np: Stage 3 - Family Reunion ("This Is Why I Created" Remix)

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Leech Seed is a better excuse because it's atleast something which most Pokemon don't have, though I don't find Leech Seed by itself to be devastating or anything, either. A parting gift of a +1 Return from a Curselax vs our beloved max SpD Skarm does 21.56% on average, about 3.5% less than the damage caused by two turns of Leech Seed. Yeah, you have to switch out to get rid of Leech Seed, but in all likelihood you'd be switching out the turn after anyway, as (assuming that Whirlwind didn't bring out an unfavorable match-up to begin with) I doubt that the opponent would sit there with a non-threatening Pokemon and let you lay down more Spikes or whatever.

There's a difference. If you Whirlwind in Metagross, you can Roost off the combined damage of Return and Meteor Mash, Spike, and Whirlwind it out at your leisure. On the other hand, if you're Leech Seeded, after you Roost, you're automatically down to 87.5%. Once you Whirlwind Metagross out, at best, you'll be generally be at 60% at best [87.5% - 6.25% (Leftovers/Leech Seed) - 20.66% (Max Atk Adamant Metagross's MM vs Max/Min Careful Skarmory)]. 54% if you have Shed Shell. Whereas, as Mr. E said, you would be up 25% if Leech Seed wasn't in play.

If Blissey switches into Jolteon twice it's probably going to be sitting around 50%, prompting it to heal, thus allowing whatever to switch in. Does SpecsJolt get the same bonus points in the Support Characteristic for this? Blissey might have to switch in twice for it to work with Jolteon, but on the other hand, you can't be exactly sure when Blissey will heal against a SubSeeding Skymin since it's only taking 6% per turn. Will it heal at 60%, or 46%?

SpecsJolt has easily exploitable, unswitchable attacks and does necessitate using Blissey to counter (neither does Shaymin, but its other counters can still be exploited). I'm not sure where you're going with this. Yes, that is support by definition, but you have to exercise discretion on the level of support given by a Pokemon.

 

[Head Smash]

I'm not really sure how stall teams have an easier time with Skymin than do offensive teams. If anything, I've found it very easy to get rid of Skymin on my offensive teams due to having things such as Lucario's LO Extremespeed and Scizor's CB Bullet Punch and very hard to get rid of it on my stall teams simply because switching back and forth can be very risky (with entry hazards up especially, if you haven't had the chance to remove those yet--also keep in mind that Skymin destroys most Rapid Spinners, so removing them isn't always possible).

I'm personally in favor of seeing Skymin and Garchomp leave. I don't get what the hype on Latios is; at the beginning of the test, I used to favor it going to Uber, but now I'm starting to change my mind. Its regular sets are stopped cold by Blissey or any special wall; any Scarfer can check it; Scizor can check it; the mixed DD set can't really kill most Steel types because of its low base Atk; and it has a Pursuit weakness. I actually find Latias to be more useful than Latios in the majority of my matches.

edit: Also, I agree with most of what Mr. E posted. Seems to me to be by far the most sensible poster so far in this thread.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

About out-stalling Shaymin.

If Blissey is leech seeded, then it is easy bait for any pursuiter. Particularly wish bliss.
<snip>
Yeah, leech seed shaymin is really, really hard to beat. By far the most uber of the pokemon remaining in my opinion.

Have a nice day.

Yeah, I didn't think Skymin was Uber before this test...but now that people have started wising up, its getting better and better. The Leech Seed set is almost impossible for stall to break, it is an absolute monster with Toxic Spikes support. Not to mention, the scarf set is perfectly viable and its basically the fastest pokemon in the game with a 60% flinch rate to abuse. People keep underestimating its 100 base HP. The evidence keeps piling up against Skymin being OU =\

Also, Garchomp is still proving to be just as awesome as everybody thought it was going to be. It still takes a team effort to slow it down, it still gets a KO in every match, it still has that amazing typing, etc etc. That 102 base speed is such a pain, it eliminates so many things from being able to force switches....not to mention that Swords Dance Garchomp is still the most prominent threat in the metagame. The list just goes on and on with things that make Garchomp overpowered, it perfectly fills the definition of the Offensive Characteristic of being Uber.

I think the most annoying part of Garchomp are its insanely good defenses...108/95/85 defenses are seriously underrated, and that doesnt even begin to account for Sand Veil =\. The fact that Garchomp still remains dominant despite the fact that it has a few more "checks" in this stage shows just how powerful it really is.

 

[d2m]

Skarmbliss is dominating the suspect ladder in my experience. Skarmory can take anything that Garchomp throws at it in stride outside of a CB fire fang, it can survive any of Shaymin's attacks with the SpD version everyone is running and OHKO back with Drill Peck. Skarmory can also take the odd Draco Meteor from Latios/as and wall it with Roost. Blissey is freaking blissey, it can take all the fire attacks aimed at Skarmory and pass status and wishes to the rest of the team.

The only real thing that can break it besides the odd Trick or Explosion (which are normally forseeable) is a SD Lucario, who finds nearly no time to setup and is outsped and OHKO'd by Garchomp, Skymin (Earth Power, HP Fire, or Air Slash if specs'd), and possibly Latios (with HP fire).

With the addition of Garchomp (any set, really), and Shaymin (Subseed preferably, but Specs/scarf could work), on top of Skarmbliss, stall becomes obscenely hard to handle.

 

[Mr.E]

"Skarmbliss" plus four offensive pokémon is not a stall team. -_- And Skymin gets raped by SD Lucario's Extremespeed.

That 102 base speed is such a pain, it eliminates so many things from being able to force switches....

It doesn't do much of anything except remove speed ties from the equation. :[ That alone is a significant plus (see: Deoxys-E), since 100 base is rather packed with great pokémon, but you'd still be taking a chance trying to "scare" it off with a Salamence or whatever if it was 100 base.

 

[Flashstorm1]

Skarmbliss is dominating the suspect ladder in my experience. Skarmory can take anything that Garchomp throws at it in stride outside of a CB fire fang, it can survive any of Shaymin's attacks with the SpD version everyone is running and OHKO back with Drill Peck. Skarmory can also take the odd Draco Meteor from Latios/as and wall it with Roost. Blissey is freaking blissey, it can take all the fire attacks aimed at Skarmory and pass status and wishes to the rest of the team.

The only real thing that can break it besides the odd Trick or Explosion (which are normally forseeable) is a SD Lucario, who finds nearly no time to setup and is outsped and OHKO'd by Garchomp, Skymin (Earth Power, HP Fire, or Air Slash if specs'd), and possibly Latios (with HP fire).

With the addition of Garchomp (any set, really), and Shaymin (Subseed preferably, but Specs/scarf could work), on top of Skarmbliss, stall becomes obscenely hard to handle.

I'm afraid I have to disagree with your reasoning here. The fact that you stated you use a SpDef version of Skarmory means that your once sturdy combo is now extremely weak against common Physical attacks. If you want some specific examples, check out my previous post. Out of interest, I'll go ahead and say 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory with a neutral nature is 2HKOed by DDGyara's boosted LO Waterfall and takes nearly 85% from SDChomp's boosted non-LO Fire Fang.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

And Skymin gets raped by SD Lucario's Extremespeed.

Umm, lol. Life Orb Adamant Lucario with max Atk vs 0 HP/0 Def Skymin:

350 Atk vs 186 Def & 341 HP (80 Base Power): 141 - 166 (41.35% - 48.68%)

You need to be Adamant and have SR up in order to 2hko Skymin with ExtremeSpeed, not to mention the fact that Lucario can't set up against Skymin. I would hardly call that "raping" Skymin, since Lucario needs to be set up already for it to win. People really underestimate that 100 base HP stat. So yeah, if Lucario already has an SD and SR support it can beat Skymin...other than that its helpless.

If your argument is that "skymin sucks because its ohkod by +2 Lucario with SR up"....then basically nothing is Uber =\

It doesn't do much of anything except remove speed ties from the equation. :[ That alone is a significant plus (see: Deoxys-E), since 100 base is rather packed with great pokémon, but you'd still be taking a chance trying to "scare" it off with a Salamence or whatever if it was 100 base.

Removing Speed ties is extremely significant, I agree. Instead of allowing Salamence or Jirachi to come in and threaten you, they just instantly die to Garchomp instead.

 

[Misa]

With all of the speed ties and Choice Scarf that seems to be going around, I find that Infernape is really useful wallbreaker in this metagame. He's able to put massive holes into the whole "SkarmBliss" combo, as well as being able to revenge-kill a lot of the suspects we have in the metagame. I'm not sure why people aren't using Infernape, but with all the steel types (especially Bronzong and Magnezone) going around, it's worth a try imo.

Also, Garchomp is still proving to be just as awesome as everybody thought it was going to be. It still takes a team effort to slow it down, it still gets a KO in every match, it still has that amazing typing, etc etc. That 102 base speed is such a pain, it eliminates so many things from being able to force switches....not to mention that Swords Dance Garchomp is still the most prominent threat in the metagame. The list just goes on and on with things that make Garchomp overpowered, it perfectly fills the definition of the Offensive Characteristic of being Uber.

Personally, I think that Garchomp has a really, really hard time sweeping teams nowdays, even with Swords Dance up its Sleeve. The Choice of Berries for the Swords Dance set can be really, really hard to decide, as equipping one berry opens up a whole another list of checks for Garchomp to sweep. Swords Dance Chomp is hardly a threat to this metagame, and I think he's a complete joke compared to things like SubSeed Skymin and even Lucario imo. Choice Band Garchomp however, is quite nice.

Oh yea, Choice Specs Latios is still working as great as ever, especially with Trick crippling many of the prominent walls in this suspect metagame, such as Skarmory and Bronzong.

I think the most annoying part of Garchomp are its insanely good defenses...108/95/85 defenses are seriously underrated, and that doesnt even begin to account for Sand Veil =\. The fact that Garchomp still remains dominant despite the fact that it has a few more "checks" in this stage shows just how powerful it really is.

As much as people think that Garchomp's defenses are underrated, people don't seem to have any problems with dealing with it for the most part.

 

[wildfire393]

Anyone think that Specs Garchomp might be pretty good for the surprise factor? No one in their right mind will switch a Blissey into Garchomp (and a 4 attack/neutral nature Outrage can be run to ensure a 2HKO on 0/252 Calm Blissey factoring in rocks and leftovers), Specs Fire Blast does 85-100% to 252/252+ special defense Skarm and 60-71 to 252/252+ special defense Bronzong, Specs Draco Meteor hits like a ton of bricks (obviously nowhere near as hard as Latios/Latias/Salamence, but still hard enough to annihilate anything not resistant to it or named Blissey), and Earth Power rounds out the set with a clean OHKO (with space to spare) against 252/0 Metagross, 80/0 Jirachi, and 0/0 Heatran (even with a Shuca berry).

 

[Darkmalice]

Anyone think that Specs Garchomp might be pretty good for the surprise factor? No one in their right mind will switch a Blissey into Garchomp (and a 4 attack/neutral nature Outrage can be run to ensure a 2HKO on 0/252 Calm Blissey factoring in rocks and leftovers), Specs Fire Blast does 85-100% to 252/252+ special defense Skarm and 60-71 to 252/252+ special defense Bronzong, Specs Draco Meteor hits like a ton of bricks (obviously nowhere near as hard as Latios/Latias/Salamence, but still hard enough to annihilate anything not resistant to it or named Blissey), and Earth Power rounds out the set with a clean OHKO (with space to spare) against 252/0 Metagross, 80/0 Jirachi, and 0/0 Heatran (even with a Shuca berry).

80 base SpA. Not particularly impressive. If you want a strong Draco Meteor with Garchomp, use Chain Chomp. Most of the generic Chomp switch-ins (depending on the situation, (cause everything has some risk when switching in) Skarmory, Bronzong, Scizor, some bulky waters, Latios and Latias) would take less damage from Specs Draco Meteor than Band Outrage. And Band Earthquake is obviously better than Specs Earth Power. There's a reason why there's plently of Band and Scarf Flygon in OU, but no Specs Flygon.

 

[wildfire393]

80 base SpA. Not particularly impressive. If you want a strong Draco Meteor with Garchomp, use Chain Chomp. Most of the generic Chomp switch-ins (depending on the situation, (cause everything has some risk when switching in) Skarmory, Bronzong, Scizor, some bulky waters, Latios and Latias) would take less damage from Specs Draco Meteor than Band Outrage. And Band Earthquake is obviously better than Specs Earth Power. There's a reason why there's plently of Band and Scarf Flygon in OU, but no Specs Flygon.

A couple things of note (using Modest/252 Garchomp, or Flygon I suppose as well considering it has the same SpA, and Adamant/252 for the Physical Attacks):

Specs Fireblast has a small chance to OHKO 252 HP/252+ SpD Skarmory without Stealth Rocks and a fairly large chance to do so without them. Banded Fire Fang does at most 62% to the same Skarm (and flygon's fire punch maxes out at 60%
Specs Draco Meteor does about 8% less to Standard vaporeon, still enough to easily 2HKO it (barring a rare minimum damage on both hits), and will never leave Garchomp stuck on the move for a third turn while the opponent sets up something devastating like a Lucario/Scizor Swords Dance, then a second on the turn you have to switch. Draco Meteor also deals more to dedicated physical walls like Hippowdon.
Specs Earth Power does a more to some common Garchomp Switch-ins who invest heavily in defense and have a higher natural defense than special defense, like Metagross and Swampert.

But yeah, I'm actually considering Specs Flygon now, since I now realize he has the same Special Attack Stat and available moves as Garchomp does, only with access to U-turn to scout (though this would probably give away that something is odd when the damage output comes out so low).

 

[tab]

Specs doesn't really work too well, you might do a lot of damage to something early on because of the suprise factor, but once they've realised you have a spec Garchomp, it's incredibly easy to wall. Chain Chomp realy is much better, it's got the same suprise factor and ability to beat the common walls, but can still hit hard physically.

 

[wildfire393]

Specs doesn't really work too well, you might do a lot of damage to something early on because of the suprise factor, but once they've realised you have a spec Garchomp, it's incredibly easy to wall. Chain Chomp realy is much better, it's got the same suprise factor and ability to beat the common walls, but can still hit hard physically.

I'm curious what precisely can wall the following Garchomp set:

Garchomp @ Choice Specs
Rash/Mild (+SpA/ -SpD/Def)
252 SpA/252 Speed / 6 Attack
Fire Blast
Draco Meteor
Earth Power
Outrage

As stated earlier, Outrage will 2HKO standard Blissey. Fireblast will 2HKO Specially Defensive Bronzong and Skarmory (with a chance of OHKO on Skarm). Earth Power OHKOs just about every other Steel Type, while Draco Meteor can 2HKO just about everything else bar Cresselia. Given perfect prediction (a bad assumption, admittedly), that seems pretty deadly to me, or at the very least opens up holes in the opposing team. Honestly though, I'm a little more excited about the same set on Flygon with U-Turn over Outrage. It loses the ability to beat Blissey for a great scouting ability, and can still hammer everything else just as hard, while hopefully prying an opening for Garchomp or another physical sweeper.

 

[M Dragon]

Garchomp @ Choice Band
Jolly (+Spd/ -SpAtk)
252 Atk/ 252 Spd
-Outrage
-Dragon Claw
-Earthquake
-Fire Fang

Fire Fang will also 2HKO sp def skarm and bronzong, while Outrage will 2HKO every non steel poke, and it hits everything much harder.
CB set also lets you having more speed

 

[d2m]

"Skarmbliss" plus four offensive pokémon is not a stall team. -_- And Skymin gets raped by SD Lucario's Extremespeed.

Most that I've seen include Swampert/Bulkydos and/or Zong on top of Skarmbliss, Latios/Shaymin, and Garchomp. Lots of entry hazards, plus threatens setup on the other stall team...it almost makes me want to use it. (And I think I will when I get the chance to start again.

Also no on the Extremespeed (as posted above).

 

[wildfire393]

Garchomp @ Choice Band
Jolly (+Spd/ -SpAtk)
252 Atk/ 252 Spd
-Outrage
-Dragon Claw
-Earthquake
-Fire Fang

Fire Fang will also 2HKO sp def skarm and bronzong, while Outrage will 2HKO every non steel poke, and it hits everything much harder.
CB set also lets you having more speed

The problem is the inflexibility of Outrage. If you Draco Meteor, you are free to switch out the following turn. If you Outrage and they outpredict and switch in a Steel, they get 1-2 more turns for "free" while you are stuck on your Outrage. Similarly, if you Outrage and they sacrifice something, they are free to bring in any revenge killer.

Also 252/252+ Hippowdon can live two Outrages (though there is a chance it still KOs). Regirock (rare as he is) takes only 35-42% if he's max/max bold, Cloyster has a chance of living the second hit, and 252/252+ Cresselia (the only of these that you are probably likely to see) takes a 42-50%, meaning it has a very good chance of surviving two hits, even with rocks down.

But yes, I cede that that set is more powerful overall, I'm just poking the holes in it that need to be poked.

 

[Misa]

Garchomp @ Choice Band
Jolly (+Spd/ -SpAtk)
252 Atk/ 252 Spd
-Outrage
-Dragon Claw
-Earthquake
-Fire Fang

Fire Fang will also 2HKO sp def skarm and bronzong, while Outrage will 2HKO every non steel poke, and it hits everything much harder.
CB set also lets you having more speed

I personally think that the Choice Band is one of the best sets for Garchomp as well. Seeing that Garchomp usually gets brought out late game, you should have no problems with sweeping with most of the steels dented/eliminated already.

I'm not sure about Fire Fang 2HKOing Skarm and Bronzong, but would Stone Edge be a good option to hit Gyarados and other flyers instead?

 

[tab]

Fire Fang does 2HKO them. Stone Edge works, but Gyarados hates switching into SR+Dragon Claw anyway.

 

[wildfire393]

I personally think that the Choice Band is one of the best sets for Garchomp as well. Seeing that Garchomp usually gets brought out late game, you should have no problems with sweeping with most of the steels dented/eliminated already.

I'm not sure about Fire Fang 2HKOing Skarm and Bronzong, but would Stone Edge be a good option to hit Gyarados and other flyers instead?

Fire Fang does 2HKO them. Stone Edge works, but Gyarados hates switching into SR+Dragon Claw anyway.

Fire Fang 2HKOs assuming that they are running the Specially Defensive versions commonly seen in the Suspect Test. 252/252+ Bronzong and Skarmory cannot be 2HKOd by Banded Fire Fang (though Bronzong will easily be 3HKOd, meaning it cannot stall out the attack with Rest, while the combined chances of Flinch, Burn, and Critical make it nearly impossible for Skarm to stall out Fire Fang with Roost. He has more life to spare, but will still be cleanly 3HKOd)

 

[M Dragon]

We are talking about the suspect ladder, and in suspect ladder skarm and bronzong are going to be sp def (because manaphy, latios, latias and skymin), so Fire Fang is going to 2HKO them with rocks. If skarm is not specially deffensive, it won't be able to stall the Fire Fang

 

[franky]

If you guys are worried about Shaymin-S, Dragonite is a pretty good check. Inner Focus renders the second effect of Air Slash while you are resistant to Seed Flare and is immune to Earth Power. Dragon Dance beats SubLeech sets. I've been pretty succesful with Dragonite in my team.

 

[Mr.E]

I like how Garchomp is getting more credit than it deserves as an offensive threat, simply because all the other suspects have made defensive pokémon more Special-heavy and thus less able to deal with the only one that's actually Physical. -_- Well, DD Latios...

Dragon Dance beats SubLeech sets.

No, no it doesn't. Only combined with Roost does it even give Dragonite a chance.

 

[StarmanXL]

I have been using Dragonite on one of my suspect teams and so far it has proven useful...well, for me at least. I've been using the support set. I haven't tried a DD set yet, although I guess the rationale behind it is it prevents non-scarf Garchomp and Latios and maybe Manaphy from coming in and setting up on you.

 

[franky]

I've been running a bulky Dragonite @ Haban Berry. It is pretty successful on my part. I forgot the EV spread but I omitted Life Orb for Leftovers to accomplish my plan to beat Shaymin-S while beating these Dragon-types.

 

[MegaKick]

Has anyone else been running mix latios? Destroys stall teams.

Latios @ Life Orb/Expert Belt/Lum Berry/etc
Naughty
100 att, 252 spe, 156 sp.att
Dragon Dance
Outrage/Dragon Claw
Hidden Power fire
Draco Meteor/surf

Unsure of Ev's and nature, have tried several, can anyone help?

Bring this in on something like skarmory. Dragon Dance as they switch. When they see the dance, hope they run to skarmory or hippo, and dance again on the switch. Take out skarm with hp:fire and hippo with d-meteor, then sweep with +2 outrage. Can use dragon claw if you don't want to be locked in, or surf for better coverage, particularly on heatran