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np: Stage 3 - Family Reunion ("This Is Why I Created" Remix)
- Thread starter Jumpman16
- Start date
Bronzong is on every other team because of its ability to switch into Latias, Latios, Shaymin-S, and Garchomp. It generally sets up Rocks, hits quite hard with Gyro Ball, then tries its luck with Hypnosis before Exploding. Lucario is quite common as well, since after Garchomp is taken down it has quite an easy time sweeping in this special defense and speed oriented metagame. I've seen a couple of Heatran (as well as running my own), and they are generally scarfed to keep Shaymin-S, non-scarf Garchomp, and said Lucario in check, as well as getting good switchins to Skarmory and Bronzong.
Skarmory and Blissey are quite common as well, with most Skarmory opting for special defense over physical defense to better take on Latios and Shaymin-S. This does leave the combo quite open to powerful physical attackers, such as CB Garchomp with Fire Fang, which can 2HKO Skarmory and easily OHKO Blissey with any other move. Gyarados is quite common too, and it is usually people's only real answer to Manaphy apart from revenge killing. Rest Talk Roar Gyarados is pretty common on more defensive teams, just like standard OU. Scizor is in every other battle as well, I'm guessing because of its ability to revenge kill 4 out of 5 of the suspects with ease.
That's about all I can think of off the top of my head. I plan on doing a more formal and detailed suspect metagame analysis later on in the month, so I want to get some initial thoughts down :).
Skarmory and Blissey are quite common as well, with most Skarmory opting for special defense over physical defense to better take on Latios and Shaymin-S. This does leave the combo quite open to powerful physical attackers, such as CB Garchomp with Fire Fang, which can 2HKO Skarmory and easily OHKO Blissey with any other move. Gyarados is quite common too, and it is usually people's only real answer to Manaphy apart from revenge killing. Rest Talk Roar Gyarados is pretty common on more defensive teams, just like standard OU. Scizor is in every other battle as well, I'm guessing because of its ability to revenge kill 4 out of 5 of the suspects with ease.
That's about all I can think of off the top of my head. I plan on doing a more formal and detailed suspect metagame analysis later on in the month, so I want to get some initial thoughts down :).
Scizor, Skarmory, Bronzong, Tyranitar, Blissey, Forretress, Heatran.
Those are the ones i see the most =/
Those are the ones i see the most =/
Metagross is used often as well. I have seen Lucarios out and about, you'll see Machamp every now and again as well. A lot of the same pokemon are seeing the use right now.
I have yet to play a Mixed Latios up to this point in my laddering, but I think with everyone being so focused on -trying- to stop LO and Specs sweepers from wrecking them, a Mixed Latios will come as a surprise and deal some massive damage. If paired up with Spikes and SR, Latios is one of the hardest pokemon to stop from my experience playing against it, and using it.
I have yet to play a Mixed Latios up to this point in my laddering, but I think with everyone being so focused on -trying- to stop LO and Specs sweepers from wrecking them, a Mixed Latios will come as a surprise and deal some massive damage. If paired up with Spikes and SR, Latios is one of the hardest pokemon to stop from my experience playing against it, and using it.
There's lots of steels. Magnezones does a great job in supporting the suspects.
Sadly though, I've only seen a few Manaphy, none of which were on a Rain team. It's sort of understable; they don't seem to fare well against Latias, Latios and Skymin.
Sadly though, I've only seen a few Manaphy, none of which were on a Rain team. It's sort of understable; they don't seem to fare well against Latias, Latios and Skymin.
The problem is, Latios lacks a Fire-type Physical attack. It's Physical attack choices pretty much consist of Dragon Claw, Outrage, Earthquake, and Waterfall. This means it still gets stymied by Skamory and Bronzong (who take little from Outrage and less from Waterfall). Additionally, it suffers the problem of every other Dragon Type that once it starts to Outrage, any Steel Type can just walk all over it while it is forced to uselessly ram itself against them. Not to mention that after a Dragon Dance, it is still outsped by Scarfed Skymin.
What can Scarf Skymin do against Latios? HP Ice won't do enough. And trying to abuse Air Slash on a 110 base stat is pretty difficult. In the meantime, Latios' Outrage will easily deal with the green pikie.
However, the lack of a Fire move is problematic (HP Fire on a DD set is just plain fail). If Latios had Flamethrower or something, I would immediately scream out Uber. But without it... it's hard to tell. DD set definitely isn't Uber. Currently, Specs is the only reason that might give Latios the permanent Uber status. And Latias seems to have no hope.
Skymin can still shave off ~40-50% with an HP Ice and ~33-43% with an Air Slash (with better than a coinflip's odds that he can do that again, which easily spells death with SR, potential sandstorm, and LO damage), and he necessitates that Latios uses Outrage, which locks him in for any steel to finish off easily.
I don't think a pure physical DD Latios would be effective. If DDLatios has 1 special move to beat physical walls, then what defense would most likely be sacrificed? Defense means priority users with Bullet Punch or Ice Shard would do massive damage. Sacrificing Sp.Def means Latios has less things to set up on and the Scarf-Skymin mentioned above do even more damage.
I would guess Sp Def, mainly because even with a drop, is still very high, which means the set-upping wont be as good, but still productable.
Defense will make you more prone to the common priorities you mentioned, so i would go with -sp Def
Defense will make you more prone to the common priorities you mentioned, so i would go with -sp Def
The problem is not which defense to lower, but rather, what Special Move do you pick?
Assume a spread of 252 Attack / 192 Speed / 68 Special Attack Naive (enough Speed to outrun Garchomp before a DD and Scarfed Garchomp after a DD, maxed attack because he really doesn't have attack to spare with only 90 base, and the rest in Special attack, -SpD nature because there's a lot more physical priority). Moveset is Dragon Dance, Outrage, Earthquake, <Special Attack>. Common Pokemon that this will have to contend with include Hippowdon, Skarmory, and Bronzong.
Thunderbolt versus 252/252+ Skarmory: 64-76%
Thunderbolt versus 252/252+ Bronzong: 23-27%
HP Fire Versus 252/252+ Skarmory: 47-56%
HP Fire Versus 252/252+ Bronzong: 34-40%
HP Fire Versus 252/88 Hippowdon: 22-26%
Surf Versus 252/252+ Skarmory: 32-38%
Surf Versus 252/252+ Bronzong: 23-27%
Surf Versus 252/88 Hippowdon: 60-71%
Draco Meteor versus 252/252+ Skarmory: 35-41%
Draco Meteor versus 252/252+ Bronzong: 25-30%
Draco Meteor versus 252/88 Hippowdon: 72-85%
As you can see, Bronzong is strong enough to weather at least two hits of anything Latios can throw at him, and at least three hits of anything besides HP Fire. Hippowdon requires either Draco Meteor or Surf, either of which do laughable damage to Skarmory, who requires Thunderbolt or HP Fire to 2HKO (and HP Fire can miss the 2HKO even with SR up, assuming Skarmory is carrying leftovers and not Shed Shell). Specially defensive Forretress takes these hits about as well as Skamory does, only takes half as much from Tbolt and twice as much from HP Fire. Scizor actually has better HP and Special Defense than Skarmory does, though will likely run less of an investment in Special Defense so it can still pack a punch, but again takes neutral from Tbolt and necessitates HP Fire to be even 2HKO'd, while he can launch back devastating Bullet Punches in return and has the possibility of Pursuit up his sleeve. Specially defensive Metagross paints about the same picture, only with even more natural bulk. Things like Gliscor, Cresselia, Donphan, and Suicune all have the physical bulk to easily take a +1 LO Outrage, and require either Draco Meteor or a custom-tailored special move to be able to even 2HKO them (and forget about it on Cress, even a 252/0 Cress takes a max of 55% from Draco Meteor and 42% from Shadow Ball).
Really all you need for Latios to be effective is, Spikes and SR. You really don't -need- Toxic Spikes, but it's one hell of a bonus. You could even run a Life Orb set, if you want to have the ability to switch moves. With a few layers of Spikes and SR, it turns a ton of 3hko's into 2hko's (yes that matters), and it turns some 2hko's into 1hko's. I guess that sort of is a lot easier to say than to do, but it really isn't all to difficult to accomplish. I think Latios/Skymin are probably the top 2 candidates as of now. Manaphy really hasn't proven to me that it works well in OU to be honest. I think Garchomp/Latias/Manaphy are pretty safe bets for OU, and Skymin/Latios are gonna be up to further discussion.
I am on the fence about Garchomp, but for the most part I could actually see this happening.
Skymin in OU is broken as fuck. I have seen more Latios and Skymin than any other suspects. Skymin runs so many damn sets, its versatility kills you on its own.
And personally I find Skymin to be one of the most annoying pokemon ever, its up there with Breloom and Jirachi, which makes me hate it more.
I realize that my personal vendetta against Skymin won'y largely affect the vote, but I had to get that out there.
Actually the suspect I hate or dislike the most right now is Garchomp. That ducking brightpowder+sand veil combination. Just when you think you've won, your move has to miss, not once, not twice but even 3 times. This is seriously pushing me towards voting it über. If I achieve the requirements.
Yeah, that was my main problem with Garchomp before, and it's still my main problem with it now. It's not even like Skymin that needs massive amounts of luck to bring down certain counters, with Swords Dance and flawless coverage, one miss is all it takes to end up in a bad spot.
Sand Veil + Brightpowder is just as much of a bitch in suspect/ubers as it was in OU.
Sand Veil + Brightpowder is just as much of a bitch in suspect/ubers as it was in OU.
Yeah I wouldn't call anything a "safe bet for OU" at this point. There are certainly things that look less uber than others (Latias compared to Latios, for example) but I'd give it a bit more time to settle down...once the things that are "obviously uber" (Latios, Skymin so far) are taken out they may still prove to be just as broken as everyone thought they were. So many people are coming into this with preconceived notions and they arent even focusing on how the pokemon actually performs.
Syberia, to say Garchomp doesn't need "massive amounts of luck" compared to Skymin is a mistake. Skymin is nearly three times as likely to flinch as Garchomp is to evade an attack. Skymin flinching three straight is nearly as likely (~18.5%) as Garchomp evading once (20%). Skymin has more than a 2/3 chance with every Seed Flare to SpD drop any of the few things that could even hope to wall it.
The numbers speak for themselves. :/ In most circumstances, where both brands of "hax" are relevant, Skymin is significantly more likely to succeed. A good example is Skarmory switching into either pokémon already set up. (i.e. Skymin is rotating SubSeed, Garchomp is boosted.) Skymin is about twice as likely as Garchomp to avoid Whirlwind and kill it. Skymin beats a supposed "counter" in Zapdos more often than not where Garchomp gets blown up by its "counter" Bronzong 80% of the time and so on.
Also very much worth mentioning, Skymin isn't dependent on weather for its hax to work. -_- It's vulnerable to Rain/Sun teams removing the supporting Sand Stream but, more importantly, having to choose between a whole two pokémon to support Sand Veil in the first place is restrictive in itself. (Alternatively, hope your opponent carries Hippo/T-Tar.) Honestly, I don't think many people consider Garchomp uber without its infamous "Sand Veil hax," yet they forget that Sand Veil doesn't magically work by itself.
I'm just rambling on by now but it's kinda cool how similar Skymin and Garchomp are. Both have one "best" set, SubSeed and SD respectively, but are also good LO/Choice users depending on team need. Both have a usable gimmick on their weaker attack stat but are so strong that "surprise factor" is hardly needed. And both are well-known for their "hax." Neat, huh? Skymin has a tougher standard set to counter and better hax, though. :P
The numbers speak for themselves. :/ In most circumstances, where both brands of "hax" are relevant, Skymin is significantly more likely to succeed. A good example is Skarmory switching into either pokémon already set up. (i.e. Skymin is rotating SubSeed, Garchomp is boosted.) Skymin is about twice as likely as Garchomp to avoid Whirlwind and kill it. Skymin beats a supposed "counter" in Zapdos more often than not where Garchomp gets blown up by its "counter" Bronzong 80% of the time and so on.
Also very much worth mentioning, Skymin isn't dependent on weather for its hax to work. -_- It's vulnerable to Rain/Sun teams removing the supporting Sand Stream but, more importantly, having to choose between a whole two pokémon to support Sand Veil in the first place is restrictive in itself. (Alternatively, hope your opponent carries Hippo/T-Tar.) Honestly, I don't think many people consider Garchomp uber without its infamous "Sand Veil hax," yet they forget that Sand Veil doesn't magically work by itself.
I'm just rambling on by now but it's kinda cool how similar Skymin and Garchomp are. Both have one "best" set, SubSeed and SD respectively, but are also good LO/Choice users depending on team need. Both have a usable gimmick on their weaker attack stat but are so strong that "surprise factor" is hardly needed. And both are well-known for their "hax." Neat, huh? Skymin has a tougher standard set to counter and better hax, though. :P
Surely you aren't suggesting that Skymin can run a Swords Dance set with only Seed Bomb, Return, Zen Headbutt, and Quick Attack as usable physical options, particularly in a Metagame so rife with Steel types.
It can run a set like that, that could be used to destroy Blissey, it just wouldn't be too successful. You'd need to run counters/checks to the common steels to support it.
But also, I wouldn't say brightpowder sand veil would do well in ubers where you can just bring in Groudon and KO it.
But also, I wouldn't say brightpowder sand veil would do well in ubers where you can just bring in Groudon and KO it.
Just being able to beat Blissey isn't much of a feat in a Metagame where Skarmory and Bronzong are much more common switch-ins, especially considering that both Specs Seed Flaring Shaymin and SubSeeding Shaymin are capable of defeating Blissey (or at least forcing her out after a turn or two) anyways.
It would be possible to run SD skymin with magnezone support. All the bronzong and skarmories and steels in general don't run shed shell. This could get rid of your steel problem but i like the sub seed skymin the best.
I don't think latios would be that big of a problem for my team if it wasn't for trick. Without trick, bronzong beats it easily. so does blissey. Garchomp's not that big of a problem since special skarmory walls scarf and SD can be outsped. Just watch for sand veil...
I don't think latios would be that big of a problem for my team if it wasn't for trick. Without trick, bronzong beats it easily. so does blissey. Garchomp's not that big of a problem since special skarmory walls scarf and SD can be outsped. Just watch for sand veil...
I think this is more or less negated by the fact that Garchomp has the advantage of its "hax" not being messed up by priority users. Skymin can't flinch a Scizor that's trying to Bullet-Punch-revenge-kill it, but Garchomp can cause said Scizor to miss. This also applies to Scarfed Pokemon; any Scarfer faster than Skymin essentially negates its flinch-hax, but the same Scarfer faced with a Garchomp could still miss. Essentially, Garchomp's "hax" requires set-up but covers a wider range of possibilities.
I'd still say Skymin's is better, of course, simply because of the ridiculous percentages involved.
Garchomp has its advantages, such as you mentioned. I figured that advantage was negated by the fact there's a lot of relevant pokémon in that "faster than Garchomp but slower than Skymin" tier. Garchomp might avoid being revenge killed by Scizor and Mamoswine but, likewise, Skymin isn't revenged by Infernape or Gengar. Similarly, Garchomp can bypass "hax" by flat-out OHKOing more things after one SD but suffers where neither OHKO, such as Cresselia or Suicune. That's why I did not mention it.
A direct comparison is rather silly anyway. Garchomp is still plenty good enough to be considered uber. I personally don't believe it belongs but Skymin being "more" uber doesn't take away from Garchomp's potential. Dialga isn't in OU just because Kyogre is "more" uber than it, y'know?
VVV- Not that it matter but, to the person below me, Stealth Rock does inhibit Skymin's ability to switch in over time. Alas, Garchomp is equally hurt by Spikes and is absolutely crippled by Toxic Spikes, both of which Skymin ignore.
A direct comparison is rather silly anyway. Garchomp is still plenty good enough to be considered uber. I personally don't believe it belongs but Skymin being "more" uber doesn't take away from Garchomp's potential. Dialga isn't in OU just because Kyogre is "more" uber than it, y'know?
VVV- Not that it matter but, to the person below me, Stealth Rock does inhibit Skymin's ability to switch in over time. Alas, Garchomp is equally hurt by Spikes and is absolutely crippled by Toxic Spikes, both of which Skymin ignore.
On a side note, I haven't seen a single Gengar in this metagame. WOnder why?