Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Iron Man

[Gravelmouse]

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 270-318 (64.2 - 75.7%)

Is Hippowdon a check if it switches in, and then dies on the next turn leaving Melmetal untouched? If running speed on Hippowdon becomes the recommended set.. I would love to see the eventual smogon analysis page lol

I agree with him when he says you need to review your terminology, a check is quite literally, by definition, something that doesnt switch hard in, that is what a COUNTER is, hippo does meet the definition of a check in a pinch, because it can survive any hit and threaten back with a sizable amount of damage if the melmetal has been chipped. https://www.smogon.com/smog/issue32/checks-and-counters

 

[Martin]

I think both sides of this argument have provided pretty valid points. While I always have been skeptical towards the "good players can play around it = not broken" mentality (mostly bc it misses the point), I feel that in my time using/playing against Melmetal I've never really felt like it's overwhelming for a lot of very standard defensive cores. After all, Rocky Helmet is stupidly good anyway—it's not an unattractive adaptation by any stretch, and it kinda reminds me of when I'd plug Helmet onto Static users back in ORAS to BTFO Talonflame and U-turn users (GANG GANG)—and there are lots of Pokemon that can easily pressure it defensively, especially with support from Clefable. The low speed, meh SpD, and lack of priority makes it very vulnerable if you can achieve an advantage state versus it, and the fact that its best set depends on being locked to deal the absurd damage that it does means that netting a KO with it can often cause headaches. For lack of a better description, Melmetal is a hard Pokemon to use well, and that's a big part of what balances it.

From what I've gathered over the past few days, it's pretty common for Melmetal to fall when faced with heavy residual pressure. Failing that, it's often in a position where it has to play guessing games with Will-O-Wisp/Overheat/VoltTurn from stuff like Rotom (made easier with the help of Teleport if you misplay around Clefable). Wisped Melmetal is genuinely one of the biggest pieces of dead weight I've come across in a long time, as its only real utility comes from the offensive presence that it loses when burned. There are probably people who'd argue that those guessing games being forced onto some builds in the first place is unhealthy and reduces player autonomy, but given that they're pretty weighted in favor of the non-Melmetal user anyway, I don't think the guessing is outside of Pokemon's normal gameplay loop anyway (or at least the loop that's been enforced since the beginning of generation 7).

Speaking tangientially (please don't treat this like a discussion point, because it isn't—I just wanted to state my weird observation to satisfy my own need to type), I think a lot of the thread's earlier arguments line up pretty well with similar ones for Mega Mawile last generation. The two obvious differences between the two come from Mawile's access to priority and Melmetal's far superior bulk, and while they are largely pretty comparable outside of that, I'm in the ban camp for gen 7 M-Mawile but lean towards no ban on Melmetal—at least with the metagame in its current state. Maybe that's because of Melmetal being more situational or guess-reliant—the lack of priority and dependence on somewhat constrictive sets is testimony to just how many leagues Mega Mawile is above Melmetal when breaking both offense and defense. But I'm getting side-tracked, so I'll stop there—once again, please don't respond to this rambling.

I probably won't be voting, as I'm not invested enough to play more than I need/want to, but if I did I'd vote unban without much hesitation. This mon's not really incomparable to a lot of the wallbreakers in the format, and while I could see the argument that this may be a symptom of an unhealthy accepted power level, as it stands I feel that balance and BO (the two archetypes that best indicate metagame health) have the tools they need to take it on in their current state, and I expect that as unhealthy presences (mostly Dracovish) get removed one by one, more teams will likely have more room to fit more conventional counterplay to Melmetal into their ranks—and if/when stuff like Magnezone/Garchomp (e.g.) gets introduced with Isle of Armour, we will likely see further shifts in how teams deal with conventional Melmetal variants.

I agree with him when he says you need to review your terminology, a check is quite literally, by definition, something that doesnt switch hard in, that is what a COUNTER is, hippo does meet the definition of a check in a pinch, because it can survive any hit and threaten back with a sizable amount of damage if the melmetal has been chipped. https://www.smogon.com/smog/issue32/checks-and-counters

I know it’s a weird+largely semantic thing to bring up here (I like talking semantics; plz don't judge), and I'm not trying to detract from your point bc in this instance you are right that they misunderstood the difference between a check and a counter in their argument, but I’d be very careful linking old Smog articles to back up your points. The article you have linked is somewhat outdated due to being written at a time where power levels were much lower, and I'd argue the definitions in that article were too shallow in the first place—I can't call something a reliable dedicated check in good faith if there is a moderate or greater risk of being haxed past, and even setting that aside they speak too much in terms of absolutes+vacuums to really be fit for purpose. If I were to re-define them in 2020, it would probably look a lot more like this:

Hide

Hard counter: Can switch in repeatedly at a moderate health levels (read: 50%+) and has reliable healing (either of its own or courtesy of a cleric). Can remove the target faster than the target can remove it or can otherwise cripple it to the point of being dead weight.

Counter: Can switch in repeatedly provided it is healthy (read: 70%+) and has reliable healing (either of its own or courtesy of a cleric). Can remove the target faster than the target can remove it or can otherwise cripple it to the point of being dead weight.

Soft Counter: Can switch in at max/near-max health and has reliable healing (either of its own or courtesy of a cleric). Can remove the target faster/as fast as the target can remove it or can otherwise cripple it to the point of being dead weight.

Hard Defensive Check: Can switch in when healthy and can do so repeatedly with its own/a cleric's reliable. Can not remove the target faster than the target can remove it without being given a free switch, but can take hits comfortably (read: 3-4HKO) and threatens to heavily cripple the target without appropriate counterplay. Can not be defeated with hax outside of exceptional circumstances or extortionate prior setup (read: combination of paralysis+flinching+confusion/critical or similar).

Hard Offensive Check: Can switch in at max/near-max health and can always remove the target substantially faster than the target can remove it. Not at all prone to hax outside of external circumstance (read: paralyzed by another Pokemon). Usually not appropriate as a dedicated response outside of heavily offensive builds or extreme pinches.

Defensive Check: Can switch in at max/near-max health and may be able do so a few times, and has reliable recovery/clerical support to do so repeatedly. Can not remove the target faster than the target can remove it without being given a free switch. Moderately prone to hax, but passable as dedicated response in a pinch.

Offensive Check: Can always remove the target substantially faster than the target can remove it if given a free switch in while at moderate health (read: 50%+). Not appropriate as a dedicated response outside of offensive builds.

Soft Defensive Check: Requires a free switch-in versus some (read: not all) viable coverage options, but can comfortably take a hit and/or residually pressure it when given one. Can do so repeatedly with reliable recovery or clerical support. Not appropriate as a dedicated response.

Soft Offensive Check: Can only remove the target substantially faster than the target can remove it if given a free switch when healthy (read: 75%+). Never appropriate as a dedicated response.

These can probably be drastically improved over—I wrote them in about 20 minutes without much proof-reading and with no direct external input, but based on my time playing+conversations I've had with other players over the past few years, these are closer to what I think people really mean in competent discussion. I only responded to this post bc talking about semantics isn't smth that I feel like I have many channels for—please don't mind me too much.

 

[Avira]

From what I've gathered over the past few days, it's pretty common for Melmetal to fall when faced with heavy residual pressure. Failing that, it's often in a position where it has to play guessing games with Will-O-Wisp/Overheat/VoltTurn from stuff like Rotom (made easier with the help of Teleport if you misplay around Clefable). Wisped Melmetal is genuinely one of the biggest pieces of dead weight I've come across in a long time, as its only real utility comes from the offensive presence that it loses when burned. There are probably people who'd argue that those guessing games being forced onto some builds in the first place is unhealthy and reduces player autonomy, but given that they're pretty weighted in favor of the non-Melmetal user anyway, I don't think the guessing is outside of Pokemon's normal gameplay loop anyway (or at least the loop that's been enforced since the beginning of generation 7).

Why would a Melmetal be getting Wisped unless the Melmetal user is braindead? It has no business staying in against Rotom-Heat since that can potentially OHKO it. This part of your post really stuck out as if you think this is how a battle against a Melmetal goes, then that's a problem. If the quality of play on the ladder is so bad that you're seeing these brainless plays behind them, then maybe the council should go back to making suspect ladders, which would improve the quality of the test since it would filter out most of the players who think Melmetal can tank literally anything and everything.

 

[Is Dracovish Banned Yet?]

I agree with him when he says you need to review your terminology, a check is quite literally, by definition, something that doesnt switch hard in, that is what a COUNTER is, hippo does meet the definition of a check in a pinch, because it can survive any hit and threaten back with a sizable amount of damage if the melmetal has been chipped. https://www.smogon.com/smog/issue32/checks-and-counters

Thanks for linking that, if we could all agree on what the right definitions are that would be helpful for future suspect threads. But it literally disproves your point? If we assume a free switch for Hippo, aka a true one on one:

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 270-318 (64.2 - 75.7%)

There is a 51% chance to flinch, and then Hippo is dead. In the 49% chance that Hippo does not flinch, earthquake does:

0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 130 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 174-206 (39.2 - 46.5%). And then Melmetal will kill it.

In summary, if we assume a free switch, there is 51% chance hippo dead without attacking back, 49% chance hippo does ~40% back to Melmetal and then dying, so a 100% of hippo dying and Melmetal living. Remember this assumes a free switch.

With helmet, it gets closer. 51% chance hippo is dead but Melmetal takes 50% damage to helmet, 49% chance hippo does 40% back to Melmetal and then dies so 90% damage including helmet chip, and again a 100% chance hippo loses one on one.

So based on that definition, Hippo is definitively neither a check nor a counter. Definition below:

"Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax"

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

Hippowdon can act as an emergency check to Melmetal if other options in your team have fainted; keep in mind that Hippowdon has to be at Full Health in order to act as such and will be crippled for the remainder of the match.

I hope that’s as accurate as it gets. A side note, though, that this situation is oddly common in previous Ubers metagames. Not meant to be a side taking statement, just noting it.

Anyways, this thread has been an interesting read of good arguments on both sides. I think the one that irks me, though, is the idea of having Melmetal in the tier to handle Clefable, which is being clamored as “broken” itself by a few users. If that were the case, moving Melmetal back down in order to check it and wreck it is not an argument to have it move down, as I’ve mentioned before (and I’ve said this since the Gen 6 meta many times, especially during Aegislash’s suspects), we can’t bring other potentially broken Pokémon to check other potentially broken Pokémon; if they are perceived as such, they will be handled in the future. If we are to agree that Clefable or any other example (some would call it on Dracovish) is balanced and healthy, fine, but we have to make the argument that these targets are healthy or unhealthy, what Melmetal would bring, and why this move would either be beneficial or detrimental to this metagame; for the most part, I think each side has stayed somewhat consistent with how they present this.

Personally, I’ve mostly been on neither side of this and I don’t have the time to get reqs, sadly (the irl crisis has taken its mental toll on me as is), but I await the final vote and what the meta turns into afterwards.

Edit: Basically what Finch said. Should’ve worded my post a bit better, I just worry about treading the same waters throughout many suspect tests.

 

[Finchinator]

Nobody who is competent is arguing that we should free Melmetal solely to check Clefable. If we are to unban Melmetal, it will be because Melmetal is not broken. If Clefable or anything else in the tier is broken, with or without Melmetal being in the equation, then it should be banned in the near future. Nobody should be trying to advocate for a broken-checks-broken dynamic.

With this said, I personally believe that Melmetal is not broken, so I will be voting to unban it for the reasons I stated in my last post. This has nothing to do with exploiting Clefable; I think Clefable is still similarly good in the Melmetal metagame actually. The cause-and-effect relationship there has been overstated on countless occasions. Clefable having Protect to scout for Choice Band Melmetal moves actually goes a long way towards finding counterplay in a pinch.

Finally, @ the other above posts: Hippowdon has Rocky Helmet, which is going to be triggered four times for Melmetal to kill it if Choice Band. Couple this with potential Earthquake damage and it is plenty. Nobody is saying it is a counter though; Seismitoad, Corviknight, Rotom-Heat, and others are much better answers to it (be it as checks or counters depending on the set and situation). Hippowdon can go a long way towards keeping it in check, however. This argument has been going back-and-forth for far too long, so let's drop this point from here on out, thanks.

 

[Martin]

Why would a Melmetal be getting Wisped unless the Melmetal user is braindead? It has no business staying in against Rotom-Heat since that can potentially OHKO it. This part of your post really stuck out as if you think this is how a battle against a Melmetal goes, then that's a problem. If the quality of play on the ladder is so bad that you're seeing these brainless plays behind them, then maybe the council should go back to making suspect ladders, which would improve the quality of the test since it would filter out most of the players who think Melmetal can tank literally anything and everything.

This is a fair response. Like I said in my post, it’s not “common” by any stretch (note my use of “not uncommon” to highlight this—stupid word structure, but I cba to find a better way to say the same thing); it is weighted in favour of the Rotom player, who has commital and non-commital options open to them as opposed to Mel’s purely committal options, and you’re right that in probably 14/15 isolated instances they wouldn’t. I can usually tell which players are going to play Mel like a moron and which I’m going to have to condition within the first few turns of a game, and I only factored those games in to my statement—this is usually around a 70:30 sensible:moron split at the level I can be arsed to play at.

However, to say that Melmetal would never stay in in a situation like this is short-sighted at best—you wouldn’t stay in unless you thought they were going to Volt Switch+you needed to take risks, but if they do Volt and you stay in you then have momentum because your opponent needs to find something that can eat a DIB. Obviously I’m dumbing down the thought processes more than someone with more autonomy than a toddler would when playing, as they’d take things like game state and optimal plays for both players into account, but it’s when players do take risks like this that you can call them out and shut Melmetal down completely with either a committal Overheat or, more often outside of endgame scenarios/if you’re using Wash or whatever, a less committal Will-o-Wisp—especially if you’re up on mons, you have been conditioning them to think you’ll always Volt vs Mel, and/or the Melmetal player is stuck in a disadvantage vortex.

This is when players are more prone to play recklessly (because that’s the only route they have to turn the game around—or at least the only one they see through the red haze brought on by being in heavy disadvantage), and it is an advantage state that I find myself exploiting a decent amount (1/4-1/5 winning games vs ppl who don’t play like complete coconuts). Obviously only counting teams I used which don’t opt for the residual pressure+check stacking approach to dealing with Melmetal—this is irrefutably more consistent unless you really want to use a build that you can’t fit common Helmet users onto easily, and even then I wouldn’t ever use it as my only form of Mel counter-play.

Just the fact that you can Helmet it to death without ever really breaking a sweat is enough on its own for me to be skeptical of whether it’s actually broken; the only reason I mentioned Wisp as prominently as I did was bc other ppl have beaten the Helmet/check stacking thing to death at this point and because I wasn’t sure if I was an outlier or if other players were playing around Mel like I’ve been. Wisp isn’t even one of my primary reasons for being pro unban so much as an observation I’d made when playing more drawn-out Mel games.

 

[Deleted User 464209]

Why everyone suddenly excited at the prospect of running 1+ Rocky helmet on every team, when you lose you minds over having to put shed shell on anything?

 

[Hematite]

Why everyone suddenly excited at the prospect of running 1+ Rocky helmet on every team, when you lose you minds over having to put shed shell on anything?

The obvious difference in this case is that it only takes one Pokémon with Rocky Helmet on the entire team to punish Melmetal, but just about every Pokémon that doesn't run Shed Shell or have a Ground immunity can still be eliminated by Dugtrio.
Also, Rocky Helmet actually does something against opponents that aren't Melmetal (and several people have even called it a good item in general), while Shed Shell is dead weight and arguably detrimental against every team that doesn't have Dugtrio.
They're not even remotely comparable.

 

[Finchinator]

Why everyone suddenly excited at the prospect of running 1+ Rocky helmet on every team, when you lose you minds over having to put shed shell on anything?

On top of what was said before, RH was used commonly on Hippowdon and sometimes on Ferrothorn before this. Corviknight is the only new user of it and it answers Melmetal, barring hax, regardless — RH chip just accelerated the process while also helping against other physical attackers.

Yes, the metagame does have to adapt to Melmetal a bit, but most of these adaptations are minor and not comparable to prior, unreasonable shifts to controversial Pokemon. Adding any good Pokemon to the tier will lead to a similar result in some capacity. We saw numerous similar shifts when Pokemon got added to the metagame after the release of Pokemon Home.

 

[Tapeworm]

When we decided to retest Melmetal, I initially assumed it would be banned with an overwhelming majority; while the retest was not necessarily a throwaway, it was done more so as an act of due diligence than as a calculated tiering decision.

There were numerous potential suspects brought to our attention in recent weeks such as Kyurem, Dracovish, and Teleport Clefable, but we were not ready to act on any of these at this point in time. This coupled with our consistent belief that we should give Melmetal a fair test in the metagame, seeing as it was only in the tier for a day (a hectic, post-home release day, too), led to this being the perfect opportunity to give it a retest.

I was pretty quick to dismiss this retest as an easy ban vote initially after seeing some crazy damage calcs like Choice Band Double Iron Bash having a shot to kill full health Excadrill, Toxtricity, Crawdaunt, and Cinderace despite the resistance; this level of strength on something so physically sturdy surely could not be balanced, right?

Then, I saw some earlier posts in this thread such as Leo's post here and I decided to give Melmetal a fair shot before ultimately deciding on my vote. Even at this point, I was still confident that I would vote ban, but I built some teams with various sets and I laddered to reqs (and then well beyond that) with all of them and facing many opposing Melmetal until I felt that I had a sufficient grasp on Melmetal and the metagame surrounding it. After all of this, I changed my mind: I will be voting to unban Melmetal and this post will outline why.

I tried out four Melmetal sets, but only two of them are really worth highlight here due to popularity and effectiveness. The four sets are Choice Band, Acid Armor + Body Press, Protective Pads attacker, and Toxic + Leftovers. The former two sets are the most common, with Choice Band being the most controversial of the bunch, but the latter two definitely have niche. I am going to go through each set, explaining how it is used, how effective I feel it is in the context of the metagame, and showcasing some of my personal experiences with it (you can find almost all of my battles under "OUTJosh" as I saved replays for every battle and I also uploaded videos of all of my laddering, which goes well beyond the 40 games for reqs). Then, I will draw some final conclusions at the end of my post.

Choice Band Melmetal

@ Choice Band
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 136 SpD / 120 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Superpower
- Earthquake
- Thunder Punch

Calcs and set information

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 136 SpD Melmetal: 348-410 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 0 HP / 136 SpD Melmetal: 344-408 (83.6 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 SpA Life Orb Clefable Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 136 SpD Melmetal: 286-338 (69.5 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 136 SpD Melmetal: 352-416 (85.6 - 101.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 136 SpD Melmetal: 294-346 (71.5 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 314-372 (76.3 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Speed for Hippowdon. Earthquake is for a lot of midgrounds and even more damage against Toxapex and Aegislash, which I prefer over Rock Slide as Superpower clocks Rotom-Heat and Thunder Punch hits most flying types.

Team with CB Melmetal

Choice Band Melmetal is arguably the best set; it deals out lots of damage with plenty of coverage to hit common resists as well. The main issues are that it is quite prediction reliant. Double Iron Bash is limited to 8 PP in a metagame with a common Pressure user and plenty of Protect (or Baneful Bunker); couple this with Rocky Helmet or Iron Barbs being triggered twice upon usage and you get a pretty limited Pokemon. Choice Band Melmetal has unmatched upside, almost assuring kills if it gets off unresisted Double Iron Bashes and getting consistent 2HKOs with super effective coverage moves. I understand why someone would pencil it in as banworthy due to the sheet strength it possesses, but I think that in practice it is far less consistent and oftentimes kept in check by already common Pokemon and cores. Let's go through some of my games with it so I can explain this thought process a bit more.

Games with Choice Band Melmetal and how it did:

CB Melmetal vs opposing CB Melmetal on Rain

Both Melmetals were kept in check for a majority of the game. Finally, Thunder Wave slowing down an offensive Clefable gave me an opportunity to use mine briefly to revenge kill Clefable, but my opponent's Melmetal was kept in check easily by Corviknight + Protect Clefable despite losing my Seismitoad prematurely. I think this highlights how pretty common cores can keep a choice locked Melmetal in check despite the strength of boosted Double Iron Bash and the coverage possibilities.

CB Melmetal vs Hyper Offense

One of the big things about Melmetal being added to the tier is that it is supposed to invalidate hyper offense due to the bulk and ability to KO common win conditions used on these teams. The defensive Acid Armor set, which we will get to later, is able to do that, but the Choice Band set is a lot more limited as it not only locks into a move, potentially giving things set-up opportunities, but it also loses a lot of physical bulk, which lets boosted Pokemon like Zeraora, Bisharp, Aegislash, or Excadrill take it out with little-to-no chip. In this game, a +1 Zeraora is able to take it out when I was hoping to tank a hit and take out the Zeraora. Choice Band Melmetal should usually be able to carry its weight against these teams regardless, but I do not view it as a full stop or counter to them like the other set I alluded to, which is limiting.

CB Melmetal vs Sand Offense

Melmetal makes a lot of progress in the early game due to the opponent giving it free turns and some timely positioning, which is oftentimes doable. The sheer power of being able to OHKO a bulky Conkeldurr is quite impressive and opened up the game as well, but the team faced here seems pretty unprepared for a lot of the metagame defensively.

CB Melmetal vs HippoCorv balance

If my opponent did not misplay pretty badly by going Hippowdon, then Melmetal would have done very little in this game due to the built-in longevity of this team coupled with residual damage from Rocky Helmet, the chip it takes to switch in, and various Protect users or pivots. Thankfully, he went to Hippowdon despite a faster Corviknight being at full, but even this sequence led to me essentially trading with Hippowdon due to Rocky Helmet damage being massive. It's also worth noting that a lot of these teams manage to fit in Ferrothorn or Rotom-Heat, which also slow the progress of Melmetal quite a bit; this team instead had a Hatterene, which opened the game up even more for Melmetal. Ultimately, my point is that Choice Band Melmetal tends to struggle against the most common types of balance right now due to there being lots of natural checks and plenty of ways to take advantage of it being Choice Banded.

CB Melmetal vs Sand Bulky-Offense (really good game, btw)

The team I am facing here is also sort of standard, but it plays a bit more faster pace than the balances I discussed last game. Melmetal was able to get in a few times and dish out damage, but between early Knock Off Toxapex and a sturdy Hippowdon, it was only able to make some progress -- a lot of the progress was Regenerated off of Toxapex without much hesitation. This progress was also only possible due to numerous Wishes being passed to Melmetal, greatly slowing the chances of making progress through other means. I think this shows that Melmetal will be one of the more important and common Pokemon in the metagame if it stays, but it also is not the easiest to use this set as it requires prediction and sometimes can be hard stopped no matter what you do (thanks to Rocky Helmet, Protect, Corviknight, etc.). Against teams not super prepared for it, which are not too common due to the depth of common checks to it, it will be able to make progress, but it still has to stay healthy due to it being relatively slow and because of this it will require Wish support, which is the norm in this metagame anyway so that's no big deal. However, I do not think this really screams "broken" to me given how mixed the results were and how much counterplay I identify within the metagame, even if some is situational.

more games I uploaded

Good teammates for CB Melmetal:

& : Both of these appreciate Melmetal putting a strain on common Ground types like Seismitoad and Hippowdon; Zeraora also appreciates the damage done onto Ferrothorn in order to put it into Close Combat range in order to avoid taking a Body Press or Knock Off. In addition, both of these Pokemon take advantage of Corviknight, which Melmetal appreciates. If released into the tier officially, I can see Melmetal being paired with them often. With this said, I do not find this synergy to be overly oppressive at all.

: This should go for most offensive Pokemon in the tier as they appreciate the pivot, but this is especially the case for Melmetal as they compliment each other quite well. First off, Melmetal is constantly taking physical hits that leave it low, so getting a Wish passed from a Teleport is great. Top this off with Clefable being specially defensive more often than not, letting it sponge the special hits Melmetal cannot, and you get an even better dynamic between the two. This is not all, however. Clefable tends to lure in Steel types that Melmetal can feast on with a boosted Superpower or Earthquake if need be. In the replays above, you saw a lot of this happening as well as passing numerous Wishes to Melmetal. I think this combination is honestly what could push some people over the edge to it being banworthy, but I think there is still a lot of counterplay considering how common Corviknight, Rotom-Heat, and Whirlwind Hippowdon are right now. This is not even saying they are the only counterplay right now, but they all are very common regardless and do the trick, which is important.

: This one is a bit more team specific than the ones above, but I find Hydreigon fitting on to most of my Choice Band Melmetal builds. The Choice Scarf set always baits in things that are crushed by it, making an easy U-turn give Melmetal openings. The Choice Scarf set can also fit Thunder Wave in the fourth slot, which could potentially open things up for Melmetal in the long haul as well. In addition, the Nasty Plot set pretty much feasts on all of the normal checks and counters to Melmetal, especially if it is able to fit Flamethrower. That is more basic synergy than the ones listed above, but I still love pairing them to create a potent offensive backbone to balance teams.

In conclusion, I view Choice Band Melmetal as really good. It is able to threaten entire teams a lot of the time, but I do not think it is broken. There are a number of natural checks to it (Corviknight and Rotom-Heat) coupled with gameflow preventing it from making progress due to prediction reliance, PP limitations on Double Iron Bash, consistent chip, Protect stopping it almost entirely, and it being quite slow. Melmetal is going to be one of the better Pokemon in the metagame, probably falling into the A+ tier in viability rankings if dropped, and the root of that viability can be found from this set, but I do not think that it is enough to push it over the edge for me.

---

Acid Armor + Body Press Melmetal

@ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Impish Nature
- Substitute
- Double Iron Bash
- Body Press
- Acid Armor

Calcs and set information

252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Melmetal: 188-224 (39.7 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Zeraora Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Melmetal: 198-234 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Melmetal: 380-450 (80.3 - 95.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Melmetal: 302-356 (63.8 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Melmetal: 326-386 (68.9 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Melmetal: 90-110 (19 - 23.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Melmetal: 228-268 (48.2 - 56.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Speed is just creep. It really likes paralysis support and something to remove Toxapex, cripple Rotom-Heat, and take care of Bulk Up Corviknight among other things.

Team with Acid Armor + Body Press Melmetal

Acid Armor + Body Press Melmetal was seen as perhaps the most broken set from the initial theorymon before Home was released and it did not disappoint initially; people regard Choice Band as more consistent now and this is true, but Acid Armor + Body Press has a lot of potential to outright win games against unprepared teams. Toxapex, Rotom-Heat, Earth Power Seismitoad, Bulk Up Corviknight, Whirlwind Hippowdon, Chandelure, Gastrodon, and a small handful of other Pokemon are able to dispose of this set otherwise, but otherwise teams are pretty much forced to rely on their choice of strong special attacker to break it, if they can get it in safely. I would say that is a sufficient pool of Pokemon, especially when you couple in general pressure from the special side, but against unprepared teams, this set truly is one of the most unforgiving things in the entire metagame. I used a team that was not the most serious with this set, featuring both Clefable and Clefairy, but it went 38-2 on the ladder and it was paired with Block Spite Toxapex to remove opposing Toxapex and some specific special attackers that were problematic, so I would say it highlighted the set quite well.

Games with Acid Armor + Body Press Melmetal and how it did:

Acid Armor + Body Press Melmetal vs Webs Offense, vs Veil Offense Veil 2

As I said before, this is the set that truly invalidates physically oriented hyper offense. The sheer bulk coupled with a boosted Body Press and Double Iron Bash is far too much for them to take care of. Oftentimes, it outright sweeps these teams if they do not have a Nasty Plot Rotom or some type of lure, which they tend to lack (perhaps they will adapt). I would say that if you are going to argue this set is broken, it would be on this basis as it struggles against other archetypes relatively -- it is still a good Pokemon and set of course, but it does not have the same level of sweeping success as it does against these type of heavy offenses.

Acid Armor + Body Press Melmetal vs Rotom-Heat Bulky Offense

Melmetal did not do a ton here besides pressure a Zeraora out, which it did after getting chip that it should not have if the opponent properly switched to Rotom-Heat to begin with. Regardless, it was not able to get in much besides after Mandibuzz got flinched out, which led to it taking a strong Earthquake in return for taking out Excadrill. It was ok, but really just ok. It is never able to sweep these teams and really should just be limited to chip if they play their Rotom properly. I think Melmetal that are not Choice Banded tend to struggle against more fast / high tempo teams if they are not HO as with Choice Band it can at least nuke something whenever it gets in, but it lacks the OHKO/2HKO prowess and it is never getting enough of an opening to sweep unless they are entirely unprepared.

Acid Armor + Body Press Melmetal vs balance, 2

Melmetal did not do a ton in the first one because he had Seismitoad and Rotom-Heat. For some reason, he let me trade a lot of health for a kill on Kyurem, but otherwise it was basically only there to pivot into Clefable and try to take advantage of the occasional free turn. In the second one, it did not even need to get an attack off for me to win, but he also had Jellicent, which is a pretty hard counter to this set. I feel like this Melmetal set runs into a lot of match-ups like this, which is cause for concern in my eyes.

more games I uploaded

Good teammates for Acid Armor + Body Press Melmetal:

: Block Toxapex is able to trap other Toxapex, which opens up the game for this Melmetal to have a chance at sweeping when facing opposing Toxapex. I used this core on the ladder and it worked wonders, but obviously it is a bit cheesy -- there are more consistent exploits out there for sure, but I saw a few others using it on the ladder yesterday, so I guess it is gaining some traction.

(): Seismitoad is able to get up Stealth Rocks and force Knocks or burns with Scald, all of which help open things up against balance for Melmetal. This basic chip and crippling can go a long way to finding sequence where it can come in and set up easier than otherwise. Kommo-O can do a similar job with Taunt to prevent things from healing up or Toxic to induce status, but it is worse against Toxapex, so it gets a bit less of a mention.

: Like last set, you are being chipped down and require Wish support pretty frequently. Unlike last set, you take less damage from attacks due to the bulk, but you are clicking Substitute pretty often, so that will cost you some health even with Leftovers.

In conclusion, I view Acid Armor + Body Press Melmetal as a good potential win condition with enough effectiveness defensively to give it consistent usage, but it is not able to win many games besides against unprepared balances and physically oriented hyper offense, which just folds to it most of the time. I do not think this makes it broken at all as there are still a ton of viable checks and counters to the set outright and playtyles are adaptable; specific combinations of Pokemon falling to a new Pokemon do not necessarily mean that Pokemon is broken is what I am trying to say here. I do believe that this set is good and should see usage closer to the Choice Band set, but it can be shut down in a handful of match-ups, which makes it similar to a lot of other less consistent options in the tier in some ways. What makes it better overall is that it still has a ton of walling prowess to compensate for games it cannot sweep (not to mention Double Iron Bash forces switches and does decent chunks without investment anyway). With all of this said, I do not view this set as broken whatsoever.

---

The two other sets I used are far less common in general and honestly nowhere near as noteworthy as the other two, so I will just briefly go over them.

@ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 136 SpD / 120 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Thunder Punch
- Toxic
- Protect

Team with Protect + Toxic Melmetal | Upload with Protect + Toxic Melmetal

The main idea behind this set is that you can lure in a number of bulky Water or Ground types not named Toxapex and wear them out with Toxic over time so that you can eventually beat them with your attacks. This also helps chip Rotom-Heat, which can come in handy in longer games. Corviknight is still quite annoying for this set, however, and some Steel types besides it also can have a field day if played well. I like the set on specific teams with Pokemon like Togekiss to capitalize on a crippled Rotom-Heat or Terrakion to capitalize on a crippled Hippowdon, but the set itself is nowhere near banworthy and honestly only worth using with pretty specific partners such as the aforementioned ones. Thunder Punch can become Superpower if you are not worried about Toxapex at all, but I prefer this and just naturally crippling Ferrothorn.

@ Protective Pads
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 240 Atk / 136 SpD / 132 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Thunder Punch
- Superpower
- Thunder Wave

Team with Protective Pads Melmetal | Upload with Protective Pads Melmetal

Eo Ut Mortus came up with this idea when someone mentioned that Double Iron Bash was leading to Melmetal taking far too much damage in recoil against Rocky Helmet or Iron Barbs Pokemon; Protective Pads is able to negate this damage entirely, letting Melmetal attack freely. The thing is that you now lose Leftovers in other match-ups, you still lack the power of Choice Band, and you do not have the sweeping prowess of the Acid Armor + Body Press variants. Honestly, there is potential here and I quite liked playing this set as it had some all-out-attacking capabilities without being locked into a single move, but PP and natural checks/counters to the other sets still made making consistent progress with it a struggle. If Melmetal stays, this set will surely be viable, but I do not consider it remotely broken or even worth including in this discussion beyond mentioning that it is viable.

---

After laddering and building a lot with Melmetal and in the Melmetal metagame, I do not believe Melmetal is broken. It is a very good Pokemon with a lot of strength and potential for utility, but there are too many limitations to it that stop it from being a consistent problem. The metagame has a lot of natural checks and counters to it, even if you are looking at the Choice Band set. Melmetal is a very unique Pokemon, unlike anything else that OU has seen this generation and perhaps in prior generations, but I do not view it as too much for the tier as there is ample offensive and defensive counterplay.

I implore everyone who takes interest in OU to ladder for voting reqs over the course of this week with it and see if you agree or disagree -- do not just take my word for it if you can get a firsthand perspective on the matter; this vote is not going to be nearly as lopsided as people imagine and it could go a long way towards the outlook of SS OU for years to come, so now is the best time to participate in a suspect test (especially since I know most of you do not have a ton going on during this period). With this said, I will be using my vote to unban Melmetal and I hope people who wrote it off initially see this and give it some thought/play some games to consider these points.

I don't understand how you can openly say that a Pokemon with the ability to invalidate a playstyle is not broken. You've already explained well enough how Acid Armour + Body Press sets can steamroll offensive teams, 'perhaps they will adapt' is not a basis to dismiss this issue. I'll also make the point of how you downplayed the effectiveness of Banded Melm and how it can punish such teams also under the right conditions, it can outright die when facing a sufficiently set-up mon but the damage it can do when it gets a free switch-in against an unboosted mon is virtually 1 for 1 at least, incredibly few things can OHKO unboosted yet they suffer monumental damage in exchange.

Defensive Calcs - Melm vs unboosted HO staples

252 Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 158-186 (38.4 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 182-216 (44.2 - 52.5%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 343-406 (83.4 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 322-382 (78.3 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 176-208 (42.8 - 50.6%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 108-127 (26.2 - 30.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (Knock Off does a little more as a one-off but that allows Melm to switch up moves and changes the whole situation on both sides, so for the sake of consistency this is the most powerful standard move that keeps the Banded Melm DIB spam point going.)

252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 374-439 (90.9 - 106.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 224-264 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 136 SpD Melmetal: 231-274 (56.2 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Hawlucha Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 252-296 (61.3 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Kommo-o Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 136 SpD Melmetal: 194-230 (47.2 - 55.9%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Kommo-o Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 162-192 (39.4 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Zeraora Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 226-268 (54.9 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 136 SpD Melmetal: 308-364 (74.9 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Togekiss Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 136 SpD Melmetal: 220-260 (53.5 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

8 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 0 HP / 136 SpD Melmetal: 348-410 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 136 SpD Melmetal: 270-320 (65.6 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 136 SpD Melmetal: 294-346 (71.5 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 204-242 (49.6 - 58.8%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Necrozma Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 136 SpD Melmetal: 264-312 (64.2 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4 SpA Life Orb Dragapult Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 136 SpD Melmetal: 244-289 (59.3 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Offensive Calcs - Melm mindlessly spamming DIB, no advantageous predictions

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 252-296 (76.1 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 1180-1392 (419.9 - 495.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 1000-1180 (277 - 326.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 312-368 (86.4 - 101.9%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Haxorus: 452-534 (154.2 - 182.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 206-244 (76 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 904-1068 (279.8 - 330.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Aegislash-Blade: 356-420 (136.3 - 160.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Hawlucha: 524-620 (176.4 - 208.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kommo-o: 342-404 (117.5 - 138.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 626-740 (239.8 - 283.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 868-1024 (279 - 329.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Heat: 98-116 (32.3 - 38.2%) -- approx. 99% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sigilyph: 500-590 (175.4 - 207%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 456-536 (140.3 - 164.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 228-268 (70.5 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Necrozma: 414-488 (104 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 528-624 (166.5 - 196.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Yes, I'm aware that this is calc-spam crap in a vaccuum, but even still, Melm coming in on an unboosted threat is not an impossible or uncommon situation if you're not playing very aggressively, but it only has to happen once and immediately you're forced into a 1v1 against it and unless this exchange is vs an Exca, Terrakion, Keldeo, Rotom-H, you will lose to it guaranteed, and even among those four, only Terrak and Rotom-H (unless we consider Rock Slide being used) will not be completely maimed after that exchange; if it comes in vs something you need to save then you're likely facing a 2 for 1 exchange against it. This is also entirely using your posted set, not accounting for slower variants with more HP investment which can take even less.
Does this completely invalidate HO? No, I'm not arguing that it does. What I am arguing is how easily it can immediately put the Melm user at a firm advantage to a great extent with very little opportunity cost. With how easily it already fits on existing balance teams without much, if any, compromise and how much use it has against so many different archetypes, it feels somewhat redundant to run anything other than those teams; balance was already so prevalent to begin with but now introducing something else which makes the second most viable playstyle in the gen currently much less viable is not healthy. We're not talking Galarian Darm here, but even though this thing can be checked, even though it doesn't carry most games, it is still broken and it is still overcentralising and it will not have a positive impact in OU overall.

 

[Is Dracovish Banned Yet?]

Here's another consideration. So much of the meta's best counterplay against Melmetal: ferro, corvi, toed, pex (to pivot). You know one thing in common with all of these? They also like to run SpDef variants, which are now going to be... well... challenging.

This is already a meta where you feel forced to run the same pokemon over and over to hold everything together (and even then you will have gaping holes), and now it'll be even more difficult to do that. Can balance survive this if we let the meta develop for another month?

On top of what was said before, RH was used commonly on Hippowdon and sometimes on Ferrothorn before this. Corviknight is the only new user of it and it answers Melmetal, barring hax, regardless — RH chip just accelerated the process while also helping against other physical attackers.

Yes, the metagame does have to adapt to Melmetal a bit, but most of these adaptations are minor and not comparable to prior, unreasonable shifts to controversial Pokemon. Adding any good Pokemon to the tier will lead to a similar result in some capacity. We saw numerous similar shifts when Pokemon got added to the metagame after the release of Pokemon Home.

I don't disagree with you at all. RH is viable and it does work against Melmetal, and it wouldn't be a stretch to say that the meta is adapting by encouraging more RH usage. That's fine, not overcentralization in my book

HOWEVER.

At what point is this a slippery slope?

A. "There are no true counters to this thing" (read: nothing that can safely switch in and beat Melmetal comfortably without being at full health) - traditionally considered broken and where I draw the line

B. "You can play back if you use multiple soft checks and a protect user and contain it" - while no one can switch in every time, you can adapt and beat Melmetal users handily if you are a good player. The bar has been lowered from "sure one pokemon can't counter it, but multiple pokemon together can check/kind of counter it".

C. "Rocky helmet helps out with wearing it down" - this is where we are at now, which is "also run this item, along with multiple pokemon together, ideally also a protect user, and now you will counter it"

Is this a slippery slope? Or a valid argument? I'm not sure, you'll have to decide for yourself. Rocky helmet wears down nearly every physical attacker so this applies to almost anything... the question everyone will need to ask themselves for this suspect test is where do you draw the line? Shed shell nullifies arena trap... but wasn't valid evidently. Now rocky helmet is being used to keep Melmetal in check? Pro un-ban users have to admit this is getting into thin territory

By the way, Mandibuzz with Rocky Helmet is also a check I guess since it will take out 50% of Melmetal's hp!

If we released Zekrom (hypothetical) into OU I would "counter" it with a combination of: Hippowdon, Ferrothorn, and throw a couple rocky helmets on.

Finally, @ the other above posts: Hippowdon has Rocky Helmet, which is going to be triggered four times for Melmetal to kill it if Choice Band. Couple this with potential Earthquake damage and it is plenty. Nobody is saying it is a counter though; Seismitoad, Corviknight, Rotom-Heat, and others are much better answers to it (be it as checks or counters depending on the set and situation). Hippowdon can go a long way towards keeping it in check, however. This argument has been going back-and-forth for far too long, so let's drop this point from here on out, thanks.

Small nit: I think it would often get triggered 3 times, not 4..

 

[Finchinator]

Here's another consideration. So much of the meta's best counterplay against Melmetal: ferro, corvi, toed, pex (to pivot). You know one thing in common with all of these? They also like to run SpDef variants, which are now going to be... well... challenging.

This is just blatant misinformation at this point. Since day 1, Seismitoad has ran almost entirely physically defensive sets (unless you count the lure set with Power Whip). Ferrothorn also runs Impish with near max Physical Defense on any team with it that lacks Toxapex or Seismitoad (and sometimes on those teams it still does, allowing for Toxapex to run Special Defense). Finally, Corviknight ran Specially Defensive sets more often earlier this year to check Flamethrower Clefable, Scarf Hydreigon, and pivot around Dragapult, but recently it has started to run +Defense natures far more often to check Bisharp, Terrakion, Mamoswine, and a few others to the point where it is arguably the most common set. Toxapex has been Physically Defensive from day one this generation -- it sometimes runs some special defense, especially if paired with Ferrothorn for Dracovish, but this is not common.

If you think all of these Pokemon tend to run Specially Defensive sets more than Physically Defensive, then you do not know what you are talking about with regards to SS OU teambuilding and should probably lurk more before posting further.

This is already a meta where you feel forced to run the same pokemon over and over to hold everything together (and even then you will have gaping holes), and now it'll be even more difficult to do that. Can balance survive this if we let the meta develop for another month?

Almost every metagame is like that to some degree; it should be no shock whatsoever that removing a majority of Pokemon would make it even more compressed this generation. I do not see how you can possibly think that the balance archetype, which is a vast majority of non-HO teams right now, will suddenly fall apart. That is just poor speculation to try and prove a point that does not actually exist.

I don't disagree with you at all. RH is viable and it does work against Melmetal, and it wouldn't be a stretch to say that the meta is adapting by encouraging more RH usage. That's fine, not overcentralization in my book

HOWEVER.

At what point is this a slippery slope?

A. "There are no true counters to this thing" (read: nothing that can safely switch in and beat Melmetal comfortably without being at full health) - traditionally considered broken and where I draw the line

B. "You can play back if you use multiple soft checks and a protect user and contain it" - while no one can switch in every time, you can adapt and beat Melmetal users handily if you are a good player. The bar has been lowered from "sure one pokemon can't counter it, but multiple pokemon together can check/kind of counter it".

C. "Rocky helmet helps out with wearing it down" - this is where we are at now, which is "also run this item, along with multiple pokemon together, ideally also a protect user, and now you will counter it"

Is this a slippery slope? Or a valid argument? I'm not sure, you'll have to decide for yourself. Rocky helmet wears down nearly every physical attacker so this applies to almost anything... the question everyone will need to ask themselves for this suspect test is where do you draw the line? Shed shell nullifies arena trap... but wasn't valid evidently. Now rocky helmet is being used to keep Melmetal in check? Pro un-ban users have to admit this is getting into thin territory

By the way, Mandibuzz with Rocky Helmet is also a check I guess since it will take out 50% of Melmetal's hp!

If we released Zekrom (hypothetical) into OU I would "counter" it with a combination of: Hippowdon, Ferrothorn, and throw a couple rocky helmets on.

Practical countermeasures are easy to come by for competent players, even for something like Melmetal, which has been made clear throughout this thread. Your slippery slope argument implies a lot of stretches of logic and poor teambuilding choices -- in general, many risks that are not worth taking. If you want to extend that logic, then running Pokemon that are not above a certain point in viability should not be mandated either, so Pokemon that cause this to be done in order to be checked/countered should all be banned (guess we should get rid of Terrakion and Bisharp then as Hippowdon was not so common before Home when the former was released and latter got Knock Off). Obviously, this is not a problem. You are trying to make something out of nothing with the RH slippery slope logic. It is really poor and we should stop discussing it because it is starting to derail the thread.

Hide

Small nit: I think it would often get triggered 3 times, not 4..

True. It depends on rolls. 3 Double Iron Bash can do anywhere from 405 to 468 damage and max HP Hippowdon rests at 420 HP. It is far more likely to only require 3.

I think you should use a bit more hesitation when considering posting in suspect threads until you get a better grasp on posting etiquette and the metagame surrounding Melmetal.

 

[Sabella]

Just posting as I just finished getting reqs and wanted to talk about my experience overall and vs melmetal. Gotta say I had a harder time than I thought I would, perhaps because of my limited ladder experience in SS OU. My biggest struggle was from 1500's-1650 oddly enough and after I passed that point I found myself only dropping one or two games reaching reqs at like 1876. For the most part I used two teams that I will post below. Two pretty vastly different the first being a pretty standard sash lead exca set up sweeper offense. This team struggled a bit with melmetal as i have nothing to nuke it in one hit so a well played mel was tough, I had to make sure my positioning in game never really let it in and keep my foot on the gas vs my opponent. The second team really didn't have much trouble with it. I have a few counters built in my team that are pretty common like corvik seis and rotom - h but I did have issues if i was facing a more offensive team. Melmetal comes in on clef pretty freely so I was not really doing much tele wish shenanigans. While it is an insanely strong and bulky Pokemon physically I cant say I found it centralizing or overpowered at all. Id be shocked if it was banned this time. I think the meta could handle it without every team having to add a specific counter as many standard teams already have them built in. I think it also brings a bit of balance to this tele clef bullshit that's so annoying to face, while this is no reason to unban it I do like the added benefit. Overall I will probably vote to unban as of now. If anyone would like the imports to the teams I used please feel free to message me on discord Booty#4282.

 

[Gayskeletor]

I haven't gotten reqs yet cause I'm bad but I agree with a few earlier replies to this thread who say Melm isn't that different from other breakers in the past with high attacking stats and few switch-ins like Kyurem B, Mega Medi and Mawile. They all thrive on finding good positions and firing off big attacks, and Melmetal can do the same but he can also eat a big attack himself and fire back in a pinch (if hes near full). Melm has weaknesses too but they've been written here already.

Anyway, another reason to unban is when the DLC drops in June, Melmetal is naturally going to go down a bit because more options will appear. For example, In natdex currently there are way more OU mons and Melmetal is only ranked B in viability.

 

[Snowtatoes]

Anyway, another reason to unban is when the DLC drops in June, Melmetal is naturally going to go down a bit because more options will appear. For example, In natdex currently there are way more OU mons and Melmetal is only ranked B in viability.

i get what you're trying to say but i don't think using the natdex meta as foresight is a good thing to do. what we get with the two announced dlcs doesn't even touch what we get within natdex (mega evolutions for example). i really don't think you can compare the two under any circumstance.

 

[Gayskeletor]

i get what you're trying to say but i don't think using the natdex meta as foresight is a good thing to do. what we get with the two announced dlcs doesn't even touch what we get within natdex (mega evolutions for example). i really don't think you can compare the two under any circumstance.

Yeah, I agree that natdex is a bad example cause even after DLC, there are gonna be plenty of mons that still aren't playable, sorry about that. Still, were going to see important pokemon that beat melmetal under the right circumstances like Zapdos, Lando and Volcarona, so the meta's still going to shift.

If Melmetal gets banned now, will we have to retest it post-DLC? Despite my poor example earlier I still think Melmetal will be weaker in two months because the number of Melmetal answers is going up.

 

[Finchinator]

If Melmetal gets banned now, will we have to retest it post-DLC? Despite my poor example earlier I still think Melmetal will be weaker in two months because the number of Melmetal answers is going up.

That's a post-DLC question; don't know now and it does not matter now either way. Stay tuned

 

[mudd_skip]

I do think that Melmetal is too much for the metagame right now and should be BANNED. First I'll try and disprove some of the arguments as to why Melmetal should be allowed.

"The metagame is very boring and stale; Melmetal forces people to stop using the same fat cores": While I can see where this argument comes from, as I've started playing on the suspect ladder, this argument is just wrong. Melmetal being around means that cores like wish clef + seismetoad/rotom-heat/ferrothorn are even more needed on teams in order to check it (in order to cover the plethora of movesets, which I'll get into). On the suspect ladder I've pretty much only seen this type of playstyle to deal with melmetal, or hyper offense where most of the team can outspeed melmetal.

"Popular picks all have some sort of countermeasure against melmetal; corviknight takes DIB and can u-turn, toad is toad, rotom-heat quad resists DIB, clef can teleport, etc.": This is definitely the best argument for freeing melmetal, however melmetal has multiple viable movesets that can deal with popular OU cores and pokemon, which I'll get into here:

Choice band is probably the most popular set. While pokemon like corviknight, physdef toxapex, rotom-heat, and toad do take DIB relatively well, melmetal's coverage allows it to break through most of these. Toxapex is easily 2hkod by thunderpunch or can be flinched down by DIB as it does 36.1 - 43.4% , max hp rotom-heat takes 71.7 - 84.5% from superpower and will die to DIB upon the next switch, toad takes 43.4 - 51.2% and cannot ohko it back (wishpass is a way to remedy this, but wish clefable lets melmetal come in for free and cannot teleport without sacking itself). Physically defensive corviknight is your best bet for CB melmetal as it can roost against thunderpunch, but other sets pose a problem:

Substitute + Acid Armor + Body Press: This set is meant to lure in the pokemon that want to take a DIB and set up for free (corviknight [which gets set up on even if it's body press], ferrothorn, etc). Because of melmetal's monstruous physdef and plethora of resistances (not to mention boosts from AA) it is difficult for many physically offensive mons to break its sub and deal with it without getting set up on (like zeraora, bisharp, physical aegi, and even dracovish) and the aforementioned defensive pokemon give it free setup. Additionally, due to melmetal's dangerous coverage, clefable often protects to scout what move melmetal locks into, but this set is able to gain a turn to sub and proceed to dismantle the opponent's team. However, toxapex can deal with this set if it is haze (but keep in mind if it's not, it can potentially get flinched downand set up on).

Toxic + Protect + Tpunch: Not a set I've seen too much, but I have used it to great success. The idea is simple: toxic common checks (rotom-heat, toad, and hippo namely), protect to rack up toxic. Throughout the course of the game, toxic + protect + DIB easily wear down these mons until they can't come in on DIB anymore. Tpunch still lets you hit pex, although like CB, corviknight can roost on it (although risking paras).

I've seen other sets tried like AV and even resttalk, but I don't have much experience with those.

Basically, because of melmetal's sheer power, broken signature move, plethora of viable sets which can break down common answers, and excellent physical bulk, I think it is too unhealthy and should be BANNED. Maybe in the future when more answers come out like zapdos and landorus-t, it could be retested.

 

[Ewin]

Since sus test is ending soon might as well share my thoughts


1.Melmetals Versatility
2.Lack of sufficient Counterplay
3.Essentially invalidating an entire Play Style


​

1. Mel can be whatever it wants to really, you need a strong breaker use cb, maybe you want to be more bulky on the spdef side use av, don't wanna be chipped by rh and iron barbs why not use protective pads, want to have a set that has the potential to 6-0 teams on the spot why not use sub acid armor, wanna chip down hippos,seismitoads and rotom heats why not use toxic, annoyed by corviknight and pex why not use twave, don't want to be scouted by protects and have the same coverage as a band mel why not 4 attacks without band. I could probably list another 5 sets if I wanted to, but you get the point by now. As someone who ladders an unhealthy amount of time per day, guessing what set melmetal could be from preview alone is basically impossible when you take into account the sheer amount of sets it can possibly run. And of course ppl might try to say but only like 3 of those sets you listed are common, but that still doesn't change the fact that it can a variety of different viable sets. IMO this is something that sets it apart from other breakers in the tier and 1 of main aspects that makes mel unhealthy for the meta as a whole. .Another thing about mel is that it can act as a defensive wall and offensive behemoth at the same time. You basically wall the likes of bish,zera,mimi,rachi,cloy,aegi (if cc less) with the help of wish tele Clef but at the same time be an offensive threat which has the potential to slap your entire team if its the right set or supported well enough.

2. Mel by its self is not too much of a hassle to deal with as long as its a set your prepped for but when you throw in things like rotom h and zera into the equation who are also checked by the same pokemon as mel things get ugly pretty fast. In situations where something like toad is your primary check to mel, it can easily be overwhelmed through toxelmetic chip, being knocked off, not being able to get wishes for free, etc. And from my experience laddering this is mostly the case when playing against a mal. Your defensive backbone can't handle the monster that is mel + other offensive threats in the tier reliably, esp when mel basically invalidates wish tele clef by never letting it tele and give a teammate its health back without drawbacks. When you add on the fact that mel will probably have wish tele support from clefable killing it through something like rh/iron barbs chip is also basically irrelevant.

3.I won't elaborate on this too much since its alrdy been explained b4, but mel basically invalidates ho unless you play on the top of your game the entire match. Your pretty much always forced to sack 2-3 mons vs a well played mel unless ur entire ho can somehow ohko it.

got reqs on day 1 n my opinion still hasnt changed about this mon so ill probs vote ban for the reasons stated above

​

 

[MilkyWay]

Hey guys, haven’t played enough yet to develop a full opinion on Melmetal. I just tried it out a moment ago and used a set of DIB, Toxic, Protect, and Thunder Punch (max atk, max hp with Leftovers). Since Corvi and Toxapex are the only pokemon who want to switch in to CB DIB Melmetal that are immune to Toxic, I added Bulk Up Zeraora because it matches up well against Corvi and Pex, and appreciates Melmetal Toxicing Seismitoad, Hippo, and Rotom-H. Pretty dirty combo if you ask me. I threw on SD Balloon Aegi cuz it has similar checks and made a team.

Here is my first and only match w it so far. Opponent had RH Hippo, Pex, and Rotom-H, so he was very prepared. Melmetal still put in a ton of work regardless but I ended up losing because my Aegi had a set of Shadow Claw, Shadow Claw (twice), Shadow Sneak, and Swords Dance so I couldn’t Iron Head his Ttar at the end. Either way, this Melmetal set should be accounted for in this discussion in addition to the CB and Acid Armor sets because it synergizes well with top sweepers like Zeaora, SD Aegislash, and probably others that I haven’t thought of yet.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1099659112 (mid 1500s)

 

[Finchinator]

Voting is up -- https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ss-ou-suspect-process-round-3-voting.3662840/

 

[Zaza]

With all the opinions on Melmetal coming out I wanted to post something that could be objective

1) Goal of the Meta
2) Melmetal's traits
3) Pro Ban vs No Ban

Goal of the Meta

I'll keep this short and simple with a quote

"A good meta has a variety of options that mesh well together providing interesting counterplay and set diversity between them" - gomi5556


While quotes can be subjective, this is exactly what people want from a meta. Keep this in mind when we look at everything.


Melmetal's traits


Steel
HP: 135
Attack: 143
Defense: 143
Special Attack: 80 (N/A to topic, doesn't use)
Special Defense: 65
Speed: 34

• HP lets Melmetal many hits in general and leaves room for it to stay in

• Attack stat is gigantic overall and lets it become a wall breaker

• Defense stat, along with HP, makes it a extremely difficult pokemon to bring down

• Special defense stat isn't the best but with the monster HP amount it can tank many hits from even the special side

• Speed is mediocre at best but can be used under trick room to great effect because of this low stat

Main Moves

Acid Armor
Body Press
Double Iron Bash
Earthquake
Heavy Slam
Ice Punch
Protect
Rock Slide
Substitute
Superpower
Thunder Punch
Thunder Wave
Toxic

With a consistent STAB move in Double Iron Bash, the rest of Melmetal's move pool shines through. Choice Band sets get quality coverage, Set-up variants have Acid Armor+Body Press, and can throw out status onto usual checks like Hippowdon, Corviknight, Ferrothorn, and others. Overall very complete move selection. There are a wide variety of ways to run Melmetal that are besides the two usual sets that'll be very effective themselves too.

After looking at this we can conclude that these are the main traits of Melmetal

• It's a great wall breaker
• It's excels at taking monster hits, especially from the physical side
• Mono-Steel typing lets it come in on a ton of pokemon
• Slower then most pokemon
• Lacks reliable recovery
• Great move selection


Pro Ban vs No Ban


I'll lay out the main points on both sides

Pro

• Eliminates a whole play style in Hyper Offense as there are little options to switch into Melm as they can't ko Melm back
• Needed to prepare for to insane lengths

No

• Melmetal is a excellent pokemon but there are many checks to it so it isn't broken
• It's insanely powerful, but it isn't powerful and restrictive to be banned


The more objective information is used to help others have a general understanding of what to look for when making a decision on Melmetal. This is open to editing if I feel that I missed something.



Read here on out and you'll get my opinion on all of this.



Because I want a meta to have the wonderful balance of diversity in play styles, techniques, niches, and much more I want to make that the priority of determining if Melmetal is unhealthy.

Team Building process begins when you think of a idea and want to build with it, but once you get to threats you'll go to Dracovish and Melmetal first before anyone else, that does mean that Melmetal is high priority for being checked. Although I have personally used teams that don't even feel touched my Melmetal thanks to Arcanine under sun, I can still see the severe constraints it puts onto hyper offense as a whole.

When it comes to Melmetal giving you production, most defensive oriented teams have at least 2 main pillars to deal with Melmetal and other smaller tactics on top of that. Most teams have a combination of a bulky water, Clefable, and another switch-in. When you pull back the pieces of most of these teams I end up with the conclusion that sadly Melmetal's destruction to team building isn't represented correctly still as Dracovish still exist to burry teams of 1 dedicated slot just for it. It also doesn't help that the meta is extremely linear even without Melmetal in the first place, but even with all that perspective being in place I would say Melmetal still has too much restraint to building to even bulky builds as it only furthers the already stale state of the metagame to even more unhealthy levels. With this said my stance on this is ban Melmetal, although still feel a little odd about it because of the circumstances surrounding this particular meta. I personally don't think Melmetal is super broken, but it borders on it just enough to give me the nod on the vote of ban.

 

[Finchinator]

I wanted to post something that could be objective

This sure as hell ain't it chief.

Locking this, voting is up and I will bump this with results. Thanks to everyone who posted!

 

[Finchinator]

Melmetal will remain banned from the SS OU metagame. Thank you to everyone who participated in this suspect discussion and got voting reqs.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ss-round-3-voting.3662840/page-5#post-8436116