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np: Stage 3-3 - Maybe we should have used that warp pipe back in 1-1 after all...

The difference for Shaymin is that the best special attacking "Counter" is blissey, and it can beat it 1 on 1 thanks to Seed Flare and it's 80% drop in special defense. Thus, the only pokes who can reliable take Seed Flare are Registeel and Metagross... who are killed by Earth Power. MAYBE Torcoal or Regice could take it, but even then, the first is dealt with through EP, and the second through HP Fire. That means you have a nigh on uncounterable pokemon (maybe even completely uncounterable), and it STILL hasn't even used up it's fourth moveslot! (Granted, with it's movepool, all you can really have are Air Slash and Synthesis...) Or, it can take a more defensive route, because it is the fastest Sub-Seeder in the game. And it can still blow you away with it's two attacking moves as SF and EP.

No, let it be Uber. Perhaps the changes next gen will bring it down (and Garchomp as well)
 
Chomp is not being considered for a retest because of voter legitimacy reasons. It's being considered because it technically was never voted Uber twice in a row in the same metagame (or by a 2/3+1 margin). Jump is arguing that the Uber vote in Stage 3-1 should not be considered as one of Garchomp's two votes, because the metagame was very different from Stage 3-2. The initial argument against this, is that the vote should count because Garchomp was more underwhelming in 3-1 than it was in 3-2, since it had more checks like Latios and Skymin. However, the same should be said about Manaphy, who for some reason received more Uber votes in 3-1, than it did in 3-2 (meaning people found it more Uber in a metagame where it technically had more checks and should have been more underwhelming).

Although I am against re-testing Garchomp, the numbers support Jumpman's point.
 
Does this mean we're going to look into Latios and Skymin too? Along with Manaphy, who got voted ''more" OU in 3-2, than 3-1, both Latios and Skymin got voted ''more'' uber in 3-1 than Stage 2, even though there were a few more checks both (each other/ScarfChomp).

And I can't see how anyone can complain about Skymin's flinchhax when Jirachi, a pokemon which is luck on steroids with a better movepool, non SR weak, better typing and resistant to Bullet Punch is widely regarded as OU.

Finally, what's happening with Deoxys-D? It's been mentioned in the OoO thread, but since then has been forgotten. Is it going to be tested?
 
The main difference to me is that skymin is much faster than jirachi, who generally relies on a scarf. It also cannot be killed by magetzone. Skymin can run something like a life orb or expert belt and still outspeed almost the entire OU tier.
 
not to mention steel is a shitty offensive typing, while flying combined with seed flare's spdef drop and earth power hits everything.
 
No, Skymin is much different from Jirachi. Jirachi gets 60% flinch hax with a crappy attacking type - Steel, which hits neutral or better against Fire, Water, Electric, and other Steel types. Skymin gets 60% flinch hax that hits everything except Electric, Rock, and Steel for neutral or better.

Jirachi is murdered by Magnezone, Iron Head does nothing to Maggy and it does a whole ton with Thunderbolt. Timid/252 Magnezone doesn't outspeed Timid/252 Skymin, and outspeeds Modest/252 Skymin by 7 points - running anything less than 224 EVs means you're beat by Skymin, because it outspeeds and KOs with Earth Power. And also, Skymin has 127 base speed. Jirachi has 100. Even with Life Orb, Skymin outspeeds just about everything.
 
I've played some suspect matches today, and I have to say that this metagame is not that different from the current OU one. Manaphy is certainly a good Pokemon, but I'm using my standard OU team without any specific counter for it, and it's doing pretty well.

Also guys, this thread is not supposed to hold a discussion on whether we should retest or not Skymin and\or Garchomp\Latios. These decisions will be taken, if necessary, by Jumpman and Aeolus. This thread is for the current stage 3.3 test. As of now, posts who divert from the topic will be deleted and possibly infracted.
 
Paragraphs would have been better throughout the process but I suppose the investment of time made it inconvenient.
I find myself with little interest at this stage because Latias has been implemented in the OU ladder for ages.
So it's a Manaphy test in which, IIANM, she is still unable to use her signature move Heart Swap.
 
It isn't like Heart Swap is a particularly competitive move anyway. The only real use for it would be to outpredict sweepers as they come in and stat-up, thus stealing their boosts. Of course, the opponent can just set up again, and Heart Swap isn't worth wasting a moveslot on anyway. The loss of Heart Swap on Shoddy Battle 1 is negligible.
 
laddering so far and I've dominated with mono Manaphy. people really need to start using manaphy's other sets, it catches people off guard. i feel like manaphy is unexplored still.
 
Heart Swap isn't really that useful, but it's probably one of the best ways to counter those Calm Minding opponents. It's really fun getting an opposing CroCune to +6/+6, then Heart Swapping it.
 
How is it that you guys are calling heart swap "useless" and "negligible" without ever testing it? Everything that's been stated about it is just theorymon. I'm sure that when dp first came out no one really gave yache berry a good hard look.
 
Staraptor Call said:
It isn't like Heart Swap is a particularly competitive move anyway. The only real use for it would be to outpredict sweepers as they come in and stat-up, thus stealing their boosts. Of course, the opponent can just set up again, and Heart Swap isn't worth wasting a moveslot on anyway. The loss of Heart Swap on Shoddy Battle 1 is negligible.
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I disagree, Heart Swap is really great when used well (on stall teams) but granted, it's not likely to become common. And yeah I have played against heart swap manaphy before someone asks.
 
I can't see heart swap being very useful because you have to either bp stat downs to manaphy(horribly inefficient), or have circumstances be way too specific for it to be reliable. It also does not really have the movepool to support it, since if you are using rain+rest to stall you have to either give up calm mind, or give up surf.
 
I assume that this is going to be a month like the other tests?Also, with the return of the paragraphs, is it going to be based on a formula with CRE and suspect exp like 3-1 and 3-2, or rating and deviation like stage 2?
 
I suppose whether the lack of Heart Swap on Shoddy matters or not depends on what one considers the tiering primarily for. If the tiering is for Shoddy, then it's a null issue.

However, the tiers are also meant to apply for WiFi. There, it's possible Heart Swap could make Manaphy too powerful in OU WiFi play.

The ability to screw over Calm Mind Blissey, who otherwise counters Manaphy, might be enough to do the trick. Heart Swap could also work against Dragon Dancers - provided Manaphy survives the hit (could be sashed, or screened), it Heart Swaps, and is then faster and thus strikes back.

Focus Sash Heart Swap Manaphy springs to mind as a way to totally screw over Baton Pass teams. At best, the BP team revenge kills Manaphy with priority, then has to try and restart the chain, while the opponent has the advantage of information. If Manaphy Heart Swaps before it's attacked, and/or the BP team lacks priority moves, then Manaphy's going to rip through the BP team. In fact that might be the single biggest impact of Heart Swap Manaphy - it possibly counters not just a specific Pokemon, but an entire style of team.

(EDIT: Actually the BP team is probably best to regular switch as soon as Manaphy comes out, unless it set up entry hazards or damaging weather. But that still breaks the chain it's worked so hard to build.)

Of course there are other WiFi differences that could impact tiering, like the absence of Rotom Formes. But we still must bear in mind that Manaphy is without a doubt more capable on WiFi than on Shoddy 1.
 
cantab said:
I suppose whether the lack of Heart Swap on Shoddy matters or not depends on what one considers the tiering primarily for. If the tiering is for Shoddy, then it's a null issue.

However, the tiers are also meant to apply for WiFi. There, it's possible Heart Swap could make Manaphy too powerful in OU WiFi play.

The ability to screw over Calm Mind Blissey, who otherwise counters Manaphy, might be enough to do the trick. Heart Swap could also work against Dragon Dancers - provided Manaphy survives the hit (could be sashed, or screened), it Heart Swaps, and is then faster and thus strikes back.

Focus Sash Heart Swap Manaphy springs to mind as a way to totally screw over Baton Pass teams. At best, the BP team revenge kills Manaphy with priority, then has to try and restart the chain, while the opponent has the advantage of information. If Manaphy Heart Swaps before it's attacked, and/or the BP team lacks priority moves, then Manaphy's going to rip through the BP team. In fact that might be the single biggest impact of Heart Swap Manaphy - it possibly counters not just a specific Pokemon, but an entire style of team.

(EDIT: Actually the BP team is probably best to regular switch as soon as Manaphy comes out, unless it set up entry hazards or damaging weather. But that still breaks the chain it's worked so hard to build.)

Of course there are other WiFi differences that could impact tiering, like the absence of Rotom Formes. But we still must bear in mind that Manaphy is without a doubt more capable on WiFi than on Shoddy 1.
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While I can understand what you are trying to communicate, I'm not really sure if I agree with some of your posts. Every strategy useable on Shoddy is also usable on Wifi (bar the obvious pokemon formes, etc), meaning that there should be little to no change in how Manaphy is played. CMBlissey can be used on Shoddy, Manaphy needn't waste its time swapping the DD; it should simply attack straight off the bat, etc.

As far as Baton Pass chains are concerned, that is definitely a factor to consider, though. Despite this, Baton Pass teams are relatively scarce compared to stall, balanced, and offense, meaning that Manaphy still isn't sweeping the most common strategies with little difficulty.
 
Not much difference, I've hardly changed my team that I used in the other suspect test, except replaced garchomp with kingdra to take advantage of the raindance =P, Manaphy hasn't troubled me, likewise the previous suspect test I'm gonna say.
 
IcyMan28 said:
While I can understand what you are trying to communicate, I'm not really sure if I agree with some of your posts. Every strategy useable on Shoddy is also usable on Wifi (bar the obvious pokemon formes, etc),
Click to expand...

Regarding Manaphy, everything it can do on Shoddy it can do on WiFi - but the reverse is not the case. Thus, the suspect test progress on Shoddy will underrate Manaphy's ability in the WiFi metagame.

Of course, there's not a lot we can do other than tier Manaphy based on the Shoddy Suspect Test, and if it makes OU wait to see if WiFi players report "Heart Swap Manaphy is broken". By the time we've gone through a month of suspect testing, and another month or more waiting for views from WiFiers, Shoddy 2's probably out anyway right?
 
Hasn't Heart Swap been fixed? I haven't found a use for it, myself, but I'm pretty sure that it's been fixed and that it's allowed on the ladder.

Speaking of which, I've been having a lot of losing streaks, but overall I've been doing a little better than I did in Round 2. I haven't made any new teams, just changed my Garchomp team a bit. My rain team is doing a lot better than it was in Round 2, and until yesterday it was my most successful team. Not facing Tyranitar and Latias on the same team at every turn has been nice in that regard. All this right after an argument on Shoddy about how viable rain teams were lol.
 
cantab said:
I suppose whether the lack of Heart Swap on Shoddy matters or not depends on what one considers the tiering primarily for. If the tiering is for Shoddy, then it's a null issue.

However, the tiers are also meant to apply for WiFi. There, it's possible Heart Swap could make Manaphy too powerful in OU WiFi play.
Click to expand...

Aren't rotom forms not allowed in wi-fi due to technical restrictions or something? I don't really think you can claim the metagames are similar enough to demand "this much precision" in wi-fi tiers.

The ability to screw over Calm Mind Blissey, who otherwise counters Manaphy, might be enough to do the trick. Heart Swap could also work against Dragon Dancers - provided Manaphy survives the hit (could be sashed, or screened), it Heart Swaps, and is then faster and thus strikes back.
Click to expand...

Pure theorymon. Who uses Calm Mind Blissey? I mean I haven't played or anything so maybe while I was out CMBliss got HUGE but as far as I know it was one of those sets no one actually bothered with.

Name a Dragon Dancer Manaphy can take an Outrage from (I guess Gyarados but was Gyarados a huge manaphy check?).

You're really stretching theorymon a lot here...
 
Chris is me said:
Pure theorymon. Who uses Calm Mind Blissey? I mean I haven't played or anything so maybe while I was out CMBliss got HUGE but as far as I know it was one of those sets no one actually bothered with.

Name a Dragon Dancer Manaphy can take an Outrage from (I guess Gyarados but was Gyarados a huge manaphy check?).

You're really stretching theorymon a lot here...
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Yeah it's theorymon (and probably bad theorymon at that). But that's the thing - when it comes to Heart Swap, we only have theorymon and whatever WiFi players can report. Heart Swap's broken on Shoddy, so we can't get the real-world experience we need regarding it.

(FWIW, Max HP and Defense Manaphy can take a +1 Outrage from a Life Orb Mence.)
 
cantab said:
Yeah it's theorymon (and probably bad theorymon at that). But that's the thing - when it comes to Heart Swap, we only have theorymon and whatever WiFi players can report. Heart Swap's broken on Shoddy, so we can't get the real-world experience we need regarding it.

(FWIW, Max HP and Defense Manaphy can take a +1 Outrage from a Life Orb Mence.)
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So Max / Max Bold Manaphy can take a +1 Outrage from LO Mence. That really isn't too big of a deal because, assuming that it runs Heart Swap, the set would look something like this:

Manaphy@Leftovers
Bold; 252 HP / 252 Def / 6 SpA

Surf
Rest
Rain Dance
Heart Swap

So even if you survive the Outrage and HS the speed boost, you are left with a single attack to sweep with. And that's if 236 SpA Surf is enough to pick off a weakened Mence / Nite / Gyara. Heart Swap's niche is much more likely to be found in double battles, where Manaphy can pass off its Acid Armors and Tail Glows to its partner.

Offensively speaking, Manaphy has no need to Heart Swap - it has access to the much more reliable CM / TG to boost its stats, and it definitely doesn't have the moveslots to fit yet another attack onto its set. Heart Swap...is gimmicky at best, and despite all claims of theorymon, some things are just common sense; this would be such an example, IMO.
 
You're obviously forgetting that it learns Waterfall, which can also take advantage of the Attack boosts.
 
supermarth64 said:
You're obviously forgetting that it learns Waterfall, which can also take advantage of the Attack boosts.
Click to expand...
...But what does that change; how does that help it here? Manaphy switches in on the DD, takes a +1 Outrage next turn since it'll be slower and then steals the boost at the end of the turn so Manaphy will be at +1 attack and speed. ...Thing is though next turn you may be faster then Mence thanks to the speed boost, it's next Outrage will still finish you off, whereas Mence resists Waterfall, so even at +1, it won't really be doing too much to it, so that would be a lost battle. Manaphy just can't get the strength it needs by relying on Heart Swap. Ice Beam's an option I suppose, if you're willing to give up RD, Rest, or both for more attacking slots, but it's not affected by Heart Swap at all, so it's not too relevant here.

Really, Heart Swap is a total gimmick that's almost always outclassed by Tail Glow sets, as there's few situations where it would have worked out better than TG would have.
 
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