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Literally all of them can come in on any move an unboosted serperior has to offer, and straight ohko it. Explain how those are shaky?
The whole fucking idea of having checks to it is to prevent it from clean sweeping your team - which is what everyone is so worried about.
If you can force it out immediately after it gets a kill, it can't keep its +2, and then it remains a regular old shitty Serperior..
The 'have you played with it' argument is a fucking important one, lol. Ever heard of BW Hydreigon? In theory it has no counters, in practice it's utter shit. Not quite as extreme as Serp's case, as Serperior is definitely a tier-defining pokemon, no one's refuting that. Saying its uncounterable and has to get quickbanned to have a fun [super subjective lol] meta to play shows a lack of understanding on your part. Try playing the meta first before talking about bans from within it.
one time checks and most of the checks he named won't be able to do their job (outside of forcing serperior out once or maybe twice after u killed something).. thats shaky to me. how is a swellow/sneasel/accelgor/scyther gonna do well in the game if they take entry hazards and a move? lol. grass-types are good in nu, and serperior's bulk and speed along with a base 130 stab that pmuch gives it a np boost after being used is just too much. you cant even think 'oh let me sack this and i will force it out with a slower mons that take a hit..' because if you do let something take a hit, it will get a +2. you are forced to run mons that outspeed a base 113 speed pokemon and able to kill a grass-type with like 75/95/95 bulk to check it or some bad and fat av bs to counter. it can even switch out too!
miltank/gogoat/av muk are below average mons in nu
edit: you clearly didnt get my second point lol, i play this tier a lot and did use it so I really don't see why you guys are throwing around arguments about us not playing.. feels like you just don't have anything to say against a quickban!
For the record, the most dangerous trait I see in Serperior is that it is not just a 'ZOMG LEAF STORM SPAM' sweeper. Sure, everyone can just run a standard all-out attacker set and try to steamroll opponents with it, but it has options to mess about with opponents and support its teammates in ways it could not before.
Take this for example: SmashPass is already 'kind of cheap', but what it would really appreciate (read: send it over the edge) would be, say, a fast Dual Screener that boasts enough offensive presence to draw out the opponent's bulkier Pokemon (as opposed to faster hard-hitting sweepers) for your Shell Smasher to set up on. Hmmm....I wonder what would be the right mon for the job oh wait. Let me also address the fact that almost any Pokemon that can hope to stop the 'standard' all-out attacker set can do jackshit about Screens going up (not even Defog Togetic, as it gets Taunted), and the threat of the sweeping set forces you to go into your Serp counter, aka Screen fodder, every time. Even Uxie and Mesprit do not pressure most opponents to go into Screen fodders nearly so often bc they don't present as much immediate danger as Serp, not that they even stop Defog much less be saved as a wincon later like Serp can.
And it's not like Serperior is completely helpless against the tier's Grass checks either. Knock Off easily cripples / weakens like a good amount of possible Serperior counters (Roselia, Togetic, Sliggoo, AV Muk), or you could even run Wrap on Serp to not only land some chip damage on the foe (especially relevant on Serp counters with no reliable recovery), but more importantly prevent double switches.
What this means is that Serperior can adapt easily to many scenarios, and contrary (hurr hurr) to what people think, Serperior is not most deadly as a one-man-army, but is most deadly when it can easily provide support to teammates in situations where it cannot clean sweep the foe. Basically, it's a wincon that very easily supports other wincons, and also implies that Serperior is the one that picks its checks and counters, not the opponent, which is kind of ridiculous when you consider Serperior's speed, sweeping potential, and even half decent bulk. Serp's already great steamrolling potential, combined with the ease to put opponents into 'damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't' situations, is more likely unhealthy for the meta than it is beneficial.
I guess I can see why some people think it's at least somewhat manageable, but Serp really has to go imo. The pokemon that "counter" it fully are basically limited to Sap Sipper / grass immune pokemon, like Bouff, Miltank, and Gogoat (only the former most of the three is noteworthy) and a few uncommon/mediocre pokemon like AV Muk and maybe like eviolite sdef Lampent.
The argument for "I can fodder off a weakened pokemon and then goto my revenge killer" makes sense on paper, but you've gotta keep in mind that this means Serperior is getting a kill most of the time it gets in, it can easily switch itself out after you send in something like Scarf Typhlosion, and your team will eventually be warn out assuming Serperior gets in a few times (can do so on bulky waters or even weaker pokemon in general). At the same time, switching in most grass resists (i.e: Ferroseed, Klinklang, etc.), that could normally stand a chance at checking Serp, on Leaf Storm now means that you're facing a +2 Serperior that potentially will be able to take you out with hidden power or even another leaf storm now that it's boosted. This eliminates so many viable options for checking and countering Serperior. With Serp, NU teambuilding is restricted immensely because you need to carry one of two or three viable things to keep Serperior in check, gameplay revolves around Serperior and its imminent sweeping (or at least killing a couple pokemon) of unprepared teams, and the tier will simply not be anywhere near balanced for competitive play. So I think it's fair to say that Contrary Serp is worthy of a quick ban.
How can you prevent a Pokemon with 130 BP STAB Nasty Plot and 113 Speed from setting up? lol
The fact that you have to use Sap Sipper Pokemon (which hint hint mostly suck in NU or don't fit on some playstyles) only to account for a Pokemon is quite ridiculous in my opinion. I guess Serperior isn't sweeping prepared team but I see it more as a wallbreaker anyway and once your Vileplume is left at 15% after having "countered" Serperior I will be more than happy to clean up with Lilligant or w/e. Grass types are already good in NU but this is just a next level threat that is just unhealty for the NU tier. I won't say the word centralizing because I hate that argument but seriously this thing is a terrifying wallbreaker to any team not having Miltank/Bouffalant :o
I really hope this post doesn't get deleted because it would be completely unjustified as I only expressed my opinion and I am not involved in the NU tiering process whatsoever. I am not arguing so just read this and thino about it and I'll be happy.
What I remember from dealing with Contrary Serperior when I was a noob, Noctowl is probably a good way of dealing with Serperior. Whirlwind, Roost, Defog, Air Slash on an SDef set means it can take any hit from Serperior and phaze it out, heal off the damage or just kill Serperior if it is already weakened.
Though if you have to resort to Noctowl of all things, it might be better to ban Serperior anyway.
Flareon also deals decently with Serperior, but lack of Defog means the screens remain up though. It lacks Whirlwind too, but it has Roar so the end result is the same.
However, Flareon isn't that good either as far as I know, and I think both lose to Aqua Tail regardless... that and they are weak to Stealth Rock and may not find time to use their recovery moves (Roost and Wish+Protect respectively).
I'm sorry, but if we're saying the fact that Serperior gets Aqua Tail makes a proposed check not a check, then I don't think we're going to get anywhere here.
Serperior always had the ability to run either a Special or a Phyiscal Set (CM or SD), CM was the only consistent set (Leafeon does SD's job much better). Just because the special set got better doesn't make the physical set any less ass.
It''s also ridiculously easy to just double into a fighting type on the desperation play by the opponent to switch into Bouffolant/Miltank on your Serp and do heavy damage. I've won games (6-0) (5-0) where serp doesn't even get off a leaf storm, but my team plays off the opponents predictability (...reminds me of Smash Pass......ban that shit too).
Ban soon, I'd like to ladder again ;)
Eww, laddering. But actually, that's about right. I've found that it's not necessarily the damage that Serperior does that is the threat - although a +2 Leaf Storm isn't at all weak - but just the threat of the damage. Switching into all the checks/counters can be seen from a mile away and accounted for. Also, I was actually have a Serp + BandSawk + ScarfTyph core 0_0
Since I'm gonna have to make a decent post, otherwise Mont will just delete it, here go something I guess
At the moment with Serperior in the tier, teams are relying on a Sap Sipper mon to check them. Whilst looking at the Sap Sipper mons that are actually viable, they are all Normal and/or Grass type barring Marill, so by pairing Serperior with a Choice Banded Sawk as well as Scarf Typhlosion, you beat every single Serperior check in the tier, whilst having a check to it yourself, as Typhlosion outspeeds it.
Gastro Acid Serperior is so godly, removing your opp's Sap Sipper on the switch in or even opposing Serps' Contrary allows it beat the only mon that Sawk+Typh don't beat without prio damage.
BandSawk outspeeds a lot of the Normal-type Sap sippers and straight OHKOs them with CC, putting immense pressure on your opponent, making them less likely to switch them in, in fear of a double switch into Sawk.
ScarfTyph outspeeds Sawkbuck as well as Serperior itself, allowing for it to come it, and prevents Serperior from setting up and sweeping you, as well as help to clear put the Normal and/or Grass-type Sap Sippers.
Serperior @ Life Orb / Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power Fire
- Giga Drain
- Gastro Acid / Dragon Pulse
Sawk (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Ice Punch
You'll typically have both hidden power fire/ice and dragon pulse. Dragon pulse while not giving super-effective coverage on anything relevant gives it neutral coverage on things like fire types and sap sipper mons.
Resisted Leaf Storm hits harder than Dragon Pulse. Unless Sliggoo is a really big problem or if u want to hit Bouffalant harder (miltank has recovery so it doesnt help anyways) Dragon pulse isn't quite necessary.
Resisted Leaf Storm hits harder than Dragon Pulse. Unless Sliggoo is a really big problem or if u want to hit Bouffalant harder (miltank has recovery so it doesnt help anyways) Dragon pulse isn't quite necessary.
All you're hitting with Dragon Pulse is Bouffalant, Miltank and Sligoo who Serperior loses to(if Sligoo has Rest which it should). Bouffalant shrugs off unboosted 75 SpA Dragon Pulses, Miltank has recovery. I didn't mention Girafarig, Marill(no matter how op) or other dragon types because their usage is very low and really shouldn't be worried about.
Gastro Acid already proves more viable of that slot than Dragon Pulse because it nullifies Sap Sipper allowing Leaf Storm to work on them.
Reflect is another neat option as well, predict the switch to Bouff or Miltank; or be behind a substitute and setup allowing your team to setup in their faces(like Gorebyss, Feraligatr, Gurdurr and more)
Taunt allows you to stop Phazers and Hazers from desperately nullifying your special attack boosts, and to stop Defog.
Giga Drain gives you a reliable form of recovery to maintain bulk, and a accurate move to sweep with when you are at +4 or +6. Synthesis and Leech Seed can work in this respect as well, but Giga Drain deals notable damage keeping up offensive pressure if you have boosts.
Substitute is obvious, to stop status ailments from screwing Serp.
All you really need is Leaf Storm and Hidden Power Fire for attacks since resisted Leaf Storm outdamages neutral Dragon Pulse. HP allows you to hurt grasses, bugs, Pinard, Articuno and Klinklang harder.
This set is really good right now, a lot of Water-types have their hands tied behind their backs in this meta because of Brokeplant but this is one of the few that can still hold its ground. At +2 with Naive, you beat out Serp by one point, and Sturdy WP even lets you take a hit from it if you need to. Specially based with Hydro Pump and Ice Beam (creds to Cased for using it in XY :o) is also really nice right now, you do way more to Mega Steelix (solid 2HKO even to specially defensive variants) and lure a lot of physically defensive shit in general like Gourgeist and Granbull and just bop them. I run Stone Edge primarily for Mantine which is getting more popular (also helpful for other specially defensive stuff that might switch in when they see Hydro / Ice), you can run HP Grass with Timid if you hate Toad or Poliwrath but otherwise SE is better. You could also run Surf for an accurate STAB but power difference sucks as always.
Not sure why everyone is complaining about Serperior. There's an amazing hard counter that fits onto every team.
Linoone used Simple Beam!
The opposing Serperior acquired Simple!
The opposing Serperior used Leaf Storm!
Linoone lost 100% of its health!
The opposing Serperior's Special Attack severely fell!
Scarf Simple Beam Linoone takes Serperior's +2 boost, inverts it, doubles it, and shoves it six inches up Serperior's slithering ass. This set also counters top metagame threats such as Malamar and even the above posted Carracosta set, forcing it into dropping its Defense and Special Defense down -2/-2 and allowing you to revenge kill it with Sturdy regular Steelix. Give it a try some time. You won't be disappointed. Well, you will, but it'll be funny.
Holly isn't real enough to use Unaware Swoobat, smh
Edit: yo boltsandbombers if ur going to argue my points at least shit on Holly's posts too smfh again. I mean for christ's sake Swoobat gets Skill Swap + Simple anyway if that is the direction I want to go >.>
ok so I wanted to discuss some answers to Serp I've thought up/seen on the ladder that nobody has discussed yet as far as I know
Vileplume @ Black Sludge
Ability: Effect Spore
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Sludge Bomb
- Giga Drain
- Sleep Powder
- Synthesis
SpDef Plume is a very cool answer to Serp as it will, at the worst, be a trade off vs Life Orb Serps and be a very hard answer to Lefties Serps.
+2 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Vileplume: 57-67 (16.1 - 18.9%) -- possible 8HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 SpA Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Vileplume: 142-168 (40.2 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Vileplume: 36-43 (10.1 - 12.1%) -- possibly the worst move ever
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Vileplume: 185-218 (52.4 - 61.7%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
8 SpA Vileplume Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 222-264 (76.2 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This one is probably more gimmicky, in all honesty, but it's still a fairly reliable check with access to both an kill move with Hurricane and a great option for Sub Serps with Bug Buzz. It's a little more free range than sash viv because this one doesn't have to worry about being outsped and preserving the sash until a sack happens. U-turn is great because this thing has about 50 switch ins in the tier and you can only put one thing to sleep. It's a pretty bad switch in because it'll be blatantly obvious you are scarf, but can be used in a "last mon" situation because (outside of HP Rock) Serp can't kill viv without rocks. Hell, even regular sash viv deters serp from setting up as long as you're good about keeping rocks off the field.
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Vivillon: 205-242 (68.1 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Vivillon Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 240-284 (82.4 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (kills after sub and lefties)
252 SpA Vivillon Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 294-348 (101 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Lampent @ Eviolite
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Fire Blast
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split
- Clear Smog
The old school puff killer is back as a pretty cute check to serp. You have a couple of options on what you can do with Lampent when against serp. Switch in with Rocks, take two Leaf Storms, kill with Fire Blast, then have an essentially dead lampent OR spam Clear Smog/Pain Split so you can safely bring in a scarfer or bulky mon that can take a Leaf Storm and kill back (which I'm noticing there is a large amount of.) If it's lefties serp, you're pretty safe as you can easily bring it down to ko range by spamming clear smog, fire blast (in case of sub), and pain split.
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Lampent: 62-74 (19.1 - 22.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Lampent: 126-148 (38.8 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Lampent Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 236-282 (81 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (kills after two leaf storms)
252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Lampent: 48-57 (14.8 - 17.5%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Lampent: 97-114 (29.9 - 35.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
And it's not like these mons are entirely dead weight, weird answers for Serp either. Lampent can check Lilli, Plume, Accelgor (rising in popularity), Yama, Sawk, Jynx (unless nasty plot LOrb lol), Cryo, and other assorted mons. Vivi provides valuable bug coverage for malamar, a sleep move that's basically just spore, and a spammable STAB in Hurricane which is relatively hard to switch into. Plume is still able to soft check a lot of the fighting types without investment and can beat Rotom and Rotom-S.
My opinion on serp's changed a fair bit since I've started playing with it. It isn't really some offensive juggernaut that can sweep teams once it gets the opportunity to grab just one Leaf Storm boost. Mons like Hariyama, Scyther, and Magmortar can all take any coverage serp wants to throw at them and retaliate back. It's for sure a meta game defining threat and if there were any reason to SUSPECT it then it would probably be how awkwardly limiting it is in the teambuilder.
I've been using SpDef Vileplume too, but I find that a more effective spread for it is 248 HP/ 92 Def/ 168 SpDef Calm as it lets you always live a Leaf Storm+Hidden Power Fire after SR and a layer of Spikes while letting you avoid the 2HKO by Jolly Band Sawk's Close Combat after SR 80% of the time. It definitely shouldn't be your only Fighting check, though.
Playing a lot with Serperior, I would say that while it's a very centralizing and I would argue broken threat, it's at the moment very limited by the ubiquity of its checks and counters, with Scarf Scyther and Typh usage going up and Bouff being literally in like 50% of balance/bulky offense teams.
The metagame is definitely saturated with answers to Serperior right now, but it feels necessary. The real problem is Serperior's Speed. Very few viable Pokemon naturally outspeed Serperior, which means that it can come in on many Pokemon in the metagame and start using Leaf Storm with no repercussions. It leaves the player facing the Serperior in a precarious position, especially when playing offense, where they need to keep up offensive pressure to prevent Serperior from getting the chance to come in. But every time a Pokemon that is OHKO'd by Leaf Storm nets a KO, Serperior still manages to find its way back onto the field. This is why we're seeing so many Bouffalant and Vileplume and obscure counters that hold no merit in the metagame aside from answering Serperior. If you have a dedicated response to Serperior, you don't have to play so carefully around it. Serperior might seem less broken in practice because of how many dedicated answers to it we're seeing, but it's the way Serperior warps the metagame around itself that makes it so broken.
