Idk this logic just ignores all of the other metagame factors that contribute to the power of dracovish relative to conk or exca. Immunities to ground and fighting, resists to steel and normal, are just so much easier to come by on pokemon that are already top tier viability, than an immunity to water. Even aside from the fact that a boosted fishous rend is stronger than anything these other mons can possibly dish out (without SDs on terrak), i think it comes down to the fact that hippo, dragapult, aeigslash, clefable, rotom etc are just really good mons regardless of whether or not they need to check conkeldurr or excadrill, whereas toad and ( sad face) vaporeon are simply not.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 4 - Fish Out of Water
- Thread starter suapah
- Start date
- Status
This is the logic behind pretty much any ban since the dawn of time.
Choice Band Drill is just a bad set. Corviknight ALWAYS walls it to hell and back (Compare Vish 2HKOing Toad with Outrage) and you can pivot around it with pretty much any flying type and steel. Also, once Drill has locked into a move it's easy to bring in something to punish it and set up on it. What sets up on Dracovish?
Terrakion due to its poor defensive typing struggles for switch-in opportunities, and is manageable once it looks into a move, which is easily achievable by pivoting around. Prediction is an important part of playing against and with Choiced Pokemon (you may notice Aegi switches in for free on 3/4 moves and any Ground immunity on your team can deter EQ). Unless said Pokemon is Dracovish, in which case you just click Rend and 50% of the time the other 3 moves are filler.
Have you checked its speed lately? It's hard to get this in against something slower than it without taking a Knock Off (which is required to activate Flame Orb). It also kills itself over time, so you can just outlast it. CC dropping its defences also makes it absurdly easy to revenge kill (especially since you have no bulk on it). Finally, Air Balloon Swords Dance Aegi is a thing that just uses this as setup fodder.
Basically, combining multiple soft checks to a breaker within a team is now you deal with these Pokemon. This aspect of Pokemon has been an important part of teambuilding ever since Kyurem B was declared OU in 2012, and arguably in practice for even longer. This aspect of counterplay is entirely absent from checking Dracovish. You're either immune to Rend, or you're dead. There's no middle ground, no pivoting around it, no forcing it out by a slow pivot, just your mon dead. And in any of the above cases, so you have to give up a teamslot EXCLUSIVELY to checking them? No.
The difference is that Dracovish does not allow for really any midground pivoting, its dedicated checks are not really checks unless they are tailor-made to be so, and its offensive counterplay is too limited in this tier. You are required to run a water immunity if you want to deal with it against Rain teams, or sac a mon each time it gets in. I am personally pretty forgiving when it comes to keeping mons in a tier even if they require a bit more pivoting and scouting early on in a game. Dracovish functionally eliminates this element of strategy. I know your post is addressed to the council, so they can speak on their own behalf, but I am not sure their main argument is as simple as what you are suggesting.
The fact that things like this keep getting posted is honestly annoying; does no one read posts before them? Everyone knows that Vish is capable of dying to moves. The issue is that these two mons posted in each calc above do not exist in a vacuum. It is unlikely that Hydreigon, Kyurem, or any other mon listed above will be in and actually able to get off this hit against Vish. The issue presented, and the whole reason for this suspect, is that Vish has very few defensive responses. When sent out, CB Vish is capable of OHKOing or 2HKOing practically the entire metagame. But still, lets go over each of these.
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 291-342 (89.5 - 105.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem: 289-341 (73.9 - 87.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 337-397 (106.3 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 640-754 (212.6 - 250.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 158-186 (65.5 - 77.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Dracovish Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 273-322 (84.5 - 99.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Zeraora: 237-279 (74.7 - 88%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Dracovish Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Zeraora: 355-418 (111.9 - 131.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I realize that these calcs have been posted time and time again when this argument has been brought up but just thought it was worth reiteration. The reason for this suspect is not that Vish is impossible to revenge kill. It is that there are few real defensive answers to Rend + Outrage with coverage moves (and sometimes just rend when lacking water absorb), and Vish is capable of muscling past practically all of its switch-ins. The strain on teambuilding defensively is the reason for this suspect. I really don't understand what's so difficult to understand about this.
Read above. Besides, Hydreigon can hardly switch in- it practically dies to Rend.
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 291-342 (89.5 - 105.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Same as Hydreigon. It cannot switch in more than once.
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem: 289-341 (73.9 - 87.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Dragapult is the least bulky dragon listed so far, and dies even without rocks on the field.
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 337-397 (106.3 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Even worse than the above mentioned dragons due to a lack of water resist. It has no chance to live.
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 640-754 (212.6 - 250.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Cloyster cannot switch in more than once. Even if it does, it has to chose between dealing (at max) 62% to Vish with icicle spear, or going for Shell Smash off the choke. Either way, Vish can typically stay in to claim the kill. Additionally, Rend has a chance to OHKO after rocks.
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 158-186 (65.5 - 77.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Has no hope of ever switching in unless crunch is clicked. Even Outrage can OHKO after rocks.
252+ Atk Choice Band Dracovish Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 273-322 (84.5 - 99.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
See above. Even Crunch, Vish's weakest coverage move, has a chance to OHKO after rocks. Rend and Outrage are both OHKOs.
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Zeraora: 237-279 (74.7 - 88%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Dracovish Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Zeraora: 355-418 (111.9 - 131.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I realize that these calcs have been posted time and time again when this argument has been brought up but just thought it was worth reiteration. The reason for this suspect is not that Vish is impossible to revenge kill. It is that there are few real defensive answers to Rend + Outrage with coverage moves (and sometimes just rend when lacking water absorb), and Vish is capable of muscling past practically all of its switch-ins. The strain on teambuilding defensively is the reason for this suspect. I really don't understand what's so difficult to understand about this.
Last edited:
Ok, so this unpious comment about the sacro-saint council and his policy will soon be deleted and my account will probably be banned after that but I'll say what I think anyways. Dracovish is a very good pokemon in this meta for sure for the reasons mentionned above.
At least someone sensitive! I whole-heartedly agree with you! No matter if he is band or scarf, there are some sturdy defensive hard stops (seismitoad, ferrothorn, toxapex, and the more niche gastrodon and vaporeon are excellent switch-ins to even a band set even with the right prediction on dracovish' team and scarf set is walled by pretty much every water resist) for defensive teams and a decent amount of checks for offensive ones (zeraora, dragapult, every scarfer outspeed the scarf set, almost every offensive mon outspeed the band set). Is that the definition of pokemon that restricts the metagame? Well, I hear you: gastrodon and vaporeon are niche, seismitoad won't be used as much if dracovish wasn't here. If any of these is on the opposing team, dracovish is pretty much useless in this game, and you'll play 5 to 6. Does it mean that you have to play one of these full counter niche mons? Absolutely not: even if dracovish wasn't here, there will be very very little teams without either ferro, pex, zeraora, dragapult or... any scarfer! In that respect, a serious team would almost never autolose to dracovish whereas many teams (if not the majority) autolose to the obnoxious corviknight+pex+clef core to the point that something as cheesy as transform+imprison mew has become a legitimate thing... (on a side-note: when was the last suspect test of a stall defining mon? Ah, yes I remember: m-sableye in gen 6, less than a week before the end of the generation, how smart!). So there are plenty of non restrictive options you can go to deal with dracovish. Not to mention dracovish is a check to himself... So all in all we have a good mon with a wide variety of solid defensive and offensive, with only two viable sets (normally it souldn't be a ban-worthy argument but hey, when the council wanted to ban zygarde in gen 7, his versatility was the key factor in its trip to ubers), who has a very limited chance to sweep a whole team or break a balance core on his own. Another thing that is important to mention: although his typing is great defensively, his bulk is bad, he has a hard time finding a way to get a free switch-in in the first place except on resisted hits (even the four time resisted scald is by no means a free switch-in), which combined with his miserable speed when not scarved mean that it will often have to take two hits before attacking with a non full powered fishious rend. The council itself doesn't feel like it's broken: on the viability rankings it's only at A and has no overbearing usage either; but still, it's always better to ban cool A or B+ mons than toxic stall S mons that wil never ever be suspected. I won't be surprised if he next thing on the list was conkeldurr to be honest... It'll probably go like this: "with his great bulk, absurd power with guts backed by good coverage options and priority in the form of mach punch, conkeldurr has been very troublesome to tank for us since we do not have m-sableye anymore to cold counter it. That alone is more than enough to get it banned". So, will I vote for the suspect test? Well, no, because even at 1800 ladder, most people do not hit the benchmark and only a selected elite is allowed to vote (usually 20-30 people). I am about to get banned after this, but I needed to say it anyways.
Please try to keep your posts relevant to the current suspect test and not any potential ones in the future. If you wish to complain about the way tiering is run, I suggest you take that up with the OU council and don't pollute this thread with it any further. Thank you!
"Even with the right prediction on Dracovish's team."
252+ Atk Choice Band Dracovish Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 217-256 (52.4 - 61.8%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 158-186 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 141-167 (46.3 - 54.9%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Dracovish Outrage vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Gastrodon: 298-352 (69.9 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
If the Vish user predicts correctly, it's able to break through any of the "excellent switchins" you have listed above. Even if it doesn't, so what? Ferro has no reliable recovery, and the Vish user loses nothing other than momentum by clicking the wrong move into any of the other mons listed above. None of these are real and effective switchins.
The issue is that when Vish is allowed in, it almost always can claim a kill with the right prediction, or at least dent a serious hole in your opponent's team that will likely allow it to do the same when it comes in again (see above calcs).
Please list any that are not: Ferrothorn, Toxapex, Kommo (which dies to outrage 50% of the time), or a Water Absorber that otherwise would be decent (like toad) or practically unviable (Vaporeon). The fact that one of these is forced on each team to have a bearable matchup is the very definition of restricting teambuilding.
For this, read theotherguy's excellent post on Vish's tournament usage here.
Its slot on the viability rankings is not at all indicative of how it affects the metagame. From the prevalence of bulky water resists and niche Water Absorb users, it is clear Vish has warped the metagame around it.
Look, I understand that these are great offensive sets, but there are always going to be flaws. Excadrill and Terrakion, both which are running Choice Band, are always somehow going to be set up on once they're locked into a move. It's not difficult to switch in something that can eat the hit and potentially force a switch while that "something" gets the chance to set up.
Excadrill, as good of a sweeper it is, is also exceptionally frail and has a good chance of getting killed by anything faster than it, especially if sand is not up. It suffers from two priority moves, Aqua Jet and Mach Punch, both super-effective against the mole. Terrakion's bulk is slightly better, but it's absolutely still a free OHKO for many predominant mons in the current metagame.
Conkeldurr is exceptionally great this generation, but it has an atrocious special defense stat (and Hatterene sees an easy meal). And if that bulk isn't bad enough, its speed is incredibly bad as well. Mach Punch does come in handy here, but when Dragapult or Hatterene (basically anything immune/resistant to Mach Punch) are running around the field, that priority doesn't mean much.
The thing with Dracovish, however, is that it gets a decent attack and speed stat, and pretty respectable bulk. Its typing leaves it with only two weaknesses, and its main go-to-STAB Fishious Rend is capable of securing plenty of OHKOs, especially with rain or Choice Band. This abomination does not make switching in easy to do.
Water Absorb mons only provide a little relief considering that Dracovish can run plenty of other Fangs, most notably Crunch or Psychic Fangs, and can easily 2HKO those mons with Outrage if it needs to. This also leads to a second point that has been restated quite often; the fear of Dracovish has forced the usage of mons that were not seen as viable in OU. Seismitoad, an NU mon, has seen at least 30% usage in OU and should already be a clear indicator of how the fish has warped the metagame. Excadrill, Terrakion, and Conkeldurr all have a range of excellent counters and wallers; Vish, though, is in an entirely different league of its own.
Nobody has ever denied that it didn't have any switch-ins. Each Dracovish set has its own weaknesses, but playing the prediction game against a Dracovish is often costly. The question here is, at what cost? Do the Pokemon you mentioned always do a good job against Dracovish? All the defensive Pokemon you mentioned dies to Banded Adamant Vish in 2HKO and Vish doesn't have any difficulty getting into the field freely because its often paired by pivots, such as Clefable and Corviknight. As for offensive checks, I'm simply Switching out my Dracovish to use it again later in the match, preferably when I catch an opportunity to bring it safely to the field against some passive Pokemon that's slower than Dracovish and nuke whatever shit u consider sending out lol. You can surely force Dracovish out and I'll just keep using it against your weak Pokemon.
Saying these two sentences back to back is a little bit dumb, don't you think? Thinking that Seismitoad is only used to handle Dracovish but not thinking that's actually restrictive to teambuilding. :thinking:
Explained above, Dracovish has a way to play around all of its checks.
A serious team would probably prepare for both Dracovish and the Corviknight+Clefable+Toxapex cores. There are several Pokemon in the tier that can accomplish that, but this doesn't change the fact that Dracovish is dumb lol. People probably think that Dracovish is a bigger threat than the defensive cores so obviously its more prepared for. If it ends up being banned, you can probably observe that new wall breakers such as Chandelure will increase in usage to handle those defensive cores.
This generation is entirely different from the last generation. Comparing the two in terms of the suspect process is not that relevant based on how metagame developed around the suggested Pokemon. The fact that Dracovish "only has 2 viable sets" does really mean it only took it two sets to be unhealthy. Also, Dracovish is not really a sweeper so "very limited chance to sweep a whole team" is a pretty weak argument.
It actually does have a pretty solid bulk for an offensive Pokemon, and it doesn't really switch into attacks directly. As I said above, it's often paired with pivots to give it the necessary switches so you don't make genius plays like switching into Scald because you x4 resist it. About its Speed, it's still faster than half of the Metagame which makes it perfect to run Choice Band sets, to effectively nuke shit like Ferrothorn and Toxapex.
Why does this surprise you? If Dracovish departs people will likely rotate to different wall breakers, and in future we might have a metagame where Conkeldurr is broken. The way that how metagames work shouldn't really be surprising. Lol
Sorry to say this but, it seems like an l2p issue. The suspect test is public for everyone and anyone who gets reqs is allowed to vote. If you cant get the reqs don't blame people for it. And not 20-30 people is allowed to vote, we have about 150 voters eligible as of now with a whole week remaining to ladder.
Last edited:
This is the first time I do seriously a suspect test.
I have my reqs there.
Overall, I love Dracovish in this meta. It's fun and all to 2HKO or OHKO any foe with no water resistance. But...
There's no way he can stay in the meta. Fishious Rend is deadly 99% of the time without at least a Water Resistance, or an immunity. Some may argue that Ferrothorn, Toxapex, etc. are good checks, but here's the problem : without those mons, Vish is free to sweep easily any teams.
Which lead to the main problem of Vish for me : It forces teambuilding to be aware of him and centralize the meta way too much.
While I would have loved to see a meta where Dracovish is good without being broken, by now, for the healthiness of the meta, ban is the better option.
(may the DLC get you out of the Ubers...)
I have my reqs there.
Overall, I love Dracovish in this meta. It's fun and all to 2HKO or OHKO any foe with no water resistance. But...
There's no way he can stay in the meta. Fishious Rend is deadly 99% of the time without at least a Water Resistance, or an immunity. Some may argue that Ferrothorn, Toxapex, etc. are good checks, but here's the problem : without those mons, Vish is free to sweep easily any teams.
Which lead to the main problem of Vish for me : It forces teambuilding to be aware of him and centralize the meta way too much.
While I would have loved to see a meta where Dracovish is good without being broken, by now, for the healthiness of the meta, ban is the better option.
(may the DLC get you out of the Ubers...)
View attachment 248943
[/spoiler]
[/QUOTE]
[/spoiler]
[/QUOTE]
The scary part is that Dracovish is still capable of shredding even water resistances, and can 2HKO Ferrothorn and Toxapex. It's absurd.
Yeah, I haven't even mentioned the fact that it can wreak havoc upon those "checks" pretty easily with the choice band and just a few cheap damages (guaranteed 2HKO on Toxa and Ferrothorn with 1 layer of Spike, that's insane). Which forces to carry defensive core such as Physically Defensive FerroPex, because one is not enough to contain the monstrous Vish. Even if those types of build are also useful to contain other Mon such as Cloyster or Zeraora, it is still an issue. It can be argued that a faster metagame could make him less scary, but by now, it's not healthy to keep Vish in OU.
Last edited:
Special side:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 322-381 (89.1 - 105.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Terrakion: 249-294 (77 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Conkeldurr: 322-379 (91.7 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dracovish: 273-322 (84.7 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Physical side:
252+ Atk Choice Band Aegislash-Blade Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 298-352 (82.5 - 97.5%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Aegislash-Blade Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 217-256 (67.1 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Aegislash-Blade Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 208-246 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
252+ Atk Choice Band Aegislash-Blade Shadow Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dracovish: 199-235 (61.8 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Excadrill is a bit more frail, yes, but all the others are within roll range. A mon doesn't go from being 'slightly better than exceptionally frail' to 'respectable bulk' with such a minuscule difference. Typing matters ofc but still.
Dracovish is not a mon that is meant to be countered with defensive pokemon, even if Tangrowth comes with DLC it won't do much to it. What's it gonna do. Sleep Powder? Knock Off the band/scarf maybe? and then what?
Dracovish, like Conk and many others, is a mon you handle by not letting it get into a favorable position in the first place. Whether it's too difficult to achieve or not is not up to me, a mediocre OU battler who can't teambuild for shit, but as someone who can't teambuild, my pleb experience is that most of my trash tier mon experiments don't lose to Dracovish, they lose to being completely unable to get past Pex/Clef/Corv, which can only be dented and broke through by a very select club of mons. I have no doubts there are no serious answers to Dracovish within this select club of viable mons since it's so restricted, and there have been countless calcs showing that band vish ohkos some of those despite being outsped (zeraora etc). But I don't know if Dracovish really is the issue there, or the fact the few answers it could have just can't really make progress towards anything.. (things like Appletun, Lapras, Vaporeon, DD Flapple, Rillaboom all have either switch-in possiblities or opportunities to set up on the movelock, but why does it matter? +1 Flapple is still a Flapple) ...so yeah you end up using a shitty toad cause at least it does something even if its not great and that's how you achieve 30% toad usage.
I'm not particularly opposed to a vish ban, the sheer power of fishious rend is completely absurd, and considering that FerroPex blanket checks the huge majority of mons in this game, being able to brute force through them with resisted hits is quite mind boggling. But it feels weird on an ideological level to ban a thing when potential answers to the mon rot away in the depths of ZU/PU or whatever and can't be used due to their overall power level being too low. Not that my pleb opinion matters anyway.
edit: Sorry volx757, my quotes did get messed up indeed. I've fixed it now
Last edited:
i didn't say any of that tho.. I think your quotes got messed up.
First off, as a fellow plebe, your opinion absolutely matters. It's just a matter of how you frame it, which is hugely important here. For example I think you do make good points here, which are well argued. Though I do disagree with the ones I am going to outline which are seen above.
Point 1: The problem with trying to handle something as explosive as Vish is that not allowing it to get into a favorable position is sometimes just not possible. Even making the best possible moves in a match, there is the potential for Vish to take 1 or 2 Pokemon down with it. I noticed this more as I have been attempting to get reqs. In particular, the abundance of Teleport Clef, U-turn users and Volt Switch users in standard play make bringing Dracovish into favorable positions too easy. I would argue (and have argued) that this pattern of play does not reward skillful play. It encourages brainless clicking into Vish prediction. Vish prediction which will always be in favour of the Vish user.
Point 2A + 2B: I linked these together because they touch on similar issues, which happen to be the main reasons I think this thing should and will be banned. I would argue that Dracovish is the issue because it has so few answers (which I would argue are not even consistent) and necessitates the usage of niche mons that don't hold up to OU standard. Forcing people to use substandard Pokemon on the vast majority of teams is a surefire sign that something is unhealthy for the tier. I do not mean that I am against lower tier mons having niches in OU to counter metagame trends like Dracovish. I am a huge proponent of Galarian-Weezing for example, which I feel works well into certain trends in the metagame. The tipping point is when these Pokemon (including Seismitoad) become necessary to the majority of team builds. As you say, +1 Flapple is still a Flapple. Furthermore, if a Pokemon does not provide much to a team outside of answering one Pokemon, it will be deadweight on your team outside of Dracovish matchups. This is what you want to avoid in a tier as much as possible.
If Clef + Pex + Corvi is too strong, then it will be addressed down the track. Hopefully however, banning Dracovish will allow more Pokemon to shine in the tier. Ultimately promoting a healthier tier to play in, which will then develop checks and counters to whatever pops up naturally.
Last edited:
Is Dracovish an overcentralizing pokemon? Yes. Should it be banned? Yes. Should it be banned NOW? Well...
The sudden rise of teleport Clefable is really worrysome. The meta is inclining more and more towards stall, even with Dracovish in here. I don't know what it's going to happen when he is gone. I prefer lossing to Vish in 3 turns than winning against stall after 150.
The sudden rise of teleport Clefable is really worrysome. The meta is inclining more and more towards stall, even with Dracovish in here. I don't know what it's going to happen when he is gone. I prefer lossing to Vish in 3 turns than winning against stall after 150.
This doesn't really contribute anything to the thread. Finchinator went in-depth about why Clefable isn't the first to get suspect tested here, I recommend giving it a read. Regardless, this is not the thread to discuss your disagreement with the decision to suspect test Dracovish; it's already happening and going back on it this far in the suspect test simply would not make sense. The OP also states this:
Please make sure to read the OP so that you're aware of all the rules before posting here again. Thanks and have a good day!
Hi there! Even though I've been in the community for years, this is my first post on the forums (usually just a lurker of sorts). I couldn't bare to see what was happening in this thread any longer. The fact that anyone even thinking of defending the fish is getting (politely) torn to shreds is such a disappointing sight. While I think the decision to end the suspect test a day before the DLC potentially drops was done deliberately to get it out of the way, I'd really like to see it in a metagame where we potentially have more checks and counters. Despite, the fact that it's debatably unbalanced in the current metagame, I would personally vote No Ban.
While the current metagame punishes Dracovish's offensive checks in Dragapult, offensive Kommo-o's like CS and ID + BP due to the abundance in clefable, I believe that should DLC drop soon, either something that beats clefable will drop and help more offensive checks rise, or an additional check to Dracovish will show up and keep it in check. I also dislike the argument that it has "very few counters" since it has 3 or 4 viable ones (depending on whether you would consider Gastrodon viable), and while that might seem like not a lot, we're in a very different time than we were last generation, and with so few pokemon to choose from in the first place, its tough to say that 3-4 isn't a lot of counters. If DLC1 doesn't contain any direct checks or counters, then it should be considered for a ban, but as of now its current place in the metagame is fine and deserves a place until DLC1 drops.
While the current metagame punishes Dracovish's offensive checks in Dragapult, offensive Kommo-o's like CS and ID + BP due to the abundance in clefable, I believe that should DLC drop soon, either something that beats clefable will drop and help more offensive checks rise, or an additional check to Dracovish will show up and keep it in check. I also dislike the argument that it has "very few counters" since it has 3 or 4 viable ones (depending on whether you would consider Gastrodon viable), and while that might seem like not a lot, we're in a very different time than we were last generation, and with so few pokemon to choose from in the first place, its tough to say that 3-4 isn't a lot of counters. If DLC1 doesn't contain any direct checks or counters, then it should be considered for a ban, but as of now its current place in the metagame is fine and deserves a place until DLC1 drops.
I won't go into questioning the suspect decision as Jordy covered that pretty well, but I do want to point out that Dracovish is one of the reasons why WishPort Clefable is so common. The bulky offense teams anchored by Dracovish are really the archetype that appreciates Clefable. Stall teams, which often have other members with reliable recovery, have much less use for Clefable and its Wishes. If you're tired of facing Clefable all the time, I'd say this Dracovish suspect is the most logical first step. Additionally, a Vish ban could enable you to run mons that disrupt WishPort more reliably, such as SpDef Hippowdon.
I wasn't gonna post ITT because, frankly, I think that this test only has one outcome, but I just played a game that highlights just how oppressive Dracovish can be if you aren't stacking responses to it or using a Water immunity. Keep in mind that I'm actually using one of the sample teams in this replay, so the team itself isn't even a heavily flawed one outside of maybe needing a few set adjustments to be a little more modern.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1122029893
To briefly sum up what happened here:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1122029893
To briefly sum up what happened here:
- Dracovish doubles in as I go to Exca, forcing me to sacrifice something on the spot.
- Doubling out of Keldeo on a forced switch is all it takes for my opponent to guarantee a second KO.
- At that point the game was already over, but I played it out until Hippo fainted anyway
What's telling about this replay is that, in order to "counterplay" any of these doubles, you'd have to stay in on one of your mon's checks (Rachi for Clef, Keldeo for Rotom-H) and attack into Dracovish, and in both situations, Dracovish would not be dealt with.
8 SpA Rotom-Heat Discharge vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dracovish: 109-130 (33.8 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dracovish: 236-282 (73.2 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Potentially Rotom-H could have paralyzed it, and potentially Clef would put it in range of dying to Ferro's iron barbs (after dealing half to it). However, you're forced into making incredibly brazen plays to not just immediately lose a Pokemon by virtue of not having a water immunity. Your opponent is not similarly disadvantaged, as Vish isn't as tremendously high odds of being irreparably damaged versus most Pokémon due to its bulk. If they have Clefable on their team, even chip damage won't do it - they'll just wish it back up.
Your alternate play is to go into Ferrothorn, which would have it take more chip (and therefore be weaker to Keldeo and Vish) and still not really heavily punish a vish double.
I began laddering for reqs, so I figured I'd lay out my quick thoughts on fish. I agree with a lot of people in that it should be banned. It is far too restricting in teambuilding as every team (non ho) needs one of toad, pex, ferro (kommo-o kind of), or some niche water absorber like vaporeon (which are questionable picks at best). It is far too centralizing and restricts teams in a way that i think is unhealthy.
I have not played gen 8 OU for a good while, and this mon is the reason. I do not have an original opinion on this, or original explanations, but I will still list my thoughts as to why I will be voting To Ban
First, this mon is way too overcentralizing, to the point where it has brought in mons into high usage in the meagame almost soley because of their ability (Water absorb). if your mon lacks water absorb, and your check is gone, it's almost an auto lose. This wouldn't be a problem normally, but the fact that the main checks to vish get demolished by other common mons, such as zeraora and kyurem. Another problem is that, it only has only one, arguably two non - water absorb checks, max def pex w/ baneful bunker, and arguably ferro, which is a big problem.
Another problem with the fish, is that almost no mon can switch into it, other than water absorbers. most mons, even resisted ones get OHKO'ed or 2HKO'ed. the fact that resisted mons can't comforably live a fishious rend off a switch is warranted enough to ban it.
I may have not composed the most consice arguments, but my point remains the same, and if you want better arguments, look at Ausma's post. This mon has been the bane of my existance in singles, and, along with clefable, has pretty much made me quit the format, which is why I will be voting to Ban.
First, this mon is way too overcentralizing, to the point where it has brought in mons into high usage in the meagame almost soley because of their ability (Water absorb). if your mon lacks water absorb, and your check is gone, it's almost an auto lose. This wouldn't be a problem normally, but the fact that the main checks to vish get demolished by other common mons, such as zeraora and kyurem. Another problem is that, it only has only one, arguably two non - water absorb checks, max def pex w/ baneful bunker, and arguably ferro, which is a big problem.
Another problem with the fish, is that almost no mon can switch into it, other than water absorbers. most mons, even resisted ones get OHKO'ed or 2HKO'ed. the fact that resisted mons can't comforably live a fishious rend off a switch is warranted enough to ban it.
I may have not composed the most consice arguments, but my point remains the same, and if you want better arguments, look at Ausma's post. This mon has been the bane of my existance in singles, and, along with clefable, has pretty much made me quit the format, which is why I will be voting to Ban.
I have already stated my opinion so I won't do so again, but I would like to present this:
Shiinotic
Moonblast
Giga Drain
Strength Sap
Protect
Effect Spore, Bold Nature, Leftovers, 188 HP, 236 Def, 80 SpAtk, 4 Speed, Max EVs
I tried this set out in three battles with Vish, only one of which I actually got to use it, I switched it in against a Fishious Rend, it did around 70%, which let me know it was banded instead of scarfed, and effect spore paralyzed it, in the end, he switched Dracovish out when in was under 5% and paralyzed, basically removing it.
Now this can be used as a pro or anti ban argument, on one hand it's a counter that can help contain Dracovish, on the other hand, it's SHIINOTIC. IN WHAT WORLD COULD SHIINOTIC HAVE A NICHE IN OU?
I had a lot of trouble getting the exact numbers for the set, even with max special attack (with neutral nature) it will never have a 50% chance to OHKO.
This set has so many variables that you can adapt for what your team needs, I tried to EV it so it could take two hits and severely weaken it, or even kill if effect spore came in clutch. Really it's up to you. The biggest variable is whether you go with Leftovers or Rocky Helmet, Leftovers allows for a guaranteed hit on Dracovish (barring a crit), while Rocky Helmet allows for Shiinotic to kill after helmet damage. I think it's pretty much mandatory to have a +defense nature on this, so I didn't even try outside of +defense. What it lowers is up to you, you can lower attack, or you can lower speeds and counter trick room teams, I chose -Attack, in fact, I even threw in a few speed EV's just in case other base 30's would make an appearance, I know there aren't many, but it's not impossible to see Galarian Corsola or Snorlax.
This set also does surprisingly well in battles without Dracovish, ok, well isn't the right word, it's more like not completely dead weight. Strength Sap allows for it to switch into physical attackers (with correct prediction) and weaken them while healing damage that was taken beforehand.
Some calculations (With presented set unless otherwise stated)
Scarf Dracovish
48.7-57.4% for every fishious rend, with leftovers and protect afterwards, 36.2-44.9% lost if max damage done, only 30% chance to kill, 0% chance when Shiinotic is at 58% or higher, in other words ridiculously low chance to kill (barring crits)
Band Dracovish
73-85.7%, 60.5-73.2% after leftovers and protect, guaranteed 2HKO, which is bad, but let's be honest, that power is absurd, so everything has a hard time killing it.
Shiinotic Moonblast, 77-91.3%, guaranteed 2HKO, but remember, I didn't put that much into Special Attack so:
252 SpAtk EVs Shiinotic Moonblast 90-106.8%, 43.8% chance to OHKO (With +SpAtk nature is 93.8% chance to OHKO, but this isn't about OHKOing, it's about removing Dracovish as a threat from the battle)
0 SpAtk EVs Shiinotic Moonblast 69.6-82.6% 2HKO, run for maximum bulk
The most pivotal calculation: 51% chance for Effect Spore to take effect The implications for this are huge
Poison - Either kills it at the end of poisoned turn, or makes it dead on arrival assuming my chosen EV's, probably the smallest out of the three.
Paralysis - Chance for Shiinotic to kill if paralysis works out, and essentially guarantees everything will outspeed it, which is huge.
Sleep - Puts Dracovish out of commission for several turns, either forcing a switch, or a free strength sap and another move to kill for Shiinotic
Not to mention if it takes 3 hits the odds increase to 65.7%
To finish this off, I know it's not a 100% check, I know it won't always do what's intended, but the only reason I wrote this was because this set can be adapted in so many ways, so I think unpredictability will be the reason this becomes viable in any amount. Finally, I don't think this will be good, it's just an idea.
Shiinotic
Moonblast
Giga Drain
Strength Sap
Protect
Effect Spore, Bold Nature, Leftovers, 188 HP, 236 Def, 80 SpAtk, 4 Speed, Max EVs
I tried this set out in three battles with Vish, only one of which I actually got to use it, I switched it in against a Fishious Rend, it did around 70%, which let me know it was banded instead of scarfed, and effect spore paralyzed it, in the end, he switched Dracovish out when in was under 5% and paralyzed, basically removing it.
Now this can be used as a pro or anti ban argument, on one hand it's a counter that can help contain Dracovish, on the other hand, it's SHIINOTIC. IN WHAT WORLD COULD SHIINOTIC HAVE A NICHE IN OU?
I had a lot of trouble getting the exact numbers for the set, even with max special attack (with neutral nature) it will never have a 50% chance to OHKO.
This set has so many variables that you can adapt for what your team needs, I tried to EV it so it could take two hits and severely weaken it, or even kill if effect spore came in clutch. Really it's up to you. The biggest variable is whether you go with Leftovers or Rocky Helmet, Leftovers allows for a guaranteed hit on Dracovish (barring a crit), while Rocky Helmet allows for Shiinotic to kill after helmet damage. I think it's pretty much mandatory to have a +defense nature on this, so I didn't even try outside of +defense. What it lowers is up to you, you can lower attack, or you can lower speeds and counter trick room teams, I chose -Attack, in fact, I even threw in a few speed EV's just in case other base 30's would make an appearance, I know there aren't many, but it's not impossible to see Galarian Corsola or Snorlax.
This set also does surprisingly well in battles without Dracovish, ok, well isn't the right word, it's more like not completely dead weight. Strength Sap allows for it to switch into physical attackers (with correct prediction) and weaken them while healing damage that was taken beforehand.
Some calculations (With presented set unless otherwise stated)
Scarf Dracovish
48.7-57.4% for every fishious rend, with leftovers and protect afterwards, 36.2-44.9% lost if max damage done, only 30% chance to kill, 0% chance when Shiinotic is at 58% or higher, in other words ridiculously low chance to kill (barring crits)
Band Dracovish
73-85.7%, 60.5-73.2% after leftovers and protect, guaranteed 2HKO, which is bad, but let's be honest, that power is absurd, so everything has a hard time killing it.
Shiinotic Moonblast, 77-91.3%, guaranteed 2HKO, but remember, I didn't put that much into Special Attack so:
252 SpAtk EVs Shiinotic Moonblast 90-106.8%, 43.8% chance to OHKO (With +SpAtk nature is 93.8% chance to OHKO, but this isn't about OHKOing, it's about removing Dracovish as a threat from the battle)
0 SpAtk EVs Shiinotic Moonblast 69.6-82.6% 2HKO, run for maximum bulk
The most pivotal calculation: 51% chance for Effect Spore to take effect The implications for this are huge
Poison - Either kills it at the end of poisoned turn, or makes it dead on arrival assuming my chosen EV's, probably the smallest out of the three.
Paralysis - Chance for Shiinotic to kill if paralysis works out, and essentially guarantees everything will outspeed it, which is huge.
Sleep - Puts Dracovish out of commission for several turns, either forcing a switch, or a free strength sap and another move to kill for Shiinotic
Not to mention if it takes 3 hits the odds increase to 65.7%
To finish this off, I know it's not a 100% check, I know it won't always do what's intended, but the only reason I wrote this was because this set can be adapted in so many ways, so I think unpredictability will be the reason this becomes viable in any amount. Finally, I don't think this will be good, it's just an idea.
Time for me to post my thoughts up on this thing. I'll state now I haven't played much Gen 8 due to some IRL factors but still enjoy occasional games, read the threads and banter. My overall view is that This thing needs to be banned for the good of the tier otherwise Gen 8 face's having to endure a stagnant meta.
Like with Gen 7 Zygarde or Gen 6 Aegisslash your forced to run a handful of checks to ensure you don't lose at screen preview which cause's other issues for teams should you encounter something unusual or not standard. Water absorbers (Seismatoad Excluded) are itself niche in most meta's but are virtually mandatory now and every other non absorber check is still eliminated under certain conditions That amount of team building restriction is frankly not fair nor fun and its something that'll get worse as time goes on. While some centralisation can be healthy and add to the game (Hazards) when it outright eliminates choices it crosses the line. For those reasons if I got the chance I would certainly vote for a ban.
That's my observation anyway. Ban this thing and the meta should open up. No mandatory team members and More diversity will lead to more answers to mons like wish port clef (I think its perfectly fine but we'll wait) and stall. More diversity means more fun.
Anyway thats enough from me. Hope you all appreciate my observations. Hopefully I can post more soon.
Like with Gen 7 Zygarde or Gen 6 Aegisslash your forced to run a handful of checks to ensure you don't lose at screen preview which cause's other issues for teams should you encounter something unusual or not standard. Water absorbers (Seismatoad Excluded) are itself niche in most meta's but are virtually mandatory now and every other non absorber check is still eliminated under certain conditions That amount of team building restriction is frankly not fair nor fun and its something that'll get worse as time goes on. While some centralisation can be healthy and add to the game (Hazards) when it outright eliminates choices it crosses the line. For those reasons if I got the chance I would certainly vote for a ban.
That's my observation anyway. Ban this thing and the meta should open up. No mandatory team members and More diversity will lead to more answers to mons like wish port clef (I think its perfectly fine but we'll wait) and stall. More diversity means more fun.
Anyway thats enough from me. Hope you all appreciate my observations. Hopefully I can post more soon.
- Status