakens in power the lower your health is

252 SpA Heatran Eruption (130 BP) vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 308-366 (90.3 - 107.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

this is the damage after coming in on stealth rocks once.


252 SpA Heatran Eruption (112 BP) vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 266-314 (78 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

this is the damage after coming in on stealth rocks twice, meaning it suffers the same problem as rotom h and victini, in that it can only take a certain amount of hazards damage before it cant reliable revenge kill zamazenta.


This shows how difficult zama can be to wall and revenge kill, meaning it can break through even well made teams with relative ease, its not the only great breaker thats hard to wall, but its the hardest non ubers/ag mon that is near impossible to revenge kill. zamazenta can also switch in on a number of common mons in the tier, such as bisharp or rillaboom, and set up in their faces to win.
I vote for BAN
View attachment 331555
proof of reqs^^^

About counters. I disagree. You don't put most of the checks of Zama. Like bulky waters, metal birds. Also you didn't put in account that no matter if you are breaking against the checks that you said. You don't get into many flaws of Zama on my opinion. Chip Damage beats it easily. People said about Rocky Helmet, but Spikes Offense or Balance can shit on Zama, mainly because of Spikes beating Zamazenta down, also 4MSS you said about Volcarona being frail but again it will roost off the damage and you need to pray for the burn not happening. Same for Zapdos, and Discharge can beat it. Again the Zama user needs to hope for the paralysis not happening which is a 60% chance if you're attacking and then if you setup its still a 30% chance. There's also the possibility of using Roar on Defensive Zapdos(which is underrated) that can easily phaze out Zama and make it taking more Spikes damage. In theory it overwhelms all of its checks. In reality it suffers from 4MSS. you're using Howl double stab ice fang right? then you lose to bulky waters and metal birds. Oh so I will use the standard howl set?then you lose to Zapdos, Tangrowth, Lando-T and Garchomp, then I will use Howl CC + BoltBeam it will be the best set right? Then you get walled by Clefable. A steel type walled by Clefable. Also you still lose to Quag, Volcarona, Buzzwole(even that it will not go long term. Zama will also not last long term), Aegislash, Victini. But hey now I will use Howl double stab play rough, and then you get walled by more things, and why you're not considering phazing and spikes? These two are the best counterplay for Zama. It relies too much in Howl boosts to be threatning, then if Defensive Zapdos phaze you out. Then it will be more spikes damage for your team. And most revenge killers doesn't need to OHKO and most can at least not die in 1 shot. Also most things go out with spikes. You put the example of Scarf Heatran, then you add only 1 layer of Spikes and Zama is dead. See the problem? And if it comes twice then it still has a chance of OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes. Then if you put 2 layers Zama is absolutely dead and if you add phazing then Zama can't do much things
"BUT OFFENSE GETS DESTROYED"
And I will say no. Offense not only can adapt but also has good revenge killers and Volcarona who can easily run a Defensive QD set. And stall will not beat offense. Also you said that you're running Jolly you don't break things that easily meaning that you relies even more on Howl boosts to be threatning. Also for all of the proban arguments I will ask to you one question. Why being so scared of the offense Matchup? Why using this as a argument when on the past we also had mons that destroys some playstyles and are fine? Like for example ORAS Gliscor, ADV Blaziken and other things. See? The thing about offense matchup should not be a thing to bring up on a proban argument. Since the playstyle can adapt and there was other mons on the past that also destroys on the correct matchup. Like Blissey against a special offense team in ADV. But special offense still could adapt for using a method to deal with it(aka Dugtrio) this is a adapt that offense could also use for. Even that this means Defensive QD Volcarona. Or Specs Dragapult with Spikes. There's room for it. I don't think that the offense matchup can be brought up as a reason. However the only proban argument I support is that Zama forces the metagame to be more bulky. Which on some degree I agree since most walls will be physically defensive, but not restrictive remember that you can still use Zama check + special wall on a team. And about Lele and Heatran being more common you need a check to Lele most of the time now(and also Kyurem. no Blissey will not just take care since specs Focus blast from kyurem 2HKOs and specs psyshock 2HKOs).However Scarftran isn't that of a issue. And can be easily exploited by Zama + Heatran cores, which are pretty common and synergetic, you can use Jirachi or Scizor to beat Lele, or Slowking. So good building on my opinion could beat not only Zama, but also the rest of the metagame, but the fact that the meta gets more fat is still true. So on my opinion the proban arguments aren't that good, only 1 made me thinking. It's usually people saying about its godlike stats for OU. But it doesn't seems as a issue on my opinion. Spikes shut down this thing really hard and it needs howl to break things. A good mon but managable.
Thanks for reading.

 

[Dreadfury]

Are you sure we are not in a Dracovish / Spectrier type situation where the suspected Pokemon is bad, but it has forced suboptimal team structures?

I don't think this is at all a reasonable point of comparison. Dracovish and Spectrier were so difficult to effectively deal with that they mandated a Water immunity and an absurdly bulky Ghost-resist or a Ghost-immunity, respectively, on every single competent team. OU doesn't exactly have a lot of those.

For example, in the Dracovish meta we had Storm Drain Gastrodon, Water Absorb Vaporeon, and the extremely commonly-used Water Absorb Seismitoad among the tier's list of definitive Dracovish answers, and as soon as Dracovish was banned basically all of those fell completely out of favor. Toad is relegated to Rain teams as a Swift Swimmer, Gastrodon runs Sticky Hold, and Vaporeon is a shitmon that has no semblance of viability. Bunker Toxapex was admittedly a thing that existed for a time, but that too was used exclusively to check Dracovish because Dracovish managed to muscle past it with ease with a CB Fishious Rend.

Spectrier was arguably worse in that regard because it still had easy ways to punish its would-be answers. SpDef Tyranitar needed Rest to not hate getting hit by Wisp and was tasked with switching in against so much stuff. Mandibuzz could eventually be overwhelmed by Knock Off from Spectrier's teammates. Hydreigon lacked a lot of offensive presence because it was forced to invest into enough bulk to deal with Spectrier. Obstagoon is largely mediocre but was on paper a fantastic Spectrier check, but it didn't handle Mud Shot well whatsoever and got worn down easily. Blissey began running Shadow Ball exclusively to not get bricked by Spectrier, until Spectrier decided to run Sub+CM and set up on SBall Blissey with ease.

Zamazenta-Crowned, on the other hand, doesn't have any particularly unusual counterplay in this metagame. Zapdos was good long before Zama-C was a blip on the suspect radar, Volcarona was on the rise once more, Slowbro was always good at checking most physical attackers, Landorus-T and Garchomp were both top-5 mons (and debatably even top 2 mons), Dragapult was already quickly establishing itself as a borderline-S-rank mon, Tapu Koko was already a fantastic pick, Torn-T's Speed tier was already metagame-defining to the point where stuff faster than it was automatically very good, and Zeraora was already an infuriatingly good offensive pivot. The mons I listed were already fantastic before Zama-C and now make for either solid checks/counters or great teammates. Zama-C doesn't exactly force suboptimal team structures because most competent teams are already packing an answer to it, not because it mandates an answer but because its answers were already good.

EDIT: I also wanna add that neither Vish nor Spectrier were bad.

 

[John W]

I think unbanning zamazenta would be problematic for OU.

On paper it may not seem to be the most versatile mon with having access to only howl as a setup move, but in practice thats more than enough to overwhelm an opponent imo. I laddered all 30 games with slowking + koko + heal bell support for zamazenta so in pretty much every game, I was able to either force multiple kills or setup vs supposed checks like toxapex, slowbro, and occasionally defensive lando t. Not to mention, it single handily invalidates HO with being an excellent revenge killer and check to mons such as rillaboom, weavile, bisharp, melmetal, azumarill, and scizor.

While playing I was surprised at how useful the +1 defensive boost was for setup opportunities especially against slower balanced cores in where fsight isn't as important to break. I thought the lack of reliable recovery on the offensive set could be an issue but when playing I never really had this issue since I usually could get multiple kills to put me so far ahead that I no longer need zamazenta to win the game. Even a weakened zamazenta was a pain for some of my opponents if they lacked koko/draga to revenge kill.

I haven't read others opinions in this thread yet but this was just my experience laddering and I'll be voting ban most likely

 

[Abhi]

Hello there
I just want to get my opinions out there.

Doggo. Doge. Zamazenta-C. This pokemon has many names and nicknames, but no one expected it to be suspected in OU when this gen started. Zamazenta-C although far from bad in the current metagame is a pretty underwhelming presence, however I do like it. It's a breath of fresh air and it brings a nice new feel to teambuilding and playing and it's really fun. It's not even close to broken in my opinion it has a large number of good checks and is nowhere close to restrictive in teambuilding nor is it all that hard to play around, and its bringing a lot to the table while doing so!! It's a great set up sweeper in Hyper Offensive structures, a great Future Sight abuser and breaker in Balance and Bulky Offense and a very cool win condition and physical wall on stall, stall has been becoming ever so common after the suspect has started and I love it. I really like how diverse the metagame becomes with this in the tier, although I'm not sure if I will vote unban on it or not, the meta is still developing ofcourse and till more time passes I'm rather indifferent on this pokemon. It's not broken per se, but it can rip apart teams when played right and can just 6-0 some teams in team preview, and on the other hand it can be very underwhelming in some games. Now I'd like to talk about its sets (yes I know this has all been said previously in the thread, but I'm in the mood to write and theres no analyses or QC checks for me to do ).

Howl Sweeper

boy do I love this sprite.
Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Howl
- Close Combat
- Behemoth Bash
- Wild Charge / Ice Fang
This set is bonkers. Behind dual screens it gets a thousand opportunities to set up, oh you thought a +1 boost isnt enough? It sets up more howls with its incredible bulk. This is the set that makes me be indifferent on Zamazenta-C, if not for this I'd very well be pro unban. Its incredible speed makes it hard to revenge kill as well, and its resistant to all the common forms of priority. I personally prefer Wild Charge on this set as things like Skarmory and Slowbro can be very hard to break through otherwise, Ice Fang is pretty good too hitting Zapdos and Landorus-T two very common checks of its. I prefer an Adamant nature usually because of the extra power which can really come in handy in some situations, although Jolly can be very useful to revenge kill opposing Zamazenta-C and Tornadus-T. Tapu Koko is a great partner for this great wallbreaker, as it can consistently provide screens for it to abuse all while boosting its Wild Charge allowing it to break through its checks easier. Pokemon with shared checks like Dragonite and Hawlucha work very well too since they can abuse Zamazenta-C's ability to weaken/dent Zapdos, Corviknight, and Skarmory.
This set also works great on balance and bulky offensive teams since it performs great as a Future Sight Abuser while also being able to clean teams with Howl late game. This set is definitely my most favourite to use right now. For this I more often go for Ice Fang and pair it with Magnezone to deal with the birds. Ice Fang can make it easy to break through Zapdos which is probably the most common check to it at the moment, Wild Charge is still a great option ofcourse. I absolutely love how well this pairs with Toxic Zeraora, since they share checks which can be easily crippled with Toxic, and Knock Off can greatly help Zamazenta-C by Knocking Off the boots from its checks. Slowking can also pair incredibly well with it since it can offer it free switch ins as well as Future Sight support allowing it to break incredibly efficiently.
Zamazenta-C HO
ZamaZera​

​

RestHowl

Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 232 HP / 40 Atk / 236 Spe
Impish Nature
- Rest
- Close Combat
- Behemoth Bash
- Howl
You've seen Howl Zamazenta-C, you've seen Rest Zamazenta-C, it's time for RestHowl Zamazenta-C. Yes, I did make this set myself. Yes, it's a bit weird. Yes, it's good and it works. This set is absolutely bonkers on stall teams, it's a great win condition in stall only held back by its low pp, it can also check a bunch of pokemon like Rillaboom, Zeraora, Bisharp and Weavile, and it can revenge kill Kartana which is great. Although, it's more of a backup check to all these pokemon that helps take pressure off of your other walls. These EVs let it outspeed base 110s and let it OHKO a Zeraora after it has used Close Combat on Zamazenta-C, and the rest has been dumped into HP with a Impish nature for maximum bulk. This set pairs very well with Aromatherapy users like Blissey or Clefable, both have their plus points; Blissey can spread status or Teleport out to Zamazenta-C and Clefable can act as an additional win con with Calm Mind as well as help it check Zeraora and special threats like Kyurem and Dragapult. Things like Skarmory work great too since Zamazenta-C can alleviate pressure off of Skarmory, Skamory also acts as a great check to things like Garchomp and Excadrill that Zamazenta-C can struggle with as well as act as an additional win con with Iron Defence and Body Press.
Zamazenta-C Stall


Checks and Counters

Zamazenta-C although very strong and fast has quite a choice of number of valid checks, which makes it rather easy to build against. These range from offensive checks like Garchomp to more defensive ones like Zapdos, it even has offensive checks that help with it defensively like Kings Shield Aegislash and Bulky Volcarona. Funny how a shield is using a shield to shield itself against a shield. Pokemon like Slowbro, Skarmory, Corviknight and Toxapex work great too since they dont take much from its STABs and can shrug its attacks off with their recovery, however they should be very careful of it in electric terrain since its Wild Charge can threaten to KO them then. Bulky Ground-types like physically defensive Garchomp and LandorusT work as well but they do need to be aware of its Ice Fang and even without they can't take repeated strong hits due to their lack of recovery, they can however dent Zamazenta-C by a lot with their STAB Earthquakes.

I have a lot more to say about this doggo but I'll end this here since its midnight rn, but I'll finish off by saying, Use Zamazenta-C Stall it's very fun I swear, ask DKM. With that being said, Bye!

 

[TailGlowVM]

Zamazenta-Crowned, on the other hand, doesn't have any particularly unusual counterplay in this metagame. Zapdos was good long before Zama-C was a blip on the suspect radar, Volcarona was on the rise once more, Slowbro was always good at checking most physical attackers, Landorus-T and Garchomp were both top-5 mons (and debatably even top 2 mons), Dragapult was already quickly establishing itself as a borderline-S-rank mon, Tapu Koko was already a fantastic pick, Torn-T's Speed tier was already metagame-defining to the point where stuff faster than it was automatically very good, and Zeraora was already an infuriatingly good offensive pivot. The mons I listed were already fantastic before Zama-C and now make for either solid checks/counters or great teammates. Zama-C doesn't exactly force suboptimal team structures because most competent teams are already packing an answer to it, not because it mandates an answer but because its answers were already good.

Apart from demanding Rocky Helmets on everything, reminiscent of the Cinderace meta, making Pokemon use EV spreads that are otherwise suboptimal, leaving them vulnerable to threats they used to beat, and in the case of Slowbro, likely preventing you from using Slowking, which is superior in the post-Ace and Mag meta for the reasons Finchinator states on the VR thread.

Okay, this is a significantly lesser change than Spectrier and Dracovish forced, but I think you are exaggerating a bit too: several of Dracovish and Spectrier's checks were already good in past and/or current metas like Toxapex, Ferrothorn, Gastrodon (which did run Storm Drain in old gens), specially defensive Tyranitar, Dragapult, and Mandibuzz. Although defensive Seismitoad is dead at the moment, I don't think it would completely be without Swampert in the tier, as Seismitoad was considered somewhat viable in past generations.

Some people, necessary or not, are proposing niche Pokemon like Alolan Marowak, which is a sign the current metagame cannot handle it and is going to require adaptation, especially since just like the fish and the horse, Zamazenta can overcome some of its checks. Whilst current Zamazenta sets are easy to wall, it may start choosing some different options, after all, we have only had it for two days. Try Electric Terrain Zamazenta, or Crunch Zamazenta, or the sets that Stellar Flare posted, and see if you have better luck. You may or may not succeed, but it is IMO important to make sure we fully explore the wolf's potential before committing to bring it to OU for good, which I believe we have not done yet.

TL;DR: I think too many people have written off Zamazenta-C too quickly, without actually considering all it can do and what impact it will have. Spectrier would never have got anywhere in OU if everyone just gave up using it once there was a Mandibuzz or Blissey everywhere to switch into a Specs Shadow Ball, would it?

 

[Xufactor]

I think that Zamazenta should provide speed control and risk control, not to break or even attack often against bulkier teams. Since it’s main counters are defensive recover mons and it has great matchups against the Pokémon that don’t counter it, expect your opponent to switch to their counter often, and you can double often to a wallbreaker. This generally doesn’t happen as often with attackers other than Z-C because they have less speed/bulk and it is more likely the opponent will stay in.
An underrated way you can play Zamazenta is to send it out as a blanket midground play to cover physical and some special attackers.
As some people have mentioned, you can also save Zamazenta’s hp and counter a sweeper when it sets up.

 

[vroooom]

Alright, I think that zamazenta crowned has always been uber because of it's 720 base stats and a grassy seed abillity everytime it comes in, the real problem with zama though is not how it gets checked and even most times fs + wild charge 2hkos slowbro and 1hkos pex and heavy chip on lando and zapdos, which can lead to a problem since your check has been weaken which can play long term. I think that people will still be using weavile, Etc. But like urshifu its gonna make the meta not any better. Wishpass or healing wish have all been used recently and they are both good recovery, my point is that zamazenta is really ristricting lategame that the player has to keep their check alive or they insta lose to zama also, I think that scarf trick is a great way to kill zapdos since most zapdos just expect a hydro pump after you trick a choice scarf they easily get 2hkod by wild charge +1 and rocks which then can end in a loss. Also, zama isn't always gonna sweep sometimes its just a endgame mon or a early game mon, zamazenta is also amazing vs stall because quagsire takes 43.6 - 51.7% and spike stack for toxapex overall making stall have to run hippo which even would be baited by toxic zeraora. I will be voting to keep this monster banned so the metagame can progress.

 

[actuallybad]

I swear, well over half of the posts in this thread are basically saying the same thing, that since Zamazenta is such a terrible wallbreaker, it isn't unhealthy. I believe these posters are focusing too much on what Zamazenta does in a game, and too little on what Zamazenta doesn't allow in a game.
Here's something I'm curious about: Why do people want Zamazenta unbanned? If it's such a mediocre wallbreaker, and it is, what does it add to the tier? A Knock Off switch-in that's basically useless against the standard balance teams otherwise? Compare that to the incredible restraining effect it has on teambuilding: Zamazenta makes many otherwise excellent physical wallbreakers, like Weavile, Bisharp, and Kartana, as well as comparatively more niche ones that are still worth using, like Crawdaunt and Terrakion, in whole or in part unusable (before you go all "But Terrakion hits it super effectively," might I remind you that clicking literally any move other than Close Combat swings momentum back to the Zamazenta user? Can you really claim to Close Combat perfectly every turn?), as well as greatly limiting even special wallbreakers like Kyurem and Hydreigon.
Why is this a problem? Because all of these Pokemon are great at breaking the common balance cores that a) people keep complaining about and b) that Zamazenta would continue to force. This creates a bizarre state where these Pokemon are no longer as consistent, or completely inconsistent, all to make room for a Pokemon that... is a terrible replacement, that is in fact so terrible I hestitate to even call it a wallbreaker. I thought people were tired of Rocky-Helmet-spamming balances that rely heavily on indirect damage to make progress.
I ask you: what's the point? What's the point of introducing such a thoroughly mediocre excuse of an offensive Pokemon to a healthy, balanced metagame? And is it worth such centralization?
In other words, does Zamazenta make the metagame better? And if not, what's the point of unbanning it?

 

[readytolose]

I subscribe to the philosophy that the Ubers tier is a banlist first, and a tier second, and as such any Pokemon in the Ubers tier must be deemed to be too strong for the OU tier in order to be there, full stop. As such, any discussion as to whether Zamazenta-C "makes the metagame better" is irrelevant to me. The argument should be whether it is broken or not. If it is broken, it makes the metagame worse, and if it is not, its impact on the tier is morally neutral at worst. Whether or not Zamazenta-C drops should be determined by whether its impact is objectively, not subjectively negative on the tier.

And as for what Zamazenta-C adds to the tier, it provides an offensive check to two of the (arguably) most powerful offensive forces in the metagame currently, being Rillaboom and Tornadus-T. Sure, it results in the decline of rising Dark-types in Bisharp and Weavile and shifts the meta back towards fat Fighting checks, Rocky Helmet and other physical punishing that we've seen drop off since the Urshifu, Cinderace, and Pheromosa bans, but I'd like to encourage everyone to be as objective as possible here. Just because you like the current meta isn't enough to justify keeping it this way, you also need to effectively demonstrate that Zamazenta-C would be broken in the current meta or you're not convincing anyone.

 

[Bruh Moment (Fruedasi)]

Apart from demanding Rocky Helmets on everything, reminiscent of the Cinderace meta, making Pokemon use EV spreads that are otherwise suboptimal, leaving them vulnerable to threats they used to beat, and in the case of Slowbro, likely preventing you from using Slowking, which is superior in the post-Ace and Mag meta for the reasons Finchinator states on the VR thread.

Okay, this is a significantly lesser change than Spectrier and Dracovish forced, but I think you are exaggerating a bit too: several of Dracovish and Spectrier's checks were already good in past and/or current metas like Toxapex, Ferrothorn, Gastrodon (which did run Storm Drain in old gens), specially defensive Tyranitar, Dragapult, and Mandibuzz. Although defensive Seismitoad is dead at the moment, I don't think it would completely be without Swampert in the tier, as Seismitoad was considered somewhat viable in past generations.

Some people, necessary or not, are proposing niche Pokemon like Alolan Marowak, which is a sign the current metagame cannot handle it and is going to require adaptation, especially since just like the fish and the horse, Zamazenta can overcome some of its checks. Whilst current Zamazenta sets are easy to wall, it may start choosing some different options, after all, we have only had it for two days. Try Electric Terrain Zamazenta, or Crunch Zamazenta, or the sets that Stellar Flare posted, and see if you have better luck. You may or may not succeed, but it is IMO important to make sure we fully explore the wolf's potential before committing to bring it to OU for good, which I believe we have not done yet.

TL;DR: I think too many people have written off Zamazenta-C too quickly, without actually considering all it can do and what impact it will have. Spectrier would never have got anywhere in OU if everyone just gave up using it once there was a Mandibuzz or Blissey everywhere to switch into a Specs Shadow Ball, would it?

Zamazenta can overcome its checks? Yes. Does make it also weak to other checks? Yes. There's no need for niche mons and suboptimal spreads are only on Volcarona. Iron Defense Corviknight has always been a thing, Physically defensive Skarmory. Also you can check it without Rocky Helmet. Rocky Helmet isn't as necessary. You can check it with Spikes and phazing. The metagame can handle it. I don't see people bring up Alolan Marowak as a check to Zama(although funny it indeed is) because there's already OU mons that check it. On my personal opinion. So don't think that this is a good argument at all. But Dracovish and Spectrier are other cases. They're completely different of Zama on my opinion. While yes the checks are viable on the past. It was not like Zama. Apart from Volcarona, Aegislash, Buzzwole and Tang most of the mons are A Tier before Zama When Spectrier was not around Tyranitar was UU and Blissey wasn't that common. Same goes for Mandibuzz, then the Spectrier came and Tyranitar rised into OU, Mandibuzz becames the Deffoger. And Shadow Ball Blissey became one of the best checks. What is common here? None of this mons are popular before Spectrier. While Defensive Lando-T was already common. Defensive Zapdos was the Standard set. Pex is Pex. The only changes I see is Volcarona(who was already rising), Aegislash back and Buzzwole back. Also Tang was still solid before Zama.
T.L.D.R:
- While people may see me as a guy that will vote unban, however I'm indifferent. Zama doesn't seems that of a issue both defensively and offensively, however Zama forces a more chip damage bulky meta actually. Forcing most of the teams to be fat as fuck. However on the other hand it relies way much to get howl boost on the lategame. And if the check is still alive then Zama has trouble. Zama isn't a breaker. It's a bulky lategame cleaner that shits on most offensive mons that are rising(Bisharp, Weavile, Rillaboom and etc...) to get it's boosts and clean up teams, however it needs a lot of support to break through his checks and to overcome its chip damage flaw that its way too abusable. That's why I support most unban. This single handlely flaw is on my opinion what is keeping Zama from being send back to Ubers, without chip damage and its another flaw on status its single handled a S Tier mon that overcentralizes the metagame way too much. However when you add chip damage then its not that centralizing, op anymore. It's just a very good mon. Without chip damage Zama is the best mon on OU. With chip damage its A- tier, being good but not that op or broken on my opinion. However I still agree to some degree that Zama may forces fat spikes balance cores.
- Zamazenta's thing on the metagame is that its one of the best checks against Offense while being a lategame cleaner. It's a offensive mon with big defensive utility that can also clean lategame and offers speed control. This set of tools is amazing because this means that Zama can take a slot as both a check to offense and offensive threat on its own. That's why it's unique for me on the metagame. We never had that sets of unique tools on OU. For me it will be good for the metagame for that reasons
- Non-Howl Offensive Zamazenta sucks on my opinion. Zamazenta relies too much on Howl boosts to clean and be threatning. Without it, it simply doesn't has offensive presence. Defensive sets are meh. The best on my opinion will still be RestHowl who can shit and sweep on its own(reminds me of the good old CurseLax). Or Standard Howl who can clean up teams while still offering defensive utility and being a offensive threat
Thanks for reading this!

 

[kstiemsma]

I've been playing on suspect ladder a bunch so far, and wanted to add some of my thoughts.

- Behemoth Bash is a waste of a moveslot from all the games I've played with it. Outside of STAB for neutral hits, there's almost nothing besides Clef that makes this worth running on Howl+3attacks over BoltBeam+CC. Making it so you don't get walled by is great and giving comparable damage on without the defense drop and conserving PP is nice. Volc walls you either way and Lele has a 95.7% chance to get 2HKO'd by Wild Charge anyways. I do agree though that offensive Zam is underwhelming and that's without other OU viable mons having a chance to adapt to the metagame and rise up such as and .

- I think people have been underselling the effectiveness of Zam on semistall/ stall teams (Abhisdn417 made some great points about this in their post too). Since the days offorcing+SwSh has been a very blanket-check oriented tier where you have two or three mons that help to check the various sets (+ to checkfor example). When using Zam, the great thing about it is that it can check almost any mon in the tier once or twice due to the bulk. Rest Zam + Aromatherapy Blissey is extremely easy to spam, especially when stuff like SR Rest Chomp and Hex Pult was already prevalent in the teambuilder. There were many times when I was able to preserve my five mon core after a misplay by switching Zam into a situation that nothing else in the tier could for it to take 40% and be able to pivot out or Rest on the switch for very little risk.

Right now, I would say I'm leaning slightly towards ban, mostly due to its centralizing influence on the tier and pushing fat teams over the edge. It's still early and I will def be watching more games to gain a further informed opinion. The tier's really gonna shift if this does stay and it'll be interesting to follow the developments either way.

 

[Fc]

Got reqs yesterday so I wanted to share my initial thoughts, they might change since I haven't played with it outside of those 30+ games, and I still have to see the full impact of what it does.

From the first day looking at it, I don't think that Zamazenta is completely broken always, but it doesn't bring anything beneficial to the tier and is easily a top tier threat. From what's been popping up in usage you'll see things like lando + pex, Slowbro + speed control, Hippo + sand, all phys.def and with Rocky Helmet to try and bring it down slowly. This increase in those Pokemon and the trends that have popped up remind me a lot of the impact that Cinderace has. It had soft checks that could chip it down reliably, but there are still ways to break through them.

The set:

Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Howl
- Close Combat
- Behemoth Bash
- Wild Charge

Imo this is the best and almost only worth while Zamazenta set aside from some small changes like Jolly Nature or Ice Fang somewhere, but it's insanely effective. I ran Slowbro + Volt Switch Zeraora + Garchomp to deal with it, and it was still sometimes able to heavily chip down Slowbro especially with how often that mon has to come in. I had a game where I was able to double Howl on a pivot and just ko a Slowbro from 80+ percent. I don't think that some checks and counters are reliable enough to consider them good enough always for the job, especially with Future Sight. I feel like Future Sight is the cause of so many problems at this point but that's another argument, but regardless Zamazenta abuses it super well and is able to break through a lot of its best switch ins because they can hardly take 2 hits naturally, let alone with a Future Sight stacked on top of it.

I think with all that in mind I'm leaning towards ban, but if I do find it to be a little more manageable throughout the time we have it on ladder that may change. I think it just has so many really good qualities while also pairing well with a ton of great Pokemon and forcing a lot of defensive mons to stack together and run Rocky Helmet to beat it somewhat inconsistently, which is where my opinion stands rn.

 

[theotherguytm]

Reading this is giving me flashbacks to a very similar suspect test:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-ss-ou-suspect-process-round-3-iron-man.3662190/

DISCLAIMER: MELMETAL AND ZAM-C ARE TWO DIFFERENT POKEMON AND WERE SUSPECTED IN TOTALLY DIFFERENT METAGAMES. PLEASE DO NOT DIRECTLY COMPARE THE TWO.

Basically the reason I'm bringing up this suspect test is Melmetal was a Pokemon that over the course of its suspect went through 3 phases:
1. Ha look at these funny calcs of it 1v1ing the entire tier
2. Wow this thing gets worn by chip so easily, and the metagame can adapt to it with a few minor tweaks here and there
3. Wait a minute what if I don't want to run multiple Rocky Helmet mons on every team

Basically, what I'm saying is the two have a lot of similarities in terms of people's reaction to them, and how people are adapting to them.
In the end the metagame managed to adapt to Melmetal but people viewed it as too constraining and it was banned.

So what I'm going to say now is my thoughts on Zam-C, and they're actually pretty similar to my thoughts on Melmetal:
The metagame can adapt to Zam-C because of its lack of recovery, but the question is: How much is too much? At what point will people regard the constraints Zam-C puts on teambuilding as too much?
I see this vote as going either way, and we'll all just have to wait and see how Zam-C turns out in practice. It could be that it's manageable or takes too much team support. Or it could be that its sheer bulk gives a good player too many options to get around its checks. All we know for sure, is we get to find out the answer now.

 

[Ox the Fox]

I just finished getting my reqs and have a lot to say about this mon. I'll use this post to show why despite me thinking zamazenta is a bad mon, I don't think it should be unbanned.

I played around 15 games with zama in the 1500-1600 range and I can honestly say it didn't put in work for a single game. It was a mon that was on my team just for the sake of having it, and provided no real utility. While it does come in on some threatening mons like bisharp and rillaboom, it doesn't hit hard whatsoever and is likely going to be deadweight in games vs corvi or slowbro, even with future sight support. I finally gave up on using it when I setup howl 3 times and couldn't even OHKO a corviknight.

In terms of what it does to the metagame, I think it negatively impacts it. Of course, I have to preface this by saying this is mostly theoretical, as the meta has only been active for 2 days. My first issue with it is it invalidates certain mons like weavile and bisharp. This might not seem like a huge deal, as a lot of mons are invalidated by other mons, but making it harder to run these two mons only means that dragapult becomes even harder to offensively check. My second issue with it is how difficult it is for offense to deal with it. It does extremely well vs most typical offense mons like rillaboom, bisharp, and scizor, and is extremely hard to switch into unless you slap volcarona on your team. Both of these points lead up to my main point which is Zamazenta-C doesn't make the meta healthier than it currently is. I don't think we should be unbanning a mon just for the sake of unbanning it, but rather because it makes the meta healthier. Just because I don't think the mon is very good, it still warps the meta an unhealthy amount and will leave the meta worse than how it was before. I know a lot of people are bored with the current meta but I urge you to find ways to innovate and explore the mons that are within the meta, rather than bringing a new mon down which I believe will create an even worse and more boring meta in a month or two.

So yeah, keep this thing in ubers.

 

[readytolose]

The argument that "Zamazenta-C should not be OU because it would exacerbate another element like Dragapult and make it broken" seems to me to be a variant of "We should not ban Urshifu-S because it's one of the best offensive checks to Spectrier", or if you want to go a bit further back, "if Melmetal gets banned Clefable would be too centralizing". In other words, an inversion on the ol' broken-checking-broken argument. Pokemon should be evaluated based on whether their own impact on the metagame is enough to make them banworthy. Like, I get it to some extent, the tier is the most balanced it has been in a long time and people are latching on to that, but we shouldn't get too attached. But when there's posts from users admitting that Zamazenta-C is unimpressive and underwhelming in OU and that they still are going to vote ban on it because of the potential ramifications of it they are just showing that they are, to some extent, resistant to change. If Zamazenta-C is allowed in OU, if it depreciates all the offensive Dark-types like Weavile and Bisharp, and suddenly Dragapult starts feeling too overbearing because offensive teams cannot slot ghost resists at all, there is a solution to this: suspect testing Dragapult. It's that simple.

If the concern is that offensive teams will struggle to adapt to it, you'll have to convince me a little harder. If you make the argument that "this mon was very unimpressive in the games I played with it, but I still don't want to unban it because offense struggles with it (yes I'm referring to Ox the Fox's post in case that wasn't obvious yet)", why would anyone use it to such an extent that offense needs to completely restructure due to its presence in the tier? It can be difficult to judge when a mon is somewhat matchup-based, as Zamazenta-C is, whether those team types would be able to adapt to it. A good example of this would be going back to the Dracovish suspect. Now there is a mon who had overwhelmingly positive matchups against bulkier teams, but only average matchups against offense, similar to how Zamazenta-C has great matchups against offense but poorer matchups against any sort of balance that carries one or two checks to it. The difference here is that Dracovish was so overbearing that it forced the usage of otherwise unviable mons as switch-ins and could still have some use against offense due to running shit like Choice Scarf in rain. If you think that Zamazenta-C's matchups are similarly polarizing, that's fine, but you should argue for that if you think it should be banned rather than saying how it was complete rubbish and did nothing. If you want to convince me Zamazenta-C's presence on the tier would be negative, you first need to convince me that it's broken.

Again, I personally disagree with the claim that Zamazenta-C's presence would be unhealthy for the tier. I think that it would provide a healthy check to otherwise somewhat problematic offensive elements in Tornadus-T and Rillaboom. I think that offense would be able to adapt to it, and that Zamazenta-C would be a mon that offensive teams would actually be able to use as well, to improve their matchup against opposing offensive teams. However, this doesn't have an impact on whether I think Zamazenta-C should be allowed in the tier. The only determining factor should be whether Zamazenta-C's ability in battle makes it too strong. That's it.

 

[Finchinator]

There have now been a slew of posts that claim Zamazenta-Crowned is underwhelming, but they dislike the impact it has on the metagame, leading them to favoring the pro-ban side. I think that this is a stance being taken after 2 days is a bit premature.

Back when Melmetal was tested in DLC1, I voted not to ban it because it did not seem broken to me and the warping it had on the metagame seemed like more of a short-term reaction than anything else. Obviously we are in a very different metagame now, but Melmetal is far from problematic now and I do not believe it would have been then either.

Zamazenta-Crowned is an entirely different beast than Melmetal; it is much weaker and has a lesser movepool, but it is also much bulkier and faster, which makes it more polarizing than Melmetal. In fact, I absolutely understand why people fear that Zamazenta-Crowned will force more defensive structures and centralize the metagame in a less-than-ideal fashion. However, we are only two days in and making these snap judgements without seeing the metagame playing out at all is premature.

I personally am confident that if Zamazenta-Crowned is not outright broken -- which I and most other posters believe it is not (look at Ox's post, he says it is bad, but wants it banned due to warping the metagame, for example), then the metagame will adapt to it and it will not be a particularly unhealthy presence. Offense and hyper offense have adapted time after time this generation. We saw an uptick in Clefable usage in DLC1, so the cores with BU Urshifu + SD Hawlucha or Kommo-O pop up to overwhelm Clefable and threaten to sweep from there. We saw a rise in Skarmory (and Corviknight) after the Urshifu ban, making Mandibuzz less necessary, so we saw more Magnezone when using Rillaboom or Ground types. We saw Specs Dragapult pop up more and more as a revenge killer, which was challenging for offenses to switch in to, so Weavile and Bisharp began seeing more usage to take advantage of Shadow Ball locks. These are just a few examples of offensive archetypes adapting to handle common metagame threats that threatened their viability. This spans back further back into the generation and through prior generations, too.

Perhaps Zamazenta-Crowned will be challenging to offense; one can argue that it will be even more challenging than the aforementioned problems that forced adaptation, too. I very much agree that is the case as the current trendy picks like Rillaboom, Weavile, Bisharp, and Kartana do not appreciate Zamazenta-Crowned at all. With this said, that does not mean that Zamazenta-Crowned is broken or unhealthy. The metagame always has a revolving door of trends and there is a very real chance that this is no different.

Here are some already relevant examples:

• I have already seen an uptick in as a sweeper on (hyper) offense; it was already on the rise and it does a great job against Zamazenta-Crowned while also checking Rillaboom/Kartana and abusing the surge in Flame Body Heatran.
• I have been using bulky pivot over suicide lead Landorus-T on set-up spam in order to find more openings than just one preliminary one; Stealth Rock being set once is not doing a ton with HDB being so common, so using Landorus-T to open the door multiple times has served me better than with one Explosion early on. This set is able to at least check Zamazenta-Crowned once or twice, if not outright keep it at bay.
• Swords Dance :Aegislash: is a surprisingly effective option with Mandibuzz usage being near an all-time low and Defog Corviknight being set-up fodder; with Bisharp and Weavile seeing less usage due to Zamazenta-Crowned's ban, Aegislash is particularly underrated and it sits on Zamazenta-Crowned very easily while working on offensive teams. Personally have been havin a lot of success with it paired with SD Ground types.
• is more of a bulky-offensive option than hyper offensive, but it also is able to fit on to these teams while also checking Tapu Lele, Clefable, and defensive Volcarona and, of course, matching up very well with Zamazenta-Crowned. We saw this thing a few times later in SPL and it has been spammed by a few dudes in the 18-1900s as well.
• Offensive 3A + Roost has been good for a while now and works on bulky-offense and balance teams, too. It is less of a fit on HO than all of the above options I must admit, but it does very well here, too, and it is super underrated. It did well against the Darks, Melmetal, Rillaboom, Kartana, Grounds, and now also Zamazenta-Crowned.

There are likely more, too. The point is that offense has adapted countless times and absolutely will adapt again. Will the adaptation be enough? I am not entirely sure, but if you believe Zamazenta-Crowned has sufficient counterplay, which posters have largely agreed upon -- again, even pro-ban posts like Ox have made this explicitly clear -- then you absolutely should not be writing it off due to warping the tier when we have only been through two days. if the suspect is over and you still feel this way, by all means go for it. However, metagames adapt and there are clearly tools to adapt here. Offense (and hyper offense in particular) has been super flexible since mid-2020 and there are plenty of promising prospects that lead me to believe it will still be moving forward with Zamazenta-Crowned -- just read through the options listed above. Zamazenta-Crowned absolutely has sufficient counterplay in the metagame, including offensive counterplay.

All generation people have been complaining about metagame stagnancy and being forced to use the same things repeatedly, but now you have a lot of room for change and a brand new option to shake up the status quo. If you think it is too much, by all means vote to ban it when the time comes, but writing it off because you do not like the knee-jerk effects it has on the metagame is as premature as possibly can be. Do your due diligence, continue to play the metagame, and make an informed decision in a couple of weeks rather than being resistant to any semblance of change.

 

[Obsidian297]

Behemoth Bash is terrible, Howl + CC/BoltBeam is far superior, you only do less damage against Clef and other rare fairies. Even then, it is so mediocre that I was considering using Hawlucha over it. At least with CC + Wild Charge, you beat all non- steels, and CC + Ice Fang is great neutral coverage across the meta, only being resisted by ; most of whom die to Wild Charge

It's not a very good sweeper, it wishes it had more power, it's more of a defensive pivot, kinda like how used to be used on offense as a pivot so that the frailer mons could switch around freely