np: Stage 3 - Family Reunion ("This Is Why I Created" Remix)

[Head Smash]

I'm starting to wonder why Sdef Skarm hasn't been used in OU as he walls pretty much anything, especially combined with Blissey passing status around and a Rotom form to Spin Block. With those 3 as a defensive core, even the suspects have obscene trouble breaking stall, even a Stallbreaker Manaphy can't take Rotom Thunderbolts forever.

I haven't found +Sp. Def. Skarmory impressive at all. It can't wall physical hits as well as its OU counterpart, not by a long shot; I know because I've had plenty of Skarmory switch in to wall my Adamant Kingdra, only to get killed one turn after the switch. Plenty of other things can now take it on easily as well.

In fact, using a Careful nature on a Skarmory actually detracts from the total amount of stat points you get on the Pokemon as a whole; since positive natures boost a particular stat by a percentage rather than a set amount, placing a positive nature on a lower stat always results in lower total stats than placing a positive nature on a higher stat. Even with 252 EVs in Special Defense, Skarmory's S. Def isn't going to get anywhere near its Def value (316 vs. 239; that's a huge difference).

It takes Latias Draco Meteors well enough, but without the suspects I certainly don't see any value in Careful Skarmory.

 

[thechocolatebunny]

Skymin: Skymin is awesome, just awesome. Everytime I seem to be down something like 5-2 skymin always seems to come in and make the score 2-2. The subseed is really good, it forces so many switches and spikes works great with it. I've tried that set LR posted and it is a really good specs user. Havent lost yet with the team that uses specsmin. I've also seen skymin come very close to beating its counters (almost beat my 252 hp/spD skarm because it got 5 flinches but than air slash missed). The hax it gets is ridiculous. Also 100/75/75 defenses is not exactly frail.

Manaphy: Does not get enough love. Manaphy is really, really good in this metagame. CBscizor is everywhere and manaphy is really bulky with those 100/100/100 defenses. It easily brushes off a BP and than tail glows or substitutes. I've been running 252 hp 252 spA 6 spe Modest sub/tailglow/surf/ ice beam @ leftovers. Sub early game and get an incoming skymin to take a surf. Than kill it or the opponent switches to something and you are behind a sub. Once skymin is gone tail glow late game. Most people I have faced have said they are expecting 252 spe timid so they won't send slower things in. Takes like 50% from a garchomp outrage. Works great with skymin. 101 sub allows it to set up on bliss.

Garchomp: Not the same as he was pre-platinum but still a threat nonetheless. Scarf makes a great revenge killer, Band hits like a truck, and can run an SD set. Haban berry seems to be the new yache although a latios specs meteor goes right through it. All other OU dragons are absent from the test because of garchomp and latios.

Latios: Hits insanely hard with specsmeteor. Even bulky steels have a hard time taking repeated hits from it. However after a spA drop it becomes set up fodder. It's great at denting stuff mid-game but it doesn't actually sweep.

 

[Darkerkrai]

Skymin and Garchomp seem to really be the bulk of the Suspect test. Ehhh, Garchomp's OU for the obvious reason that the metagame can handle it now as opposed to the early D/P metagame. Skymin on the other hand is much more difficult to figure out. It doesn't fill the offensive nor defensive characteristics of an Uber and when it comes to supporting another Pokemon, Skymin can't really fill that role well if you let it rip holes in your team.

Mamoswine can "support" other Pokemon by tossing around Earthquakes and Ice Shards everywhere, weakening the opposing team to the point where something can sweep with ease. Moltres can support an array of Pokemon from Altaria to Zapdos by weakening bulkier Pokemon down with Toxic, why don't we just ban it straight from UU to Ubers? The support characteristic that can applied to Skymin can be applied to any Pokemon that rips holes in the opposition.

Skymin is truely a luck based Pokemon when it comes to being Uber or not. If the chances are in your favor, you can win with Skymin which is really why a lot of people consider it Uber. So the question is: Do we want to add more luck to the metagame?

imo, I'd consider Salamence a suspect before any of these.

 

[mtr]

imo, I'd consider Salamence a suspect before any of these.

Well, a few of the reasons that Garchomp is way better than Salamence is Stealth Rock and Sandstorm (and Swords Dance). If you can force out Salamence, you've almost got it dead already, as the 25% from Stealth Rock and the residual damage from the sandstorm seriously limit its staying power. Every turn, Salamence takes 16.25% damage if it chooses to attack. And Stealth Rock takes away 25% of its health on the switch-in.

Garchomp actually takes advantage of the Sandstorm, and resists Stealth Rock, meaning that the pressure is on the other player to kill it, not just remove it, because it can always re-enter the field. Sure, it gets hit by Spikes and Toxic Spikes. But really, how many teams use these things relative to the teams that use Stealth Rock?

And even then, DP-era stall teams (at least Obistall) considered Garchomp too big a threat for phazing to handle, necessitating the use of Ice Fang on Hippowdon.

The 20% miss chance caused by Sand Veil complicates things further. If Ice Shard misses, it might as well be good game (this is assuming the Garchomp is locked into Outrage and can't switch).

It's really a matter of resilence. It's way easier for Garchomp to sweep than Salamence.

But of course, the addition of Scizor and Bullet Punch really makes the uberness debatable.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

But of course, the addition of Scizor and Bullet Punch really makes the uberness debatable.

Rayquaza takes damage of SR and Sandstorm and even more from Bullet Punch, let's unban him.

 

[Khyl]

Rayquaza takes damage of SR and Sandstorm and even more from Bullet Punch, let's unban him.

Actually Rayquaza's Air Lock negates Sand Stream.

 

[WarriorPrince]

Rayquaza takes damage of SR and Sandstorm and even more from Bullet Punch, let's unban him.

lol.

Without Ice Shard. I think Rayquaza would sweep like every team though.

I'm seeing lots of teams with multiple scarf users. 1-2 was okay, but I'm seeing 2-4.

I only see Skymin and Latios as being uber. Manaphy is kind of easy to stop. Garchomp is difficult to stop in sandstorm, but without it he is nothing much to stop.

Latias is definately still OU.

 

[mtr]

Rayquaza takes damage of SR and Sandstorm and even more from Bullet Punch, let's unban him.

Extremespeed is a problem as well (regarding Weavile and Mamoswine). And as others said, there's the matter of Air Lock. This, combined with his higher base defenses (relative to Salamence), let him take a Bullet Punch and return with a SD/DD Earthquake/Overheat, a sure OHKO.

Besides, his base attack power is even higher than either Salamence or Garchomp, as are his formidable mixed capabilities. Really, Salamence can't hold a candle compared to Rayquaza.

 

[Darkerkrai]

@mtr12: I never said that Salamence was better than Garchomp. The problem with it is that it's so versitle; however, even if you know Salamence's moveset, it's going to demolish you. Forcing out Salamence isn't easier than Garchomp. Garchomp can be forced out through means of Phazing or just switching in something that can either take a Swords Dance boosted attack or something that can outspeed and OHKO it. Salamence pretty much needs to be revenge killed by Ice Shard seeing as how it can KO most of the common Phazers after a Dragon Dance. As I've already mentioned with Salamence, knowing its moveset won't do much seeing as how it will have OHKO'd member of your team, or your team itself will have been weakened enough for another Pokemon to sweep. The SR weakness doesn't really hurt Salamence since it's going to stay in for a while.

Screw Sand Veil. If what you say is true (being gg if Ice Shard misses), then why is no one considering Swords Dance Gliscor as a suspect? I'd rather be beaten by Sand Veil hax than just, well, a Pokemon that would more or less require a sacrifice to even figure out its moveset.

Anyway, instead of acting like a 10 year old and state that this thread is for current suspects, I'll just ask you to merely look at the few ways that Salamence can be brought down with. Also seeing as how Salamence commonly runs a good amount of powerful sets that can hit on either side of the attacking spectrum, consider how easily these ways to get rid of Salamence can even switch in easily without discarding their original purpose.

 

[Little Green Yoda]

Screw Sand Veil. If what you say is true (being gg if Ice Shard misses), then why is no one considering Swords Dance Gliscor as a suspect? I'd rather be beaten by Sand Veil hax than just, well, a Pokemon that would more or less require a sacrifice to even figure out its moveset.

Less Speed, less Attack. Lacks arguably the best STAB in the game along with attacks that perfectly complements said STAB. Looking only at Sand Veil as why Garchomp is uber or not got old months ago.

 

[mtr]

Screw Sand Veil. If what you say is true (being gg if Ice Shard misses), then why is no one considering Swords Dance Gliscor as a suspect? I'd rather be beaten by Sand Veil hax than just, well, a Pokemon that would more or less require a sacrifice to even figure out its moveset.

LittleGreenYoda beat me to the Sand Veil part. It's a factor, but Garchomp has way more going for it. Even if it had Tangled Feet, it would still be in ubers contention (though probably not anymore). It's the SS immunity and the SR resist that count way more.

But no arguments on the sacrificing a dude to figure out the moveset. It's a major problem, but death fodder is usually readily available to throw away.

I got into the game at the start of Platinum. Perhaps another user can inform me about the prevalence of Chain Chomp and how useful it was, because it may be relevant in this context.

 

[SoT]

Less Speed, less Attack. Lacks arguably the best STAB in the game along with attacks that perfectly complements said STAB. Looking only at Sand Veil as why Garchomp is uber or not got old months ago.

It did get old, but people still bring it up like that's the only thing that makes it uber. Garchomp is one of the most difficult pokemon to stop in this game lacking no true counter (unless you run Scarf Cresselia/Scarf Suicune but that's silly :P) and having the ability to OHKO/2HKO every pokemon. With that being said, the only way to contain him is through the means of getting at least 2 pokemon to "hopefully" stop him, and then have a back up just in case. Sand Veil is a bonus, but it really doesn't play much in arguing a case for or against.

After laddering a bit more, all of the pokemon seem to be a bit uber. The only one that I don't care either way is Latias, and that's pretty much only because I've been playing with her in OU ever since I came back. Latios seems a bit much, dealing 13% over Latias, which seems like a little on it's own, but allows it to 2HKO things that Latias normally wouldn't be able to. Mamaphy is one I haven't really had trouble dealing with, but apparently many others have been having a rough time with Sub TG set. I will admit that a well played Hydration Manaphy is an annoying Pokemon to play against. Skymin has the whole "high risk, high reward" thing going on for it. I just don't like how that has the abilitiy to potentially break games wide open, solely do to the fact the person got lucky. =/

 

[d2m]

After laddering a bit more, all of the pokemon seem to be a bit uber. The only one that I don't care either way is Latias, and that's pretty much only because I've been playing with her in OU ever since I came back. Latios seems a bit much, dealing 13% over Latias, which seems like a little on it's own, but allows it to 2HKO things that Latias normally wouldn't be able to. Mamaphy is one I haven't really had trouble dealing with, but apparently many others have been having a rough time with Sub TG set. I will admit that a well played Hydration Manaphy is an annoying Pokemon to play against. Skymin has the whole "high risk, high reward" thing going on for it. I just don't like how that has the abilitiy to potentially break games wide open, solely do to the fact the person got lucky. =/

From what I've been seeing, I think Manaphy and Latias are really the only 2 with a shot at OU.

Garchomp is an extremely powerful force and with a bit of luck (in sand), can't be revenge killed, (DM has 70% accuracy and Ice Shard 80% and he outruns pretty much everything else that could kill it without a scarf). He's basically Salamence except not SR weak, immune to T-wave, and with a haxy chance of not being revenge killed, and Salamence has argubly been the best wallbreaker since Garchomp was banned.

Latios is much the same on the Special side. He is weak to pursuit and a -2 DM isn't doing all that much, so he's rather easy to revenge kill, however anything not steel typed is gonna bite the big one to a Specsmeteor. Something with that much power is extremely difficult to counter outside of ubers, it'd pretty much determine 2 slots of every team: Latios and a SpD steel type.

I have 3 saved logs of specsmin sweeping with air slash just flinching over and over, knocking out its counters and everything else. If I played more often (my internet was screwy this weekend) I would have had more. It may not be "professional" to ban something based on "luck" so I'd rather have someone good with math actually prove the ridiculousness of specs Air Slash combined with STAB and Serene Grace.

 

[wildfire393]

From what I've been seeing, I think Manaphy and Latias are really the only 2 with a shot at OU.

Garchomp is an extremely powerful force and with a bit of luck (in sand), can't be revenge killed, (DM has 70% accuracy and Ice Shard 80% and he outruns pretty much everything else that could kill it without a scarf). He's basically Salamence except not SR weak, immune to T-wave, and with a haxy chance of not being revenge killed, and Salamence has argubly been the best wallbreaker since Garchomp was banned.

Latios is much the same on the Special side. He is weak to pursuit and a -2 DM isn't doing all that much, so he's rather easy to revenge kill, however anything not steel typed is gonna bite the big one to a Specsmeteor. Something with that much power is extremely difficult to counter outside of ubers, it'd pretty much determine 2 slots of every team: Latios and a SpD steel type.

I have 3 saved logs of specsmin sweeping with air slash just flinching over and over, knocking out its counters and everything else. If I played more often (my internet was screwy this weekend) I would have had more. It may not be "professional" to ban something based on "luck" so I'd rather have someone good with math actually prove the ridiculousness of specs Air Slash combined with STAB and Serene Grace.

I'm currently torn on Garchomp. If he uses Outrage, then he basically dies, as one of a dozen steels switches in and takes advantage of the free turns to KO him. If he sticks to Dragon Claw as his STAB, he lacks the power to get some key OHKO/2HKOs. However, Salamence had this exact problem and that didn't stop him from being top-tier OU. The thing is, Salamence requires an even more specific Pokemon to revenge it. With Garchomp, the revenging Pokemon only has to have Speed greater than 102, which leaves a lot of options: Infernape, Lati@s, Gengar, Starmie, Azelf, etc etc as well as any Ice Sharder and any Scarfer. For Salamence, this list is reduced to just Ice Sharders and Scarfers with Base Speed >= 100, which is a lot smaller of a list.
However, Garchomp also has several advantages that make up for this. Swords Dance is huge, allowing Garchomp to forgo Life Orb and retain the same level of sweeping potential. Combine this with resistance to Stealth Rock and immunity to Sandstorm, and Garchomp is a lot deadlier. If Salamence switches in with SR up and Sandstorm active (common battle conditions), he loses 25% + 6.25%, then another 6.25% as he Dragon Dances, then another 10% + 6.25% as he attacks once. Going into his second attack, Salamence has already taken over half of his HP, making him very easy to take out by anything that can live a single hit. Garchomp, on the other hand, switching in, Swords Dancing once, and attacking once, takes only a resisted hit from SR, dealing only 6.25%. STAB Earthquake means he can get a lot of his OHKOs and 2HKOs without resorting to Outrage, making him harder to finish off. And the 20% accuracy chance just compounds this.

 

[Mr.E]

^^ SoT, everybody can break a game open with luck. It's important to specify how Skymin does so with alarming regularily compared to normal.

Now then...

I don't care for the "who's better" argument at hand but Salamence does have the advantage of versatility over Garchomp. (And, of course, Intimidate plus alternate resists.) Where Garchomp is virtually guaranteed to be walled by Bronzong and Skarmory, there's no one magic pokémon able to handle all the Salamence variants out there. Bronzong does an okay job here too (when doesn't it?), I suppose, but Salamence will do more damage to it.

Future reply to: "But Chain Chomp can surprise and kill its normal counters!" Salamence is equally proficient at attacking from either spectrum, making it more unpredictable in that it is equally likely to be carrying any of its viable movesets. Garchomp is far more proficient at dealing raw physical damage, its special side is useful solely for surprise factor. It is rarely used and, even when it is, far more easily neutralized once the surprise is gone.

Related to the Salamence thing, one thing I personally would love to address: Garchomp's Speed.

Garchomp really isn't all that quick. The only thing its 102 Base Speed gives it a leg up on is avoiding Speed ties from the Base 100 crowd... most of which are regularly defensive (Celebi, Jirachi, Tentacruel, Zapdos) and rarely use all that Speed. Excluding Salamence and Garchomp themselves, that extra Speed helps Garchomp do what... avoid the 50/50 with Flygon? Big deal. Salamence even gets Dragon Dance to deter non-priority revenge killers. (i.e. Infernape and faster.)

In shorter words, Garchomp's unique Speed hardly breaks the metagame. :/ The most dangerous thing about Garchomp is the power behind its "uber" dual-type, which itself is rather overrated. Due to the constant fear of giving up a free switch to a Flyer / Levitator and losing its advantage, it can rarely afford to even risk using EQ before "clean-up time." Its mostly carried by its Dragon typing... but so is every other Dragon. Even where Ground STAB does come in handy, such as against Metagross, Swords Dance is more of a factor in that OHKO than having the STAB on EQ. (Then I'd claim that DD's Speed buff is equally powerful, such as preventing Starmie from threatening a faster OHKO, as proof that SD is also not what Garchomp banworthy...)

Oh, I forgot the one other defining factor for Garchomp: Sand Veil. Honestly, you won't hear much argument here from me, it's the only thing I've ever admitted could even put Garchomp into the "questionable" (i.e. Suspect) category. But I still maintain that the pre-requisite of having Sand Stream on your team to make it work at all is a big enough handicap to balance it out.

So... Garchomp is uber because it resists Stealth Rock or something? *shrug* Shit, so does Lucario (4x!), who also isn't hard countered by Toxic Spikes and has an easier "guaranteed" set-up in the rather common CB Pursuit users! You guys realize Garchomp's most common way of setting up pre-Plat was to do the exact same thing as Salamence, right? Just substitute all the residual damage for a Yache-reduced Ice Beam which still did 70% to it. :/ The only outlier is, of course, Sand Veil. You can put T-Tar or Hippowdon in a second slot on your team to give Garchomp a 20% chance to do more than other sweepers!

 

[jrrrrrrr]

I don't care for the "who's better" argument at hand but Salamence does have the advantage of versatility over Garchomp. (And, of course, Intimidate plus alternate resists.) Where Garchomp is virtually guaranteed to be walled by Bronzong and Skarmory, there's no one magic pokémon able to handle all the Salamence variants out there. Bronzong does an okay job here too (when doesn't it?), I suppose, but Salamence will do more damage to it.

Garchomp isn't walled by Bronzong or Skarmory unless its locked into Outrage...and if that's your argument then Rayquaza shouldn't be uber either. You don't wall Swords Dance Garchomp, you pray that you have enough firepower to revenge kill it before you lose.

Future reply to: "But Chain Chomp can surprise and kill its normal counters!" Salamence is equally proficient at attacking from either spectrum, making it more unpredictable in that it is equally likely to be carrying any of its viable movesets. Garchomp is far more proficient at dealing raw physical damage, its special side is useful solely for surprise factor. It is rarely used and, even when it is, far more easily neutralized once the surprise is gone.

Groudon is far more proficient at dealing raw physical damage, its special side is useful solely for surprise factor. It is rarely used and, even when it is, far more easily neutralized once the surprise is gone.

Garchomp really isn't all that quick. The only thing its 102 Base Speed gives it a leg up on is avoiding Speed ties from the Base 100 crowd... most of which are regularly defensive (Celebi, Jirachi, Tentacruel, Zapdos) and rarely use all that Speed. Excluding Salamence and Garchomp themselves, that extra Speed helps Garchomp do what... avoid the 50/50 with Flygon? Big deal. Salamence even gets Dragon Dance to deter non-priority revenge killers. (i.e. Infernape and faster.)

Considering that Garchomp's extra speed eliminates another 6 OU pokemon from attempting to revenge kill it, yeah I'd say thats pretty significant.

In shorter words, Garchomp's unique Speed hardly breaks the metagame. :/ The most dangerous thing about Garchomp is the power behind its "uber" dual-type, which itself is rather overrated. Due to the constant fear of giving up a free switch to a Flyer / Levitator and losing its advantage, it can rarely afford to even risk using EQ before "clean-up time." Its mostly carried by its Dragon typing... but so is every other Dragon. Even where Ground STAB does come in handy, such as against Metagross, its Swords Dance more so than the STAB on EQ that draws the OHKO. (Then I'd claim that DD's Speed buff is equally powerful, such as preventing Starmie from threatening OHKO, as proof that SD is also not what Garchomp banworthy...)

It's not just the Speed...its the speed+the stabs+the trait+the atk stat+the fact that one set is capable of guaranteeing KOs and doing >100% to a team+its one of the best revenge killers+it makes a bunch of other pokemon obsolete+its not on a timer like Salamence etc etc

So... Garchomp is uber because it resists Stealth Rock or something? *shrug*

What? Youre completely missing the point...Salamence's SR weakness, and the fact that it has to use the inferior Life Orb+Dragon Dance combo instead of Swords Dance+thing to increase its already impressive defenses differentiates it from Garchomp. Nobody is saying "sr resist = uber", people are saying that "sr weakness = limits the amount of damage you can do". That's quite a big difference.

Oh, I forgot the one other defining factor for Garchomp: Sand Veil. Honestly, you won't hear much argument here from me, it's the only thing I've ever admitted could even put Garchomp into the "questionable" (i.e. Suspect) category. But I still maintain that the pre-requisite of having Sand Stream on your team to make it work at all is a big enough handicap to balance it out.

Sand is in 20% of battles...and I don't think using a sand stream pokemon on your team is a handicap. Tyranitar and Hippowdon are two of the most solid pokemon in the tier. Tyranitar is a powerhouse in itself, destroys most of Garchomp's checks with STAB Pursuit, can lure out Skarm and Bronzong to support chomp even more...Hippo can lay Stealth Rock down and phaze until your opponent is in KO range for Garchomp...etc etc

Oh, you want to revenge Garchomp with Latios, Latias, Starmie, Azelf, etc?? Say hello to Pursuit Tyranitar. Now, your Garchomp check is dead AND I just set up sand to support Garchomp even more. You can't just keep assuming that every team is loaded with Garchomp checks but not assume that the Garchomp team can't account for them.

 

[wildfire393]

]
Sand is in 20% of battles...and I don't think using a sand stream pokemon on your team is a handicap. Tyranitar and Hippowdon are two of the most solid pokemon in the tier. Tyranitar is a powerhouse in itself, destroys most of Garchomp's checks with STAB Pursuit, can lure out Skarm and Bronzong to support chomp even more...Hippo can lay Stealth Rock down and phaze until your opponent is in KO range for Garchomp...etc etc

Point of contention: Sand Pokemon are used on 20% of all teams, which makes the percentage of battles they are used in significantly higher. Like 36% (20%+20%-(20%*20%)).

 

[Mr.E]

As much as I enjoy nitpicking and biting sarcasm, particularly the implying that Garchomp is so physically broken (via the Groudon comparison) that it doesn't need any power on the special side, Salamence has more base Attack than Garchomp too.

Groudon is also far more bulky than either and, clearly, more people should use CB Salamence.

The entire point of defining most of the Base 100 pokémon as defensive was that Garchomp's Speed doesn't eliminate an additional six OU pokémon from revenge-killing. For example, it doesn't really "eliminate" Jirachi from the list. Jirachi rarely runs max Speed, so Salamence is hardly more at risk of a revenge kill from it than Garchomp ever was. (The actual risk is that Jirachi can take a hit from Salamence but Garchomp OHKOs. :P Perhaps Calm Zapdos is a better example here.)

Regarding the last two paragraphs, Tyranitar is excellent set-up bait itself (CB Pursuit) and killing most fast revenge killers would also benefit other set-up pokémon in this speed range, like SD Lucario or SD/NP Infernape. (Hell, some people use those "Pursuit bait" pokémon specifically to give SD Lucario opportunities to set up.) Magnezone also removes basically every check (read: Steel), sans Heatran who only checks Choice sets, for every Dragon. Building part of your team around a particularly strong pokémon is very common and Garchomp certainly isn't the only sweeper used in that vein. (On the mention of Hippowdon, it's a pretty good Garchomp check itself.)

Now, to be serious, it is certainly a handicap in having to use Tyranitar or Hippowdon along with Garchomp. The fact they're good pokémon in their own right minimizes the disadvantage you receive from being pigeonholed into using one of them but it doesn't change the fact you do. (Well, you don't have to use them, but then Garchomp's one decided advantage over other sweepers goes unrealized.) Beyond the actual pokémon one is forced into using, the mere presence of Sand Stream forces one to build the other four pokémon around it. Life Orb usage becomes a little dubious, more EVs will go to defenses over HP as SS nullifies Leftovers recovery, and so on. Building around Garchomp is a lot more restrictive than building around any other sweeper, is that worth the extra "oomph" every fifth game?

EDIT: In attempt to stay on-topic, i.e. help decide whether the named Suspects belong in the Uber or OU tier based on evidence over theorymon, I should probably answer my own rhetorical question. No, I have not been particularly overwhelmed by Garchomp any more than various other sweepers. The way my primary Suspect team is built, I actually have more trouble with Heatran than anything. (Gyarados too, which I half-assed remedied by sticking Tbolt on half my team. :P) Obviously, defending against all threats is impossible these days, but I didn't have to dedicate half my team specifically to countering Garchomp in order to handle it. I do quite well against it, or at least as well as I can alongside the Latis too. (Dragon overload -_--------) Every team has their trouble opponents and I'm sure Garchomp is on many of those lists but I haven't seen evidence that's it's remarkably stronger than many other potential candidates.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

As much as I enjoy nitpicking and biting sarcasm, particularly the implying that Garchomp is so physically broken (via the Groudon comparison) that it doesn't need any power on the special side, Salamence has more base Attack than Garchomp too.

Groudon is also far more bulky than either and, clearly, more people should use CB Salamence.

I was saying that you should really stop using arguments for Garchomp being OU that also apply to pokemon that are obviously uber, not that Garchomp is as broken as Groudon would be in OU.

Who cares if Garchomp doesn't use its SpAtk stat? Groudon doesn't either. That was the point. Who cares if Garchomp can be locked into Outrage? Rayquaza can be too. Who cares if Garchomp is barely 2hkod with Stealth Rock down by Scizor (assuming 2 consecutive hits)? Rayquaza can be too. etc etc

The entire point of defining most of the Base 100 pokémon as defensive was that Garchomp's Speed doesn't eliminate an additional six OU pokémon from revenge-killing. For example, it doesn't really "eliminate" Jirachi from the list. Jirachi rarely runs max Speed, so Salamence is hardly more at risk of a revenge kill from it than Garchomp ever was. (The actual risk is that Jirachi can take a hit from Salamence but Garchomp OHKOs. :P Perhaps Calm Zapdos is a better example here.)

It eliminates any chance they had of revenging them. While Jirachi (or even Tentacruel) has the *option* of running near-max Speed and <ice move> to serve as a decent mixmence/specsmence counter, that option is not even present for anything with Garchomp.

Regarding the last two paragraphs, Tyranitar is excellent set-up bait itself (CB Pursuit) and killing most fast revenge killers would also benefit other set-up pokémon in this speed range, like SD Lucario or SD/NP Infernape. (Hell, some people use those "Pursuit bait" pokémon specifically to give SD Lucario opportunities to set up.) Magnezone also removes basically every check (read: Steel), sans Heatran who only checks Choice sets, for every Dragon. Building part of your team around a particularly strong pokémon is very common and Garchomp certainly isn't the only sweeper used in that vein. (On the mention of Hippowdon, it's a pretty good Garchomp check itself.)

Oh you have a garchomp counter? I have a counter for that! I have a counter for YOUR counter!! Theorymon isnt getting this anywhere. The argument wasn't about Tyranitar being set up on...you said that you were going to use Starmie (and presumably, Latios and Latias) as a Garchomp check...without realizing that they are all destroyed by one of the most common pokemon in the game, and that pokemon also happens to be Garchomp's bffl in terms of support right after you said that using Tyranitar is a handicap for a Garchomp team.

Now, to be serious, it is certainly a handicap in having to use Tyranitar or Hippowdon along with Garchomp. The fact they're good pokémon in their own right minimizes the disadvantage you receive from being pigeonholed into using one of them but it doesn't change the fact you do. (Well, you don't have to use them, but then Garchomp's one decided advantage over other sweepers goes unrealized.) Beyond the actual pokémon one is forced into using, the mere presence of Sand Stream forces one to build the other four pokémon around it. Life Orb usage becomes a little dubious, more EVs will go to defenses over HP as SS nullifies Leftovers recovery, and so on. Building around Garchomp is a lot more restrictive than building around any other sweeper, is that worth the extra "oomph" every fifth game?

Well, first of all, you dont have to use Sand Stream to make Garchomp the best physical sweeper in the game. Just wanted to clear that up, since you are apparently trying to make Garchomp look like it has disadvantages that it actually doesn't have. The fact that Tyranitar is a 100% counter to most of Garchomp's checks is just an added bonus to the fact that it sets up sandstorm.

Also, Calling Sand Veil the only thing that Garchomp has over other sweepers is completely false.

How is building around Garchomp restrictive, at all? The fact that Garchomp has so few reliable ways of taking it down makes it less restrictive to build around.....

EDIT: In attempt to stay on-topic, i.e. help decide whether the named Suspects belong in the Uber or OU tier based on evidence over theorymon, I should probably answer my own rhetorical question. No, I have not been particularly overwhelmed by Garchomp any more than various other sweepers. The way my primary Suspect team is built, I actually have more trouble with Heatran than anything. (Gyarados too, which I half-assed remedied by sticking Tbolt on half my team. :P) Obviously, defending against all threats is impossible these days, but I didn't have to dedicate half my team specifically to countering Garchomp in order to handle it. I do quite well against it, or at least as well as I can alongside the Latis too. (Dragon overload -_--------) Every team has their trouble opponents and I'm sure Garchomp is on many of those lists but I haven't seen evidence that's it's remarkably stronger than many other potential candidates.

Ok, that is what you should be saying...not making things up like "garchomps only advantage over other sweepers is sand veil". Not thinking something is broken because you havent seen evidence is much different than not thinking its broken because of completely false reasons.

I'd also like to point out that we aren't using this test to see if we "think its broken". We have three characteristics of Uber. Garchomp/Manaphy etc shouldnt be judged on "can your team beat them", they are supposed to be judged on "are they capable of sweeping" (or walling or supporting)? I'm not claiming to have all the answers, but that's why I'm testing them!

 

[d2m]

EDIT: In attempt to stay on-topic, i.e. help decide whether the named Suspects belong in the Uber or OU tier based on evidence over theorymon, I should probably answer my own rhetorical question. No, I have not been particularly overwhelmed by Garchomp any more than various other sweepers. The way my primary Suspect team is built, I actually have more trouble with Heatran than anything. (Gyarados too, which I half-assed remedied by sticking Tbolt on half my team. :P) Obviously, defending against all threats is impossible these days, but I didn't have to dedicate half my team specifically to countering Garchomp in order to handle it. I do quite well against it, or at least as well as I can alongside the Latis too. (Dragon overload -_--------) Every team has their trouble opponents and I'm sure Garchomp is on many of those lists but I haven't seen evidence that's it's remarkably stronger than many other potential candidates.

Garchomp takes out Heatran ;)

Also, the suspect ladder is overcentralized on Dragon and Steel and near nothing else, so most teams are built to counter Garchomp/Latios, but that's the nature of a suspect test. Build a team to counter OU threats right now and Garchomp will likely rip it to shreds. Garchomp's speed isn't magic, but it would make it the fastest OU Dragon, which is why it's so powerful. Aren't we supposed to be evaluating them not only in relation to the suspect ladder, but to the OU ladder as well?

 

[MetaNite]

Latias is and always will be the fastest Dragon in OU. If you know whether or not Garchomp has a Choice Scarf or not, you can easily find a counter to it. Latios itself can switch into any of Garchomp's attacks bar a Dragon one, and most of the time Garchomp isn't spamming Outrage due to its negative side-effect which will usually get it killed.

 

[Qzahk]

On the topic of Yache/Haban SD Garchomp, I find that Yache berry is still better. Yache berry means Garchomp can survive from the various bulky waters (including Manaphy), Mamoswine, and the many Scarf users that carry HP Ice. That's a pretty good chunk of the metagame that can't ohko you.

On the other hand, Haban berry seems to only be useful for non-specs Latios/Latias and Scarfchomp (and the kinda uncommon dragon pulse scarftran). So, I'm still not convinced of Habanchomp being the new Yachechomp.


Specs/ScarfLatios seems to be just a stronger Specs/Scarfmence right now. However, Stealth Rock seriously limited Salamence, whereas only somewhat limits Latios. Then again, Latios is limited by pursuit.

 

[Mr.E]

Poor Salamence has gone almost entirely unused in Stage 3 thus far. :( Stupid Latios...

I'd also like to point out that we aren't using this test to see if we "think its broken". We have three characteristics of Uber. Garchomp/Manaphy etc shouldnt be judged on "can your team beat them", they are supposed to be judged on "are they capable of sweeping" (or walling or supporting)? I'm not claiming to have all the answers, but that's why I'm testing them!

The "characteristics" are guidelines, perhaps explanatory after the fact. But why does Suspect X sweep so easily, or wall everything, or has nigh-inexhaustible support options which are virtually unstoppable? There's still a mix of anecdotal evidence, theorymon, and raw math needed to explain why a particular characteristic fits.

The point of the test is to gather usage-based evidence. Do an abnormally high amount of people use Suspect X? If so, the possibility of Suspect X being Uber is higher. People use what works and if Suspect X is what every team needs to win, then people will use it. It doesn't tell us how easy it is to account for said pokémon, though, and that's where personal experience enters the picture. I mean, Scizor is the #1 OU pokémon, yet is certainly easier to counter than most sweepers with their speed and versatility. "Experience" is biased and opinionated, yes, but that's why we have a forum to argue on and a vote taking place. How can Garchomp be "capable of sweeping" me if my team thoroughly beats it? :/

On paper, Garchomp is hardly the only pokémon that can claim to almost always manage to trade kills at worst. In practice, I find that holds true. Usually, it'll switch into my Jirachi. Afraid to EQ and give up a free switch, I can usually wear it down more than it "should." Or I'll switch Swampert into it, eat a boosted DClaw for most of my health and cripple/kill it with Ice Beam. (Or maybe it kills me with Outrage and is now locked in for an easy revenge kill.) Maybe it switches into my Rotom, expecting a Choice set it can easily set up on, and I put up a Reflect. Rarely do I find myself losing half a team to the thing. No, I have more trouble with Gyarados... but you don't see me claiming it's broken because a Waterfall flinch (another 20% haxer!) killed my best Gyarados check and Scizor can't revenge it.

If I can put together a solid team which handles Garchomp easily without specifically overaccounting for it, why should I believe it's remarkably more broken than any other sweeper? Other people will have a different experience but who is to say that their Garchomp "problem" isn't the same simple one my team has with Gyarados or that another team might have with Infernape, Lucario, Starmie? Perhaps my stance will also change as I explore other options during Stage 3, beyond that horribly failed Rain team I made, but I doubt it. That's why we all get a vote, though.

I'd just like to sway more people to my side of the argument. :P

Build a team to counter OU threats right now and Garchomp will likely rip it to shreds. Garchomp's speed isn't magic, but it would make it the fastest OU Dragon...

Though true, that's an unfair assessment of Garchomp. Of course it would destroy current OU teams, Garchomp has been "Uber" for a while now and it is no longer accounted for in the OU metagame. (The 4x Ice weakness that Garchomp shares with most every other Dragon automatically gives it many "checks" anyway.) And Latias is the fastest OU Dragon since it dropped down, as already corrected.

 

[wildfire393]

I have to say I actually kind of like Garchomp over Salamence as the premier OU Physical Dragon threat. When Salamence was the top threat, everything was so based on beating a +1 base 100. Things like Scarf Flygon or Jirachi were forced to run Jolly and Max Speed, and this meant that Salamence was as well. It also meant that any scarfed under base 100 speed was not nearly as useful, and that it was not uncommon to see a scarf on a base 110-115 Pokemon like Gengar, Starmie, etc. It also had repercussions in the speed chain down for quite a ways. Things like Lucario were stuck with only Adamant as their option, because Jolly ones would never outspeed +nature Salamence anyways. This also meant that Mamoswines were almost exclusively Jolly as well, since it would mean beating Adamant Lucario.

With Garchomp as the champ, we see things like Scarfed Heatran and Rotom-A being much wiser choices, as they can check things like Gyarados, Scizor, and Lucario as well as Garchomp, rather than forcing the player to also include a specific Salamence check in addition to the Scarfer. There's also much less pressure to max out speed on Base 100's. Flygon is free to run Adamant and Salamence has more freedom to run MixMence sets or even just a slower Dragon Dancer, boosting Special Attack (or HP) while still having max+ Attack. Lucario can now pick between Adamant for power and Jolly for the ability to outrun MixMence and other common base 100s, and thus Mamo is more likely to run Adamant because there's a good chance it can't be Lucario anyways.

 

[Qzahk]

Wow. Garchomp is still the king. Mine always gets a kill, but so far has been getting several and the opponent's always gets a kill too. Every team has a Garchomp, first of all, which obviously says something. It's a bit easier to handle than the pre-suspect era with the additions of potential revengekillers Latios, Latias, Scizor, Skymin. But I don't know if the additions are enough to overturn Garchomp's pre-suspect verdict.