Deoxys-S was pushed back into Ubers already, yes. Latios might be the next to go, but honestly that depends on how we vote.
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np: Stage 3 - Family Reunion ("This Is Why I Created" Remix)
- Thread starter Jumpman16
- Start date
Deoxys-S was pushed back into Ubers already, yes. Latios might be the next to go, but honestly that depends on how we vote.
I haven't been on the Suspect Ladder as of yet, but if I started now and played a decent amount (only 1 exam left so I can get a good hour or so a night), would I be able to reach the requirements?
I really want to get involved see, but I don't want to go wasting my time.
I really want to get involved see, but I don't want to go wasting my time.
I have a question. Would it matter if you played many games in a few days as opposed to a few games every day. For example, would one get more sexp if he played 3 matches every day in a week, instead of playing 21 matches in only one day in that week?
Also, what happens if your sexp qualifies for one suspect but not for another? Like you play plenty of games with Garchomp, but you haven't played enough with Manaphy (I've played some matches with it, but I haven't seen many Manaphy).
Also, what happens if your sexp qualifies for one suspect but not for another? Like you play plenty of games with Garchomp, but you haven't played enough with Manaphy (I've played some matches with it, but I haven't seen many Manaphy).
So far with using my Sandstorm + Skymin team (unusual combo but I'm trying out lots of things!), I've ran into Latios. I've also seen it as the starter Pokemon! I've quite fearful since it's movepool is varied.
However, it still is a bit fragile and Tyranitar remains to be a good counter against it. It can take most of what Latios throws at it and suffers a OHKO with Crunch.
But back with Skymin, I am right now trying to use it as a late-game sweeper, when many Pokemon have taken lots of damage. Emphasis on late game because I have a Sandstorm team, and Skymin is fragile and can't afford to be out for too long. I plan to use it a bit more and then try it out with a more stall-based team.
Just so I am clear here (sorry for the redundant question): We will be getting SEXP if we battle a Suspect (but not as much as if we actually use our Suspect in battle)? I just don't want be penalized heavily for being able to counter Suspects with non-Suspects and thus sweeping teams before my late-game sweeper Suspect comes out. Thanks!
However, it still is a bit fragile and Tyranitar remains to be a good counter against it. It can take most of what Latios throws at it and suffers a OHKO with Crunch.
But back with Skymin, I am right now trying to use it as a late-game sweeper, when many Pokemon have taken lots of damage. Emphasis on late game because I have a Sandstorm team, and Skymin is fragile and can't afford to be out for too long. I plan to use it a bit more and then try it out with a more stall-based team.
Just so I am clear here (sorry for the redundant question): We will be getting SEXP if we battle a Suspect (but not as much as if we actually use our Suspect in battle)? I just don't want be penalized heavily for being able to counter Suspects with non-Suspects and thus sweeping teams before my late-game sweeper Suspect comes out. Thanks!
probably, depends on how good you are
doesnt matter
we're going to set a minimum threshold for suspect exp for all of them, like if you have a lot of exp with three or four of the five but for some reason didnt see manaphy and/or latias "enough", then i dont know how qualified you are to be able to sound off on how uber or not uber garchomp is if for whatever reason you just didnt see 1 or 2 of the suspects "enough". aeo and i will determine that baseline when we have all the numbers though
yep. again, why would i care "as much" if you're able to counterteam against suspects that i've urged everyone to use, but you dont actually use suspects in battle to do that? you wont and shouldn't get as much sexp for that
I understand the thinking behind this, but I also disagree with what it promotes. I thought the whole point of Stage 3 was to test these suspects together in the standard OU metagame. In every metagame, teams are created to counter and stop all of the threats. If everybody only opts to use the suspects, then that creates a very artificial environment than what things would really be like, should they be in OU.
I think that if you are able to be successful on the ladder without even using most of the suspects, that still says a lot about your understanding of the suspects and how they may be stopped (or, if they are so blatantly uber, how they can't be stopped). If everybody is whoring out every suspect, just so that they can vote, then we're just seeing which suspects beat which suspects, and if anything, I think that gives you less "real" experience on how they would be in an OU environment.
IMO, people should use what works. If everybody started only using what worked instead of all of the suspects, then of course certain suspects will not get tested as much as others, due to some just completely outshining others. However, this should not be a big deal, because that means the less-used suspects will most likely not be voted uber (why should they be voted uber if they weren't even good enough for people to want to use them?) and be re-tested with the uber-voted suspects gone.
Just throwing my two cents out there. I know you guys have an intricate SEXP equation all fleshed out and I don't mean to demean it or anything. I appreciate all you guys have done to help this community out, but I think you should consider this.
Thanks for listening.
The fact is that, in this suspect test, you don't need to achieve a preset rating/deviation, so "being successful" on the ladder isn't exactly the goal you should play for.
However, IIRC at the end of the Latios test some votes where rejected just because those users did't use the suspect itself, though they met the requirements. Finding a way to counter the suspect is important to say if it's too powerful or not for the OU environment, but if you don't use it directly, then you're basing your possible vote mainly on how your opponents used the suspect against you. Technically your opponents may not have used the suspect to its full potential, so you may think that something is OU when, in fact, it isn't. Having direct experience with the suspect is as important as finding a way to counter it, in my opinion.
I partially agree with you, when you say that using the suspects all togheter doesn't give you a real knowledge of how said suspects could be in a OU environment, but using 2-3 suspects and 3-4 OU pokemons on the same team is a good compromise in my opinion. By the way, a team made of 5 suspects would be quite hard to play considering that 4 out of 5 suspects are special attackers and some of them share the same counters.
I've tried using Suspect Rain a little, and here are my thoughts:
1) Manaphy is a better rain supporter than rain sweeper. 100/100/100 defenses give him a ton of bulk, and Hydration makes him immune to status and capable of instant full recovery with Rest. He also has access to U-Turn for passing ran to a sweeper, and Waterfall with 252 attack EVs in the rain should almost always 2HKO 252 defense calm Blissey factoring leftovers (but not stealth rock), as well as dealing more to Tyranitar in the Sand than Surf would.
2) Latios can be pretty beastly in the rain. Psuedo-STAB on Surf and 100% Accurate Thunder means that his coverage moves are suddenly quite a bit more powerful in their own right. LO Thunder easily OHKOs Skarmory, Rain-boosted Surf does a sizeable chunk to Bronzong, and his Dragon move of choice deals with everything else
3) Honestly though, these additions don't make suspect rain any better than regular rain. It's still beaten by the same strategies (good prediction to run the user out of LO damage and rain turns, Tyranitar coming in and ruining your fun), and it can still sweep people who are unprepared for it.
1) Manaphy is a better rain supporter than rain sweeper. 100/100/100 defenses give him a ton of bulk, and Hydration makes him immune to status and capable of instant full recovery with Rest. He also has access to U-Turn for passing ran to a sweeper, and Waterfall with 252 attack EVs in the rain should almost always 2HKO 252 defense calm Blissey factoring leftovers (but not stealth rock), as well as dealing more to Tyranitar in the Sand than Surf would.
2) Latios can be pretty beastly in the rain. Psuedo-STAB on Surf and 100% Accurate Thunder means that his coverage moves are suddenly quite a bit more powerful in their own right. LO Thunder easily OHKOs Skarmory, Rain-boosted Surf does a sizeable chunk to Bronzong, and his Dragon move of choice deals with everything else
3) Honestly though, these additions don't make suspect rain any better than regular rain. It's still beaten by the same strategies (good prediction to run the user out of LO damage and rain turns, Tyranitar coming in and ruining your fun), and it can still sweep people who are unprepared for it.
Ideally, one should have experience playing against the suspects with and without their own suspects, to give themselves the best idea of how each one would fit into the standard metagame. I'm just not sure 6-8 weeks is really enough time for that, you'd need to make a new team every week or play a boatload to feasibly do that.
The only problem I've found is that, even though this may be the case, Manaphy is a top five rain sweeper anyway. You can get away with Rain Dance on more pokémon than you can find heavy attackers to take advantage of that rain.
The only problem I've found is that, even though this may be the case, Manaphy is a top five rain sweeper anyway. You can get away with Rain Dance on more pokémon than you can find heavy attackers to take advantage of that rain.
I normally don't quote an entire post like this, but in this case I feel that I must because these words ring perfectly true to my own beliefs. Indeed I think that by requiring people to use the suspects the metagame is transformed into an artificial one that will certainly not represent the actual OU metagame were the suspects to descend into OU.
This is true because any single Pokemon rising or falling in usage (and here we are talking about five distinct ones instead of just a single one) can alter the status of a metagame immensely. If Heracross suddenly rose to the top 10 usage spots in OU, for example, I bet that the OU metagame would change very much to reflect that change (and Heracross is not even the most extreme example of this; imagine if Blissey suddenly fell to 40th!).
edit: I am not saying that experience with the suspects is unnecessary; of course it is necessary. I just think that this whole SEXP requirement thing has some very unfortunate consequences.
No, that's just how suspect always is in general.
and is exactly why i have tossed out so many submissions that even vaguely reference centralisation
i know how "centralized" the "metagame" becomes in suspect tests, and that is why it's not really a metagame, especially not here in stage 3. there's five possibly uber pokemon thrown into OU, of course it's going to centralize things around them. but "test these suspects together in the standard OU metagame" is not the point. we're not just playing to play. as ive stated in various threads for a year and very early in the op:
Stage 3: Analysis of all the Suspects in the standard metagame with the knowledge of which are considered Uber and OU in a Suspect-free metagame.
we aim to learn more about how these suspects perform amongst themselves, since we can (or should) accept that possibly none of them are uber when they're all together, which they possibly should be since they were all respectively tested in isolation.
"That's not to say that you shouldn't use DXS or that doing so will not impact your Suspect EXP—it will just do so to a lesser degree than will experience with Skymin, for obvious reasons."
what more do you need to hear than "using suspects gives you more exp than just facing them"?
i have. don't worry about it
i know how "centralized" the "metagame" becomes in suspect tests, and that is why it's not really a metagame, especially not here in stage 3. there's five possibly uber pokemon thrown into OU, of course it's going to centralize things around them. but "test these suspects together in the standard OU metagame" is not the point. we're not just playing to play. as ive stated in various threads for a year and very early in the op:
Stage 3: Analysis of all the Suspects in the standard metagame with the knowledge of which are considered Uber and OU in a Suspect-free metagame.
we aim to learn more about how these suspects perform amongst themselves, since we can (or should) accept that possibly none of them are uber when they're all together, which they possibly should be since they were all respectively tested in isolation.
realize the words you are using here. "a lot" about your understanding..."less" real experience...you see that they're quantitative descriptors, right? i made the sexp formula and assigned quantitative weights to the 15 or so variables. i hinted at this weighting in the same op:
"That's not to say that you shouldn't use DXS or that doing so will not impact your Suspect EXP—it will just do so to a lesser degree than will experience with Skymin, for obvious reasons."
what more do you need to hear than "using suspects gives you more exp than just facing them"?
i have. don't worry about it
I'm not sure that's much different than trying to justify having one broken pokémon under the "it's balanced because everybody can use it!" mantra. (e.g. RBY Mewtwo) If largely the only checks for each suspect are the other suspects, it becomes a sort of Uber-lite group within OU. Instead of being "everybody has to use [this] pokémon to win" it would just be "everybody has to use [these] pokémon to win."
I was wondering about the possibility of trying suspect without Latios and Garchomp as these two are, as im sure many of us feel, deserved of the Uber tier. It would focus are attention more on some of what i feel are the less obviously tiered suspects ie Manaphy and Shamymin-S. I dont have time to explain my reasons for exactly why they are uber but i will. Just want some feedback on this.
Thanks.
Thanks.
Latios maybe, but me and quite a few other people would disagree about Garchomp. The general consensus from what I've seen is that Latias and Garchomp are OU, the rest are Uber.
I don't really think you can single out some of the suspects for going early when there's not a consensus that they're Uber.
I don't really think you can single out some of the suspects for going early when there's not a consensus that they're Uber.
The problems with Garchomp are sand veil and its impressive physical sturdiness: if you think that you're not even sure to OHKO it with a +2 Scizor's bullet punch, then you have an idea of how hard to revenge kill that pokemon is, not to mention that with sand veil even a faster pokemon carrying a move capable of killing it must pray to hit when sandstorm is active. Latios may hit a little harder with a specs'd draco meteor (though a CB or SD outrage is still ridiculously powerful), but at least it's a lot easier to revenge kill thanks to the pursuit weakness.
I my opinon the only suspect which may be immediately removed from the ladder is Latias because she's clearly OU. Everything else is still controversial in my opinion, though, I have to say that Manaphy doesn't seem uber for me now like it did't seem uber a month or so ago (when I voted it OU).
edit: yes, I obviously meant removing Latias from the suspect list - assuming she's clearly OU - not from the ladder.
I my opinon the only suspect which may be immediately removed from the ladder is Latias because she's clearly OU. Everything else is still controversial in my opinion, though, I have to say that Manaphy doesn't seem uber for me now like it did't seem uber a month or so ago (when I voted it OU).
edit: yes, I obviously meant removing Latias from the suspect list - assuming she's clearly OU - not from the ladder.
I agree on that. We cannot remove Pokemon that are still not ready to be doomed Uber or OU (as this was in Deoxys-S' case, where it was more obvious).
From what I've seen and heard, is that many would bring Chomp back into OU, whereas the others would stay Uber (and Latias OU).
Anyway, removing Chomp in this early stage wouldn't make much sense, since he is probably the central one to be tested atm.
It would be a bit silly to remove Latias from the ladder at any rate, since either it is a Suspect or it is OU, and either way it would remain on the Suspect ladder. On the other hand, I am definitely in favor of removing it from the list of Suspects; I haven't yet heard anyone argue that it looks even remotely Uber in Stage 3, and it was pretty comfortably OU in Stage 2. In other news, I'm pretty surprised that people think that Garchomp is "OU" in this metagame, I wonder if they're playing the same ladder that I am....
I'm pretty surprised people think Garchomp is "Uber" in this metagame, since it's a borderline case to begin with. (see: Suspect status) With the advent of Scizor, addition of Latias to OU, the continually increasing emphasis on Speed, even the other Suspects if you want to count them, Garchomp is weaker on the Stage 3 Suspect Ladder than it's ever been. Yet, there's all too many people that seem to believe it's actually more uber than EVERY other suspect.
Well, I'm not getting into that argument again. (Shameless sig plugging, see below plox.) I'll tell you now Garchomp isn't half of what Skymin is, though. That thing is Garchomp with 60% Sand Veil that doesn't require Sand Stream to be active.
Well, I'm not getting into that argument again. (Shameless sig plugging, see below plox.) I'll tell you now Garchomp isn't half of what Skymin is, though. That thing is Garchomp with 60% Sand Veil that doesn't require Sand Stream to be active.
I would agree on removing Latias from the Suspect test ultimately - it's just massively outclassed by her brother, and it's barely a threat. Furthermore, I rarely see them to begin with, which is a bit of a problem when we might be forced to use a Pokemon that is largely inferior for the sake of SEXP.
Garchomp I'm not sure about, but I think that it's more OU than Latios (which I think is clearly broken) and Skymin (which I'm starting to lean towards Uber - the massive variation it's capable of and its useful power and ability are part of it, I guess). We definitely should not be removing Garchomp as of this point.
Garchomp I'm not sure about, but I think that it's more OU than Latios (which I think is clearly broken) and Skymin (which I'm starting to lean towards Uber - the massive variation it's capable of and its useful power and ability are part of it, I guess). We definitely should not be removing Garchomp as of this point.
Even offensively, Latias is not "massively outclassed" by Latios and her SpA still matches Salamence. Just because it's a Dragon pokémon doesn't mean you have to throw a Choice item on it and play simple-minded HULK SMASH either, try using Latias in a support role where Latios can't compete.