Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - The Three of Us

[Mega-Pokebattlerz]

Arena Trap is a Get Out of Jail Free card. A good teambuilder can simply optimize their Dugtrio/Trapinch to trap the most prominent threats to their team and immediately put the opponent at a disadvantage. Is your team weak to Zeraora? Scarf Dugtrio outspeeds and KOs with Earthquake. Running Dracovish? There's a Trapinch set posted earlier in this thread that traps and eliminates Gastrodon and Seismitoad with Giga Drain (yes, seriously). Toxapex walls you? Band Dugtrio can 2HKO with Earthquake, even if gets burned after the first one. The ubiquity of Arena Trap also stifles teambuilding, effectively forcing anything at risk of being trapped to run Shed Shell. Why do you think we never see Specs Toxtricity anymore? All Dugtrio has to do is come in on Overdrive, and Toxtricity is a sitting duck. Perhaps I'm overexaggerating, but this does not belong in a balanced metagame. Ban.

 

[Pokedom10]

Why do you think we never see Specs Toxtricity anymore? All Dugtrio has to do is come in on Overdrive, and Toxtricity is a sitting duck.

Just so we're clear here, Dugtrio alone invalidated Toxtricity so hard it dropped to UU. Like all that stuff about how Toxtricity was already on the decline, and how linear it tends to be, all that is valid; but Dugtrio made it such a liability its usage bombed.

 

[AwokenCraybat]

Just so we're clear here, Dugtrio alone invalidated Toxtricity so hard it dropped to UU. Like all that stuff about how Toxtricity was already on the decline, and how linear it tends to be, all that is valid; but Dugtrio made it such a liability its usage bombed.

I don't think Dugtrio invalidated Toxicitry alone. It had a couple other problems. No mon is perfect and there are plenty fast mons in OU Tox should be scared of.

 

[Apagogie]

I don't think Dugtrio invalidated Toxicitry alone. It had a couple other problems. No mon is perfect and there are plenty fast mons in OU Tox should be scared of.

I agree with you but specs toxicitry would be an interesting mon to use against clefable, toxapex or corviknight. Even if it's not the strongest mon ever, it is unplayable right now due to the presence of dugtrio and the fact it cannot reliably beat any of the mons listed above if there is a dugtrio in the opposite team (due to teleport, u-turn or baneful banker). I think that's what Pokedom10 meant and in this sense, dugtrio restricts the diversity of builds. Talking about a better mon, I would like to see how a spd jirachi could work in this metagame as glue. It's something dugtrio prevents as well.

 

[theotherguytm]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-473872
Top level replay of Toxtricity ripping through an OU balance team in spite of its Shed Shell. Now imagine how scary it could be with an actual item. Tox is completely invalidated by Dugtrio and otherwise has a scary matchup against common defensive cores. Its issue is it gets trapped and destroyed every time it claims a kill unless it wastes its item, which reduces its staying power of breaking capability.

 

[Dragonnathan025]

It's been a few years since I've played OU, and have been getting back into it recently, but I've also been reading over this forum, and have a couple of points to make.

First, it seems that Dugtrio acts as an amazing revenge killer, since most of the time if it's switched in, it's free revenge. However, whatever dies will often be a counter to Dugtrio, either using priority, scarf, or is simply in a higher speed tier, which is much more common since Home came to the meta. I know this isn't the main reason people want it banned, but due to its fragility, and the fragile nature of all three 'mons with Arena Trap, it's almost impossible to switch in to non-electric or rock moves without a Sash, or Eviolite and resisting the attack, thus making it feel like the best use is as a guaranteed revenge killer. There are plenty of things that fulfill this role, even if they're not guaranteed, such as anything with decent attacking stats with priority, or again, a higher speed tier. In other words, for this point, it feels like Dugtrio is just better at what it wants to do, and to me doesn't feel like warranting a ban, since it feels like it auto-loses to any form of priority.

Second, is what was mentioned above. Arena Trap, and specifically on Dugtrio, seems to only counter a very small amount of the most-used 'mons in the OU meta, yet people have been saying that because it can win 100% of the time against one specific 'mon, it deserves the ban. For as long as Pokemon has existed, there have been multiple Pokemon who lose against something else, they simply cannot beat it no matter how hard they try. It's how niches develop, it's how the metagame develops. My point here is, Dugtrio is good against some of those 'mons, but there's plenty more that beat it, in return, as well as being fairly neutral against the rest, or not working as people want it to. The point for this is, Arena Trap Dugtrio deserves to be banned, because it's a check to a top 'mon? And even not a hard answer, as it can't even switch in safely to Excadrill (the aforementioned 'mon), to either Earthquake or Iron Head.

I don't believe Arena Trap is banworthy, as it feels to be, at best, a tool for revenge killing, or in some situations a tool for killing an annoying mon or something that would otherwise be a check or counter to another 'mon on the Dug's team. But, that's really just like setting up for a sweep, similar to Baton Pass or something else similar. It takes skill to properly use Arena Trap, and it takes skill to prepare for it.

Thank you for reading, these are my thoughts, I hope they help in the decision-making process.

 

[KztxL7]

You're missing the entire point. Dugtrio /Arena Trap comes in on specific threats. Usually ones that stop your entire team. After that Dugtrio can die. Or you can switch it out and save it for another threat.

But as long as it removes that primary threat it will heavily skew a game in your favor. With disgustingly high rates of success yo the point that people have to screw themselves with Shed Shell.

 

[Pro_Hybrid]

It's been a few years since I've played OU, and have been getting back into it recently, but I've also been reading over this forum, and have a couple of points to make.

First, it seems that Dugtrio acts as an amazing revenge killer, since most of the time if it's switched in, it's free revenge. However, whatever dies will often be a counter to Dugtrio, either using priority, scarf, or is simply in a higher speed tier, which is much more common since Home came to the meta. I know this isn't the main reason people want it banned, but due to its fragility, and the fragile nature of all three 'mons with Arena Trap, it's almost impossible to switch in to non-electric or rock moves without a Sash, or Eviolite and resisting the attack, thus making it feel like the best use is as a guaranteed revenge killer. There are plenty of things that fulfill this role, even if they're not guaranteed, such as anything with decent attacking stats with priority, or again, a higher speed tier. In other words, for this point, it feels like Dugtrio is just better at what it wants to do, and to me doesn't feel like warranting a ban, since it feels like it auto-loses to any form of priority.

Second, is what was mentioned above. Arena Trap, and specifically on Dugtrio, seems to only counter a very small amount of the most-used 'mons in the OU meta, yet people have been saying that because it can win 100% of the time against one specific 'mon, it deserves the ban. For as long as Pokemon has existed, there have been multiple Pokemon who lose against something else, they simply cannot beat it no matter how hard they try. It's how niches develop, it's how the metagame develops. My point here is, Dugtrio is good against some of those 'mons, but there's plenty more that beat it, in return, as well as being fairly neutral against the rest, or not working as people want it to. The point for this is, Arena Trap Dugtrio deserves to be banned, because it's a check to a top 'mon? And even not a hard answer, as it can't even switch in safely to Excadrill (the aforementioned 'mon), to either Earthquake or Iron Head.

I don't believe Arena Trap is banworthy, as it feels to be, at best, a tool for revenge killing, or in some situations a tool for killing an annoying mon or something that would otherwise be a check or counter to another 'mon on the Dug's team. But, that's really just like setting up for a sweep, similar to Baton Pass or something else similar. It takes skill to properly use Arena Trap, and it takes skill to prepare for it.

Thank you for reading, these are my thoughts, I hope they help in the decision-making process.

I'm gonna try and refute some of these points.

Second, is what was mentioned above. Arena Trap, and specifically on Dugtrio, seems to only counter a very small amount of the most-used 'mons in the OU meta, yet people have been saying that because it can win 100% of the time against one specific 'mon, it deserves the ban.

I'm just gonna directly quote what Lilburr said at the start of the thread, as I really feel like they explain this point the best.

"Clefable and Excadrill are the only Pokemon in the top 10 that Dugtrio can reliably trap. Even going down to top 20, only Toxapex, Zeraora and Kyurem get added, depending on the set. This means that 14/20 of the top 20 most used Pokemon are untrappable or will consistently beat Dugtrio 1v1. This points to quite a large issue. Dugtrio is so warping that, because it's literally uncounterable, it's effectively mandatory to just use teams that feature Pokemon Dugtrio cannot trap. This is a horrible sign for the metagame. Many Pokemon simply cannot shine at all despite their excellent attributes. Terrakion, Toxtricity, Cinderace etc. lose so much viability simply because they're weak to Earthquake. It's ridiculously centralising."

For as long as Pokemon has existed, there have been multiple Pokemon who lose against something else, they simply cannot beat it no matter how hard they try. It's how niches develop, it's how the metagame develops. My point here is, Dugtrio is good against some of those 'mons, but there's plenty more that beat it, in return, as well as being fairly neutral against the rest, or not working as people want it to. The point for this is, Arena Trap Dugtrio deserves to be banned, because it's a check to a top 'mon?

Dugtrio doesn't have to worry about Mons that beat it/check it/counter it, all it needs to do is eliminate one or two key-threats that have no option but to run Shed Shell or just die most of the time, because switching is no longer an option. No other Mon in this metagame can do that.

And even not a hard answer, as it can't even switch in safely to Excadrill (the aforementioned 'mon), to either Earthquake or Iron Head.
I don't believe Arena Trap is banworthy, as it feels to be, at best, a tool for revenge killing, or in some situations a tool for killing an annoying mon or something that would otherwise be a check or counter to another 'mon on the Dug's team.

Dugtrio doesn't have to worry about switching in a lot of the time. It manipulates lead match-up from the get-go because of its existence, and pivoting tools like U-Turn, Volt Switch, Parting Shot, and the newly-buffed Teleport especially, all help get Dugtrio in for free. That also doesn't count its Focus Sash set which has the potential to switch into potential threats, for example CB Tyranitar, and use Reversal to KO it. And of course, its ability to revenge kill stuff.

 

[theotherguytm]

It's been a few years since I've played OU, and have been getting back into it recently, but I've also been reading over this forum, and have a couple of points to make.

Great, watch these to get up to speed. All these are from SPL.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-476343 (Dugtrio traps Excadrill T2 with no counterplay)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-478708 (Dugtrio V Ditto and forcing Clef to burn Wishes.)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-479467 (Dugtrio V Dugtrio)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-478683 (Dugtrio traps 3 mons in one game)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-477996 (Dugtrio returning lategame to wreak havok)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-473699 (Dugtrio on HO as a suicide trapper)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-475539 (Dugtrio Sweep. Not even joking. Maximum Cheese.)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-471196 (Dugtrio kills an entire team, more than half of which can't even be trapped.)
I think you get the idea.

 

[Orifice Annihilator]

Dugtrio doesn't have to worry about switching in a lot of the time. It manipulates lead match-up from the get-go because of its existence, and pivoting tools like U-Turn, Volt Switch, Parting Shot, and the newly-buffed Teleport especially, all help get Dugtrio in for free. That also doesn't count its Focus Sash set which has the potential to switch into potential threats, for example CB Tyranitar, and use Reversal to KO it. And of course, its ability to revenge kill stuff.

Just to point out a couple of thoughts on your last comment there!

The best counter I have found to combatting the use of focus sash Dugtrio is to set up some Stealth Rocks or Spikes of your own, thereby breaking his sash. Also, it is hard to switch Dugtrio into Pokemon, as it's base stats are 35 HP/50 Defence/70 Sp.Defence so it is quite frail and therefore cannot switch in especially to a choice band Tyranitar!

 

[Floss]

Just to point out a couple of thoughts on your last comment there!

The best counter I have found to combatting the use of focus sash Dugtrio is to set up some Stealth Rocks or Spikes of your own, thereby breaking his sash. Also, it is hard to switch Dugtrio into Pokemon, as it's base stats are 35 HP/50 Defence/70 Sp.Defence so it is quite frail and therefore cannot switch in especially to a choice band Tyranitar!

It might not be optimal in some ingame scenarios to set said hazards rather than other actions, especially if the Dugtrio turns out to be a non-Sash variant. The most common way of discovering Sash Duggy usually ends in a success for the Dugtrio user, eg. the Tyranitar example given. Also, the counterpoint regarding the Tyranitar nullification falls short because switching in with Sash and living at 1% ensures the Tyranitar kill. After that, Duggy can be used as sack fodder because it achieved its purpose.

 

[Ruft]

There's the option of having Clefable use Wish + Teleport to bring Focus Sash Dugtrio in on hazards and restore its health and thereby its sash, which I haven't seen mentioned. Of course Defog support from the likes of Corviknight and Mandibuzz works too; they also have a slow U-turn, which allows them to bring in Dugtrio safely. It just happens to be that Clefable and Corviknight are also the two most prominent Pokemon in the metagame, so yeah, just getting hazards up is not enough to count out Focus Sash Dugtrio.

 

[BrothaJdogg]

Just to point out a couple of thoughts on your last comment there!

The best counter I have found to combatting the use of focus sash Dugtrio is to set up some Stealth Rocks or Spikes of your own, thereby breaking his sash. Also, it is hard to switch Dugtrio into Pokemon, as it's base stats are 35 HP/50 Defence/70 Sp.Defence so it is quite frail and therefore cannot switch in especially to a choice band Tyranitar!

In a vacuum, yes, you could set up hazards to break Duggy's sash and minimize it's potential threat. However, you need to take into account that the Duggy user is most likely aware of this (assuming its sash) and will likely prioritize hazard removal at his/her first opportunity to put you back to square one. Furthermore, if it turns out to be a choice set (Band being the most common, but I've frequently run into scarf variants trying to snipe Zeraora as seen in replay 1 below), then hazards does practically nothing to stop it (yes, technically it limits the number of switch ins, but the Trapper isn't trying to switch Duggy in and out constantly; it's trying to get it in as clean as possible and surgically remove a specific threat from the opponents team)

Most of the arguments for banning AT have been made pretty well in prior posts, so I'll try to present one other arguments I haven't seen as much: The in-game psychological effect trapping has, and how it plays almost exclusively into the Trap abusers favor. If you're running a team with a trappable target, you'll know at team preview who the trapper is and what it's going to try to remove. However, because of that knowledge, the player with the trap target has to always second-guess his next move: Do I go for the optimal play in that specific turn, or try to predict the trapper coming in and make pre-emptive switch. Best case scenario you are forced into a 50/50 prediction situation where the wrong move can have catastrophic effects, worst case scenario is you're opponent will just make the safe U-turn/Volt-switch play so no matter what you do he can bring in the right mon for the situation.

Take replay 2 below as an example. At team preview I see the Duggy, and know it can trap Excadrill, Toxapex, and/or Zeraora on my team. I also know that Hippo and Toxapex will be crucial for keeping my opponents Zeraora and Keldeo from just clickin' buttons, respectively. Taking all this into account, you'll notice that my first four turns I'm making plays in anticipation of the Duggy:

1) I lead with Hippo, who doesn't care about Duggy and leads well against most of his team. My opponent makes a good prediction and leads Keldeo, most likely seeing the same thing and expecting me to lead either Hippo or Hydreigon

2) I know judging from Team Preview that it's Specs Keld and Toxapex can wall it, but I don't feel comfortable switching straight into it in the event that my opponent predicts the first turn switch and goes straight into Duggy, so I make the "midground" switch into Togekiss and take a hefty hit

3) I predict him to stay and try to finish and now go into Pex, but now comes the 50/50. Do I stay in with pex and go for either the Knock or Recover on Keld (which would do a solid job of neutralizing it for the rest of the game), or do I make a double into Hippo predicting him to finally switch into Duggy? I go with the latter and get blasted, and by turn 4 I'm already very susceptible to outright losing to my opponents Zeraora in the back (luckily I was able to pull it back since my opponent ended up not using Duggy "effectively" and let his Zeraora get poisoned and worn down, but I very well should have lost this game). The point I'm trying to make is the presence or possibility of a Trapper on the opponents team puts severe limitations on not only teambuilding as stated before, but in-game scenarios as shown here.

Replay 1 (scarf Duggy is a thing): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1080897515

Replay 2 (the meat and potatoes): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1080439961

 

[Finchinator]

Just got reqs and want to say that I am still in the pro-ban camp.

I believe Arena Trap has been banworthy since before home even dropped. However, it has proven that it is unquestionably an issue by Dugtrio adapting to the metagame around it in shifting from using predominantly the Choice Band variant to a mixture that features a bit more of the Focus Sash set. The fact that trapping can mold itself to fit the need of teams and eliminate a wide pool of potential threats just proves the pro-ban sides argument even further. Dugtrio's trapping is a constant restrictive force on teambuilding and gameplay, removing the fundamental gameplay component of switching. Adding things like Zeraora, who is faster, and Kyurem, who can survive any single CB attack and OHKO back, into the metagame did not slow it down at all as people adapted with the Focus Sash set (and even started using Endure in order to handle Kyurem with SR up or some chip).

Adaptability of Dugtrio specifically aside, Arena Trap is just straight-up broken in its own way, too. Much like in previous generations, Dugtrio is able to abuse it to pick off specific walls and pivots that can break open games without giving the opponent much of a chance besides continuously playing around a certain scenario, which also invalidates using those countermeasures as they are intended. No other Pokemon in the tier have the same unforgiving impact on gameplay and I do not view this dynamic as a healthy one. If there were less practical applications of Arena Trap, then it may be a different story, but we can see how effective Dugtrio is in removing a plethora of viable options (Kyurem, Toxapex, Excadrill, Tyranitar, and others depending on specific circumstances). Seeing as we have probable cause to believe any decent user of the ability could be similarly, if not even more, problematic, and plenty of historic precedent to back this up, I am confident that banning Arena Trap will not only improve the metagame, but also serve as the best tiering decision going into this period. Therefore, I will be voting ban.

 

[CadmusRhodium]

I ain't skilled enough to get reqs for the suspect test because I'm bad at the game, but I do believe that Duggy is probably the only thing holding back several huge threats right now. Terrakion (you could use QA to beat Duggy I guess but that implies it didn't OHKO you first) and Zeraora come to mind as both are powerful offensive threats that hate being trapped by Dugtrio. Were the stupid three headed mole thing not in the metagame they would probably tear up the whole tier. I'm not trying to say Dugtrio is healthy, rather that the fact that it's important in checking so many things like this says something about how good it is.

 

[Your Hopes and Dreams]

I ain't skilled enough to get reqs for the suspect test because I'm bad at the game, but I do believe that Duggy is probably the only thing holding back several huge threats right now. Terrakion (you could use QA to beat Duggy I guess but that implies it didn't OHKO you first) and Zeraora come to mind as both are powerful offensive threats that hate being trapped by Dugtrio. Were the stupid three headed mole thing not in the metagame they would probably tear up the whole tier. I'm not trying to say Dugtrio is healthy, rather that the fact that it's important in checking so many things like this says something about how good it is.

There's a long-lasting precedent that has been set around situations like this, mainly that broken/overly-centralizing things should not be left untouched just because they keep potentially broken/overly-centralizing things in check. In the event that Arena Trap is banned, if Pokemon such as Terrakion and Zeraora are proven to possibly be too overwhelming for the tier, then they too will have action taken against them. It's just that simple.

Pertaining to Arena Trap, I can't really comment on anything that hasn't been commented on in this thread already. Shit is busted, let's get it out and move on to bigger and better things.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

I just want to say that I am absolutely amazed at just how much of an absolute joke some of these "arguments" for anti-ban are...

Here's the thing, I've spoken my mind on this garbage ability since 2015, go ahead check it out if you want. I have been vehemently in favor of Arena Trap being axed. So, with that said, there is absolutely nothing more that I can say that I haven't already regurgitated ad nauseam for the past 5 years...
5 Years!

It's noncompetitive, it's unhealthy as all hell, and it shouldn't have been unbanned in the first place.

Next!

EDIT:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-471196

This replay exemplifies just how potent Dugtrio is. We constantly talk in circles about running Shed Shell on a Pokemon who is bound to be trapped. However we fail to mention that it also traps Pokemon weakened enough to die to an EQ or Stone Edge. Seismitoad is not typically an ideal Dugtrio target but, as you can see in the above replay, you bet your ass it is when it's under 45% health and I can remove it so that I can freely Volt Switch around with my Rotom-Heat. Dugtrio does FAR more than just trapping a few selective Pokemon. It traps everything that isn't levitating or a ghost, and if given the opportunity, it WILL remove that Pokemon. Not only that, look at just how important it was for TaceBreeze to get rocks up to prevent Dugtrio from being able to come in again... They spent most of the game HAVING to worry about keeping them up to remove Dugtrio, and then it ended up costing them the game.

Just Saying.

 

[VannAccessible]

I haven’t been laddering lately, but I had been experimenting with Dugtrio a few weeks back with the idea it was only a matter of time it would be suspected.

One strat I came up with utilizing AT that I came up was AT Toxic stall, and was so positively cancerous and unbalanced, in that it allowed Dugtrio to kill things it had no business touching - things like Seismatoad, Gastrodon, Vaporeon, Def Kommo-O, Hippowdon (lacking Whirlwind), Celebi, Mew, and Necrozma. These are in addition to all the offensive mons it normally traps, like Cinderace, Terrakoin, Toxitricity and Tyranitar.

I affectionately dubbed it Dugtrio Cancer.

——————-

My variant utilized a core of Sub+Protect Dugtrio and Toxic Excadrill.

Dugtrio (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Substitute
- Protect

Excadrill (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock

—————-

Basically, since Excadrill naturally counters and scares out Toxic immune Poison and Steel types, as well as MG Clefable, it is the perfect Toxic user. (It’s also a magnet for Pelliper and Mandibuzz, which can’t be AT trapped, but still hate Toxic.)

Drill draws in a defensive walls’ and if it’s able to Toxic it, even on a predicted sack, Dugtrio is able to come in on it and trap it, and alternate between Protect and Substitute it, as Toxic slowly bleeds it to death.

The strat paired well with Sun and Rain, in that those play styles pressure natural counters to this strat like Corviknight and Ferrothorn, and Rain particularly benefits from the removal of Water immune mons. Trapping Seismatoad in this manner is also way easier to pull off than using Trapinarch.

Furthermore, both weathers styles also benefit from the dual ground mons pressuring Toxapex, as well as trapping Tyranitar.

Totally brain dead strat, aided even further with U-Turn or Teleport support helping Dugtrio get in, and yet another perfect example of Arena Trap’s uncompetitiveness.

 

[stfu itz a cartoon]

I just want to say that I am absolutely amazed at just how much of an absolute joke some of these "arguments" for anti-ban are...

This replay exemplifies just how potent Dugtrio is.

Your replay exemplifies just how potent dugtrio was in January. Its ridiculously misleading to support a pro-ban claim in the post-home metagame with a replay from the pre-home metagame. This flawed argument would certainly fall under the "absolute joke" category as well. The irony...

 

[zbr]

Your replay exemplifies just how potent dugtrio was in January. Its ridiculously misleading to support a pro-ban claim in the post-home metagame with a replay from the pre-home metagame. This flawed argument would certainly fall under the "absolute joke" category as well. The irony...

If anything it goes to show that dugtrio has been a threat since the beginning of ss. There has been loads of talks about quick banning this pokemon and in the post home environment where there are more pokemons to work with, dugtrio is seen as a better answer to trappable mons and easily removable threats. On top of that, we lost pursuit this gen, which means that players will want to seek alternatives to being able to trap and kill threats or severely weakened mons, making arena trap in general a lot more favorable as a go to option to trap and kill. I don't think his post had any issues with regards to timeline anyway.

 

[Pokedom10]

Your replay exemplifies just how potent dugtrio was in January. Its ridiculously misleading to support a pro-ban claim in the post-home metagame with a replay from the pre-home metagame. This flawed argument would certainly fall under the "absolute joke" category as well. The irony...

Nothing has changed for the negative for Dugtrio from pre-home to post-home. If anything there's a larger list of things Dugtrio can beat now, on top of what it was already beating. It's not even like anything already in the game that was losing to Duggy got/regained anything to beat it with since then.

 

[toinha]

Well, first time i got reqs in a suspect test (thanks GOD, AFTER FALLING 81.9% A HUNDRED TIMES), Ban Arena Trap.

In my opnion Arena Trap is a banworthy and broken ability. well, though it would be banned really soon tbh, but it didn't happened (guess the main reason for that is the meta change with the Pokemon Home.) Sash dug is a really usefull tool in balance oriented teams, u can easily pressure ur opponent and break his main wallbreaker to win the game easily (example: Kyruem vs Dugtrio, guess everyone had already passed through this situation). Band dugtrio is still strong too, but its usage has fallen down a lot. I'd still seen Scarf Dug to kill zeraora too, but this one is very uncommon (and bad imo). as Lilburr said, his usage on ladder isn't that high, but his high usage at tournaments like SPL proves that he's a usefull and strong team mate in a lot of teams.

 

[kausb]

That's the inherent problem. Why run shed shell when I can run leftovers or shuca berry or choice specs? It's not exactly fair to just say "hey run shed shell on your toxtricity because you're afraid of dugtrio" when the fact is it could be running something else like specs.

There are uncountable instances in pokemon's history where items that are weaker in a vacuum are chosen to beat certain popular threats. If we could just gauge everything by power level in a vacuum we wouldn't even need a meta and we could just pick the 6 best mons with the best items in a vacuum and do all the strategy in match with no metagaming. But pokemon has never been like that.

I don't really think losing an item to play around dug is an meta-breaking unfair advantage. The more people that play around dugtrio, the less he will appear. The less he appears, the more effective he'll be. The more effective is the more he will rise in usage. It is a self-regulating cycle that can't go out of control because the answers are so damning.

The idea that even bad match-ups have a chance of winning but arena trap is 100% is also a little disingenuous. You can play switch mind-games and you might outplay your opponent. True one bad read can nix a pokemon but that isn't a special case of dugtrio, there are plenty of times one bad switch read makes a pokemon dead. None of these things seems specific to arena trap they just feel worse.

TBH I am not all against banning arena trap because it feels bad but that should be the transparent reason. Even if arena trap isn't game breaking, if the game is more fun without it why not ban it. I'm just saying in my opinion it doesn't seem like it breaks OU from a power-level perspective.

edit: I think people are not considering that this is for a ladder environment not a tournament environment. One of the major selling points of competitive laddering is meta reads. You WILL encounter teams that, when actually piloted correctly, simply beat yours. You have to consider match up spreads and what match ups you are forgoing to be better at others. That doesn't make a game noncompetitive or unbalanced.

In fact if I considered a tournament only environment I would agree that arena trap is unhealthy and better gone than in.

 

[zbr]

I think people are not considering that this is for a ladder environment not a tournament environment. One of the major selling points of competitive laddering is meta reads. You WILL encounter teams that, when actually piloted correctly, simply beat yours. You have to consider match up spreads and what match ups you are forgoing to be better at others. That doesn't make a game noncompetitive or unbalanced.

In fact if I considered a tournament only environment I would agree that arena trap is unhealthy and better gone than in.

I think you should look through the past few pages and see what everyone on the pro ban side wrote. Esp the parts about mind games and information that is unfairly obtained by just utilizing dug. Furthermore, a ban on OU implicates all factors of competitive smogon. Ladder environment and Tour based environment are all affected.

 

[maroon]