Point of contention: 252/Jolly Machamp only deals 97-114% with Ice Punch to 0/0 Garchomp, meaning it will NOT OHKO all of the time, and it will certainly not OHKO YacheChomp. Meanwhile, Chomp's +2 Earthquake is a Guaranteed OHKO, meaning that YacheChomp can come in, SD on your switch-in, live your Ice Punch (or DynamicPunch, which will do the same damage), and always KO you back. Better hope you're packing more than one counter in that case.
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Point of contention: 252/Jolly Machamp only deals 97-114% with Ice Punch to 0/0 Garchomp, meaning it will NOT OHKO all of the time, and it will certainly not OHKO YacheChomp. Meanwhile, Chomp's +2 Earthquake is a Guaranteed OHKO, meaning that YacheChomp can come in, SD on your switch-in, live your Ice Punch (or DynamicPunch, which will do the same damage), and always KO you back. Better hope you're packing more than one counter in that case.
It's a silly argument to begin with but sure, I'll field some of these things since it's basically my sworn duty to stand up for Garchomp at this point. :/ Said Machamp's Ice Punch is a guaranteed OHKO with SR (or one layer of Spikes). Even if it's YacheChomp and Machamp has to use Dynamicpunch, Garchomp still loses half the time due to confusion. Overly specialized "counter" at any rate, pointless discussion.
Garchomp is rarely, if ever, used in a tank roll so its sturdiness only matters insofar as it can switch in easily and set up without being crippled. Lucario is certainly very good in that regard, being able to switch in with ease due to its great set of resists despite its below-average defenses. "Everyone's favorite" CB Pursuits are free set-up for Lucario, among other things. Garchomp has a tougher find finding an easy set-up opportunity due to its 4x Ice weakness. Most Electric pokémon already have a penchant for packing HP Ice to cover Grass/Ground pokémon who resist Electric and many defensive pokémon already pack an Ice attack for other Dragons, pokémon which Garchomp would otherwise have an easy set-up on. (Some of which Lucario still does, such as standard Blissey.) Garchomp typically has to "settle" for taking 30%+ residual damage to get in a Swords Dance. It also can't handle the Toxic Spikes common on stall teams, which Lucario ignores.
Indeed, Lucario is not as fast as Garchomp. But most pokémon that would also outspeed Garchomp, frail pokémon like Azelf, Lucario beats because they can't take a boosted Extremespeed. Lucario even resists Ice Shard, Extremespeed, and Bullet Punch. This makes it much tougher to revenge kill than Garchomp, who falls to most any pokémon that can get the first hit in once weakened. Flying pokémon make a generally good counter to Lucario... except Stealth Rock takes care of them rather well with its 25% damage. Depending on its filler slot, Ice Punch can also kill every Flyer except Gyarados and Stone Edge all of them but Gliscor. Of course, it's most common fourth move is Crunch, which just poops on would-be Ghost counters except the faster Gengar. (And Gengar is faster than Garchomp too...) Its only reliable "counters" are revenge killers that can outspeed him and don't get slaughtered by Extremespeed (e.g. ScarfTran) or ridiculously bulky pokémon (e.g. Suicune) that are willing to be crippled in exchange for the kill or T-Wave. I don't see how this is any different than facing Garchomp. Same shit, different checks. :/ Yet, I'm supposed to believe Garchomp is the only "broken" sweeper.
Garchomp is rarely, if ever, used in a tank roll so its sturdiness only matters insofar as it can switch in easily and set up without being crippled. Lucario is certainly very good in that regard, being able to switch in with ease due to its great set of resists despite its below-average defenses. "Everyone's favorite" CB Pursuits are free set-up for Lucario, among other things. Garchomp has a tougher find finding an easy set-up opportunity due to its 4x Ice weakness. Most Electric pokémon already have a penchant for packing HP Ice to cover Grass/Ground pokémon who resist Electric and many defensive pokémon already pack an Ice attack for other Dragons, pokémon which Garchomp would otherwise have an easy set-up on. (Some of which Lucario still does, such as standard Blissey.) Garchomp typically has to "settle" for taking 30%+ residual damage to get in a Swords Dance. It also can't handle the Toxic Spikes common on stall teams, which Lucario ignores.
Indeed, Lucario is not as fast as Garchomp. But most pokémon that would also outspeed Garchomp, frail pokémon like Azelf, Lucario beats because they can't take a boosted Extremespeed. Lucario even resists Ice Shard, Extremespeed, and Bullet Punch. This makes it much tougher to revenge kill than Garchomp, who falls to most any pokémon that can get the first hit in once weakened. Flying pokémon make a generally good counter to Lucario... except Stealth Rock takes care of them rather well with its 25% damage. Depending on its filler slot, Ice Punch can also kill every Flyer except Gyarados and Stone Edge all of them but Gliscor. Of course, it's most common fourth move is Crunch, which just poops on would-be Ghost counters except the faster Gengar. (And Gengar is faster than Garchomp too...) Its only reliable "counters" are revenge killers that can outspeed him and don't get slaughtered by Extremespeed (e.g. ScarfTran) or ridiculously bulky pokémon (e.g. Suicune) that are willing to be crippled in exchange for the kill or T-Wave. I don't see how this is any different than facing Garchomp. Same shit, different checks. :/ Yet, I'm supposed to believe Garchomp is the only "broken" sweeper.
Thanks to its 108/95 physical defence, Garchomp can set up as well on CB pursuit, especially considering that both TTar and Scizor - some common pursuit users - aren't going to stay in on Chomp anyway. Also, the funny thing is that after a defence drop from close combat, Lucario - which resists steel - takes up to 68% from a Scizor's CB bullet punch, while Garchomp only takes 47.77% - 56.15%, which is not even a guaranteed 2HKO.
The only three pokemons which may try to exploit Garchomp's 4X ice weakness are: Mamoswine, Weavile and lol Donphan (with the latter which is almost UU), thanks to ice shard (and Weavile being faster). Oh, without forgetting that none of them can actually switch into Chomp, and that if Chomp packs a yache berry, they'll be not even guaranteed to revenge kill it. Not to mention that when sandstorm is in play they only have an 80% chance of hitting with their SE attacks. Oh, and the only OU electric pokemon which can outspeed Chomp is Jolteon, which, again, can't switch into it and must beware of both yache and sand veil to kill Chomp with hidden power ice.
Lucario has several checks and some SURE revenge killers, and unlike Chomp it suffers from the moveslot syndrome. Garchomp doesn't need to worry about type coverage considering that the only two pokemons which resist its stab attacks are Skarmory and Bronzong, and both these pokemons are hit for SE damage by fire fang. Again thanks to its impressive defence - for a sweeper at least - Garchomp may switch into a SD Lucario, resist the +2 ES and KO with EQ.
Finally, when considering Garchomp tiering we must keep in mind that because of sand veil, even the best Garchomp counter - assuming that such a pokemon exists - or revenge killer, only has an 80% chance of hitting it when attacking with a 100% accurate move (with sandstorm in play), meaning that because of a miss you may lose your only check for it, and probably the match. Do we really want that? I say: NO!
this similar argument can be applied to cacturne. even if you find a counter for all of cacturne's sets (specs/band/leech seed/sub/sd/destiny bond/mixed/counter/grasswhistle/encore blah blah). you still have to deal with the 80% chance of killing it. do you really want cacturne around? if you say you don't want garchomp around because of this then you obviously don't want cacturne.
This is one of the problems with people for Garchomp: They take each the argument one step at a time. Sand Veil is not the only reason for him being (supposedly) uber, it is a mixture of that along with all of his other abilities (physical bulkiness (more than Swampert, wtf), base 102 speed, SD + 130 base attack).
An example of what makes Garchomp uber is what is probably going to make Crobat BL. Crobat doesn't fit any specific one of the BL characteristics (Offensive, Defensive, and Support), but when looking at the whole picture, he is (clearly) BL. Same goes with Garchomp. Although none of his individual traits make him uber, all of those traits combined make him uber.
Besides, Garchomp is a bigger threat than Cacturne.
Every one of Garchomp's stats except Special Attack, which it doesn't even use on its most dangerous sets, is higher than Cacturne's. While Cacturne takes a significant amount of damage from even resisted hits, Garchomp isn't even OHKOed by STAB Ice or Dragon moves, depending on what berry it carries. Grass/Dark are far from ideal offensive STABs; Dragon/Ground are resisted by only a pair of pokemon, both of which are weak to another move Garchomp can easily carry on its standard set.
There is no comparison; missing against Cacturne isn't even half as dangerous as missing against Garchomp.
There is no comparison; missing against Cacturne isn't even half as dangerous as missing against Garchomp.
This argument is completely ridicolous... don't even try to compare Garchomp and Cacturne because the only thing they share is their ability. Cacturne is NU for a reason, and as others have said, sand veil is only one of the reasons to keep Chomp where it is. Read my whole post please, I have mentioned more than an argument for Chomp to be uber...
Oh, and, by the way, just so you know, Scizor bullet punches do 87.23% - 102.48% to Cacturne, which is a guaranteed OHKO with SR - and a possible OHKO even without SR - not to mention that, as Syberia said, drak\grass is a mediocre attacking combo when compared to dragon\ground. Missing against Cacturne may, at worst, mean losing a pokemon; missing against Garchomp usually means losing the game.
Have a nice day.
You keep going on about Sand Veil. From what I can see, running Tyranitar literally gives away that you're running Garchomp. 63.89% of teams that run Tyranitar also use Garchomp. That's what, over a 3/5 chance that you using Tyranitar lets me know 1/3 of your team? That actually helps me, as I now know not to fire off random choiced fire or electric moves on your team.
Next, running Sand Veil just for Garchomp helps me much more then it does you. You running Leftovers on anything that takes damage from Sandstorm, like Blissey and Celebi? Cool, because I only have Bronzong on my team who uses Leftovers. So you're now restricted to using recovery moves like Softbolied and Recover to restore your health. Great team support there.
Speaking about team support, people will just say "Garchomp doesn't need team support, it can destroy stuff on it's own". So okay, how exactly is Garchomp gonna destroy stuff on it's own. What, a Swords Dance? Ok, so how is Garchomp going to get this Swords Dance? It's not like it can switch in on anything in the Top 10 pokemon safely, without taking damage. Maybe Heatran locked into Fire Blast, but you're fucked if you get burned. Maybe a CB Pursuit after I knock out your Latios? Um, yeah, I think I deserve to maybe lose a Pokemon, as I decided to take out Latios then use Bullet Punch to hurt the predictable Garchomp switch-in. That's the what the game is about, prediction and choices.
And seriously, who are you trying to kid that Garchomp comes in at 100%? Skarmory is quite common on Suspect, meaning that at the very least there will be one layer of Spikes, 12% knocked off Garchomp's health. Add the 6% from SR and you have Garchomp coming in at 82% alot of the time you will play. Bullet Punch now 2HKO's. But wait, I might miss! However, personally I would rather take 4/5 chance to hit Garchomp and possibly win the game, then bitch about the fact that I have 1/5 chance to miss.
Next, running Sand Veil just for Garchomp helps me much more then it does you. You running Leftovers on anything that takes damage from Sandstorm, like Blissey and Celebi? Cool, because I only have Bronzong on my team who uses Leftovers. So you're now restricted to using recovery moves like Softbolied and Recover to restore your health. Great team support there.
Speaking about team support, people will just say "Garchomp doesn't need team support, it can destroy stuff on it's own". So okay, how exactly is Garchomp gonna destroy stuff on it's own. What, a Swords Dance? Ok, so how is Garchomp going to get this Swords Dance? It's not like it can switch in on anything in the Top 10 pokemon safely, without taking damage. Maybe Heatran locked into Fire Blast, but you're fucked if you get burned. Maybe a CB Pursuit after I knock out your Latios? Um, yeah, I think I deserve to maybe lose a Pokemon, as I decided to take out Latios then use Bullet Punch to hurt the predictable Garchomp switch-in. That's the what the game is about, prediction and choices.
And seriously, who are you trying to kid that Garchomp comes in at 100%? Skarmory is quite common on Suspect, meaning that at the very least there will be one layer of Spikes, 12% knocked off Garchomp's health. Add the 6% from SR and you have Garchomp coming in at 82% alot of the time you will play. Bullet Punch now 2HKO's. But wait, I might miss! However, personally I would rather take 4/5 chance to hit Garchomp and possibly win the game, then bitch about the fact that I have 1/5 chance to miss.
I won't argue that Garchomp probably won't get set up here itself, as the Pursuit user likely wants to switch out anyway. They do, however, have the option of staying in to do some respectable damage to Garchomp, forcing Garchomp to guess next turn whether to risk using their super-effective move on a resistant/immune switch-in. That's no option against Lucario, who takes an absolute pittance from Pursuit.
This is about Garchomp switching in and setting up, not the other way around. Garchomp cannot switch in and set up against Blissey or Cresselia due to the omnipresent Ice Beam; Lucario can if they aren't packing T-Wave. (Ice Beam and Toxic are both slightly more popular than Flamethrower and T-Wave, respectively, on Blissey. Ice Beam is almost twice as common as T-Wave on Cresselia, who often opts for Reflect in its fourth slot.) Trying to switch in and set up in the face of a Jolteon is a risky maneuver when they could just stay in and 2HKO with HP Ice and Substitute is fairly common on most any Electric specifically to remove the risk of TBolting straight into a Ground immunity. How I typically see Garchomp set up is that it'll switch into a powerful resisted hit (e.g. Heatran Overheat) or a defensive pokemon that doesn't do a lot of damage (e.g. Jirachi's Iron Head). Sometimes it'll try to Sub up against something it thinks will switch and just loses health as the opponent attacks and breaks the Sub. Lucario is more likely to get in unscathed, or at least with less residual damage, due to its great set of resistances.
The mere fact Garchomp so frequently relies on resistance berries is also a handicap in itself. If it's using Yache Berry (or Haban), which Garchomp so often does, it's not using Leftovers to mitigate residual damage or a damage-increasing item (LO and such) to boost its power.
Feel free to name some of them. Actually I'll name them for you: ScarfTran... Scarf Flygon? That's about it as far as common checks go, not including rarities such as 308 Speed Gliscor, the odd Mach Punch or Vacuum Wave user, or mid-range Scarf users like Metagross.
For all intents and purposes, we can assume Lucario has Crunch in its fourth move slot. Ice Punch or Stone Edge do help mitigate what Flyers can do to Lucario but Stealth Rock is so potent against Flying switch-ins that they are rarely healthy enough to actually stand up to a set-up Lucario, sans Gliscor. Though Garchomp welcomes SR as much as any sweeper, it doesn't do super-effective damage against all of its best "counters." (Including Gliscor again, who even takes advantage of Sand Veil itself.) :/ The alternate move is merely a choice that some Lucario users may want to employ and the threat of their usage may even scare off a healthy Gliscor or Gyarados until it's too late.
Sand Veil is considerable but I will repeat what I have said previously. The first thing to note is that Sand Stream is only active in about 50% of battles. It's not even being used half the time! Statistically speaking, that's similar to Garchomp only having 10% evasion under Sand Veil. That doesn't sound nearly as bad as 20%, does it? Secondly, I would note that having to build around Sand Stream at all is considerable concession for a player to make. That is to say, a person "pays" for their ability to abuse Sand Veil with decreased team-building options at the onset. (See: What Nubchos said above.) It's also worth mentioning that Sand Veil doesn't work on all of Garchomp's potential checks, the most notable being Toxic Spikes. You can't dodge those, sorry mang.
I love Setrack and his trollish humor but this is not quite true. The other Dragons, who actually carry Specs fairly often (not Kingdra shut up), all OHKO Garchomp right through a Haban Berry using Draco Meteor, though the Latis are the only Dragons to outspeed it anyway. (Even Specs Dragon Pulse or non-Specs Meteor deal ~75-85%.) An opposing Garchomp with CB still does about 86% minimum and has a chance to OHKO from full health. Weavile's CB Ice Punch or Blizzard users you might see on a Hail team OHKO through Yache Berry and pretty much every Ice user in existance will 2HKO anyway. (i.e. Garchomp won't set up in front of bulky users like Swampert just because it has a Yache Berry.) That's not to say the resist berries don't have their uses but they sure don't give Garchomp free reign to do what it pleases.
Actually, Haban Berry is junk and people should stop using it because Garchomp usually gets killed through it anyway. Yache Berry is alright, it gives Garchomp some room for residual damage in the face of defensive Ice users and it stops Ice Shard from flat-out beating it.
Scarf Rotom-H is another great check only fearing Specs Shadow Ball and CB Crunch for Lucario and it slaughters it back with Overheat. Another interesting counter is ScarfMachamp, which survives everything, even +2 Adamant Life Orbed Extremespeed even with SR (and I'm sure most of people will use Close Combat to finish Machamp), Ironically ScarfLuke also revenge kills SDLuke. And none of those examples are overspecialised and all of them have more uses then just revenge killing Lucario and most of them may switch on it safely with little prediction. It's not a problem to find more Scarfers, which can handle +2 Extremespeed and you still can find some non-scarf pokemon fast enough to handle +2 ES from Luke.
In this metagame pretty bad, however Nidoqueen is another almost perfect counter. Even +2 Adamant Life Orb Ice Punch has 66% to OHKO Nidoqueen back, which is good, but not that great. And right now with Gliscors running enough speed to outspeed Luke anyway, so Ice Punch is just a bad choice.
But I think comparing Luke to Garchomp doesn't make sense - Lucario has 3 really popular weaknesses, which you can use against it and much worse defenses to take them. Only advantage it has is good priority, which can be ignored with correctly chosen check or counter. And Garchomp has 2 weaknesses which one can be ignored thanks to Yache and his bulkiness, which helps him to take EVERY single ice attack with exceptions of CB Weavile and some random Blizzard users (good luck with using Blizzard without Hail). I don't even need to mention Sand Veil. And if you want to exploit dragon weakness, I need to congratulate balls for doing it in 1 turn seeing Garchomp. Facts are simple - if you even want to exploit dragon weakness, you may risk OHKo from Scarf or BandChomp (as only few pokemon use dragon attacks without STAB and few of those still risk being raped by Chomp) at 1 turn seeing or just loose one pokemon and try to revenge kill it with another one. Anyway it means loosing one pokemon no matter what, which especially late game may be really bad. Of course you may predict right from the bat, but even in situation like this you may loose it thanks to Sand Veil. When physically offensive pokemon overpowers physically defensive behemots like Hippowdon and Cresselia even without boosting item and some people in the past started to run ScarfSuicune or ScarfCressy just to beat YacheChomp, then I think something was wrong. With all those arguments I still can't understand how people may say that Garchomp isn't uber. And I don't think that on suspect it changed much (I didn't play on Suspect that much), as you need godlike prediction anyway to play it right and not loose at least 1 pokemon against YacheChomp or another versions. And of course there's still an option to use ChainChomp to make sure some physicall walls won't stop you. Anyway it ends the same - you need godlike prediction or you just loose at least one pokemon no matter what. And in the past almost every pokemon on teams had ice attacks (for example almost every Zapdos ran HP Ice, etc.) and for some strange reason it always found a place to Swords Dance at least once. So I think argument about Chomp having hard time to find place to use Swords Dance isn't right. I think that every at least mediocore player will find that one turn to Swords Dance up as Chomp can always find pokemon, which he scares anyway no matter the situation (TTar, Scizor, etc.). I didn't said nothing new, I know that. But I guess it's really important to say those things more then once, as OU-Chomp was really almost unstoppable pokemon and not that difficult to use. And that ridiculous in some moments overspecialisation just to counter Garchomp in some moments for me was sick. Maybe it's just my opinion, but Chomp landing in Ubers proved that I wasn't alone in that thinking. And with some new additions on some pokemon it didn't change much in my opinion, as even Bullet Punch Scizor can't stop it and Lati Twins or Flygon still risk being slaughtered before doing anything. Of course suspect test for is important just too see if Chomp may come back to OU. For me nothing changed. And another suspects don't overwhelm me like Chomp as all of them has at least few reliable checks or counters unlike Chomp. Even someone found in the past good EVs spread for Blissey, which could handle even one special defence drop from Shaymin-S Seed Flare. I need to check how it looked like.
Adamant CBTar's Pursuit vs 4/0 Garchomp: 604 Atk vs 226 Def & 358 HP (40 Base Power): 115 - 136 (32.12% - 37.99%)
A 3hko. Garchomp gets a Swords Dance and then a free 2hko of something on your team. So yeah, they do have the option of staying in, but it will be the exact same result for them.
Also, the above poster is correct. You can't compare Garchomp and Lucario, they are two different kinds of sweepers. Since Lucario has easily exploitable weaknesses and piss-poor defenses, you basically *have to* come in on something weak that it 4x resists like Pursuit in order to set up. Lucario has to be really picky when it comes in, since if your opponent has a Salamence or Gyarados waiting in the wings, you just spoiled your big surprise. Also, Lucario is forced to lower its already abysmal defenses if it wants to sweep, and with Life Orb chipping away at its HP, this is obviously tough to compare to Garchomp, who tanks hits even with no defensive investment to get its sweep in.
Lucario and Garchomp are used in completely different manners, you can't really compare them because of how much differently they are played.
Garchomp doesn't rely on resistance berries, it takes advantage of them. Garchomp has the pure offensive stats to not need to use a Life Orb, so defensive items actually help Garchomp more than something like a Life Orb would by giving it the stability to be a long-term threat.
Considering that Garchomp 2hkos literally every pokemon in the game with or without an attack boosting item, I would not call using a berry to eliminate one of its few weaknesses a "handicap". Garchomp, unlike Lucario since you seem to love that comparison, doesn't need a Life Orb to get critical OHKOs and 2HKOs. Unlike Salamence, Garchomp doesn't need a Life Orb to boost its damage because it has Swords Dance. Garchomp doesn't lose anything by using a resistance berry, but it gains a lot.
Using a resistance berry to bolster its defenses (which are already better than Swampert, mind you) is far from a "handicap". Garchomp doesn't need a Life Orb, it is complete overkill and it just sacrifices its amazing defenses with no real gain.
Speaking of defensive items, if someone was really ballsy they would use Leftovers SD Chomp over a resistance berry and turn CBScizor's Bullet Punch into a 3HKO with 0 defensive investment. That's pretty damn impressive.
I don't know why you keep talking about Lucario, but I'll play along. Lucario will always have a 100% counter in OU. Every moveset is walled by something really common.
First of all, Gengar, anything with a Choice Scarf, Salamence, Gyarados, Skymin (not ohkod by +2 extremespeed), Latias (also not ohkod), and Rotom-A (with Speed) are all amazing checks and counters to any Lucario. If it lacks Crunch, then Rotom-A, Celebi, Gyarados and Cresselia wall it. If it lacks Ice Punch, Zapdos, Gliscor, Gyarados all wall it. But this is all irrelevant to the issue at hand anyways.
Yeah, but it IS being used half the time...that's the whole problem.
Actually it still sounds pretty bad.
I don't see how using Tyranitar, who has been top 10 OU for literally all of DP, is a handicap at all. TTar is a great lure for Garchomp's checks. I personally used a fast Expert Belt TTar to trick people into switching their Steel-types into Crunches, only to be met with a Fire Blast for massive damage. This is especially hilarious since Scizor always U-turns out instead of locking itself into BP. TTar is supporting Garchomp by luring its counters out (good luck switching into Outrage if nothing you have left resists it). They work very well together.
Since you keep talking about how "omg Latis Starmie Azelf Jolteon are faster than Garchomp so they can beat it", why is using Tyranitar, as complete a counter as you can get to them, a handicap? Your definition is pretty messed up if using TTar is a handicap.
Toxic Spikes do slow Garchomp's sweep down, but a poisoned Garchomp is still a Garchomp, a top 10 uber. Maybe if there were Burn Spikes....
Although you are right about Latios still ohkoing through Haban Berry, you ignore the fact that Haban removes Garchomp's most threatening revenge killer: Garchomp. Chomp's unboosted Outrage can't ohko other Garchomp through Haban Berry. I have won quite a few matches because of this.
I won't quote your whole post for the simple fact that Garganator and Jrrrr (I won't call you Gay Dolphin!) already completely demolished most of your arguments. I can only say that I completely agree with both of them.
Ok, you're asking for Lucario's revenge killers assuming crunch as its 4th move, let's go (also note that scarf-Flygon is not a counter because it can be ohko'd by a +2 ES): scarf-Heatran, Gengar, Gliscor (and jolly gliscor is not as rare as you may think, actually - look at the server stats, you'll note that almost 35% of Gliscor run a jolly nature), fire punch Jirachi, scarf-Rotom, defensive Zapdos (it takes around 50% from ES - so even with SR it's going to survive - and note that also a timid zapdos with max HP and enough speed to outspeed Luke always survives a +2 ES even with SR), scarf-Magnezone (which can also trap it thanks to magnet pull and deal around 80% with thunderbolt), Salamence (if at full health), Gyarados (defensive variant can easily switch into Luke), defensive Latias (they always survive ES and can outspeed and ohko with hidden power fire), scarf-Tyranitar, and as I've mentioned some posts ago even CB-Scizor can do up to 68% after a defence drop from close combat with bullet punch, without forgetting that Hippowdon can take even a +2 close combat and ohko back with EQ.
I believe I've mentioned enough pokemons to deal with Lucario - omiting mach punch\vacuum wave users as you asked - but, honestly, I don't think such a huge list of counters\revenge killers can be made for Garchomp.
Now I'd be curious to know what pokemons can actually counter Garchomp or revenge kill it assuming it holds a yache berry...
Seriously guys, if you look at my previous votes in the suspects test, then you'll see that I'm very open minded when we test something which has chances to be OU, but the fact that I agree with Jrrr on Garchomp's tiering probably means something...
Have a nice day.
Ok, you're asking for Lucario's revenge killers assuming crunch as its 4th move, let's go (also note that scarf-Flygon is not a counter because it can be ohko'd by a +2 ES): scarf-Heatran, Gengar, Gliscor (and jolly gliscor is not as rare as you may think, actually - look at the server stats, you'll note that almost 35% of Gliscor run a jolly nature), fire punch Jirachi, scarf-Rotom, defensive Zapdos (it takes around 50% from ES - so even with SR it's going to survive - and note that also a timid zapdos with max HP and enough speed to outspeed Luke always survives a +2 ES even with SR), scarf-Magnezone (which can also trap it thanks to magnet pull and deal around 80% with thunderbolt), Salamence (if at full health), Gyarados (defensive variant can easily switch into Luke), defensive Latias (they always survive ES and can outspeed and ohko with hidden power fire), scarf-Tyranitar, and as I've mentioned some posts ago even CB-Scizor can do up to 68% after a defence drop from close combat with bullet punch, without forgetting that Hippowdon can take even a +2 close combat and ohko back with EQ.
I believe I've mentioned enough pokemons to deal with Lucario - omiting mach punch\vacuum wave users as you asked - but, honestly, I don't think such a huge list of counters\revenge killers can be made for Garchomp.
No, Gliscor can't counter Garchomp sadly. Jolly variants are OHKO'd by a +2 outrage and 2hko'd by dragon claw while impish variants are always 2hko'd by both dragon claw and outrage. And what can they do in return? ice fang won't ohko Chomp even without the yache berry...
Now I'd be curious to know what pokemons can actually counter Garchomp or revenge kill it assuming it holds a yache berry...
Seriously guys, if you look at my previous votes in the suspects test, then you'll see that I'm very open minded when we test something which has chances to be OU, but the fact that I agree with Jrrr on Garchomp's tiering probably means something...
Have a nice day.
I might as well have my own say on this.
Garchomp is most certainly a powerful force, but in today's Platinum metagame, it isn't as broken as it was in DP.
Once you know Garchomp's moveset, countering it will be a much less horrid affair. Scarfed Shaymin-S isn't an uncommon sight in Suspect, and can outspeed ScarfChomp and OHKO with Hidden Power Ice. Shaymin-S may become Uber, but I don't think that will happen. A small movepool, 4x weakness to Ice and the inability to beat stall threaten Shaymin-S' chances of being banished to Ubers. But what if Garchomp is a YacheChomp? That's where Lati@s comes into play. Lati@s can outspeed Garchomp with a speed boosting nature and can OHKO with Draco Meteor. HabenChomp? We come straight back to the Shaymin-S argument again. Also, let's not forget that Scizor can 2HKO Garchomp with Bullet Punch. That means that if Garchomp has been weakened beforehand, Scizor can wipe it out.
Garchomp is most certainly a powerful force, but in today's Platinum metagame, it isn't as broken as it was in DP.
Once you know Garchomp's moveset, countering it will be a much less horrid affair. Scarfed Shaymin-S isn't an uncommon sight in Suspect, and can outspeed ScarfChomp and OHKO with Hidden Power Ice. Shaymin-S may become Uber, but I don't think that will happen. A small movepool, 4x weakness to Ice and the inability to beat stall threaten Shaymin-S' chances of being banished to Ubers. But what if Garchomp is a YacheChomp? That's where Lati@s comes into play. Lati@s can outspeed Garchomp with a speed boosting nature and can OHKO with Draco Meteor. HabenChomp? We come straight back to the Shaymin-S argument again. Also, let's not forget that Scizor can 2HKO Garchomp with Bullet Punch. That means that if Garchomp has been weakened beforehand, Scizor can wipe it out.
I'm not trying to attack you but I'm just going to use your post as an example because i have a question:
What happens in this situation: Skymin and Latios are voted Uber but Garchomp is not? Since you basically just said "I don't think Garchomp is uber because Latios and Skymin check it", doesnt that mean that if Skymin and Latios are voted uber..then Garchomp is now Uber too? If the only two things keeping Garchomp in OU are taken out, then wouldn't that mean there is nothing left keeping Garchomp OU?
Basically, my question is: are we supposed to vote based on the suspect metagame, with 5 potential Ubers in it...or are we supposed to vote based on how they fare in OU? Maybe I missed it in this thread but a lot of people seem to be posting on something's tier status based on other suspects (like the post I quoted does), is that how we are actually supposed to be thinking?
(if i was actually attacking the post I quoted, I would just point out that Scizor's Bullet Punch is actually a guaranteed 2HKO on Rayquaza, unlike with Garchomp. "That means that if Rayquaza has been weakened beforehand, Scizor can wipe it out." and then "Free Rayquaza")
What happens in this situation: Skymin and Latios are voted Uber but Garchomp is not? Since you basically just said "I don't think Garchomp is uber because Latios and Skymin check it", doesnt that mean that if Skymin and Latios are voted uber..then Garchomp is now Uber too? If the only two things keeping Garchomp in OU are taken out, then wouldn't that mean there is nothing left keeping Garchomp OU?
Basically, my question is: are we supposed to vote based on the suspect metagame, with 5 potential Ubers in it...or are we supposed to vote based on how they fare in OU? Maybe I missed it in this thread but a lot of people seem to be posting on something's tier status based on other suspects (like the post I quoted does), is that how we are actually supposed to be thinking?
(if i was actually attacking the post I quoted, I would just point out that Scizor's Bullet Punch is actually a guaranteed 2HKO on Rayquaza, unlike with Garchomp. "That means that if Rayquaza has been weakened beforehand, Scizor can wipe it out." and then "Free Rayquaza")
Scarfed Skymin is very much not a good answer to Scarfed Garchomp. If you Switch Skymin into Garchomp with the assumption that he is choiced, that means that you're switching in on either Earthquake, which means he will switch out before you can hit him, or a STAB Dragon or Super Effective Move (Dragon Claw, Outrage, Stone Edge, Fire Fang), any of which will tear Skymin a new one. Plus there is always the chance that you mispredict him as a Choice User instead of YacheSD Chomp and give him a SD on the switch-in and then fail to KO with HP Ice, allowing him to potentially sweep through the rest of your team.
Lati@s, again, can work as a check to the SD set assuming you KNOW it is the SD set and that he will SD on your switch-in. If he is instead a Choice set, your Lati could run straight in to a Dragon move and die. Even once you have seen SD, ChainChomp can spring a Draco Meteor on your switch-in, again punishing you heavily for your attempted "check". Not to mention that you are forced into using Draco Meteor in order to bust through a potential Haban Berry, meaning that a wise opponent can see this coming and take advantage of this fact my letting a Steel or Tyranitar come in and set up. And even if he doesn't switch out, with Sand Veil Draco Meteor has only a 72% accuracy.
Vote how you see the suspects in this metagame, not how you think suspects would do without other suspects keeping them in check. IIRC, unless all the suspects are voted OU, or all the suspects are voted Uber, there will be another test with the remaining suspects that were not voted Uber. Then you can evaluate how the suspects are without other suspect checks instead of trying to assume so.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong though.
Keep in mind I said once you know the set. You don't just go randomly switching in a Pokemon that is an offensive threat to Garchomp. What I meant was to switch in a bulky Pokemon that can take Garchomp's punishment to find out what it does. Bronzong is a good Pokemon for this. It resists Outrage, Dragon Claw, Earthquake and Stone Edge and won't take too much damage from Fire Fang. As for ChainChomp, I don't think it is that big of a threat to Lati@s. Keep in mind that Latias has got 130 Base Special Defense while Garchomp only has 80 base Special Attack.
Finally, it's cool Gay Dolphin. I'm not pissed at your statement.
I didn't even read Garganator's post beyond the mention of Scarfchamp as a Lucario counter, an idea so stupid I already dismissed it as an overspecialized Garchomp counter when I'm the one trying to argue in Garchomp's favor. Darkerkrai was the one who originally mentioned Lucario, I'm just going with the flow.
At any rate, RE: "Garchomp doesn't need an offensive item." Life Orb would actually be quite helpful for it, turning those 75%+ Outrages on many bulky pokémon into an OHKO. You can't tell me there's "no real gain," for example, in taking 10% recoil to OHKO Suicune instead of having it survive and eating 40% from a Yache-weakened Ice Beam. (Maybe even Muscle Band if you don't want the recoil? Even 10% is enough for the likes of Swampert.) Of course, this will make Garchomp more susceptible to fast revenge kills. In the end, it's a choice even Garchomp may want to make.
Yes, Swords Dance gives Garchomp enough power that it can better afford to dump the Life Orb, compared to his "dancing" buddies or the weaker Lucario, but why is its Speed continually dismissed? Maybe Garchomp doesn't need Life Orb to OHKO a Zapdos. It also can't avoid retaliation from an Infernape or Starmie, who might instead get plastered by Lucario's Extremespeed or Salamence with a DD under its belt.
"Anything with a Choice Scarf," really? Sounds like you're describing Garchomp, not Lucario. I'm pretty sure most Scarf users get raped by Extremespeed. Trickscarf Azelf? nothxgtfo. You're looking for the resistant (or really bulky) ones, like Jirachi or Heatran.
Lucario, indeed, has plenty of checks. In fact, it has two very good ones in Gyarados and Salamence, Fighting resistors with Intimidate. (Assuming Crunch.) Most other Flyers work as well, such as Zapdos. You mentioned all these of these yourself. The problem is that Stealth Rock rapes all of these would-be counters. :/ Except Gliscor, this makes their application quite limited. Gengar works alright too, as it's faster and ignores ES, though it does rely on shaky Focus Blast accuracy (less than Sand Veil evading Ice attacks!) if Lucario isn't weak enough for a resisted Shadow Ball kill. Funny, Gliscor and Gengar do a number on Garchomp too...
Yes, Haunter, Gliscor works alright against Garchomp. The fact it doesn't OHKO doesn't mean much, since few things actually do in the first place and Garchomp is virtually assured of taking some residual damage to set up... Anyway, its own Sand Veil is highly welcome on something Garchomp can't OHKO and it deals pretty decent damage in return. It works better on Choice than the SD sets but those still make up about half the Garchomp population. :[
Any decent player knows you can't just throw the top six used pokémon into a team and have it come out on top, mentioning its usage status means absolutely nothing. Yeah, Tyranitar's a good pokémon. Great, we're not crippling ourselves to accomodate Garchomp's Sand Veil! That doesn't mean there's absolutely no downside to pigeonholing yourself into using it. You're basically giving your opponent extra information to use against you, before they even actually see what you have. Plus, some people just don't want to build around Sand Stream in the first place. :/ A team utilizing Sand Stream will be built differently than a team without it, who may otherwise only see it present every third or fourth battle due to their opponent using it.
If you want your Garchomp to kill other Garchomp, use a Scarf. :P And Tyranitar doesn't counter Jolteon.
At any rate, RE: "Garchomp doesn't need an offensive item." Life Orb would actually be quite helpful for it, turning those 75%+ Outrages on many bulky pokémon into an OHKO. You can't tell me there's "no real gain," for example, in taking 10% recoil to OHKO Suicune instead of having it survive and eating 40% from a Yache-weakened Ice Beam. (Maybe even Muscle Band if you don't want the recoil? Even 10% is enough for the likes of Swampert.) Of course, this will make Garchomp more susceptible to fast revenge kills. In the end, it's a choice even Garchomp may want to make.
Yes, Swords Dance gives Garchomp enough power that it can better afford to dump the Life Orb, compared to his "dancing" buddies or the weaker Lucario, but why is its Speed continually dismissed? Maybe Garchomp doesn't need Life Orb to OHKO a Zapdos. It also can't avoid retaliation from an Infernape or Starmie, who might instead get plastered by Lucario's Extremespeed or Salamence with a DD under its belt.
"Anything with a Choice Scarf," really? Sounds like you're describing Garchomp, not Lucario. I'm pretty sure most Scarf users get raped by Extremespeed. Trickscarf Azelf? nothxgtfo. You're looking for the resistant (or really bulky) ones, like Jirachi or Heatran.
Lucario, indeed, has plenty of checks. In fact, it has two very good ones in Gyarados and Salamence, Fighting resistors with Intimidate. (Assuming Crunch.) Most other Flyers work as well, such as Zapdos. You mentioned all these of these yourself. The problem is that Stealth Rock rapes all of these would-be counters. :/ Except Gliscor, this makes their application quite limited. Gengar works alright too, as it's faster and ignores ES, though it does rely on shaky Focus Blast accuracy (less than Sand Veil evading Ice attacks!) if Lucario isn't weak enough for a resisted Shadow Ball kill. Funny, Gliscor and Gengar do a number on Garchomp too...
Yes, Haunter, Gliscor works alright against Garchomp. The fact it doesn't OHKO doesn't mean much, since few things actually do in the first place and Garchomp is virtually assured of taking some residual damage to set up... Anyway, its own Sand Veil is highly welcome on something Garchomp can't OHKO and it deals pretty decent damage in return. It works better on Choice than the SD sets but those still make up about half the Garchomp population. :[
Any decent player knows you can't just throw the top six used pokémon into a team and have it come out on top, mentioning its usage status means absolutely nothing. Yeah, Tyranitar's a good pokémon. Great, we're not crippling ourselves to accomodate Garchomp's Sand Veil! That doesn't mean there's absolutely no downside to pigeonholing yourself into using it. You're basically giving your opponent extra information to use against you, before they even actually see what you have. Plus, some people just don't want to build around Sand Stream in the first place. :/ A team utilizing Sand Stream will be built differently than a team without it, who may otherwise only see it present every third or fourth battle due to their opponent using it.
If you want your Garchomp to kill other Garchomp, use a Scarf. :P And Tyranitar doesn't counter Jolteon.
I felt that last post was long enough, so sue me for double posting. You guys interrupted me with too many new posts in the past hour or so I was making the last one.
"Know the set?" This is Garchomp we're talking about, it's always running the same damn moves every physical dragon runs, Outrage/EQ/Fire. (Okay, Kingdra beats me again. Shut up.) The only question is whether it's running CB/Scarf. Those don't really change your initial reaction, though, but how you respond on the turn after.
Honestly, I'm not even sure Latios is uber, but Latias mostly stands in for it admirably in the current OU environment. I thought we were doing successive votes to remove Suspects, though. If Skymin and Latios get voted to Uber before Garchomp, more people might be swayed to vote it Uber the next time around, as they re-experience it with those extra two revenge-killers gone. Basically, what Philipnumbers said.
"Know the set?" This is Garchomp we're talking about, it's always running the same damn moves every physical dragon runs, Outrage/EQ/Fire. (Okay, Kingdra beats me again. Shut up.) The only question is whether it's running CB/Scarf. Those don't really change your initial reaction, though, but how you respond on the turn after.
Honestly, I'm not even sure Latios is uber, but Latias mostly stands in for it admirably in the current OU environment. I thought we were doing successive votes to remove Suspects, though. If Skymin and Latios get voted to Uber before Garchomp, more people might be swayed to vote it Uber the next time around, as they re-experience it with those extra two revenge-killers gone. Basically, what Philipnumbers said.
Some comments:
SD Fire Fang from 252/Jolly YacheChomp does a minimum of 68% to 252/0 Bronzong. Most SDChomps on the Suspect ladder run Fang over Blast due to Skarmory's special defensive tendancies. Bronzong is one of the best Pokemon to "take Garchomp's punishment" and figure out what it does. The only one who might be able to do this better is Cresselia, but she's increasingly uncommon. And especially as Choice Items and Yache/Haban Berry do not show messages, it is very difficult to figure out what set Garchomp is running, even if you do switch in safely the first time. Heck, if I were running SDChomp, I'd probably throw out Earthquake/Dragon Claw/Fire Fang the first few times I was in and switch out afterwards to give the impression I was scarfed and scout the opponent's counters.
252/Timid Garchomp's LO Draco Meteor does a minimum of 95% to 252/0 Latias, and always OHKOs standard Latios. So Chainchomp still poses a significant threat to Lati@s.
Yeah, you must know the set. However what you do when you don't know it ? When Garchomp switches on battlefield first time ? If you're not ballsy, you just switch normal physical wall (Suicune, Hippo, etc.) and it's still 2OHKOed no matter situation with little help of Swords Dance and they can't beat it back. He doesn't even need boosting item for it. Ok, now you know what set it runs, hurray ! However you lost your physical wall and something else may wreck havoc like DDTar. Heck, Garchomp is that powerfull that can be used in every moment of battle as a wall-breaker in early game or just for sweeping in late-game with one set, for which everyone are prepared and you still must loose at least one pokemon for it if you don't have godlike prediction. It's really ridiculous for me. And Garchomp doesn't suffer from moveslots problems like Lucario.
Sorry, my bad. I meant check when I wrote about ScarfMachamp. But as a check it still works. If even opponent uses ES against that Machamp it still survives and beats it back without any problems. So I think it's solid option if you want to check Lucario.
Garchomp would be much easier to beat with at least 100 speed. But his strange speed stats makes a list of pokemon outspeeding it quite short. Heck, that wouldn't be problem, you still may run them. But Garchomp survives any hit with berry (Weavile and Latios are small exceptions and none of them will switch at first round) and beats them anyway. Or their attacks just miss and you may say GG, especially late game. Harsh, but true. 72% accuracy on things like Draco Meteor only 2% better then shaky Focus Blast for me is scary. And about that Zapdos example - of course that's true that it needs Life Orb to OHKO it. But what this Zapdos can do, when he can't OHKO it anyway, fainting not in one hit, but two ? Ok, it took a bit of HP Points, but Garchomp still rampages and has good enough speed to continue that.
There's still one more option - CB Tauros. CB Outrage will OHKO (but you're open for any revenge kills), but still it may have problem with Haban Berry or that stupid miss. But seeing examples like this or ScarfCresselia makes me think - isn't overspecialisation here goes a bit too far ? As a think only Intimidiate Tauros (watch out on CBChomp), ScarfCressy and ScarfSuicune may really safely switch at first turn seeing Garchomp. It makes... 3 quite safe checks, which don't risk being killed if they mispredict. Against at least 10-12 for Lucario.
But those "safe" scarfers still exists and I can easily find 5-6 of them. And Lucario is slower then Chomp, so you don't even need Scarf to find some safe check for Lucario. 102 speed (that unique 102 speed tier is another problem here) against 90 makes a really big difference. If someone want to use Azelf to check Lucario, then that someone must be, sorry for saying that, dumb. Bringin examples like Azelf, which is frail, doesn't prove a thing. You say it like all Choice Scarf users MUST be frail. And we all know it's not true.
Gengar may run HP Fire. True, it won't OHKO, but still deal solid damage, if Lucario is at least a bit weaken. And I would prefer to run Rotom-H, as it's fast enough to effectively use Scarf and it has move, which easily OHKOes Lucario back with solid accuracy. I don't want to bring all those examples, as they were mentioned earlier. And that lower Lucario speed really matters here - Zapdos may run enough speed to outspeed Lucario and easily handle Extremespeed. Same goes to Salamence. But both of them MUST have Scarf to touch Garchomp before it hits them back. In Lucario case they don't. I think that's good enough reason to say, that Lucario and Garchomp are completely different sweepers.
You can't be serious... Defensive Gliscor has to weak attack to seriously hurt Garchomp as his strongest attack against it, Ice Fang, is still to weak, especially with Yache Berry. Heck, Gliscor can't even phaze Garchomp back like Hippo (and still, negative priority makes phazing poor strategy against Chomp). Of course you may run more offensive Gliscor. But now we have another problems. Garchomp is... faster. And now without bulk it's OHKOed. Oh yeah, it has Sand Veil like Garchomp. But Garchomp also has it. It may work also for Garchomp, making Gliscor sad. If someone want to counter Garchomp basing on Sand Veil hax... sorry, but it's not the right way to do it. At least for me. And Lucario doesn't have Sand Veil and it's slower then Gliscor making it much easier to counter.
I guess that's it ;). Cheers.
I'd just like to throw in my two cents into the conversation and state that Garchomp has been performing exceptionally for me for the time I've been using it on the Suspect ladder, and from what I've seen of Garchomp, I'm currently supporting an Uber status for it, mostly because of points jr7 and Haunter already stated. I'm really impressed by its ability to 2HKO every wall in the metagame with little effort, and Sand Veil is just a plus.
Anyways, I'm quite surprised no one has brought up Manaphy in this thread (at least during the last few pages), as it has been a potent sweeper for me which I feel needs some attention towards deciding its tiering. From what I've seen, all Manaphy needs to do is set up a Substitute and hit the incoming counter with the appropriate attack. Blissey and other Specially defensive walls (bar Snorlax) no longer stand a chance against this thing due to Tail Glow and 101 HP Substitutes, and offensive Pokemon risk losing a large amount of health in order to break its Substitute while Manaphy can switch in later in the game to repeat the cycle without too much risk to itself, provided it switches into an attack which has a lower chance of breaking its Substitute. Obviously, the crux of the set revolves around Tail Glow and bulky defenses, which very few other Pokemon can claim, if any.
I've had difficulty handling Manaphy myself, as my best chance is usually trying to weaken it with Gyarados providing it is only running Surf and Ice Beam, but due to Leftovers recovery, I always end up getting 2HKOed by +2 Ice Beam after Stealth Rock at the cost of leaving it weakened to where it can no longer set up a Substitute. From my experience, most people will just switch in Skymin or Latios just to get demolished by Ice Beam, and Latios can only switch in once to do this. Other than that, my (or my opponent's) other option in handling it has been to use Skarmory to phaze it out, but that only works so far to where your opponent realizes Skarmory is your best check to Manaphy, and sets up Tail Glow the next time instead of Substitute.
At this point, I'm rather convinced Manaphy is uber, but I'd like to see how everyone else feels about this particular suspect.
Anyways, I'm quite surprised no one has brought up Manaphy in this thread (at least during the last few pages), as it has been a potent sweeper for me which I feel needs some attention towards deciding its tiering. From what I've seen, all Manaphy needs to do is set up a Substitute and hit the incoming counter with the appropriate attack. Blissey and other Specially defensive walls (bar Snorlax) no longer stand a chance against this thing due to Tail Glow and 101 HP Substitutes, and offensive Pokemon risk losing a large amount of health in order to break its Substitute while Manaphy can switch in later in the game to repeat the cycle without too much risk to itself, provided it switches into an attack which has a lower chance of breaking its Substitute. Obviously, the crux of the set revolves around Tail Glow and bulky defenses, which very few other Pokemon can claim, if any.
I've had difficulty handling Manaphy myself, as my best chance is usually trying to weaken it with Gyarados providing it is only running Surf and Ice Beam, but due to Leftovers recovery, I always end up getting 2HKOed by +2 Ice Beam after Stealth Rock at the cost of leaving it weakened to where it can no longer set up a Substitute. From my experience, most people will just switch in Skymin or Latios just to get demolished by Ice Beam, and Latios can only switch in once to do this. Other than that, my (or my opponent's) other option in handling it has been to use Skarmory to phaze it out, but that only works so far to where your opponent realizes Skarmory is your best check to Manaphy, and sets up Tail Glow the next time instead of Substitute.
At this point, I'm rather convinced Manaphy is uber, but I'd like to see how everyone else feels about this particular suspect.
While this might be gimmicky an rain dancing hp icing bronzong seems to be a good counter badly damaging chomp and removing sand veil if applicable. this can also counter skymin and blow up aginst latios/manaphy. gimmicky but it works. hp ice does 59-71to a 0/0 which means a 2hko for sure with no yache a possible 2hko if yache is there and most certainly it can survive especially if it comes onto a stab eq.
I dunno, I ran Sub/Tail Glow Manaphy (with 252 HP, enough Speed to beat postive base 90s, and the rest in Special Attack, /w leftovers) and was fairly unimpressed with it. Gyarados and Skarmory both Phaze it easily, and even after a Tail Glow Skarm takes only around 60% from Surf, meaning unless your entire team threatens Skarm he's got a good chance of simply being able to roost off the damage as you switch out the whirlwind switch-in. It is capable of beating Bliss, but it's not an Auto-win, because Wish/Protect will heal off all of the damage from a +6 Surf, meaning she can stall you out.
Additionally, Manaphy has problems with other water types, including other Manaphy and especially Vaporeon, who takes only like 33% from a +6 Ice Beam.
I run the same set and with the same EVs, with just hidden power [electric] over ice beam and, although it can easily set-up on pokemons like Bronzong or even Gyarados, it's completely stopped by Lati@s. While, as you said, with surf and ice beam is walled by other waters.
Manaphy is of course a good pokemon, but can be countered and, having "only" 100 base Spe, revenge killed, especially in this suspect metagame characterized by Garchomp, Lati@s and Skymin, although, I have to say that I didn't find it broken even in the previous suspect test.
Manaphy is of course a good pokemon, but can be countered and, having "only" 100 base Spe, revenge killed, especially in this suspect metagame characterized by Garchomp, Lati@s and Skymin, although, I have to say that I didn't find it broken even in the previous suspect test.