np: SS UU Stage 8.2 - Cherry (Latias BANNED)

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Don't know if you're serious on this one or if it's linked to the joke on Zacian and Torkoal but this statement is 100% false. There isn't a set of Latias which can bypass all its checks. From CM + Recover to Choice Scarf, including LO 3 attacks or Grassy Seed / Flame Orb, there isn't a set of Latias which can claim to be able to bypass the whole metagame. I agree with the fact that with the right moves and set, Latias is able to "pick" its checks but it clearly cannot beat all of them at once..
I didnt meant that latias can bypass all of its check, but many of the argument just talk about things that can check latias and how htey beat it. But that doesnt mean that the mon is not broken. Sorry is u missunderstood me.
 

BigFatMantis

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I don't really understand how people keep downplaying Latias checks, and then when people bring up Pokemon that legitimately check it, they pass it off as limited or not reliable? Hatterene, for example, is a pretty amazing check especially with AV Nuzzle. Even with the standard Hatterene set it still checks it. But then people say it's not a great check, or that AV is bad, but then argue that Latias is good because it can run less optimal sets to check its checks too? When you change a Pokemon's set to adjust to the bigger threats in the meta that doesn't make them terrible sets - it means you are adjusting accordingly to how the meta is. Things change, and you adjust to keep up.

The point is this: Latias with Flame Orb, or Grassy Seed, or Scarf, is not very problematic. Anytime someone brings up those sets I don't understand why they are arguing that it's broken. The only potentially broken set is the LO + 3 Attacks set - that is the set that has the fewest checks (although it still has at least 5 defensive checks in Slowking, Hatterene, Chansey, Celesteela (MFire still only does 35% with LO), Jirachi).

For the Flame Orb set - yes it can catch some teams off guard and then win. But that's because it's not common and people may not know how to play against it. To quote the newly uploaded analysis by Twilight on this point: "this set is extremely niche, as it greatly cuts into Latias's longevity and forces you to use Roost more often than wanted. It also leaves Latias walled by Dark-types, particularly Incineroar, and with an atrocious offensive matchup versus them."

Grassy Seed is a bit of a better set than Flame Orb, but you are very vulnerable to anything with Toxic. Especially Chansey, which can totally shut it down. As I said earlier, Reuniclus is a better Grassy Seed abuser. And if you're going to go for this type of gameplay, even Demon Mew will win you more games than this Grassy Seed Latias will. I have used both extensively, and the Latias disappoints way more often.

The Calm Mind set is good! It is certainly not niche like the prior two mentioned. But you are forced to either abandon Roost, abandon Draco, or abandon MFire, none of which are very optimal choices. So while it is a good set, it's not really terrifying, and you can still switch in a defensive check or even an offensive check while it Calm Minds and force it out fairly easily.

I won't get into Scarf/Specs because while those sets are decent, nobody is realistically going to say a Choice set is broken in any way. I suppose you can Trick some of your usual checks like Chansey but then you are a Latias with only 3 moves and a useless item.

So, if someone says Latias is broken because of the 3A LO set, I can understand why that set is aggravating and understand why people want to see it gone. I just don't think it rises to the level of being too much for the tier, and I think there are sufficient checks against it, both offensive and defensive, that don't warrant a ban at all. BUT, when people start bringing up the other sets as pro-ban arguments because it can checks its checks, while simultaneously dismissing its checks with also less-common sets, I don't think that logic works and I will usually dismiss it.
 

Lilburr

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Sorry to kinda pick this post apart but it feels like it's misunderstanding quite a few things.

I don't really understand how people keep downplaying Latias checks, and then when people bring up Pokemon that legitimately check it, they pass it off as limited or not reliable? Hatterene, for example, is a pretty amazing check especially with AV Nuzzle. Even with the standard Hatterene set it still checks it.
Hatterene without Nuzzle does not check Latias - it very loosely checks Life Orb + 3 Attacks like, literally once, and loses to Calm Mind variants with ease. This is how the sequence between Calm Mind Latias and Hatterene goes - if you don't want to watch, Hatterene loses because of Mystical Fire drops and while you do chip the Latias significantly it usually runs Roost regardless. There are multiple ways to play this sequence out fwiw but they all end in Latias winning with ~30% HP or more.

But then people say it's not a great check, or that AV is bad, but then argue that Latias is good because it can run less optimal sets to check its checks too? When you change a Pokemon's set to adjust to the bigger threats in the meta that doesn't make them terrible sets - it means you are adjusting accordingly to how the meta is. Things change, and you adjust to keep up.
AV is a great check. There is a reason people say AV is bad compared to saying something like Flame Orb Latias is bad, though - Hatterene loses a significant amount of its threat level, physically defensive presence (struggles more with checking something like Terrakion because it needs to run SpA investment) and ability to clean late game by running an AV. Latias, on the other hand, never loses its massive threat level by running something like Flame Orb or Grassy Seed because it's not reliant on its item to get going. This is an example of poor adaptation - yes, your team may be more secure by running something like AV Hatterene or max SpD Slowking, but you have to factor in how many other things you struggle against because of this, and those aren't easy holes to patch with such a limited amount of Pokemon per team in such a restrictive metagame.

The point is this: Latias with Flame Orb, or Grassy Seed, or Scarf, is not very problematic. Anytime someone brings up those sets I don't understand why they are arguing that it's broken. The only potentially broken set is the LO + 3 Attacks set - that is the set that has the fewest checks (although it still has at least 5 defensive checks in Slowking, Hatterene, Chansey, Celesteela (MFire still only does 35% with LO), Jirachi).
You're not seeing the bigger picture here. Nobody is making the argument that Latias is broken solely off the merits of its Flame Orb set or whatever else, the point is that those sets flip typical counterplay on their head and create a Pokemon that can, in theory and often in practice, beat every single check it has. This is a problem because you have to account for everything Latias can do in the builder, and if you're adequately prepared for something like Life Orb Latias or Calm Mind Latias via the combination of Slowking and Zeraora, you might still lose to Grassy Seed Latias because Zeraora can't break through it, rendering TWO pokemon you put on your team to deal with Latias completely helpless against it - keep in mind that you only have 6 slots. Adaptation is not this simple.
On top of that, the 5 defensive checks you've listed are, to say the least, quite poor. Slowking can't actually do anything back to Latias other than click Teleport and pray, and it's also possible to 2HKO physically defensive Slowking from full HP with two Draco Meteors - if it's taken any chip at all, kiss it goodbye. I've already outlined why Hatterene is a poor check. Chansey is the most reliable answer to 3 Attacks + Roost Latias but it's also forced into awkward recovery cycles by Psyshock, which also goes for Jirachi when it's hit by Mystical Fire. Celesteela has poor longevity if the opponent has a Pokemon that can block its Leech Seed (see: Grass types on every single team for Zeraora and Krookodile) and that means you can switch into Latias and force it out approximately... once.

For the Flame Orb set - yes it can catch some teams off guard and then win. But that's because it's not common and people may not know how to play against it. To quote the newly uploaded analysis by Twilight on this point: "this set is extremely niche, as it greatly cuts into Latias's longevity and forces you to use Roost more often than wanted. It also leaves Latias walled by Dark-types, particularly Incineroar, and with an atrocious offensive matchup versus them."
No, it's not because people don't know how to play against it. It's because it can't be beaten by standard counterplay whatsoever. Slowking goes from the amazing check everyone seems to think it is (hint: it's not) to setup fodder, Zeraora can't even come close to OHKOing it and once it catches a burn it's useless, Jirachi becomes fodder, it still beats Hatterene 1v1, it beats Chansey 1v1, aaaand it still loses to Krookodile and is more helpless against Celesteela. There is of course counterplay to this set and its own longevity hurts it a lot but the point is that it turns a lot of standard Latias counterplay that you are forced to run into a laughing stock and therefore is problematic.

Grassy Seed is a bit of a better set than Flame Orb, but you are very vulnerable to anything with Toxic. Especially Chansey, which can totally shut it down. As I said earlier, Reuniclus is a better Grassy Seed abuser. And if you're going to go for this type of gameplay, even Demon Mew will win you more games than this Grassy Seed Latias will. I have used both extensively, and the Latias disappoints way more often.
I'm not going to disagree here because Grassy Seed Latias was more of a fad that won a couple of games and then died down. It's still extremely good against standard Slowking-into-fast-Knock Off teams that use that as their form of counterplay but falters against fat. /shrug

The Calm Mind set is good! It is certainly not niche like the prior two mentioned. But you are forced to either abandon Roost, abandon Draco, or abandon MFire, none of which are very optimal choices. So while it is a good set, it's not really terrifying, and you can still switch in a defensive check or even an offensive check while it Calm Minds and force it out fairly easily.
...or you can abandon Psyshock and beat the entire tier with coverage that is resisted by literally two Pokemon, neither of which can switch into you until your set is fully revealed and by that point it's often too late. It is absolutely terrifying and arguably even more dangerous than the Life Orb + 3 Attacks set because very little reliably checks it defensively, and if it runs a Colbur Berry - uncommon but very viable, particularly on Krookodile-weak teams! - then it's got very little in the way of offensive counterplay too. It does struggle a bit more with breaking stuff like the Hat (still wins 1v1 more often than not) and Celesteela but those are not difficult Pokemon to take advantage of regardless since a lot of their checks just happen to be Latias's checks that end up on every team.

So, if someone says Latias is broken because of the 3A LO set, I can understand why that set is aggravating and understand why people want to see it gone. I just don't think it rises to the level of being too much for the tier, and I think there are sufficient checks against it, both offensive and defensive, that don't warrant a ban at all. BUT, when people start bringing up the other sets as pro-ban arguments because it can checks its checks, while simultaneously dismissing its checks with also less-common sets, I don't think that logic works and I will usually dismiss it.
Covered pretty much all of this already but the point is that Latias can adapt freely because of how overwhelming it is with very little opportunity cost relative to other Pokemon that try to adapt to deal with Latias. It isn't much more difficult than that - back when we first banned Gyarados, people were running Scarf Flygon and Lucario with Thunder Punch because it reliably revenge killed them. It's adaptation but it's not healthy adaptation.

I really implore you & other posters in this thread to focus a bit more on the bigger picture here of what Latias actually does to the tier, not just how it performs in battle. Mandating two checks just for its standard set, potentially a third for its other more niche sets, is not healthy and creates a very restrictive, awful-to-build meta. Banning Latias will not fix this on its own, but it's a necessary step in the right direction if we want to work on making the tier healthier and more enjoyable.
 
Although I agree with a lot of the post above mine, I also think there are quite a few misinformed parts in there that I want to point out.

I don't really understand how people keep downplaying Latias checks, and then when people bring up Pokemon that legitimately check it, they pass it off as limited or not reliable? Hatterene, for example, is a pretty amazing check especially with AV Nuzzle. Even with the standard Hatterene set it still checks it. But then people say it's not a great check, or that AV is bad, but then argue that Latias is good because it can run less optimal sets to check its checks too? When you change a Pokemon's set to adjust to the bigger threats in the meta that doesn't make them terrible sets - it means you are adjusting accordingly to how the meta is. Things change, and you adjust to keep up.
This part I have a lot of issues with. I’ve used Hatterene extensively over the past month, & I’d be willing to bet that I’ve used it more than probably everyone I know. This includes CM Draining Kiss (the set I’m using exclusively on the team on my suspect alt), AV (mostly before suspect started), and even TR. CM Draining Kiss sets do not beat opposing CM Latias and people should stop thinking they do. In my suspect team, I have a Moltres-G, a CM Hatterene, and a Zeraora. If Latias CMs when you switch CM Hatt in, you will lose the 1v1. It’s happened to me 4 times now (actually 3 but I crit it once so not counting that). AV sets are pretty decent but I think it’s very fair to say that they are “limited” so I don’t get your issue with it? Limited as in not only are they uncommon, but no recovery = only so many times you can switch in with no recovery, especially if you can’t keep rocks off. And no I’m not keeping my Latias in vs an AV Hatt to let it get Nuzzled. Idk about others but I always speak from experience and spectating others. Standard Hatterene sets do not check Latias like you claim and I haven’t seen anyone claim it’s outright bad (it is not).

The point is this: Latias with Flame Orb, or Grassy Seed, or Scarf, is not very problematic. Anytime someone brings up those sets I don't understand why they are arguing that it's broken. The only potentially broken set is the LO + 3 Attacks set - that is the set that has the fewest checks (although it still has at least 5 defensive checks in Slowking, Hatterene, Chansey, Celesteela (MFire still only does 35% with LO), Jirachi).

For the Flame Orb set - yes it can catch some teams off guard and then win. But that's because it's not common and people may not know how to play against it. To quote the newly uploaded analysis by Twilight on this point: "this set is extremely niche, as it greatly cuts into Latias's longevity and forces you to use Roost more often than wanted. It also leaves Latias walled by Dark-types, particularly Incineroar, and with an atrocious offensive matchup versus them."

Grassy Seed is a bit of a better set than Flame Orb, but you are very vulnerable to anything with Toxic. Especially Chansey, which can totally shut it down. As I said earlier, Reuniclus is a better Grassy Seed abuser. And if you're going to go for this type of gameplay, even Demon Mew will win you more games than this Grassy Seed Latias will. I have used both extensively, and the Latias disappoints way more often.

The Calm Mind set is good! It is certainly not niche like the prior two mentioned. But you are forced to either abandon Roost, abandon Draco, or abandon MFire, none of which are very optimal choices. So while it is a good set, it's not really terrifying, and you can still switch in a defensive check or even an offensive check while it Calm Minds and force it out fairly easily.
FWIW I think Grassy Seed sets are terrible but Flame Orb sets aren’t bad at all, and I’m surprised we had such vastly different experiences since you were often disappointed by it.

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This is a team I made a few weeks ago that I contemplated using in Masters but ended up just using offensive stuff instead due to the Azu weakness / me preferring offense in general. The Lati is bulky Flame Orb and put work in a majority of the ladder games I’ve played with this. I’m not claiming it’s the greatest team ofc, but when people rely on stuff like Krook, Zera, Jirachi, etc to offensively check Lati, passing a burn to any of these then recovering on something like Slowking later on = extremely annoying. I used things like Palossand + Helm Skarm + resist berry Scald GBro to cripple these things even more and make Latias’s life a bit easier. Sure, it’s not as consistent as LO or even CM, but it’s not bad in the slightest & I’ve beat a lot of unprepared teams just bc “lol it’s a meme & is actually a bad set.”

The Calm Mind set is good! It is certainly not niche like the prior two mentioned. But you are forced to either abandon Roost, abandon Draco, or abandon MFire, none of which are very optimal choices. So while it is a good set, it's not really terrifying, and you can still switch in a defensive check or even an offensive check while it Calm Minds and force it out fairly easily.
...Why are you forced to abandon one of these three? When using CM + Roost, I’ve always dropped Psychic stab with little issues (yes I do miss not having it when I run into Nihi or Tenta tho, for example), but idk why you’d drop one of the others. Saying you can “switch in an offensive or defensive check as it CMs and force it out fairly easily” is very, very wrong. Is it really an easy play to bring in your Krook, Zera, Bish, Jirachi, or whatever other offensive check hoping it CMs? What if it Dracos and kills the first two or Mystical Fires the second two on the switch? Or what if it actually CMs as you bring your Slowking, Hatt, Chansey, etc in and then you... take 90 with Slowking, lose the 1v1 with CM Hatt, run into CM Psyshock with Chansey (yes this set owned the team I pasted above just last night when I saw CM & assumed no Psychic stab but it was no Roost instead)? I’ve found the play to actually be in favor of the Latias user and not “easy to play around” at all, but maybe like Adaam says I’m just bad at playing.

Again, I’m not trying to sound hostile at all. If people are saying things like Hatterene, Diancie, Umbreon, or whatever other lesser niche Pokemon is bad despite it doing more than just checking Latias, yes they are wrong. However, if people are citing one Pokemon that only serves to check Latias then proceeds to invite 10 top metagame threats in for free, yeah I’m going to call it bad. It’s not about adapting, it’s about not having to use a mon solely to check one Pokemon, especially when we have so many other threats it’ll leave you vulnerable to in the process.

e: lily sniped me & smells like rotten burritos
 

BigFatMantis

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Ok so LOL I didn't expect to get double quoted but since both posts were very long I think IP was probably typing while Lily was typing and didn't intend to double hit me. I am not trying to be hostile or unreasonable but I think what I am saying is important, and I think people should be seeing all sides to this argument so that they can make informed decisions on it. So let me get to it:

Hatterene without Nuzzle does not check Latias - it very loosely checks Life Orb + 3 Attacks like, literally once.
This just isn't true at all. Once it nuzzles Latias on the LO+3A set, it wins, even after MFire. -1 252+ SpA Hatterene Draining Kiss vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 102-120 (33.8 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO . Latias cannot recover quickly enough while still trying to damage it. There is just absolutely no way a Hatterne will lose this battle, and it is not a "loose" check, it is a pretty air-tight solid check to the LO+3A set.



Latias, on the other hand, never loses its massive threat level by running something like Flame Orb or Grassy Seed because it's not reliant on its item to get going.
This is also a little misleading. It DOES lose significant threat level running Flame Orb or Grassy Seed, as those sets are much more manageable through ordinary teams. Flame Orb set is just not good, for reasons I stated earlier. Things like Chansey and Slowking can still come in on it and pivot out to an offensive check quite easily, so it really only works well against stally teams. I think you are downplaying this a little too much, which is what my main issue has been when reading many of the pro-ban arguments here. The counterplay is being so significantly downplayed very unfairly. It exists and it is very legitimate.



You're not seeing the bigger picture here. Nobody is making the argument that Latias is broken solely off the merits of its Flame Orb set or whatever else, the point is that those sets flip typical counterplay on their head and create a Pokemon that can, in theory and often in practice, beat every single check it has. This is a problem because you have to account for everything Latias can do in the builder, and if you're adequately prepared for something like Life Orb Latias or Calm Mind Latias via the combination of Slowking and Zeraora, you might still lose to Grassy Seed Latias because Zeraora can't break through it, rendering TWO pokemon you put on your team to deal with Latias completely helpless against it - keep in mind that you only have 6 slots. Adaptation is not this simple.
I agree with you!!! (not the first sentence, but the ones after that). My problem is not that people are using the versatility to argue for a pro-ban. My problem is that they are doing that in combination with DISMISSING the versatility of the sets its checks can run. I think that is very unfair and one-sided to say "Well Latias can check Chansey with Flame Orb!!!" while then also saying "Boooo Max Sp.Def Slowking is so niche!!! (even though it also checks things like Nidoqueen)". If you're going to make the argument that Latias is versatile, go right ahead, but don't dismiss the versatility of its checks when they are brought up so easily.


On top of that, the 5 defensive checks you've listed are, to say the least, quite poor. Slowking can't actually do anything back to Latias other than click Teleport and pray, and it's also possible to 2HKO physically defensive Slowking from full HP with two Draco Meteors - if it's taken any chip at all, kiss it goodbye. I've already outlined why Hatterene is a poor check. Chansey is the most reliable answer to 3 Attacks + Roost Latias but it's also forced into awkward recovery cycles by Psyshock, which also goes for Jirachi when it's hit by Mystical Fire. Celesteela has poor longevity if the opponent has a Pokemon that can block its Leech Seed (see: Grass types on every single team for Zeraora and Krookodile) and that means you can switch into Latias and force it out approximately... once.
This is the main problem that I think we are seeing here and I think it needs to be severely cut back, and I'm glad you said this. I cannot believe how easily Latias's checks keep getting dismissed like this, and for what? Latias is powerful, we get that, the pro ban argument doesn't neeed fostering by trying to de-legitimize checks. Slowking CAN do something back - it can use Thunder Wave. Or Pivot out to one of Latias's many offensive checks that you already have on your team without needing to plan for it. AV Hatterenee, again, is a great check to the 3A LO set, and even to CM sets it can paralyze with Nuzzle and potentially win on paralysis, or switch to something else to offensively pressure it (since, again, there are lots of things that offensively pressure Latias, especially once its paralyzed). Celesteela forces the Latias player to initiate standard Celeesteela counterplay which is switching out Latias for a grass in hopes you don't Flamethrower, and switching again. It can't stay in against Celesteela because it does too little damage to it (35 with L Orb MFire), and takes too much from Heavy Slam and won't win the Leech Seed game. You will not force it out only "once", because by the time you switch in, take a MFire, and then Latias switches out again, and you protect, you are already back up to 80% or so HP. Jirachi I agree is a shaky check, not the best, but it can work. And Chansey I think everyone agrees is the most reliable answer. The recovery cycles are only bad if you switch into Psyshock, and even then you will still recover more than you will get damaged so it's usually all fine and Chansey is rarely threatened by this.




No, it's not because people don't know how to play against it. It's because it can't be beaten by standard counterplay whatsoever. Slowking goes from the amazing check everyone seems to think it is (hint: it's not) to setup fodder, Zeraora can't even come close to OHKOing it and once it catches a burn it's useless, Jirachi becomes fodder, it still beats Hatterene 1v1, it beats Chansey 1v1, aaaand it still loses to Krookodile and is more helpless against Celesteela. There is of course counterplay to this set and its own longevity hurts it a lot but the point is that it turns a lot of standard Latias counterplay that you are forced to run into a laughing stock and therefore is problematic.
Again, this is a bit misleading. When you say "standard counterplay", I know that you are referring to "standard Latias counterplay", which I agree with. But what it fails to acknowledge is that there is sufficiently MORE counterplay available to this type of set, that you will usually have that available on your team. For example, Chansey, while unable to toxic it, can easily teleport out once it sees that's the set and go to someting offensive. Slowking as well, once it sees the Flame Orb, can pivot out. Jirachi can also U-Turn out. Who is going to realistically just stay in and do nothing against Latias instead of pivoting out? Nobody. And since Latias takes chip burn damage, things like Zeraora can actually KO it with Knock Off after SR + Burn Chip (I know you said Zeraora doesn't come close to OHKOing, but Knock will do 76-90). Once Hatt switches in and sees the Flame Orb, that is indeed unfortunate for it, but that's about the only one. So to say that your Latias counterplay is a "laughing stock" is incredibly unfair and only realistically applies to one Pokemon (Hatterene) while making it generally easier for most standard teams to deal with Latias.



...or you can abandon Psyshock and beat the entire tier with coverage that is resisted by literally two Pokemon, neither of which can switch into you until your set is fully revealed and by that point it's often too late. It is absolutely terrifying and arguably even more dangerous than the Life Orb + 3 Attacks set because very little reliably checks it defensively, and if it runs a Colbur Berry - uncommon but very viable, particularly on Krookodile-weak teams! - then it's got very little in the way of offensive counterplay too. It does struggle a bit more with breaking stuff like the Hat (still wins 1v1 more often than not) and Celesteela but those are not difficult Pokemon to take advantage of regardless since a lot of their checks just happen to be Latias's checks that end up on every team.
I don't think that this set is particularly "terrifying", but your points here aren't unfair like some of the previous points. So I will just respectfully disagree with it being a terrifying set, but agree with the concept that it is very good. I still think LO 3A set is much better.



Banning Latias will not fix this on its own, but it's a necessary step in the right direction if we want to work on making the tier healthier and more enjoyable.
I find the tier healthy and enjoyable already - I've had a lot of fun in UU the past few months. I didn't have much fun pre-DLC2 when every team was Zarude/Sylveon/Glowbro. People complain right now about ladder cheese, but I find it refreshing that there are so many possibilities that can work on teams right now. I'm not sure this is going to be the right direction at all to ban Latias. I have seen more variety in UU teams the past month than I've seen in the previous 6 months combined. That is something that should be celebrated and preserved. I think banning Latias is the wrong move.



Also I did read IP's post and acknowledge it here, but I'm not going to go through a whole back and forth with that one since I already did it here and it is very similar to Lily's post.
 

Lilburr

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This just isn't true at all. Once it nuzzles Latias on the LO+3A set, it wins, even after MFire. -1 252+ SpA Hatterene Draining Kiss vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 102-120 (33.8 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO . Latias cannot recover quickly enough while still trying to damage it. There is just absolutely no way a Hatterne will lose this battle, and it is not a "loose" check, it is a pretty air-tight solid check to the LO+3A set.
I think you misread? I literally said - and you quoted it - that Hatterene without Nuzzle doesn't check Latias, of course the Nuzzle sets do but no competent player is going to let you get that Nuzzle off regardless.

This is also a little misleading. It DOES lose significant threat level running Flame Orb or Grassy Seed, as those sets are much more manageable through ordinary teams. Flame Orb set is just not good, for reasons I stated earlier. Things like Chansey and Slowking can still come in on it and pivot out to an offensive check quite easily, so it really only works well against stally teams. I think you are downplaying this a little too much, which is what my main issue has been when reading many of the pro-ban arguments here. The counterplay is being so significantly downplayed very unfairly. It exists and it is very legitimate.
In the most respectful way possible you didn't give any reasons, you quoted an analysis that already downplays how useful the set is. Pivot Chansey is virtually unseen and Slowking teleporting into offensive checks is still fine with Krookodile but like I said, it doesn't work with something like Zeraora for this reason:

252 Atk Zeraora Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 208-246 (57.1 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
followed by a Psycho Shift burn meaning your offensive check is now setup fodder. Don't understand why Twilight's analysis said this is very poor against offense teams because that's simply not true, it's just poor against Scarf Krook teams.

And if we go down the list of Latias's traditional offensive checks, here's how they match up against it:

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 205-244 (56.3 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
followed by a burn

...I'm already struggling to find more, just so you know. Look through the VR yourself. Nothing even offensively checks it outside of these three and maybe Bisharp? So I'm not sure what I'm downplaying. There seriously is an extremely limited amount of them. You're telling me this counterplay exists but you're not telling me what it is.

I agree with you!!! (not the first sentence, but the ones after that). My problem is not that people are using the versatility to argue for a pro-ban. My problem is that they are doing that in combination with DISMISSING the versatility of the sets its checks can run. I think that is very unfair and one-sided to say "Well Latias can check Chansey with Flame Orb!!!" while then also saying "Boooo Max Sp.Def Slowking is so niche!!! (even though it also checks things like Nidoqueen)". If you're going to make the argument that Latias is versatile, go right ahead, but don't dismiss the versatility of its checks when they are brought up so easily.
I really am starting to feel like you didn't read or understand my post. You're missing the point entirely that these Pokemon lose so much more than Latias loses by running these sets. If you want proof of that, here you go:

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 252-299 (63.9 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slowking: 361-426 (91.6 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 324-382 (82.2 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 470-554 (119.2 - 140.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
[also this: 252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 294-346 (74.6 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO]
Close Combat has a chance to 2HKO as well. and will consistently do so after minor chip damage.

252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 153-180 (38.8 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 220-260 (55.8 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 Atk Krookodile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 246-290 (62.4 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(this is important because it avoids a 2HKO after losing its item)
252 Atk Krookodile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 356-420 (90.3 - 106.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

Slowking literally cannot afford to drop its defense EVs because it will be a terrible Pokemon against a lot of what it's supposed to check without it. Latias, on the other hand, can still break just fine without its Life Orb and is often even better off without it.

This is the main problem that I think we are seeing here and I think it needs to be severely cut back, and I'm glad you said this. I cannot believe how easily Latias's checks keep getting dismissed like this, and for what? Latias is powerful, we get that, the pro ban argument doesn't neeed fostering by trying to de-legitimize checks. Slowking CAN do something back - it can use Thunder Wave. Or Pivot out to one of Latias's many offensive checks that you already have on your team without needing to plan for it. AV Hatterenee, again, is a great check to the 3A LO set, and even to CM sets it can paralyze with Nuzzle and potentially win on paralysis, or switch to something else to offensively pressure it (since, again, there are lots of things that offensively pressure Latias, especially once its paralyzed). Celesteela forces the Latias player to initiate standard Celeesteela counterplay which is switching out Latias for a grass in hopes you don't Flamethrower, and switching again. It can't stay in against Celesteela because it does too little damage to it (35 with L Orb MFire), and takes too much from Heavy Slam and won't win the Leech Seed game. You will not force it out only "once", because by the time you switch in, take a MFire, and then Latias switches out again, and you protect, you are already back up to 80% or so HP. Jirachi I agree is a shaky check, not the best, but it can work. And Chansey I think everyone agrees is the most reliable answer. The recovery cycles are only bad if you switch into Psyshock, and even then you will still recover more than you will get damaged so it's usually all fine and Chansey is rarely threatened by this.
Okay, so to break this down one by one:
"Slowking CAN do something back - it can use Thunder Wave."
Which means dropping Teleport. Which means you can't pivot into Pokemon that are actually capable of threatening it. Not to mention that TWave Slowking is ridiculously hard to fit as is because most teams can't afford to drop Teleport viably, and it's been established plenty by now that dropping Slack Off is a meme.

"Or Pivot out to one of Latias's many offensive checks that you already have on your team without needing to plan for it."
There are four that outspeed it reliably or have priority to offset their inability to outspeed it. One of them (Bisharp) needs to win a mindgame, two of them (Zeraora, Mamoswine) can't OHKO it, and the last one (Scarf Krook) is very good against Latias but it's really, really easy to take advantage of because it's walled by literally half the tier. Tangrowth, Amoonguss, Tapu Bulu, Skarmory, Salamence, GMolt, these guys are on every single team and they all stonewall Krook into oblivion and make it dead weight more often than not that has ZERO purpose other than forcing Latias to switch.

"AV Hatterenee, again, is a great check to the 3A LO set, and even to CM sets it can paralyze with Nuzzle and potentially win on paralysis, or switch to something else to offensively pressure it (since, again, there are lots of things that offensively pressure Latias, especially once its paralyzed)."
Yes, both myself and IP agreed with you that AV Hat is a really good check. We were saying that the standard Hatterene - the CM set - loses to it. The problem is that AV Hatterene is ass against most of the rest of the tier, is incredibly susceptible to chip damage regardless and also that once it's revealed that it's AV (which happens as soon as it takes a Mystical Fire) the Latias user won't let it take a Nuzzle, and it's not like switching into a -1 Hatterene is the hardest thing in the world anyway.

"Celesteela forces the Latias player to initiate standard Celeesteela counterplay which is switching out Latias for a grass in hopes you don't Flamethrower, and switching again. It can't stay in against Celesteela because it does too little damage to it (35 with L Orb MFire), and takes too much from Heavy Slam and won't win the Leech Seed game. You will not force it out only "once", because by the time you switch in, take a MFire, and then Latias switches out again, and you protect, you are already back up to 80% or so HP."
You've outlined a lot here so let's go through this:
Standard Celesteela counterplay is not exclusively limited to switching in a Grass, and it's not like Amoonguss/AV Tang take much from Flamethrower anyway. It also involves switching into something like Slowking or Mew and using it as a pivot to get in one of the many, many Pokemon that significantly threaten Celesteela for free, or just brute forcing your way through it either with Latias or by switching into something like Victini, Rotom-H, or Volcanion - remember that the Celesteela *has* to click Heavy Slam to actually do much to the Latias, and if it clicks Mystical Fire as you attempt to Flamethrower the incoming Tangrowth, you have taken 70% for nothing. And this is assuming they don't have a Tentacruel.
Not covering Jirachi or Chansey, we seem to agree on those.

Again, this is a bit misleading. When you say "standard counterplay", I know that you are referring to "standard Latias counterplay", which I agree with. But what it fails to acknowledge is that there is sufficiently MORE counterplay available to this type of set, that you will usually have that available on your team. For example, Chansey, while unable to toxic it, can easily teleport out once it sees that's the set and go to someting offensive. Slowking as well, once it sees the Flame Orb, can pivot out. Jirachi can also U-Turn out. Who is going to realistically just stay in and do nothing against Latias instead of pivoting out? Nobody. And since Latias takes chip burn damage, things like Zeraora can actually KO it with Knock Off after SR + Burn Chip (I know you said Zeraora doesn't come close to OHKOing, but Knock will do 76-90). Once Hatt switches in and sees the Flame Orb, that is indeed unfortunate for it, but that's about the only one. So to say that your Latias counterplay is a "laughing stock" is incredibly unfair and only realistically applies to one Pokemon (Hatterene) while making it generally easier for most standard teams to deal with Latias.
Teleport Chansey + offensive check is something that's very rarely seen atm because Chansey is not a Pokemon that easily finds itself on offensive teams - it *can* work but it's rare. Balance and stall teams that use Chansey typically rely on Toxic Chansey as their Latias counterplay, this is just how it is. Slowking does not struggle with this issue quite as much because it fits on offense much more easily, so I agree that Slowking + Krookodile is still valid counterplay. Jirachi takes a burn and is rendered useless. Nobody is going to stay in and do nothing, but with the bulk this set often runs, you often don't have a choice but to let it set up because not every team is going to have the one consistent Latias killer in Scarf Krookodile. I showed the Zeraora calc earlier but I assume you calced 0 HP, which is not what the Flame Orb set runs:

252 Atk Zeraora Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 208-246 (57.1 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is assuming the Zeraora is Jolly but it also assumes the Latias doesn't have any Defense EVs, which it can quite easily run - you really only miss out on Terrakion by going down to 330, and the 80 or so Defense EVs make this calc even more pathetic.

I don't think that this set is particularly "terrifying", but your points here aren't unfair like some of the previous points. So I will just respectfully disagree with it being a terrifying set, but agree with the concept that it is very good. I still think LO 3A set is much better.
oki

I find the tier healthy and enjoyable already - I've had a lot of fun in UU the past few months. I didn't have much fun pre-DLC2 when every team was Zarude/Sylveon/Glowbro. People complain right now about ladder cheese, but I find it refreshing that there are so many possibilities that can work on teams right now. I'm not sure this is going to be the right direction at all to ban Latias. I have seen more variety in UU teams the past month than I've seen in the previous 6 months combined. That is something that should be celebrated and preserved. I think banning Latias is the wrong move.
I think most people agree that that metagame was very unenjoyable and somewhat poorly handled on our (the council's) end, we got complacent because DLC was constantly looming right around the corner and for that I apologise. And of course, you're entirely free to enjoy the tier rn - if you do then that's great!! That said, I think it's pretty hard to ignore how much people are complaining right now. There are so many complaints about the incredibly low quality of the ladder (cheese every other game, and who could blame them when cheesing is so easy and braindead due to teambuilding restrictions when using anything else?), the sheer amount of offensive threats that can't be prepped for adequately etc. and it's a sign to me, as both a council member and community figure, that something needs to change in order for the tier to grow and remain healthy. You're entirely within your right to think that the tier is enjoyable and that banning Latias is the wrong move, but I'm not sure you're looking at it for the right reasons.

Also I'm not gonna keep flooding this thread with a long ass back and forth, but I do want to continue this discussion with you (if you want to, of course). Ping me in the uu cord if you're up for it and I'll gladly try to explain myself better if needs be, but I'm not gonna respond here again even though I think this is a valuable argument to be having.
 

BigFatMantis

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I read Lily's post, and discussed on the Discord with her and IP at length about Latias, so I won't go into a back and forth anymore. But the post did give me an idea to help people who may be struggling with Latias, so I will dedicate this post to pointing all of the possible checks to Latias. What I have done is, go over the different Latias sets, look at the UU VR like Lily suggested, and will try to connect them in a way that allows me to find checks the most problematic Latias set, the 3A LO set:


:ss/Latias:
THE 3A LIFE ORB DEMON SET

In order of viability rankings, Defensive Checks include:

A+: :Jirachi:
A: :Chansey: :Celesteela: :Slowking:
B+: :Grimmsnarl: :Hatterene:
B: :Incineroar: :Stakataka:
B-: :Diancie: :Sylveon:

Faster/Speed Tie/Scarf/Priority Offensive Checks include:

S: :Latias: (yes it checks itself potentially) :Zeraora:
A: :Krookodile: :Mamoswine:
A-: :Alakazam: :Bisharp: :Diggersby: :Lycanroc-Dusk:
B+: :Chandelure:
B: :Doublade: :Scolipede:
B-: :Noivern: :Zarude: :Zygarde-10%:
C+: :Azelf:

Slower Offensive Checks that don't get KO'd:
A+: :Azumarill: :Tangrowth: (AV only)
A: :Primarina:
A-: :Moltres-Galar:
B: :Mimikyu: :Polteageist:

So that's 31 total checks for this set (10 Defensive, 15 Fast Offensive, 6 Slow Offensive), which is supposed to be the most broken set. Are they all perfect checks? No, of course not. Some of them are shaky. All of the slower checks, for example, are going to take big damage from something, but they can threaten it back with equal force. But they are all checks nonetheless. If you are having Latias problems, look at this list and see what fits your team most cleanly. There is something here for everyone to enjoy.

The other sets (Flame Orb set, etc) will have very repetitive answers, or different forms of these already listed checks, so I won't go into detail for each set. However, I will say that typically the Flame Orb set only runs Stored Power as its attacking move, so some dark types like Moltres-G suddenly become both Offensive and Defensive checks at the same time.

This post isn't meant to be argumentative, it's just a list I made taking the VRs and adapting them to Latias specifically.
 

Adaam

Al Capone Yoshi
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I think both sides are being a bit disingenuous to the other right now. Rattling off a list of checks and considering the raw total as the metric for brokenness is somewhat naive, while the pro-banners are being harsh to discredit some of these checks using hyperspecific scenarios and uncommon sets (cmon Lilburr what Hatt isn't Nuzzle these days l2p).

The following is nothing but facts and logic (and as a pro-Aegi voter you know it is).

That said, brewfasa hit the nail on the head. Latias might have a seemingly solid list of checks, but it's got incredible speed, typing, and one turn recovery to ensure its sticking around a whole match to either slowly pick you apart or just bodybag you from the get-go. Unlike breakers like Lycanroc and Terrakion, who have arguably less counters, keeping Latias out is a much, much harder task than any other breaker in the tier.

And really, we don't really have that many checks. Sure Chansey and Steela are pretty good stops, and it might never bust through Grimmsnarl and Hatterene. But Grimmsnarl and Hatterene are dogshit. Jirachi is dogshit and we are kidding ourselves in saying otherwise (plus it needs Wish + Protect + Status to effectively beat Lati, assuming you manage to break out of the Wish cycles). Most other Fairy-types like Prim, Azu, Toge take a chunk and a half from Psychic/Psyshock. Again, these would probably be enough but Latias simply does not die easily and after chipping the switch in the first time, its going to come back later and start causing pain.

Here are some replays of just showing how devastating Lati is over time:

odr vs Lyss - Lyss' Latias outlasts a hard counter in Stakataka while odr's Lati has a field day with Steel-type Scizor. Both players have tier staples that are just Lati food in Amoonguss and Rotom-Heat, so it finds ample turns to drop attacks.

TPP vs Bushtush - Dogshit Jirachi pretends to check Latias by taking half and U-Turning on it. With it being crippled, Lati proceeds to vore TPP's entire team.

gondra vs frisoeva - Lati kills half friso's team because Steel-type Skarmory, but friso still wins because its choiced. Still, it finds way too many free turns for such a fast breaker and takes full advantage of it.

basaninho vs Accelgor - This is just to show how unorthodox sets, while uncommon, destroy "standard" counterplay. Slowking is considered a great check (despite being CM fodder?) and this replay is a good example of how Teleport into Zera/Krook is not guaranteed

By the way these weren't cherry picked. I just clicked snake replays until I saw a Latias in it and 4/5 were Latias bodybags. Go figure.
 
Of course, then Scizor, Terrakion, Slowking, Salamence, Zeraora, Screens, HO, Stall ... until the whole tier is empty
This is not what I was getting at, I am saying if latias is going there are few answers to victini.
The other ones you listed are less of a concern, but victini right now is arguably the best offensive mon right now besides zeraora (However it seems like zeraora is likely going to rise to ou again.), considering that people are using quagsire just to check it, (Along with checking setup pokemon like .) this should be a sign that victini is restricting enough to warrant a suspect tests, not many teams like being hit by its coverage, and if it runs boots it can switch in and out safely even more so than the last two gens. Besides latias, the only other pokemon that can possibly wall it is quagsire (And even thats not guaranteed, as latias has better recovery in roost.). Because if latias goes, victini is going to be much harder to counter. So if latias is going, I can definitely see victini as suspect worthy, due to the teambuilding restrictions it pressures. But, if I were to vote on this one, despite not having a high enough winrate to vote, I would definitely vote ban on latias. (Even though I cannot vote yet.)
 
Last edited:

Twilight

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This is not what I was getting at, I am saying if latias is going there are few answers to victini.
The other ones you listed are less of a concern, but victini right now is arguably the best offensive mon right now besides zeraora (However it seems like zeraora is likely going to rise to ou again.), considering that people are using quagsire just to check it, (Along with checking setup pokemon like .) this should be a sign that victini is restricting enough to warrant a suspect tests, not many teams like being hit by its coverage, and if it runs boots it can switch in and out safely even more so than the last two gens. Besides latias, the only other pokemon that can possibly wall it is quagsire (And even thats not guaranteed, as latias has better recovery in roost.). Because if latias goes, victini is going to be much harder to counter. So if latias is going, I can definitely see victini as suspect worthy, due to the teambuilding restrictions it pressures. But, if I were to vote on this one, despite not having a high enough winrate to vote, I would definitely vote ban on latias. (Even though I cannot vote yet.)
Latias isn't a counter to Victini as you proclaim it to be. An unboosted V-create does like min 45% and it doesn't appreciate having to take repeated U-turns from the Choice Scarf or especially the Choice Band set. The only set it really comfortably walls is the special variant, which there are definitely more answers to than just Latias e.g. Chansey, Slowking, Incineroar, etc. The physical sets will always be difficult to pivot into because Fire + Electric coverage is so good but there are a decent amount of checks to that like Rhyperior, Slowking, Kommo-o, Seismitoad/Gastrodon, etc. The tier wouldn't be devoid of answers and restricted to just Quagsire as you seem to be inferring. The tier also has more offensive responses to it because of the lower Speed tier + a typing vulnerable to priority like Sucker Punch, Aqua Jet, and Accelerock. It will definitely get better if Latias does get banned but it isn't as unstoppable as you are describing. The main issue stems from figuring out what set it is.

As for Latias, I do think the tier will develop better with it gone. It's such a huge restriction on the teambuilder when it has the capability to muscle past all of its checks. The most comfortable pivot into it is Chansey and then you have other obscure specially defensive walls like Umbreon etc. Even then a +1 Psyshock is enough to pressure a Chansey as it's brought into 2HKO range after SR. Other defensive checks mentioned have been talked into enough detail already but I basically agree with what IP and Lilburr have said regarding those. Latias's typing, bulk, Speed, and ability provide it with so many opportunities to wallbreak so I don't personally agree that offensively pressuring this Pokemon is as easy as I've seen people claim it to be. I will hopefully get reqs sometime this week if I have time unless my mental booms from playing Goltres screens every other game. Either way, it looks like this might be a fairly close voting so I will be curious to see the outcome regardless.
 
as much as i didn't want it to be latias is definitely broken and there's really no reason to vote no ban. interestingly enough though i don't think I ever lost to one despite my team being av bulu / Tentacruel / scarf krook / skarm / cm run / sub kyurem. It definitely was a bitch to account for in the builder so i'm pretty sure if the ladder wasn't obnoxiously obsessed with using moutes screens i might have ended up losing to it once or twice. it's mostly the long term counterplay against latias that tips it over the edge because without a slowking it's god damn frustrating to keep finding ways around the 3 atks set.

this is entirely speculation but after Latias goes i'm pretty sure the next mon is gonna be terrakion and/or victini, lowkey think there's a conspiracy to make stall as dominant as it was last gen which really makes me want to vote no ban on latias
 

BigFatMantis

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Keldeo man, you just ain't the same...look at you!..the old keldeo in BW would never have been seen dead in UU, never mind not even being in the top 10 most used Pokemon in the tier. :(
This is so true - but maybe we just haven't given Keldeo a fair shake in the current meta. If Latias goes in a few days it could make a bit of a difference, although the grasses and azuzus and primas will still give it issues. Meanwhile, we are conducting Research of Keldeo in the latest Research Week just recently posted! Maybe this is the boost Keldeo needs to get back up on its high horse. :Keldeo:
 
This is so true - but maybe we just haven't given Keldeo a fair shake in the current meta. If Latias goes in a few days it could make a bit of a difference, although the grasses and azuzus and primas will still give it issues. Meanwhile, we are conducting Research of Keldeo in the latest Research Week just recently posted! Maybe this is the boost Keldeo needs to get back up on its high horse. :Keldeo:
Keldeo is simply slept on, people just don't use it that often these days due to new toy syndrome and other nukes that give it stiff competition such as Victini, Kyurem, Terrakion and the mon that's being suspect tested right now, Latias. Latias is also a fantastic counter to Keldeo as it resists both stabs of Keldeo and eats them up pretty well due to it's fantastic bulk. Keldeo is still on the underrated side of things as all it requires is a little team support and some playing around it's checks and counters. Slapping Toxic on Keldeo can cripple all of it's non Amoongus checks and Amoongus can be dealt with pairing it up with a fire types such as Rotom-H, Victini, Volcanion or Chandelure.
 
I feel like due to the sheer offensive unpredictabillity of victini and zeraora making them very difficult to wall reliably, they should both be suspected at the same time next. In fact, they both feel like s tier mons that definitely both need suspects sometime down the line. Maybe after the departure of those two keldeo will rise again.
 
I feel like due to the sheer offensive unpredictabillity of victini and zeraora making them very difficult to wall reliably, they should both be suspected at the same time next.
I beg to differ, especially with the zeraora part. while zeraora is an incredible offensive pivot and speed control, an unpredictable and difficult to wall threat is definetively not the adjectives I would use and therefore I think it shouldnt be considered for a suspect test.
First and foremost there are more than enough counters to zera, tangrowth completely stuffs out the physical sets (almost 4hko by blaze kick from a max attack adamant zeraora) amoonguss also does an incredible job walling the pivot set and completely destroying both bulk up and calm mind.
Both of these are incredibly realiable and cant get put into range easily thanks to regenerator.
Volt switch you say? Quagsire and nidoqueen are two great counters that prevent zera from pivoting out and can easily take it out without fearing its other moves, hell even rhyperior can take on zeraora one on one if it doesnt have grass knot
Even mons like the rotoms can invalidate zeraora with a burn and it is prone to revenge killing by the best scarfer (krookodile) and other beheamoths like CB azumarill.
There is enough zeraora counterplay to the point it isnt restrictive.

Dominant/popular doesnt inmediately mean broken
Sorry if I came off as agressive but we should be careful when talking about what should be banned, we cant ban whatever is the top 1# atm
 
Gonna be making a post in general talking about usage stats and the future state of the metagame in my eyes. It's kinda all over the place but I would rather put it all into one post just to get my thoughts out. First, I'm gonna be talking about the recent usage stuff seen from the February update and compared to snake usage and the beginning of January usages.

- first we need to talk about the elephant in the room (or metal bird in this case). For those who haven't noticed, skarm got 5% usage in OU, meaning if it was a normal shift it would have risen. What does this mean? It means that with skarm and future cases like it that we need to tier as if skarm isn't in the tier anymore. Say we were to suspect terrakion. Sure, skarm works, but what happens when skarm rises to OU. Is that the last step between not broken and broken? Skarm is certainly a reliable defensive mon in the tier, but its likely we wont have it soon, so soon lets treat it as if its not in the tier. this applies to any mon who has shown clear signs of rising to OU in the first mon of usage stats.
- if it was a normal shift we would have lost kyurem and gained the latter 3. Kyurem barely rose and barra barely dropped so I'm unsure if they will continue this usage or if it depends on the month. Buzzwole and Latios we are very likely to get, buzz will act as a reliable physical wall in the tier walling bulu, scizor, crawdaunt, mamo, bisharp, zeraora, and terrak assuming it stays. Latios will likely get banned quickly due to it being way stronger than latias and having very little defensive options to beat it.
- a rising star who has gotten a lot more usage compared to last shifts. It abuses metagame trends really well and I wouldn't be surprised to see it rise to UU by the april shifts.
- ok we need to talk about this. I get its super threatening and all, but I think its clearly over exaggerated how good this is. If it was truly the offensive behemoth some say, we'd see it crack at least 12% usage but no, it gets like 8. I get that usage doesn't equal viability but come on there is a clear correlation. Maybe this will change after the latias ban but either terrak isn't as threatening as some think it is or some are clearly overexaggerating about how good this is. Just really urks me to see how terrak is "super banworthy" but then why doesn't it get that much usage, it clearly has flaws. I'm not arguing whether terrak is broken or not, that's a discussion long after the lati test.
- also what is with smogon always wanting to ban stuff. I get mantis made that visual as a joke but it honestly bugs me to think that can be a possibility. Everyone is asking for more and more sorts of bans when all it will do is just send another one over the edge. Just because its very good like zera or victini doesn't mean its broken. Honestly re ask yourselves whether this is truly banworthy and how will the meta get better. does zera really "restrict teambuilding" by having me run amoongus or tangrowth, Pokémon that just so happens to beat other top threats like bulu, azumarill, and terrakion. Idk its too much, just needed to rant about it.
 
Screen Shot 2021-02-02 at 10.37.49 PM.png

Just got reqs today with this sun team I made: https://pokepast.es/d187385ad7fe2546

So yeah, I wanted to get on this suspect asap once I realized this wasn't an auto-ban.

Latias has no long-term checks in UU. Steel types were an excellent check in previous generations, but with its newfound access to mystical fire and aura sphere, they can barely be considered short-term checks. The three that come closest to checking it are Hatterene, Slowking, and Chansey, all of which are vulnerable to trick from choice sets. Hatterene can be easily worn down by strong attackers or even repeated mystical fires (which makes pivoting around it easier), Slowking can't do anything but teleport out (forcing a secondary teammate that can beat it), and chansey is vulnerable to trick, refresh, flame orb shenanigans, etc. and only fits on stall (and sun :P) regardless.

Additionally, latias has excellent 80-90-130 bulk and an excellent speed tier of 110, outspeeding the vast majority of the metagame. Its defensive typing combined with levitate gives it frequent opportunities to switch into battle, and make it immune to spikes and toxic spikes while maintaining a neutrality to stealth rock. Combine this with reliable recovery in roost/recover and you have a Pokemon that can stick around all game long and wear down its checks. This is further compounded by the lack of pursuit, which allows latias to spam its attacks freely without worrying about a forced death by dark types and scizor, removing one of its most common methods of counterplay in generations prior.

Latias is not unbeatable, but its constraints on the teambuilder and the pressure it exerts on a game to game basis are not healthy for the tier, and therefore warrants a ban from UU.
 

Kitten Milk

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hi sorry to add discourse late in the game but i just wanted to put a few general thoughts into the air on lati. i think a lot of the theorycrafting being done about checks and counters is super valid, but I think it distorts the reality of actual gameplay in favor of variable-stripped hypotheticals and is ultimately centered around balance playstyles.

first, i think something that hasn't been mentioned yet (maybe because it's obvious, but it's worth stressing) is the degree of punishment for latias clicking the wrong move into an offensive check or counter. something we used to talk about ~back in the day~ during suspect discussions for mons like hydreigon or victini was just how spammable their main offensive threat was. the idea of "click v-create chunk something", etc. latias doesn't really have that same flexibility. let's say your opponent has a defensive check (hatterene) and an offensive check (scarf ada krook or something idk) and you're running CM lati -- if you CM on the krook switch, or Draco on the hatterene switch, or whatever, you get punished. as someone who's a massive fan of volatility and prediction and gimmicks, i think it's super disingenuous to construct your arguments around always clicking the right move, and I think latias is especially the kind of pokemon that gets punished by not clicking the right move. both of its stabs have common type immunities frequent among its checks and counters, one of its stabs gives it -2 spA causing momentum loss, it has to have a boost / boost on the switch to break through many of its defensive checks, and it's weak to u-turn leading to potential momentum loss on correct predictions.

i'm not saying a pokemon needs to be /mindless/ to be broken, but what I'm saying is that there's a disconnect between the calcs and hypotheticals and the experience over the course of --many-- games.

i think the strongest testament to this claim in practice is that people aren't digging deep into other tiers to find niche absolute counters -- they're just making do with the extremely viable pokemon that check it and making sure they have several reasonable answers and trying to play around it correctly.

the other point i want to briefly touch on is the idea that latias is specifically quite good against balance and might struggle more against hyper offense or stall teams. for stall, it's a lot easier to find homes for the pokemon that are especially good at checking latias, and in combination it's rarely a threat (in my experience, at least, and I wasn't running any niche sets to counter it, just chansey / SpD Quag / scizor / articuno) -- against HO, Latias' propensity to create momentum sucks from draco stat drops, immunities, and u-turn weakness makes it less scary. latias really thrives the most against balance, and sometimes it seems like the majority of the outcry is from players who seek to make balanced teams that can check everything and should be able to win against anything played correctly. while there's nothing wrong with that approach or goal, I don't think it's as ubiquitous as a given indicator of health or brokenness as it's being implied.

i know this is a lot of words to not say a whole lot, but my main point is this -- if latias were as broken on paper as it seems in theory from the calculations and hypotheticals provided in this thread, we'd see a lot higher usage, lot higher win rate, and a lot more people playing niche bullshit to make do -- but none of that is happening.
 

brewfasa

Formerly fatty
is a Tiering Contributor
hi sorry to add discourse late in the game but i just wanted to put a few general thoughts into the air on lati. i think a lot of the theorycrafting being done about checks and counters is super valid, but I think it distorts the reality of actual gameplay in favor of variable-stripped hypotheticals and is ultimately centered around balance playstyles.

first, i think something that hasn't been mentioned yet (maybe because it's obvious, but it's worth stressing) is the degree of punishment for latias clicking the wrong move into an offensive check or counter. something we used to talk about ~back in the day~ during suspect discussions for mons like hydreigon or victini was just how spammable their main offensive threat was. the idea of "click v-create chunk something", etc. latias doesn't really have that same flexibility. let's say your opponent has a defensive check (hatterene) and an offensive check (scarf ada krook or something idk) and you're running CM lati -- if you CM on the krook switch, or Draco on the hatterene switch, or whatever, you get punished. as someone who's a massive fan of volatility and prediction and gimmicks, i think it's super disingenuous to construct your arguments around always clicking the right move, and I think latias is especially the kind of pokemon that gets punished by not clicking the right move. both of its stabs have common type immunities frequent among its checks and counters, one of its stabs gives it -2 spA causing momentum loss, it has to have a boost / boost on the switch to break through many of its defensive checks, and it's weak to u-turn leading to potential momentum loss on correct predictions.

i'm not saying a pokemon needs to be /mindless/ to be broken, but what I'm saying is that there's a disconnect between the calcs and hypotheticals and the experience over the course of --many-- games.

i think the strongest testament to this claim in practice is that people aren't digging deep into other tiers to find niche absolute counters -- they're just making do with the extremely viable pokemon that check it and making sure they have several reasonable answers and trying to play around it correctly.

the other point i want to briefly touch on is the idea that latias is specifically quite good against balance and might struggle more against hyper offense or stall teams. for stall, it's a lot easier to find homes for the pokemon that are especially good at checking latias, and in combination it's rarely a threat (in my experience, at least, and I wasn't running any niche sets to counter it, just chansey / SpD Quag / scizor / articuno) -- against HO, Latias' propensity to create momentum sucks from draco stat drops, immunities, and u-turn weakness makes it less scary. latias really thrives the most against balance, and sometimes it seems like the majority of the outcry is from players who seek to make balanced teams that can check everything and should be able to win against anything played correctly. while there's nothing wrong with that approach or goal, I don't think it's as ubiquitous as a given indicator of health or brokenness as it's being implied.

i know this is a lot of words to not say a whole lot, but my main point is this -- if latias were as broken on paper as it seems in theory from the calculations and hypotheticals provided in this thread, we'd see a lot higher usage, lot higher win rate, and a lot more people playing niche bullshit to make do -- but none of that is happening.
I don’t know what a variable-stripped hypothetical is because im dumb but I’ll do my best to retort.

I thoroughly believe most of the pro-ban side for latias is derived from in-game experience rather than the hypotheticals you’re suggesting. If anything, most of the “checks” people have thrown out are more on the hypothetical side, because, again, most of these switchins just kick the can down the road and hope to deal with latias later or simply can’t keep up with latias over the course of a match. You go on to say you don’t think people are digging deep enough for checks but fail to provide what you think these checks are. You might be right, but that points moot unless you do lol. Continually, I don’t get how you come to the conclusion that latias doesn’t have a “spammable” offensive weapon and then cite hydra as an example, when both most spammable weapon is draco lol. No mon in existence has as spammable of a move as vict as well, so again, idk what these comps are accomplishing. latias has all the power and coverage it needs and the limited switchins clearly shows that.

furthermore, you allude to the fact that lati might just be broken vs balance and not HO / stall. Well, actually you use the word “struggle” when at worst latias has a slightly worse matchup vs these teams. and my answer to that is, so? first off, latias is just as good vs offense as it is vs balance. it has the speed and bulk to provide a check to a plethora of threats and even has the ability to run a very good scarf set to help check boosters. hell, it’s even a great mon on those offensives due to the aforementioned reasons + being able to healing wish up any potential teammates. secondly, balance is called balance for a reason. For generations of mons, balance is the mid ground. It’s the most inclusive playstyle and, generally, forms the basis of a Pokémon metagame. Stall and offense tend to be branches of the metagame rather than the metagame itself, and more often than not when a metagame starts to sway one way or the other general distaste for the meta starts to take foot. I don’t think any play style should take precedence over another, but when stalls the only thing that can realistically handle something I think there’s an issue. Lastly, your point about usage and win rate is kinda ridiculous. Latias is comfortable top 6-8 usage, with 3 of the mons above it meant to be dedicated checks to it despite how well they actually do that job. if you’re really pulling your tiering knowledge from ~back in the day~ then you should know more often than not a broken mon doesn’t sit at #1 usage, support mons and answers to said mons usually do. AND even if it did sit higher in usage, the higher the usage the more stable the win rate.

lots of big words, not a lot of good arguments.
 

Lilburr

don't blink!
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UU Leader
think the above argument is good & well-constructed (and I kinda wish you'd made it earlier, it does touch on a lot of things that myself & others have probably not been accurate enough about) and i don't want to go through it piece by piece, there is one point i disagree with that i want to highlight.

i think the strongest testament to this claim in practice is that people aren't digging deep into other tiers to find niche absolute counters -- they're just making do with the extremely viable pokemon that check it and making sure they have several reasonable answers and trying to play around it correctly.
they unfortunately are and it's having extremely mixed results. for starters there just really aren't many - we saw a heatproof bronzong in finals of uu snake, which, yeah it won the game and it walls latias for all eternity minus the flame orb bullshit which is -still- loses to, but this argument always irks me because you have to factor in what using whatever mon on your team leaves you weak to, and in the case with bronzong, it is... every single pokemon on the vr between S and A- minus salamence, kyurem, and nihilego. yes, i'm serious, go check if you don't believe me, it loses to or loses momentum against every single other pokemon on the list.

there are other answers in lower tiers that have been explored... they just lose to it. sylveon cannot beat cm latias at all (though it does fairly well against the 3atks variant), diancie beats cm but not 3atks, togekiss beats most variants but is also generally terrible against the meta and needs either np dazzling gleam or thunder wave to even have a shot regardless, then you're getting into stuff like what, mantine? which isn't even reliable again and doesn't do a whole lot back. clefairy???

the reason people don't try to find niche counters is because a) they don't exist, you cannot counter latias, and b) the more reliable checks are pokemon that match up so awfully against the rest of the meta that they aren't worth running just to beat latias.

regarding usage points, i was beaten to it while making this post but latias was #6 overall in usage in uu snake, it has reached #5 in ladder stats and is very much sitting at a comfortable usage level. its winrate is admittedly meh (45% in uusd) but that is very often the case - for example, here's the stats for mamoswine, a pokemon that was pretty much universally agreed to be broken last uupl and ended up being banned:

Code:
| 10   | Mamoswine          |   48 |  19.67% |  47.92% |
not very impressive.

i think it's disingenuous to act as though people just aren't trying hard enough. we have tried very hard and exhausted plenty of options, and while i'm all for new innovations i'm certainly not interested in running calm mind alcremie to beat this thing. of course you are free to disagree and i think you have solid points but they're not really convincing me that latias isn't banworthy in the slightest :v
 
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