np: SUMO UU Stage 1 - Feels Like We Only Go Backwards

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I might as well just jump in on the Staraptor discussion...

Anyways, I'm hoping that Staraptor will remain in UU. I feel that when Staraptor was revealed for a re-suspect, many of us probably overreacted about Staraptor's impact in the game (I guess this could be kinda similar to Crawdaunt back in ORAS). Staraptor is pretty scary to go up against, Flying / Normal / Fighting hits almost the entire tier (bar the counters such as Metagross, Doublade, etc.) and due to Reckless, Brave Bird or Double Edge, Staraptor's spammable moves, will take a chunk out of whatever Pokemon you switch in, even if its a neutral (resisted for squishier Pokemon such as Raikou) hit. As previously mentioned, the scarf set has proven itself to be an effective revenge killer while the banded set has shown itself as a scary wallbreaker.

Why is Staraptor fine for UU?
The main problem I have with Staraptor is how it can never switch in, or at least try not to switch in. Staraptor takes a ton from recoil damage, combined with potential status conditions or entry hazards. Staraptor wants to have as high amount of HP as possible so it can continue to knock things out so it can't really switch in too often, even against resisted Giga Drains from Amoonguss. Staraptor is also quite easily revenge killed, especially the rarer banded set where Staraptor gets outsped by quite a lot, with Pokemon like Counter Alakazam, Scarf Keldeo, Mega Aerodactyl, Bisharp, Scizor, and etc. especially now that hazard removal isn't as common as I have been told.

Yes, Staraptor is pretty hard to switch into if you don't have a hard counter (HO teams will struggle a bit) but, the same can be said with Primarina, Crawdaunt, and Kyurem, who are still known to be healthy-ish in UU.

So that's my opinion on Staraptor. Feel free to disagree.

So I guess another topic to bring up is

Mega-Sharpedo is now the bane of my existence, as well as Alakazam but, that's for a different time. Mega Sharpedo is insanely obnoxious to deal with from my experience. Like Staraptor, it is very hard to switch into the only thing is Mega-Sharpedo is not choiced-locked so it is slightly harder to take advantage of while still being fast. The amount of buffs it received I feel push Mega Sharpedo over the top (Prankster nerf, Mega evolution changes, Psychic Fangs). Anyways, not much else I want to say about it besides how annoying it is to face but, so I'd like to see more thoughts on it.
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It's been a while since I didn't post here so... like everyone I would like to make my contribution to Staraptor discussion.
It take me some times to read every comment about it.. Welp here I go..

To my mind, Staraptor is definitively a 'mon that centralize the entire metagame (like Clefable aka cancer). It's even worst than S rank Pokemon cuz' you need to build you entire team to counter it. As I can see, people playing some strange "random" Pokemon that we actually never seen in UU since the release of UU Bêta (like Rhyperior..). Even if it's cool to see some new stuff I'm not sure Raptor is healthy for the actual UU. It will be clearly better to wait Steelix-Mega or Aggron-Mega. I really hope Staraptor will not remain UU, he definitively centralize too much the metagame, too much restriction of build since he's testing and that sucks a lot..
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Usually raptor was done after punching a hole in them, due to how much recoil it dealt upon itself....
point being it can always punch some sort of hole in the majority of all balance-to-HO teams

Staraptor becomes a lot harder to bring out against faster, harder-hitting teams in general, with faster threats like Latias, Raikou, Cobalion, Sharpedo, etc. being extremely common and capable of one-shotting Staraptor with rocks up. Honestly the only way I felt it managed to really still pull its weight against those teams was because of momentum from partners carrying Volt Switch/U-turn getting it in safely on key Pokemon.
and since when are we lacking good, dependable partners for Staraptor to take advantage of? I can think of 8 off the top of my head.

Also this post from above me kinda caught my attention and I just wanna address it:
classic picking the shortest post, I see you :P

1. I don't think I would be using Staraptor stall anytime soon, my guy haha (Yeah I know you said "almost" but Raptor is strictly for offensive playstyles)
I can think of several examples where Staraptor would fit on decent Semi-Stall type teams. Last year, we also had that unique stall team where banded Krook was used for support. If you use Raptor in that way, it really really fucks with an opposing team's anti-stall strategy. You can utilize this mon's basic sets in tandem with so many standard cores that it literally doesn't make any sense to use other things, like Honchkrow or even Offensive Bat. In terms of all things ranging Balance-BO-HO (which is what majority of people these days are using), this thing is simply amazing and everyone knows it.
2. Doesn't an influential mon in the tier kind of increase strategy and diversity by causing players to find new mons/methods of preparing for it? Hikari and others above already covered stuff like Steelix, Rhyperior, Diancie, Bronzong, etc....mons I haven't seen used much that would seemingly get a bit of rise in viability in light of Staraptor. It's not as if every team's running only Doublade as Staraptor killer #1, right?
Fair point, I'm not really talking about defensive checks that are more popular now because of Raptor, I'm talking about core-teambuilding in general.

love csb

Clefable is by far the most solid and splashable Pokemon in the tier, we all know about this, but I'm still not sure what it's doing here, to be honest. Like Bouff said, there are a lot of ways to pressure it offensively and offensively, with strong attackers such as the Nidos and with Calm Mind walls such as Slowbro, but it isn't healthy at all. First of all, I've been testing all of its sets standard Calm Mind, Stealth Rock, CM + Life Orb, and Unaware wall), and it has limited counterplay due to its large coverage options. Let's imagine the following situation: I have a Scizor and a Volcanion, and my opponent has Calm Mind Clefable. I can't risk losing Scizor to Clefable this early, because my opponent has more Pokemon that Scizor must check, let's suppose it's Hone Claws Mega Aerodactyl. My only play is going to Volcanion, and that's what I did. I spent my turn switching in Clefable, and my opponent spent his turn clicking Calm Mind. I have Sludge Wave, and he is not using the standard EV spread (let's suppose he's using 252 HP / 172 Def / 84 SpD), this means Clefable can just Calm Mind again if I use Sludge Wave. Now, I can't touch Clefable with Volcanion, this means Scizor is my only answer to it. My opponent finally revealed Flamehtrower on its Clefable, and I can't touch it at all. This situation showcases how Clefable is hard to wear down, even with ridiculously strong attackers such as Volcanion. The Pokemon Bouff mentioned (Nidos, Magneton, Cobalion, Gengar, etc.) are lured by its offensive sets/uncommon coverage options, such as Fire Blast from its Life Orb set or BoltBeam coverage on its Calm Mind set (wall of calcs here). Some other strong attackers, such as Life Orb Alakazam with Encore or Choice Specs Chandelure won't threaten Clefable anymore if its team has Pursuit Mega Absol or Mega Aerodactyl. Other checks, such as Tentacruel and Empoleon, don't have reliable recovery and are wear down by its teammates. Well, talking about Clefable teammates, I'd like to point out that Clefable works well on every playstyle too. A well build stall team (aka a stall team that is not losing to Nasty Plot Togekiss) is basically unbeatable with Clefable, unless you use some dedicated stallbreakers, such as Vincune, mixed Volcanion, or Adamant Decidueye (utter trash set but breaks mandi-less stall well), which are not as reliable as they should be because stall runs common answers to these (Haze Mantine, physically defensive Mandibuzz). Balance squads with Clefable are also super solid, as they usually have Pursuit trappers which trap things that could stop a Clefable sweep, such as the aforementioned Life Orb Alakazam and Choice Specs Chandelure. Lastly, offense squads can abuse of its Life Orb set to wallbreak and find opportunities to sweep with a wincon such as Dragon Dance Zydoge or Swords Dance Bisharp. Clefable has really limited counterplay due to its splashability, and I don't like a tier which has it as its main staple (that's why I still hate ORAS OU).


This thing is... I don't know how to describe Staraptor. It's, in short, a double-edged-emo sword. Staraptor is a strong wallbreaker, but not like Victini. Both have a significant weakness to Stealth Rock and are Pursuit baits, but Victini is much better, as it can run a huge variety of sets, such as Band, Scarf, Specs (yes, specs tini was p good against fat shit), Trick Room, and even mixed with Grass Knot. Unlike Victini, Staraptor can't run a lot of sets, but it is still strong as hell. Its Choice Band set has a really big advantage against balance squads, as it 2HKOes stuff like Hippowdon and Slowbro while being a solid pivot with U-turn if opponent's squad has the few Pokemon that can switch in Staraptor safely (Doublade, Diancie, Rhyperior, etc.). Choice Scarf gives Staraptor a ridiculous form to punish offense squads, but I'm not a big fan of it because it struggles against other Scarfers and invites Mega Aerodactyl to come in and Pursuit trap it. In fact, Staraptor is really strong, but it's really easy to wear down with Stealth Rock. Victini had a small amount of checks, and it could still force some 50/50s against Mega Aerodactyl or Absol if it stayed in, as they could not OHKO it with Pursuit, even at -1, but Staraptor MUST switch out if it wants to stay healthy, but it's always Pursuit trapped if it wants to keep the offensive pressure, what means it will die after Stealth Rock. It's really hard to keep Stealth Rock out of the field while using offense, especially if your opponent is using double ghost hyper offense (usually Froslass + Gengar/Doublade), then yeah, Staraptor is dead weight. It's not healthy by any means, but it's really manageable too. I hope the coucil bans it though. Oh, I was doing this post while King UU made his post, but yeah, I agree with Kink, this tier needs more variety.


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I think comparing Staraptor to Victini is apt. Both are strong wallbreakers or Scarfers, both have good but not stellar Speed, both are rocks weak, both are heavily reliant on a dangerous STAB move that is very difficult to switch into but has some major defensive drawbacks.

The problem is... Staraptor is no Victini. Tini had fucking incredible bulk for an offensive threat, a typing that resisted several forms of priority and an incredible movepool that made it way less predictable than Raptor. I still think Raptor is very, very good, but I'm already seeing the meta adjust around it. Sure, standard Clef/Scizor/Lati balances might need to adjust a bit - but not much. Raptor's suicidal nature means that you don't strictly need a hard counter that can last through the game, which means that it's less restrictive to teambuilding than its calcs would seem to imply.

I'm voting to unban Raptor this time around. It's time to give this bird a nest.

I've been reading through the thread today (entertaining stuff, btw) and I find myself mostly agreeing with Hikari, even though I swear he doesn't even play UU lmao.

As has been pointed out numerous times, Staraptor is very strong offensively, but has a ton of shortcomings defensively. Staraptor can use different sets to be efficient versus different playstyles, too. It can't, however, do everything the damage calculator might make you believe it can.

As obvious as Close Combat killing Bisharp is for anyone, in practice you can't just simply click that move whenever you wish. Again, every trade in which you don't get the OHKO you die and Close Combat is by far Staraptor riskiest move in that aspect, so are you going to click Close Combat vs the Specs Keldeo predicting the Bisharp switch in? If Keldeo stays in you lose what is likely to be your only scarfer. Another thing is that Close Combat is the only move that keeps Staraptor in the field; U-turn switches it out and its STAB make it kill itself in two turns. Maybe that sounds good on paper, but one of the reasons Scarf Staraptor is good vs offense is the fact that it rarely becomes setup fodder, and getting locked into unSTABed unboosted Close Combat is the easiest way of not using that trait.
Pokemon is way more complicated than "my opponent's Pokemon has 25% chance of clicking any of its 4 moves". That's why I didn't mention Gengar as a check, despite the fact it's immune to half of its moves and x4 resists U-turn. Staraptor is a Pokemon that kills itself in two turns, it's weak to Stealth Rock, and has almost no switch in opportunity. Forcing it out is cripples it and then something else of your team has to tank a hit / deal with +2 Bisharp / etc anyway.
This has essentially been my experience playing with, and against, Staraptor, too. Staraptor is very strong, very good, but not as unbeatable as the damage calculations suggest it might be. I'm personally going to vote for it to come back to UU.

Oh, btw, I wanna recommend to all of you that are interested in the development of this metagame to consider the points made above when we're re-testing Diggersby. I think you're going to experience a distinct difference between the two. :p
It took me a long while to gather my thoughts properly, so I am rather late in posting this. Most of the things that I want to say have already been said, so I'll try to keep it short. Let me preface this by clarifying that I went into this suspect with the mentality of "it's not broken unless proven otherwise"; despite my prior knowledge of what Staraptor has been capable of, I decided to keep an open mind and go into this test assuming it is a perfectly normal element of the tier. I would only be observing how it functions and operates, and then come to a conclusion based on its performance in the current metagame.

Staraptor is undoubtedly very strong. It becomes a great revenge killer if equipped with a Choice Scarf, and a fearsome wallbreaker when equipped with a Choice Band. Both of these sets have flaws, as several people have highlighted before me, yet they still perform absurdly well. The question of whether or not they perform too well has been plaguing me. Whenever I played and Staraptor put in a lot of work, I asked myself: is my opponent playing well? Is his team prepared for Staraptor? If not, was his team prepared for the meta without Staraptor? If so, can it be tweaked to adjust for Staraptor?

Usually, the answer to these questions was that my opponent had not been playing well. A lot of teams had Staraptor countermeasures, but they weren't used properly. If the team was unprepared for Staraptor, it was oftentimes - not always - also unprepared for a meta without Raptor. And a good team could usually be tweaked to deal with the bird. Seldom have I found myself in a situation where Staraptor was the true reason my opponent was losing. On top of that, when I wasn't playing well, Staraptor was usually unable to reverse the situation for me. It has been very good, but it has not exhibited any trait that would make me call it outright broken.

I found myself trading Staraptor for 1 KO and 50% damage on another Pokemon a lot. However, to bring Staraptor in, I also often had to sack something myself, so this was a rather fair trade in my opinion. By pairing Staraptor with a VoltTurn core, or just U-turn users in general, I managed to find Staraptor more opportunities to put in work. However, the amount of work it put did not vary by a lot, and if it exceeded my expectations, a misplay of some sort was involved.

A combination that seemed rather hard to stop was Staraptor + Healing Wish Latias. Life Orb Latias was able to put in a large amount of work by itself, and could Healing Wish Staraptor back up once it is worn down. Some of the common answers to Latias, such as Scizor, could drop to Hidden Power Fire and gave my opponent one less way of revenge killing Staraptor. Of course, since Hidden Power Fire is so common on Latias, one should always carry other answers to it, but those sometimes had to be expended early on. That being said, the Staraptor + Healing Wish combination is by no means impossible to defeat, and it does not automatically win games; rather, I think I learned that a wallbreaker / revenge killer + Healing Wish can be incredibly potent. It's not like this is complete news to me, as the combination of HW Mola + Specs Hydra + Scarf Ape has showed me last gen, but I was surprised by how effective HW was, and I am looking forward to further experimenting with Healing Wish in the near future.

Anyhow, back to Staraptor. I don't think many people have talked about its moves outside of Brave Bird yet, and I can see why. I sometimes click U-turn, but I am usually better off just dealing a lot of damage to an incoming Pokemon. I rarely ever click Close Combat. It may be good coverage that occasionally comes in handy, but it usually is too risky to use. A lot of people have been running different moves in the last slot. I have tried Double-edge, and not once used it. I have tried Quick Attack, and it had some situational uses on Staraptor's Choice Band set, but it wasn't that great. I also tried Tailwind to support a teammate in case I had to sack Staraptor, but I was usually better off just clicking Brave Bird. I have been meaning to try Sleep Talk, since Staraptor seems like an okay switch-in to Amoonguss, but I have not gotten around to that yet, and I don't believe it would change much. The last moveslot on Staraptor's sets is rather customizable, but I feel it does not offer much. Staraptor still functions well without it, though.

In closing, Staraptor may be a one trick pony, but it is a very effective one at that. It is incredibly hard to handle, but I do believe it is not unstoppable. It has many great qualities, but there are noticable flaws. I had a hard time reaching a conclusion on this suspect, but I do believe I finally have one.

Now, on to other things! I did not forget posting about the results of Research Week, but wanted to bundle it with my thoughts on that bird we're suspecting, and it took me longer to accomplish that than I intiially thought. Last week, Choice Band Swampert, SD Z-Explosion Silvally and Choice Specs Ribombee have been tested, and I wish to present the results my researchers have found!

Let's start with Swampert. Usually, one would use it as a defensive pivot and Stealth Rock setter. It offers some cool coverage, but that is usually foregone in favor of Roar to prevent set-up while racking up hazard damage. However, with a Choice Band, it turned out to be unexpectedly fierce. A great defensive typing, great bulk and good coverage allowed it to punch holes into a good part of the meta, either by virtue of being unexpectedly strong or luring something with coverage. Despite being "unexpectedly strong", its 110 base Attack did hold it back a bit, and it struggled to 2HKO some of the bulkier physical walls such as Slowbro. A similar Pokemon that would usually be better to use in most cases would be Rhyperior, which is a lot stronger. Granted, Rhyperior has a different typing, but it still offers a lot defensively. If Swampert performed as well as it did, it makes me curious as to what Rhyperior could do.

The Silvally set being tested was gifted to me by the cute user Pearl, and as he promised me, it was good. After a Swords Dance boost, Z-Explosion could KO a large many threats, and sturdier ones often dropped to a Return right after, or the following actual Explosion. Sometimes, Scizors would attempt to wall it, only to get KOed by Flame Charge. On top of that, using Flame Charge allowed Silvally to outspeed every unboosted threat in the entire metagame, and made it that much more threatening unless the opponent had a faster Choice Scarf user. This set was very straight-forward, but incredibly effective.

The surprise of the week has to be Choice Specs Ribombee. Many people had written it off as too frail to work, and its power was called into question. However, while it was not the greatest wallbreaker, its amazing Speed tier coupled with a decent offensive typing allowed it to run through many offensive teams. Some Pokemon, such as Empoleon or Scizor, were problematic for Ribombee, but pairing it with Magneton fixed those issues. Amoonguss also seemed threatening at first, but Psychic is a clean 2HKO on common variations of Amoonguss, so Ribombee could even weaken or take out this Pokemon for a teammate.

Overall, all Pokemon this week operated at least somewhat well, and I want to thank all my researchers for participating. I want to give a special shoutout to Ov3r Ac3, as his pastebin of Ribombee calcs gave me some interesting insight into how this Pokemon operates, and what support works best with it. Keep on rocking!

edit: just edited a tiny bit in the second paragraph after I was fighting the forums for 5 minutes because I suck at using BB code, apparently.
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Staraptor voting is complete, and it has been banned.

dodmen: Ban
Hikari: Unban
Hogg: Unban
Pearl: Ban
King UU: Ban
Christo.: Ban
Bouff: Ban
Tony: Unban
Sacri': Ban
Lord Esche: Unban
CoolStoryBrobat: Unban
Ark: Unban

Azumarill is the next Pokemon to be suspected. Rotating council this round is going to be Highways, TSR, and Eyan.

The Immortal, please remove Staraptor from the UU ladder and add Azumarill. Thanks as usual!

My initial thoughts on Azumarill: I definitely think Azumarill has potential to stay in the tier, though it's another wallbreaker that doesn't have too much in the way of hard counters. A big part of this is that it suffers from poor Speed, unlike the two wallbreakers we've tested so far, meaning it's prone to being offensive checked by far more of the tier. Of course, it has priority to make up for this, but even +6 Azumarill is checked by many many Pokemon. Honestly I think CB is the set to look at in particular for this round, since it's fairly good at finding opportunities to come in and nuke stuff. Belly Drum is obviously solid too, but I feel that it's not that easy to setup and still isn't going to sweep a well made team without a lot of other factors involved. The complaints I heard in beta about facing Azumarill stemmed from the guessing game between Belly Drum and CB, so we'll see if that's enough of an issue to keep it BL.
is a 50% (or greater) vote all that's needed to ban a mon?

also on azumarill, while i think individually its sets aren't perhaps 100% broken, i think the huge difference in counters/checks/switchins to BD and band (and AV's utility i guess lol) are what makes it so good.
if its just band, there are a few switchins/pivots a team can make(slowbro, amoonguss etc) , as well as numerous ways to take advantage of the choice lock.
if BD, you usually have to sack to figure out its BD and then switch to a +6 aqua jet resist which there aren't exactly that many, or you pressure it from the start to prevent the sweep/hole punching.

while you could say team composition gives a hint at what kind of azu it is, it's not realistically enough, and having to guess between pivoting/scouting and letting it set up for free is a 50/50 heavily not in favor of the opponent of azu.

maybe its not broken as a whole, but its def another balance/stall breaker lol
its also not dog doo doo vs offense due to aqua jet and decent bulk allowing it to eat most neutral hits


Sugar, Spice and One For All
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Wow. That Raptor vote got split right down the middle. Possible re-resuspect test much furthur down the line? (ala Crawdaunt in ORAS). Anyways, Azumarill. I think it has potential to stay in UU, moreso than most other BL mons. Its speed and reliance on priority to handle offence can be easily exploited, maybe a spike in Heliolisk usage is to be expected?

Also people, Steelixite and Pidgeotite are confirmed for release. What are your thoughts?

Avant Heim

formerly The Bill Cipher
Wow. That Raptor vote got split right down the middle. Possible re-resuspect test much furthur down the line? (ala Crawdaunt in ORAS). Anyways, Azumarill. I think it has potential to stay in UU, moreso than most other BL mons. Its speed and reliance on priority to handle offence can be easily exploited, maybe a spike in Heliolisk usage is to be expected?

Also people, Steelixite and Pidgeotite are confirmed for release. What are your thoughts?
I think we are going to see mega pidgeot here,don't know if it will get banned,but with the mega buff this gen,getting at first mega turn 135 SpA and 121 Spe,there is a high ban possibility,and for mega steelix,never really used,but i think it's going to stick here this gen
Mega Pidgeot in theory shouldn't be as bad this gen considering the confusion nerf. Although the immediate higher speed could be a problem, but it seems more likely to me that it will be able to stay than get banned. It was never truly broken per se, iirc it was just the extremely annoying confusion that made it broken.
As much as I love Azumarill, I think it got even better this gen. CB and drum are still good, but z moves have opened up the doors even more for Azu. Z-belly drum allows for easier setup and the power behind huge power (lol) regardless makes it a fierce wallbreaker. Definitely think BL is Azu's home
Wow. That Raptor vote got split right down the middle. Possible re-resuspect test much furthur down the line? (ala Crawdaunt in ORAS). Anyways, Azumarill. I think it has potential to stay in UU, moreso than most other BL mons. Its speed and reliance on priority to handle offence can be easily exploited, maybe a spike in Heliolisk usage is to be expected?

Also people, Steelixite and Pidgeotite are confirmed for release. What are your thoughts?
I actually think Staraptor might fare a better chance of sticking in UU if it's retested down the line. The release of existing megas will help to check it offensively (M-Pidgeot and M-Sceptile both outspeed and OHKO non-scarfed raptor after rocks) and defensively (M-Steelix and M-Aggron both shrug off the damage from any variant without a fighting move). Considering how close the vote was this time I wouldn't be surprised at all to see that outcome, especially if there are new megas further down the line.

I agree with Joe above, the confusion nerf really makes M-Pidgeot more manageable this gen. It's very predictable and outsped by pretty much any scarfer. I bet it sticks in UU.

As for Azumarill, iirc it was voted on during every round of quickbans in beta and only banished to BL during the last vote. It definitely has the potential to be an overcentralizing force in the meta but there are a few true hard counters to it, unlike Victini and Staraptor which only have checks. I guess only time will tell but I think the vote will be close regardless.
Wow. That Raptor vote got split right down the middle. Possible re-resuspect test much furthur down the line? (ala Crawdaunt in ORAS). Anyways, Azumarill. I think it has potential to stay in UU, moreso than most other BL mons. Its speed and reliance on priority to handle offence can be easily exploited, maybe a spike in Heliolisk usage is to be expected?

Also people, Steelixite and Pidgeotite are confirmed for release. What are your thoughts?
M-Steelix seems appealing with its useful typing. Steel/Ground lets it come in on things like M-Aerodactyl, Latias, Raikou, and Scizor. Prevalence of Clefable is a plus, but it needs to be careful of potential fire coverage. Offensively, it isn't a slouch either packing 125 base Attack and decently powerful Heavy Slams. Coupled with its massive defense, it can act as a panic button for powerful physical moves.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 52 Def Steelix: 148-175 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Absol Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 52 Def Steelix: 118-141 (33.3 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 52 Def Steelix: 230-272 (64.9 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You get the idea; M-Steelix then threatens to heavily damage the foe. But of course, you wouldn't want M-Steelix to soak all that up, especially if there are still threats to cover on the opposing team. M-Steelix would be prone to being worn down because of lack of reliable recovery. It would also be competing for a Mega slot, so there's that. Overall though, M-Steelix seems like it'd be a neat 'mon in the tier with its hazard utility, it being a good hindrance against Volt-turn and checking a variety of threats.

Now, I'm most excited with M-Pidgeot! There's kind of a stigma on abusers of high-powered Flying type moves (Staraptor, Torn-T, Flyinium Z abusers aheheh) and for good reason, being that reliable flying resists are quite few and far between. I don't think confusion nerf wouldn't hurt M-Pidgeot that much because 100% accurate Hurricanes coming off of 135 base Special Attack is still troubling. It also sits at a great Speed tier and with access to U-turn, this is gonna be a pain to deal with. Its stallbreaker set seems promising because of powerful unboosted Hurricanes pressuring premier Unaware walls in Clefable and Quagsire.

I don't have much to say to Azumarill for now. Personally, I haven't run into much trouble when it was still in the tier. CB and BD sets each have their own problems and the tier do have viable checks and counters to it (Volcanion, Toxicroak, and Amoonguss to name a few). CB actually seems a bit more threatening because of its immediate firepower. As said by dodmen, I think the decision to ban it or not hinges upon how problematic its unpredictability will be.


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I had to ask as it has been something tickling the back of my mind. How is Sun in the current metagame (Drought in particular)? Has anyone had any success with it? Do you think its a sleeper threat? Is it still banworthy at all? (probs not).
I had to ask as it has been something tickling the back of my mind. How is Sun in the current metagame (Drought in particular)? Has anyone had any success with it? Do you think its a sleeper threat? Is it still banworthy at all? (probs not).
I've played a considerable amount of sun since it came out. Torkoal kinda sucks, but being physically bulky while having both rocks and spin is pretty neat, even though I rarely found time to do everything it needed to do. Still drought coupled with venusaur was worth it on its own. Speaking of venusaur it can 6-0 most stall teams with a growth set.

The team I ran was (although pretty mediocre imo)

Torkoal@ Heat Rock
Ability: Drought
Bold Nature: 252 HP, 252 Def
-Rapid Spin
-Stealth Rock

Venusaur@ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
Modest Nature: 252 Sp. Att, 252 Spe
-Giga Drain
-Sludge Bomb
-Hidden Power Fire

Chandelure@ Choice Scarf
Ability: Flash Fire
Timid Nature: 252 Sp. Att, 252 Spe
-Fire Blast
-Shadow Ball
-Energy Ball

Klefki@ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
Bold Nature: 252 HP, 252 Def
-Light Screen
-Play Rough

Togekiss@ Heat Rock
Ability: Serene Grace
Timid Nature: 252 Sp. Att, 252 Spe
-Sunny Day
-Fire Blast
-Dazzling Gleam

Victreebel@ Grassium Z
Ability: Chlorophyll
Naive Nature: 252 Spe, 252 Att
-Power Whip
-Knock Off
-Weather Ball

Like I said the team sucks (Nidoking is satan against it) but I wanted to try dual screens + sun to terrorize what I could. I don't have any saved replays but anyone who brought a stall team against it knows the pain of venusaur. Scarf Chandelure in sun does Staraptor calibres of carnage to opposing teams, even more ridiculous when you add in Flash Fire. Although my team is meh Sun has MASSIVE potential in UU. Volcanion is scary, hydreigon is scary, Latias is scary, and Hippo can kill your momentum.

EDIT: I don't think sun is remotely broken. The abusers are less effective than rain due to the fact they don't get their strongest moves boosted while also getting their speed bonuses. I think it's a viable play style the can work in both balance and hyper offense. Also as stated at the end a lot of staples in UU have strong match ups against sun.
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What's everyone's thoughts on Flygon and Kommo-o right now? I know people were getting more hopeful for them as other Dragon Dancers were moving up at the start of the beta but it seems like they're both still pretty bad.


the end is here
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I had to ask as it has been something tickling the back of my mind. How is Sun in the current metagame (Drought in particular)? Has anyone had any success with it? Do you think its a sleeper threat? Is it still banworthy at all? (probs not).
I've seen a few people using sun with /decent/ success even though I think it's a rather average style as of now. Sun has many problems to deal with, one of the most important being that both Torkoal and Ninetales are awful. They simply don't have any purpose outside of setting sun up which means they have to be kept alive despite the fact that they dont do much on their own. Torkoal is an average at best spinner, it loses to an important amount of rocks setter, it's slow, far from powerful and easy to wear down simply because it has to carry Heat rock. Something else i've noticed with Sun is that it always ends up being extremely weak to common threats such as Latias or Aero. Priorities are also very common right now thus meaning Sun sweepers can be revenge killer without that much trouble if they have been damaged a little which isn't hard to obtain since most run life orb. Sun can still be effective if it's played well and if the match up is has is decent. So yeah, I don't see Drought being banworthy anytime soon.

What's everyone's thoughts on Flygon and Kommo-o right now? I know people were getting more hopeful for them as other Dragon Dancers were moving up at the start of the beta but it seems like they're both still pretty bad.
Both Kommo-o and Flygon can be decent at times, especially if they carry a Z-Move to lure Clefable. They still face competition from Haxorus which actually breaks teams if it has managed to boost up, most of the time that is what I would run if i wanted to use a DD user unless Flygon's typing is needed badly. I wouldn't say they are particularly bad, they just need very specific situations to be able to put work which is why they end up not being used much.

Also, that's my 600th post oo
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fuzzy-chan \(ㆁヮㆁ✿)
is an Artist
Alright just gonna rant about the current meta a bit...

Alakazam has been a lot more of pain to deal with ever since it got a fancy new toy to play with... Counter. Now it might be "New Toy Syndrome" taking effect but, old checks such as Krookodile, Mega-Aerodactyl, Scizor, etc. (physical attackers mostly) now have trouble to take it down, unless Alakazam has been previously weakened, because of the SashCounter strategy. It's also a little bit funny how Alakazam now checks Pokemon such as Bisharp or Scizor as long as its Sash is intact. Alakazam does have problems though, the biggest being 4MSS imo. Psychic/Psyshock along with Counter are mandatory while the last 2 slots can be filled with Encore (incompatible with Dazzling Gleam though), Shadow Ball, Focus Blast, Thunder Wave, Dazzling Gleam and HP Fire. There are a quite limited amount of checks to Alakazam, the most reliable I feel is Klefki since it resists Psychic and threatens with Thunder Wave, but has to be careful about HP Fire. Overall, I find Alakazam a bit more of a nuisance to deal with now that it has Counter since it is now a little bit unbearable to deal with without multiple checks. Don't confuse this with me trying to suspect Alakazam, I'm simply just sharing my thoughts on it.

Azumarill is a bit of a mixed bag for me, so I'm both pro and anti ban. Azumarill is quite scary, the Banded set being the more popular choice. Banded Play Rough, Waterfall, or Knock Off is not fun to switch into (there are hardly many Pokemon in the tier that would want to switch into them) but, Azumarill can be exploited in its choiced state easily enough once you are able to scout. Its reliance on priority is easily exploited with Pokemon such as Tsareena, Volcanion, and Toxicroak that can easily take advantage of it locked into Aqua Jet. Z-Belly Drum is also quite scary to face as well, but, these sets usually focus on spamming Aqua Jet which is also pretty exploitable. On the flip side, Azumarill is hard to switch into (as mentioned before) which is the main problem, similarly to Staraptor and Vicitini, but in a lesser extreme manner. Overall, I could see it staying but, I can also see it going back to BL, only time will tell us the fate of our rabbit friend.
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