np: Stage 3 - Family Reunion ("This Is Why I Created" Remix)

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Skymin does very little to no supporting for any of its teammates. Often times, it is the member of the team that the other pokemon are trying to support. Yes, it whittles down opponents with Leech Seed, but this rarely kills more than one pokemon, if anything, and can hardly be called support, much less fitting the uber support characteristic. NO

I would call it support. Shaymin forces your opponent to use Scarf Heatran or Jirachi. Once they break its Sub, they've revealed what move they're locked into, giving Latios a free switch into a Fire Blast or Lucario a free switch into Ice Punch. When Skarmory Whirlwinds its Substitute away, it's down to 87.5% from Stealth Rock + Leech Seed (75% if it has Shed Shell) and it's potentially bringing in a compromising Pokemon. If you bring Blissey in, it can start SubSeeding until you are forced to Softboiled, and then try its luck with Seed Flare / Air Slash or simply switch in Metagross or Scizor, without much fear that it will Flamethrower.

 

[Bologo]

I would call it support. Shaymin forces your opponent to use Scarf Heatran or Jirachi. Once they break its Sub, they've revealed what move they're locked into, giving Latios a free switch into a Fire Blast or Lucario a free switch into Ice Punch. When Skarmory Whirlwinds its Substitute away, it's down to 87.5% from Stealth Rock + Leech Seed (75% if it has Shed Shell) and it's potentially bringing in a compromising Pokemon. If you bring Blissey in, it can start SubSeeding until you are forced to Softboiled, and then try its luck with Seed Flare / Air Slash or simply switch in Metagross or Scizor, without much fear that it will Flamethrower.

Note that in the support characteristic, it has to be able to consistently set up a situation for other members of the team to sweep.

From what I can see in your scenario, this is not so. Skymin will not consistently force people to use Scarf Heatran or Jirachi. Also, Skarmory's Whirlwind bringing in a damaging pokemon is not support, that's just bad luck. In addition, how is SubSeeding Blissey (even though it could win with Wish/Protect) support? I suppose that Blissey does wall a lot of special attackers, but that's definitely not being overly supportive.

Also, how do these things actually make Skymin fill the uber characteristic for support? From what I can tell, this is definitely not the kind of support that would warrant banning.

 

[Mr.E]

IIRC, the Garchomp vote was about 2:1 in favor of banning it. However, Garchomp had a lot of bias against it long before the vote that I suspect made it look worse than it really is. That was also before Platinum, where Scizor is as good a check against Garchomp as it is for everything else.

Skymin could put a Sub up as the opponent faints if they're faster and die to Leech Seed. But usually the opponent will be slower, kill the Sub as it dies, and then get a free shot at an unprotected Skymin. Nobody can afford sacrificing a pokémon every time, though. At least when Garchomp forces a sacrifice, it's usually almost dead after eating a berry-weakened Ice/Dragon attack or draining its own health with Substitute. :P

Lol, Skymin is not a support pokémon. The only thing it sets up to sweep is itself. ;/ However, I'd certainly assert that "it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort." Its speed and power kills offensive teams, SubSeed kills stall, and its counters that don't get assed by very reasonable secondary effects are few and far between.

My problem with your thinking here is that you are once again factoring in the luck / ability of Shaymin-S which is just a huge mistake. As I said before, to eliminate many of its counters, it must rely on 38% accuracy. And it has plenty of checks / counters. I can list them for you if that would help:

[pkmn]

Many more...

Many pokémon are 100% countered by trappers, including Skarmory, Scizor, Heatran, most things weak to Pursuit. For some non-trapping examples, see Infernape against a Cresselia switch-in, Heracross against Gliscor, stuff like that. A 38% chance at beating its full-health counters, or ~32.5% for a double flinch, is actually pretty good. (More likely than Articuno OHKOing Metagross on the switch with Sheer Cold! lol :P) Even three straight flinches is nearly as likely as "Sand Veil hax," (~18.5%) built into its STAB attacks and not reliant on Sand Stream being active.

At any rate, anything faster could be a Skymin check. This is true of most any offensive pokémon but Skymin is faster than nearly everything, limiting its checks almost entirely to Scarf and priority users. The only pokémon on that list that could be considered a counter is Blissey, specifically of the Wish/Protect variety, or the unmentioned Wish Jirachi. (You need Wish to keep your other pokémon alive while switching out of Leech Seed and SpD drops, especially if the opponent has entry hazards up.) All those other so-called counters lose to the SubSeed strategy or 1-2 untimely flinches, depending on whether they have enough HP-SpD investment to survive more than two turns.

Your mentioning of Muk reminded me that Liquid Ooze is also a SubSeed counterstrategy. (EVEN THOUGH MUK DOESN'T GET IT WTF GAME FREAK) Leech Seed still damages you in the process, however, so it's very limited. Sleep Talk Tentacruel = third hard counter? *shrug* Using Swalot is even sillier than using Cradily.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Note that in the support characteristic, it has to be able to consistently set up a situation for other members of the team to sweep.

From what I can see in your scenario, this is not so. Skymin will not consistently force people to use Scarf Heatran or Jirachi. Also, Skarmory's Whirlwind bringing in a damaging pokemon is not support, that's just bad luck. In addition, how is SubSeeding Blissey (even though it could win with Wish/Protect) support? I suppose that Blissey does wall a lot of special attackers, but that's definitely not being overly supportive.

Also, how do these things actually make Skymin fill the uber characteristic for support? From what I can tell, this is definitely not the kind of support that would warrant banning.

It doesn't consistently force people to use scarfed x, but Shaymin can still create compromising situations with other Pokemon.

For Skarmory, Shaymin forces it to Whirlwind. Say Whirlwind brings in Infernape. Shaymin has set up a situation in which a Pokemon (Infernape) can sweep more easily, which is support. Skarmory would have to Whirlwind out something nonthreatening for Shaymin to not have supported its team, and when you think about it, there aren't many Pokemon that pose no threat at all to a Leech Seeded Skarmory. Metagross and DDTar becomes much harder to wall, etc. However, I suppose that it depends on what you view consistently as and whether or not one would consider a commonly or uncommonly used Pokemon.

I'm not sure how Blissey wins with Wish/Protect support, but it's the same thing. Once you force Blissey into healing, you can switch in something without fear it will be hit with an attack. It's easier to sweep with Metagross if it can be sure it's not switching into Thunder Wave or Flamethrower. If Blissey does Thunder Wave or Flamethrower, it should be at pretty low health, in which case you've created a situation in which your Choice Specs Latios can easily sweep later.

 

[Scofield]

Okay, time for me to post in this topic.

First, Garchomp is every bit the monster that he used to be. I absolutely love teams that use a scarf latias/latios as their garchomp check. I get off that swords dance, survive with haban berry and proceed to sweep in the late game. Haban is the new yache. Chomp's tendency to use attack decreasing berries also aids in helping it play mind games. Yache or haban? Maybe it's scarfed or banded? No pokemon is as easy to bluff with as garchomp. One wrong move and you're losing a pokemon or two, just like in the old days.

Last time around I voted skymin Uber, but immidiately regretted that decision. Now, I no longer feel that way, lol. I don't know how it's possible for a pure special pokemon to have no counters, but this guy has no counters! Spikes + Toxic spikes + SR + sub + leech seed+ 57% chance of flinch makes it an unbelievably awesome pokemon that is nigh impossible to counter.

 

[WJC3688]

It doesn't consistently force people to use scarfed x, but Shaymin can still create compromising situations with other Pokemon.

For Skarmory, Shaymin forces it to Whirlwind. Say Whirlwind brings in Infernape. Shaymin has set up a situation in which a Pokemon (Infernape) can sweep more easily, which is support. Skarmory would have to Whirlwind out something nonthreatening for Shaymin to not have supported its team, and when you think about it, there aren't many Pokemon that pose no threat at all to a Leech Seeded Skarmory. Metagross and DDTar becomes much harder to wall, etc. However, I suppose that it depends on what you view consistently as and whether or not one would consider a commonly or uncommonly used Pokemon.

I'm not sure how Blissey wins with Wish/Protect support, but it's the same thing. Once you force Blissey into healing, you can switch in something without fear it will be hit with an attack. It's easier to sweep with Metagross if it can be sure it's not switching into Thunder Wave or Flamethrower. If Blissey does Thunder Wave or Flamethrower, it should be at pretty low health, in which case you've created a situation in which your Choice Specs Latios can easily sweep later.

So basically, doing anything classifies as support? That's how I'm reading it......if using Whirlwind on something gives the target Pokemon positive points because something unfavorable could come in, then pretty much any Pokemon has support potential, since anything can be phazed. Indeed by this logic phazers should never be used; if by phazing a Pokemon, that Pokemon is being considered Uber under the Support Characteristic because you phazed it, then clearly phazing moves are extremely detrimental since something unfavorable could always be switched in. Why, then, are phazing moves still used?

If forcing Blissey to heal gives you support points, then tons of random Pokemon get support points for the ability of damaging walls to the point they must heal, basically anything really, as anything can just keep attacking a wall until it's forced to heal, at which point you get that "free switch" and your Pokemon now gets "support points." Anything that can do any damage to anything would qualify as a support Pokemon, no? Sacrificing any number of Pokemon to Garchomp in order to bring within KO range of SD Luke's Extremespeed, for example saccing your Metagross but hitting with Bullet Punch before you die, would qualify as support as it would allow Luke to sweep easier. Does this mean Metagross should be banned under the Support Characteristic?

Its speed and power kills offensive teams, SubSeed kills stall, and its counters that don't get assed by very reasonable secondary effects are few and far between.

SubSeed hardly kills stall. Any stall team can just repeatedly switch between Blissey and Skarm, Blissey comes in, uses Wish, switches to Skarm, switch back to Blissey, rinse and repeat, use Protect after Wish whenever Blissey's health gets too low. Skymin is easily PP stalled and totally unable to do anything at all. You can get that "free switch" by predicting a switch to Blissey and bringing in whatever physical attacker as the switch happens, but the same can be done with pretty much any powerful special attacker, Specs Latios can do the same thing, it's not anything special for Skymin. Offensive teams are often the ones with no good answer to SubSeed.

 

[Kay [Old]]

Spikes + Toxic spikes + SR + sub + leech seed+ 57% chance of flinch makes it an unbelievably awesome pokemon that is nigh impossible to counter.

Sp. Def. Skarm laughs at Subseed Skymin, and not many Pokemon have counters if you can get Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and SR set up, after all. That said, I am unsure on how one deals with that thing outside of Skarm - I think I'll try using the thing myself and see what happens.

 

[Scofield]

Sp. Def. Skarm laughs at Subseed Skymin, and not many Pokemon have counters if you can get Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and SR set up, after all. That said, I am unsure on how one deals with that thing outside of Skarm - I think I'll try using the thing myself and see what happens.

Lol, I didn't address it because Eu addressed it in the post directly above mine. Skarm absolutely has to whirlwind, if he whilrwinds in something like infernape, he's in trouble, etc. You're also forcing skarm to do something outside of it's range, investing in special defense means it can't deal with tar as well or boosted fire fangs from chomp.

And yes, a lot of pokemon appreciate all of that support, but skymin utilizes it in a way that is flat out confusing, in other words, better than most pokemon can (garchomp, lucario, infernape, gyarados are the only 4 I can really name that love it almost as much as skymin does), it is the only special type pokemon that is capable of defeating blissey without high levels of boosting , and it doesn't even need to attack.

 

[Fleursily34]

Well, Shaymin-s has the Offensive Characteristic down to an artform.

If Shaymin-s takes out something with it's Offense, that would otherwise be difficult for the rest of your team. That would be defined as both indirect Defensive and directive Support characteristics.

 

[Bologo]

Well, Shaymin-s has the Offensive Characteristic down to an artform.

If Shaymin-s takes out something with it's offense, that would otherwise be difficult for the rest of your team. That would be defined as both indirect Defensive and directive Support characteristics.

Explain how it has the offensive characteristic "down to an artform". Does it consistently sweep through teams with little to no effort in common battling conditions?

Also, your last paragraph is irrelevant. Do you honestly think that taking out a pokemon that would otherwise fuck up the team is filling the Defensive and Support characteristics? Being able to take out imminent threats to the team is kind of...why pokemon is a team game. Also, do you even know what those characteristics mean? Because, if you don't know, they're characteristics that when filled, would warrant a pokemon to be BANNED. Helping out the team by killing an imminent threat warrants banning? No, it obviously doesn't.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

So basically, doing anything classifies as support?

Yes. Whether it is Uber, however, depends on how much Support is given.

This is how I'm reading it......if using Whirlwind on something gives the target Pokemon positive points because something unfavorable could come in, then pretty much any Pokemon has support potential, since anything can be phazed. Indeed by this logic phazers should never be used; if by phazing a Pokemon, that Pokemon is being considered Uber under the Support Characteristic because you phazed it, then clearly phazing moves are extremely detrimental since something unfavorable could always be switched in. Why, then, are phazing moves still used?

I'm saying Whirlwind is a pretty iffy way of dealing with a SubSeeder. If you Whirlwind CurseLax and you get a Metagross, that's fine, it can't really beat you unless you let it get enough attack boosts, so just Roost / Whirlwind again. If you Whirlwind Shaymin and get Metagross, you have to cope with Leech Seed damage.

If forcing Blissey to heal gives you support points, then tons of random Pokemon get support points for the ability of damaging walls to the point they must heal, basically anything really, as anything can just keep attacking a wall until it's forced to heal, at which point you get that "free switch" and your Pokemon now gets "support points." Anything that can do any damage to anything would qualify as a support Pokemon, no? Sacrificing any number of Pokemon to Garchomp in order to bring within KO range of SD Luke's Extremespeed, for example saccing your Metagross but hitting with Bullet Punch before you die, would qualify as support as it would allow Luke to sweep easier. Does this mean Metagross should be banned under the Support Characteristic?

Blissey can't actually do anything to SubSeed Shaymin, while it exploits it at its leisure. I guess my example of Blissey was more to demonstrate that it can't counter SubSeed Shaymin.

 

[forbidden]

Sp. Def. Skarm laughs at Subseed Skymin, and not many Pokemon have counters if you can get Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and SR set up, after all. That said, I am unsure on how one deals with that thing outside of Skarm - I think I'll try using the thing myself and see what happens.

No, sp.def skarm dies if it switches into Stealth Rock/Seed Flare(sp.def drop) and gets flinched once. Bronzong is way better at countering skymin and I saw someone use Dragonite too which is fabulous vs Skymin.

 

[RBG]

No, sp.def skarm dies if it switches into Stealth Rock/Seed Flare(sp.def drop) and gets flinched once. Bronzong is way better at countering skymin and I saw someone use Dragonite too which is fabulous vs Skymin.

.85*.80*.95*.60 = 38.76% percent chance of Seed Flare SpD drop and then An air slash Flinch. Not to mention, you have to predict the Switch in, which makes the chance of it happening even less likely. Are you willing to risk a Shaymin-s on those odds to kill a Skarmory? Especially when it can either roost, whirlwind, or brave bird.

 

[WJC3688]

Yes. Whether it is Uber, however, depends on how much Support is given.

So, why even have the Offensive and Defensive characteristics, when any action already falls under the Support Characteristic? I'm not attacking the way that Suspects are determined, I'm just curious as to the exact definition of "Support."

I'm saying Whirlwind is a pretty iffy way of dealing with a SubSeeder. If you Whirlwind CurseLax and you get a Metagross, that's fine, it can't really beat you unless you let it get enough attack boosts, so just Roost / Whirlwind again. If you Whirlwind Shaymin and get Metagross, you have to cope with Leech Seed damage.

So Skymin is better at making things phaze it because it leaves Leech Seed behind? I would imagine that phazing stat-boosted Pokemon leaves atleast as much if not more damage behind from that Pokemon's parthian shot.

Blissey can't actually do anything to SubSeed Shaymin, while it exploits it at its leisure. I guess my example of Blissey was more to demonstrate that it can't counter SubSeed Shaymin.

Depending on how the dice fall, it can. Skymin will need to get at least one Seed Flare SpD drop in order to have a reasonable chance of beating it, at which point Blissey can simply switch to any Steel-type, and then back in to rid itself of Leech Seed and restore its SpD. A Blissey with Wish to heal an incoming Steel-type can just switch between itself and said Steel until Skymin is out of PP on atleast one of its moves, possibly more. Considering the usefulness of Steel-types in the current metagame I'd even go so far as to say that the presence of a Steel teammate qualifies as a common battling condition.

Really, though, the point wasn't about whether or not Blissey "counters" Skymin, it was about your claim that Skymin allowing something to switch into Blissey when it heals qualifies as "support," to which I replied that almost any Pokemon can just attack a wall until it heals, thus this is not any sort of special trait which only Skymin is capable of.

 

[Flashstorm1]

I feel that Shaymin-s currently falls into a similar issue that befell Latios during its suspect testing and thereafter. As Legacy Raider confirmed that Latios's constant ability to deal large amounts of damage to the opponent's Pokémon warranted an Uber rating for the support characteristic, I feel that the same could apply to Shaymin-s. Shaymin-s's large unpredictability makes it difficult to name an exact counter, as one variant's counters lose to the other. I faced a SpecsMin earlier today, and I found it was extremely difficult to counter without an effective form of priority or a Special Defense dedicated counter, such as Metagross (who really shouldn't have to run a Trapper set just to counter it anyways, or Skarmory, who was eventually beaten due to flinch hax; Note that I was running SpDef Skarmory as well).

Lol, I didn't address it because Eu addressed it in the post directly above mine. Skarm absolutely has to whirlwind, if he whilrwinds in something like infernape, he's in trouble, etc. You're also forcing skarm to do something outside of it's range, investing in special defense means it can't deal with tar as well or boosted fire fangs from chomp.

And yes, a lot of pokemon appreciate all of that support, but skymin utilizes it in a way that is flat out confusing, in other words, better than most pokemon can (garchomp, lucario, infernape, gyarados are the only 4 I can really name that love it almost as much as skymin does), it is the only special type pokemon that is capable of defeating blissey without high levels of boosting , and it doesn't even need to attack.

I also have to agree with Scofield on the particular subject of centralization factor that Shaymin-s is currently having in the suspect ladder. Such an investment of Special Defense in Pokémon like Skarmory reduces its ability to take Physical hits. In my own battles, I found Skarmory taking approximately 80% from SDChomp's Fire Fang and a near 2HKO from DDGyara's boosted Waterfall. Through this particular example, I find that Shaymin-s fills the support characteristic, as its very existence in the current metagame makes it easier for other Pokémon to sweep.

In short, I find Shaymin-s's versality and and support options to indicate it as being worthy of the Uber status at the moment, but I may find my opinions to change in the upcoming future with further testing. My teams, as of yet, are not fully offensive, so after testing such teams, I will come back with results.

 

[RBG]

I also have to agree with Scofield on the particular subject of centralization factor that Shaymin-s is currently having in the suspect ladder. Such an investment of Special Defense in Pokémon like Skarmory reduces its ability to take Physical hits. In my own battles, I found Skarmory taking approximately 80% from SDChomp's Fire Fang and a near 2HKO from DDGyara's boosted Waterfall. Through this particular example, I find that Shaymin-s fills the support characteristic, as its very existence in the current metagame makes it easier for other Pokémon to sweep.

It's not just the fact that Shaymin-s is around. Latios, Latias, and even Manaphy are laughed at by Skarmory when it is invested in its special Defense. Rather than saying one of the Pokemon is the cause of this, it would be more true to say that since everyone is using these Suspects, a majority of which are viewed as special sweepers, it makes Special Skarmory more useful, making it weaker physically. I would not lay all the blame of this on just Shaymin-s.

 

[Flashstorm1]

It's not just the fact that Shaymin-s is around. Latios, Latias, and even Manaphy are laughed at by Skarmory when it is invested in its special Defense. Rather than saying one of the Pokemon is the cause of this, it would be more true to say that since everyone is using these Suspects, a majority of which are viewed as special sweepers, it makes Special Skarmory more useful, making it weaker physically. I would not lay all the blame of this on just Shaymin-s.

You make a valid point that I appeared to miss. After what you stated, I agree with the same myself. However, I'm sure you may also agree that out of the list that has been mentioned in the other posts, Skarmory is the only Pokémon that can actually fare against the SubSeeder without risk to itself. Apart from that, I still find it dissapointing that Skarmory can still lose to Shaymin-s if you get unlucky.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

So, why even have the Offensive and Defensive characteristics, when any action already falls under the Support Characteristic? I'm not attacking the way that Suspects are determined, I'm just curious as to the exact definition of "Support."

I think it would depend on who is doing the actual sweeping.

So Skymin is better at making things phaze it because it leaves Leech Seed behind? I would imagine that phazing stat-boosted Pokemon leaves atleast as much if not more damage behind from that Pokemon's parthian shot.

Depends on the Pokemon. CurseLax, CurseTyranitar, non-Sleep Talk CMCune, etc., no. CMRaikou? Yes, and it's pretty accepted that you should not use Skarmory to phaze it out. And then with Leech Seed you can't Roost it all off if something like Metagross switches in; you're guaranteed to be at 87.5% at best (Leftovers) by the time you WW it out.

Depending on how the dice fall, it can. Skymin will need to get at least one Seed Flare SpD drop in order to have a reasonable chance of beating it, at which point Blissey can simply switch to any Steel-type, and then back in to rid itself of Leech Seed and restore its SpD. A Blissey with Wish to heal an incoming Steel-type can just switch between itself and said Steel until Skymin is out of PP on atleast one of its moves, possibly more. Considering the usefulness of Steel-types in the current metagame I'd even go so far as to say that the presence of a Steel teammate qualifies as a common battling condition.

PP stalling seems very inefficient to me. I admit it never really occurred to me, but generally, how much Wish PP is left after that, anyway?

Really, though, the point wasn't about whether or not Blissey "counters" Skymin, it was about your claim that Skymin allowing something to switch into Blissey when it heals qualifies as "support," to which I replied that almost any Pokemon can just attack a wall until it heals, thus this is not any sort of special trait which only Skymin is capable of.

If it were another Pokemon, Blissey would be able to attack (and beat it if it stayed in). (ie; Empoleon, Jolteon). It cannot do this to Shaymin because of Leech Seed recovering more health than Substitute. Basically, Shaymin suffers practically no disadvantages when it does this.

 

[Mr.E]

GS-Zubat is a smart man, though I wouldn't say SpD Skarm "laughs" at Manaphy. Surf is a 3HKO from any offensive set with neither rain nor Tail Glow boosts

WJC, pseudohazing obviously still has many uses, not the least of which is pushing excessive entry hazard damage onto the enemy team regardless of the pokémon you're facing. It scouts teams (and avoids the embarrassment of your Skarmory getting trapped by Magnezone second turn), it gets rid of dangerous pokémon until they become more manageable later, and so on. But with a Leech Seed on you, you've already taken 25% damage just to switch in and roar/WW, not including SR or any damage from the opponent's actual attack. And with Leech Seed making it almost impossible to wall much of anything, the pseudohazer will likely have to switch next turn in a weakened state and be unable to stop the SubSeeder next time it sets up. That's the difference between pseudohazing a SubSeeder and a stat-booster.

As far as the Latios comparison is concerned, Skymin is less susceptible to Pursuit, harder to revenge kill because it's faster, and more likely to beat its potential counters with "hax." Latios has its advantages over Skymin, great resists for one, but Skymin is more of a raw offensive threat. Latios is more hit-and-run, not being weak to SR and having to switch out of Draco Meteor debuffs.

"SubSeed hardly kills stall. ... Offensive teams are often the ones with no good answer to SubSeed."

More generally, stall relies largely on status and entry hazard damage to defeat its opponents. They don't get that damage if the opponent digs in for 10 turns with a SubSeeder, can't status a Substitute (and Skymin is immune to TSpikes), and it typically has less offensive options for beating the strategy. (Fewer priority attacks, faster pokémon, revenge kill options.) The only reason stall would have any success beating it is because stall teams are more likely to pack its most reliable counters.

Regarding the previously mentioned ST Tentacruel, I checked the damage and Air Slash is a 3HKO almost no matter what. :( Only a 43% counter,

I'm not sure how Blissey wins with Wish/Protect support

Wish/Protect Blissey "wins" simply by PP stalling Skymin. It can't push through enough damage to kill Blissey and Wish allows it to switch out of Leech Seed and defense drops without Skymin being able to kill the switch-in. Jirachi does the same thing better -- it can use U-Turn instead of a normal switch and is less vulnerable to Pursuit -- but cannot handle absorbing status at the same time, as BRN damage cuts into its HP too much and PAR only makes it more likely for Skymin to eventually flinchhax it down. (Blissey has Natural Cure.) Calm Zapdos has solo viability with Pressure + Roost but the SR weakness really hurts and it dies if it takes a SF SpD drop.

None of these, of course, actually manage to kill Skymin. If you run out of things to switch in and take hits while dumping Leech Seed + SpD drops, Skymin will eventually beat all of them anyway. A SubSeeder already set up is very difficult to beat with any single pokémon.

First, Garchomp is every bit the monster that he used to be. I absolutely love teams that use a scarf latias/latios as their garchomp check. I get off that swords dance, survive with haban berry and proceed to sweep in the late game.

Too bad SDChomp gets OHKOed by Specs Lati@s, even through Haban Berry. With SR, LO Latios too.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Just wanna post what I'm getting out of the test so far:

Garchomp: still broken. Nothing stops Garchomp from doing what it did to become Uber, there is now just one pokemon that can act as a check, Latios (assuming no Sand Veil). Latios is probably the next pokemon to be banned anyways so w/e. All these people who think Platinum was going to change anything about Garchomp's dominance are being proven completely incorrect. CB Scizor Bullet Punch doesn't even 2hko Garchomp all of the time, and thats not even factoring SV in. The sub/SD set seems to be really popular, which is cool because I'm using spdef Skarm with Shed Shell on every suspect team I make. Scarfchomp is also getting popular again, with good reason. It's the best revenge killer in the game (again). So, in short....nothing's really changed except for Latios. Latias in OU might be a decent check...but Garchomp has always had checks

Nothing stops Garchomp from coming in and punching huge holes in your team like it used to. One priority move user and an almost-certainly-Uber pokemon that can't switch in aren't enough to stop Garchomp.

Latios: why is this thing still allowed on the ladder? Who in their right mind voted this monster OU?

Skymin: I originally thought this thing was OU but I'm starting to lean the other way now. Once the metagame clears up, its true power will shine, I feel. People are taking it out of its role as an annoyer and are just straight up attacking with it now...for some reason, people figured out how to use this thing and its scary. Skymin is weird because it annihiliates offensive teams with Scarf/LO sets, but defense can't touch the subseeder. Like Manaphy, its like 2 pokemon in 1.

Latias: The most OU of any of the suspects, I'm still not *too* sure. Compared to other suspects, it's definitely OU...but that doesnt really mean anything. It is questionable, but the dominance of the other suspects hasnt given anyone really enough time to make an opinion on it.

Manaphy: It's definitely a bit worse in this metagame due to the prevalence of Blissey and Lati@s, but it is still pretty capable of sweeping. I haven't had enough time personally to deal with this, but I've seen quite a few Rain Dance teams that were a huge bitch to face. More on this when people stop using Latios and Garchomp , both of which deal with manaphy. :(

IIRC, the Garchomp vote was about 2:1 in favor of banning it. However, Garchomp had a lot of bias against it long before the vote that I suspect made it look worse than it really is. That was also before Platinum, where Scizor is as good a check against Garchomp as it is for everything else.

Just wanted to clear up this misinformation....Garchomp had no more of a bias against it than any of the other suspects did.

Scizor being a mediocre check against Garchomp doesn't change anything. Even if Scizor could reliably 2hko Garchomp (it cant), if one move is really going to make Garchomp not Uber....then why are we keeping Rayquaza banned?

I'm still waiting for the Garchomp/Manaphy/Latias/Skymin metagame....I think thats the only one that has a chance of stabilizing, and thats the metagame I'm playing this test to see.

Scizor's CB Bullet Punch vs 0 HP/0 Defense Garchomp 591 Atk vs 226 Def & 357 HP (60 Base Power): 169 - 199 (47.34% - 55.74%). Woo, a move that has a 25.9% chance of not 2hkoing (assuming it even hits twice in a row). Thanks for bringing Scizor into this conversation, it just makes Garchomp look better.

 

[WJC3688]

WJC, pseudohazing obviously still has many uses, not the least of which is pushing excessive entry hazard damage onto the enemy team regardless of the pokémon you're facing. It scouts teams (and avoids the embarrassment of your Skarmory getting trapped by Magnezone second turn), it gets rid of dangerous pokémon until they become more manageable later, and so on.

I quite agree. My point was that I think it silly to say that Skymin gets points simply for making Skarm phaze it, because something bad might come in like Heatran or whatever, as this is true any time you use a phazing move against anything.

Leech Seed is a better excuse because it's atleast something which most Pokemon don't have, though I don't find Leech Seed by itself to be devastating or anything, either. A parting gift of a +1 Return from a Curselax vs our beloved max SpD Skarm does 21.56% on average, about 3.5% less than the damage caused by two turns of Leech Seed. Yeah, you have to switch out to get rid of Leech Seed, but in all likelihood you'd be switching out the turn after anyway, as (assuming that Whirlwind didn't bring out an unfavorable match-up to begin with) I doubt that the opponent would sit there with a non-threatening Pokemon and let you lay down more Spikes or whatever.

I would mention that Skymin can flinch Skarm with Air Slash after it's Seeded to get free Leech Seed damage and possibly kill it, but this depends highly on the situation. Skymin needs to already have a Substitute up as Skarm switches in. Whereas, if Skarm switches in on Substitute, it can phaze as Skymin uses Leech Seed, suffering only one turn of Leech Seed and giving Skymin no chance to flinch it. If it switches in on Leech Seed, Skymin can try to flinch it but runs the risk of being killed by Brave Bird, or if it uses Substitute it could simply be phazed. If it switches in on Seed Flare and gets its SpD cut, Skymin can still try to flinch it but is again taking the risk of Brave Bird. Etc.

More generally, stall relies largely on status and entry hazard damage to defeat its opponents. They don't get that damage if the opponent digs in for 10 turns with a SubSeeder, can't status a Substitute (and Skymin is immune to TSpikes), and it typically has less offensive options for beating the strategy. (Fewer priority attacks, faster pokémon, revenge kill options.) The only reason stall would have any success beating it is because stall teams are more likely to pack its most reliable counters.

Yeah, all a stall team needs to carry is SkarmBliss, not like any stall teams ever use that.

PP stalling seems very inefficient to me. I admit it never really occurred to me, but generally, how much Wish PP is left after that, anyway?

I dunno, I've never done it myself. I've had it done to me, however, and it sure ruined my Skymin. All I know is that I ran out of PP on my attacks, and then Skarm just came in and stalled me out of Sub PP with Roost + Brave Bird.

And then with Leech Seed you can't Roost it all off if something like Metagross switches in; you're guaranteed to be at 87.5% at best (Leftovers) by the time you WW it out.

Yes, Leech Seed does more than a random attack from Ttar or whatever as it's phazed out, but clearly it is not by a large margin and I would hardly consider it to be the sort of thing which makes the difference between Uber and OU.

If it were another Pokemon, Blissey would be able to attack (and beat it if it stayed in). (ie; Empoleon, Jolteon). It cannot do this to Shaymin because of Leech Seed recovering more health than Substitute. Basically, Shaymin suffers practically no disadvantages when it does this.

If Blissey switches into Jolteon twice it's probably going to be sitting around 50%, prompting it to heal, thus allowing whatever to switch in. Does SpecsJolt get the same bonus points in the Support Characteristic for this? Blissey might have to switch in twice for it to work with Jolteon, but on the other hand, you can't be exactly sure when Blissey will heal against a SubSeeding Skymin since it's only taking 6% per turn. Will it heal at 60%, or 46%?

 

[Mr.E]

Just wanted to clear up this misinformation....Garchomp had no more of a bias against it than any of the other suspects did.

Please, people were clamoring for it to be banned like they used to want Tyranitar banned, like they've always want Blissey banned, like they wanted Curselax banned in GSC. Then Smogon decided "hey let's vote on whether he should be banned or not" in the height of its infamy and, of course, the vote was overwhelming. Its vote was closer to that of Deoxys-E (81%) than it was to the rest of the Suspects (55-60%), bar Latias. To say nothing of where Garchomp really belongs, nobody can seriously consider Garchomp significantly MORE Uber than Latios. Since most of the hate has dissipated during its hiatus, I can only assume the second vote will be much closer.

As far as Garchomp and its supposed lack of counters, it usually loses most of its health just getting set up, either by trolling for Sand Veil misses with successive Substitutes or using a resist berry to barely survive something that would otherwise kill it. It then relies on its Speed to continue killing, where Scizor CAN kill it. When you consider Scizor is no longer a niche pokémon but the most-used in OU, it's huge. Don't forget Scizor is a Steel-type too, meaning it can actually survive one miss if Garchomp is locked into Outrage.

Garchomp actually has two more checks than it used to have, since Latias wasn't OU at the time either. And Sub/SD is dumb, since it pretty much forces Garchomp to go Dragon Claw over Outrage. DC is for weaklings and SD/Sub Garchomp gets beat by Bronzong/Skarmory almost as bad as Scarfchomp. At least the latter manages to be effective against offensive teams...

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Please, people were clamoring for it to be banned like they used to want Tyranitar banned, like they've always want Blissey banned, like they wanted Curselax banned in GSC. Then Smogon decided "hey let's vote on whether he should be banned or not" in the height of its infamy and, of course, the vote was overwhelming. Its vote was closer to that of Deoxys-E (81%) than it was to the rest of the Suspects (55-60%), bar Latias. To say nothing of where Garchomp really belongs, nobody can seriously consider Garchomp significantly MORE Uber than Latios. Since most of the hate has dissipated during its hiatus, I can only assume the second vote will be much closer.

Yeah Garchomp isn't as powerful as Latios is in stage 3, but that doesn't say much...Garchomp was the dominant force in the metagame when it was voted on, while Latios came into a metagame where Scizor and Tyranitar were on like 30% of teams. The votes being different made perfect sense.

As far as Garchomp and its supposed lack of counters, it usually loses most of its health just getting set up, either by trolling for Sand Veil misses with successive Substitutes or using a resist berry to barely survive something that would otherwise kill it. It then relies on its Speed to continue killing, where Scizor CAN kill it. When you consider Scizor is no longer a niche pokémon but the most-used in OU, it's huge. Don't forget Scizor is a Steel-type too, meaning it can actually survive one miss if Garchomp is locked into Outrage.

This isn't any different than the conditions when it was banned...it is still check-able but now there are just 2 more things that can check it. There have always been Steel-types that take advantage of Outrage, its most of the reason why Bronzong and Heatran gained popularity after the Swords Dance set became standard. Scizor being popular isn't stopping Garchomp from doing >100% to your team

Garchomp actually has two more checks than it used to have, since Latias wasn't OU at the time either. And Sub/SD is dumb, since it pretty much forces Garchomp to go Dragon Claw over Outrage. DC is for weaklings and SD/Sub Garchomp gets beat by Bronzong/Skarmory almost as bad as Scarfchomp. At least the latter manages to be effective against offensive teams...

Yeah Garchomp does have some flaws, but that hasn't stopped it from becoming a top 10 Uber after it was banned ;_;. Some people say Garchomp got better, some people say it got worse because of Latios...but the one thing we can agree on is that there isnt any real way to tell until Latios is gone =\

 

[Hipmonlee]

About out-stalling Shaymin.

If Blissey is leech seeded, then it is easy bait for any pursuiter. Particularly wish bliss.

CB Tyranitar will be constantly healed as Blissey is either forced to switch, in which case it will have at absolute most 49 hp if it switches in again (assuming sr). Or it can take the 36% damage from Pursuit + the 12.5% damage per turn from Leech seed which means it will be 2hkoed. But in any practical scenario Blissey will be dead. Not to mention the possibility of having a pokemon countered by bliss switching in and no longer being countered by bliss thanks to the leech seed damage/recovery.

If you are switching to PP waste shaymin, then every time you recover you give Shaymin a chance to start attacking you from behind a substitute. Whenever this happens you have to start considering luck. For example, every time Skarm roosts against Shaymin, there is an 18.5% chance it will die before being able to attack again. Honestly, that isnt a good counter. After all Shaymin is recovering itself with leechseed all this time, you arent actually getting any closer to killing it..

Yeah, leech seed shaymin is really, really hard to beat. By far the most uber of the pokemon remaining in my opinion.

Have a nice day.

 

[Darkmalice]

About out-stalling Shaymin.

If Blissey is leech seeded, then it is easy bait for any pursuiter. Particularly wish bliss.

CB Tyranitar will be constantly healed as Blissey is either forced to switch, in which case it will have at absolute most 49 hp if it switches in again (assuming sr). Or it can take the 36% damage from Pursuit + the 12.5% damage per turn from Leech seed which means it will be 2hkoed. But in any practical scenario Blissey will be dead. Not to mention the possibility of having a pokemon countered by bliss switching in and no longer being countered by bliss thanks to the leech seed damage/recovery.

If you are switching to PP waste shaymin, then every time you recover you give Shaymin a chance to start attacking you from behind a substitute. Whenever this happens you have to start considering luck. For example, every time Skarm roosts against Shaymin, there is an 18.5% chance it will die before being able to attack again. Honestly, that isnt a good counter. After all Shaymin is recovering itself with leechseed all this time, you arent actually getting any closer to killing it.

It's very annoying if you let Skymin get up Substitute or Leech seed unpunished. But more often than not, you would try to prevent Skymin from setting up one with litte threat. Like, for example, immediately send in Skarmory for a quick Whirlwind, swap in Scizor for Bullet Punch, or Heatran if you know it lacks Earth Power.

Skymin is somehow better than it was in the first test. Maybe it's because its speed is a lot more useful, and it's great at keeping Garchomp in check, I don't know. Though back in a time where I absolutely hated luck, I seem to have gotten over my hate (well partially. I got annoyed because I kept on battling Jirachi that haxed me with Ice Punch and Iron Head - that would explain why I was a bit annoyed in my first match with you Eo Ut Mortus). The Smogon characteristics state that for a Pokemon to be uber, it has to easily sweep a team, wall a team, or set up spport. I wouldn't call luck easily, so I wouldn't call it uber. And unlike other Pokemon, if Skymin fails to sweep/prepare support, it doesn't inflict major damage to the opponent - it's not like Specs Latios' DM which inflicts a big dent on almost any Pokemon.

On a different note, specially defensive Steel-types have become very important thanks to Skymin and Latios/as. Scizor, Skarmory and Bronzong seem to be obvious choices, but I feel Registeel makes a great choice. It boasts a far superior SDef to any of those, walling even Specs Latios with easy (save Trick) and it makes PP stalling Skymin very easy. Also takes hits better than Bronzong, especially the ever common Scizor's U-turn. Plus it doesn't get screwed over by HP Fire like Scizor and Skarmory.