np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 16 - Zero To Hero

[waffle04]

I finished up reqs a bit ago and I just want to drop my initial thoughts. As a precursor, I have not yet played high ladder with it nor has the mon been legal for long, with roughly two weeks left.

There's been lots of talk about it and I've seen tour players be very polarized on where it stands and after some games, it's fine i guess. In certain instances it does feel like a stat check mon but it's largely contained by whatever is in the meta. Dragons, waterpon, tera water, pech, apple, sinistcha are all common and good options to check the pokemon, and different sets get stifled by different mons. Band is linear where you scout and play from there while bulk up is slightly more annoying when trying to figure out if it's taunt or 3a and what item it is at times. Regardless, team structure gives away the set just like kyurem and zama and from there you just play around it. A lot of the concerns of it running away with games (for the bulk up set) is largely during to player error not containing it which is not at all dissimilar to existing threats like gambit, kyurem, roaring moon or zamazenta. Its always going to be a constant threat that should be accounted for but can be planned around for sure. If anything it falls on the latter side of those mons where it's more consistently able to be stopped unlike gambit or kyurem which can run away with games with an SD or 5th spear hit, respectively.

Another thing people seem to handwave is just how bad that babyfin turn is. Leading palafin is a huge momentum sink that immediately puts you on the back foot while trying to get it in later for free is near impossible. Often times it feels like you have to sack a perfectly healthy mon or give up major hp just to get the dolphin in successfully. It pigeonholes you into certain plays or to play very aggressively to not be stuck with a borderline lc pokemon. The aforementioned manaphy analog is very accurate imo because just like Palafin, it needs a free turn but is far too easily punished. In manaphy's case it makes it a fringely viable pokemon, in palafin's case, it's a good mid-upper tier pokemon (probably comparable to A- or lower end of A) that forces you to play with 5 pokemon until it becomes a real pokemon.

 

[Moisture99]

I finished up reqs a bit ago and I just want to drop my initial thoughts. As a precursor, I have not yet played high ladder with it nor has the mon been legal for long, with roughly two weeks left.

There's been lots of talk about it and I've seen tour players be very polarized on where it stands and after some games, it's fine i guess. In certain instances it does feel like a stat check mon but it's largely contained by whatever is in the meta. Dragons, waterpon, tera water, pech, apple, sinistcha are all common and good options to check the pokemon, and different sets get stifled by different mons. Band is linear where you scout and play from there while bulk up is slightly more annoying when trying to figure out if it's taunt or 3a and what item it is at times. Regardless, team structure gives away the set just like kyurem and zama and from there you just play around it. A lot of the concerns of it running away with games (for the bulk up set) is largely during to player error not containing it which is not at all dissimilar to existing threats like gambit, kyurem, roaring moon or zamazenta. Its always going to be a constant threat that should be accounted for but can be planned around for sure. If anything it falls on the latter side of those mons where it's more consistently able to be stopped unlike gambit or kyurem which can run away with games with an SD or 5th spear hit, respectively.

Another thing people seem to handwave is just how bad that babyfin turn is. Leading palafin is a huge momentum sink that immediately puts you on the back foot while trying to get it in later for free is near impossible. Often times it feels like you have to sack a perfectly healthy mon or give up major hp just to get the dolphin in successfully. It pigeonholes you into certain plays or to play very aggressively to not be stuck with a borderline lc pokemon. The aforementioned manaphy analog is very accurate imo because just like Palafin, it needs a free turn but is far too easily punished. In manaphy's case it makes it a fringely viable pokemon, in palafin's case, it's a good mid-upper tier pokemon (probably comparable to A- or lower end of A) that forces you to play with 5 pokemon until it becomes a real pokemon.

Great post.

Zerofin is abysmal and an Achilles' Heel people are heavily overlooking. This is probably because a lot of games are Palafin mirrors as its the spotlight of the suspect, where both players just lead it and hence the effects are not felt as opposed to Palafin vs no Palafin teams.

If you don't lead Zerofin, it's really not just one turn you're giving up - that would be if you are frozen for one turn then unfreeze while in a positive matchup. It's more like two because you generally have to switch it in then switch it right back out. In game, this would be like giving an opposing Lando free rocks (Zerofin in) AND a free uturn (Zerofin out)... I'm sure I don't need to explain how much of a disadvantage this is, especially in an offense mirror where momentum is king. Hence, Palafin teams in practice are usually forced to equalise, which is a practical tradeoff for Herofin's power. Therefore, you're usually forced to lead it and just lose the one turn because there are many games where there are genuinely 0 chances to get Zerofin in and out without letting it lose half its health, die, or just instantly losing the game. So, you either
1. Make the predictable decision to lead with Zerofin and accept that your opponent gets free hazards/momentum/etc
2. Try to sneak in Zerofin during the game, maybe with Gking or whatever - giving up two turns and coping that your opponent can't exploit them

 

[qways]

Id like to compare Palafin to Ogerpon-w.
Imo Palafin is clearly better against offense due to having priority in jet punch. On the other hand i think against more bulky teams ogerpon is a bit better cause palafin doesnt have knock or a grass move, even though palafins flip turn is much stronger than ogerpons u-turn.
However palafin has much better tera and cheese potential.
Overall Ogerpon-w is borderline but closer to balanced category, while palafin is borderline but closer to broken category imo. I can definetely see the test going either way but would sligthly prefer a ban.

 

[TheTraininator]

Although I’m heavily invested in this suspect, I don’t think I’ll be able to invest time to get reqs, sadly. Being an adult working a 40 hour/week job is hard, and to all of you who can do what I do and still find time to ladder, I want to offer you genuine props; you guys are the backbone of this community, and I don’t know how you manage. Instead, I’ll take the time to talk about why I personally contributed towards funding this suspect test through the Likeshop, which does actually translate in part to my thoughts on Palafin as a whole, though it’s also a bit of tiering philosophy and the nature of forum discussions.

To start, I’ve been on the train that Palafin’s brokenness has been overstated for a while; over a year back now, I was already starting to believe that Palafin would be a more manageable Pokémon than when it was initially (and justifiably) quickbanned, but it wasn’t a very popular opinion at the time. This was quite understandable of course considering that the DLCs and HOME were giving us much bigger fish to fry, and even I was much more interested in pushing another Pokémon I thought deserved another look in an OU context, that being Darkrai. But as time went on, I started to see knowledgeable players publicly echoing that sentiment, which was very encouraging to me. Maybe this would be what was needed to have an actual discussion on this Pokémon, cast aside our biases caused by looking at its ludicrous base stats and PTSD from when it stomped all over a fledgling metagame, and truly begin to evaluate if its set of tools would prove to be broken or healthy in our current, much more developed, much higher power-level metagame.

…Except no, that’s not what happened. Because despite the successful unbans of two Deoxys formes, Darkrai, AND Zamazenta this gen, people were still getting incredibly touchy about the topic of unbans, (sorry DaddyBuzzwole I promise no hate), and while I completely understand how annoying it was when attempts at discussion about the metagame at hand were being derailed to have to talk about what a theoretical Solgaleo metagame would look like for the 516th time that month, it was equally as frustrating to me that some legitimately good points in favor of this ‘mon’s legality were being angrily swept under the rug every single time they were so much as mentioned in passing. The metagame had stabilized so much over the course of the past year, and despite so much changing that on paper seemed to be theoretically hostile to Palafin in so many ways, this very pushback kept leading to the discussion thread being closed again and again, completely gridlocking an attempt at a conversation.

After all this, I had essentially given up hope that anything tangible was ever going to happen in regards to the dolphin, up until Finchinator unveiled the Likeshop initiative. While clearly mainly intended as just a fun little holiday event, it suddenly opened up an avenue to show support for a suspect of Palafin in a way that couldn’t be silenced, and I think a lot of people must have been feeling similar to me this past year because almost immediately after it started, there was suddenly a huge boost towards the dolphin from many high-level players. Naturally of course, it can’t be ignored that Finchinator contributing over 180,000 likes was an absolutely massive start with which to snowball off of, but the community was fast to take advantage, and I happily contributed what I could to push for this. Finally, after a whole year, we have an avenue with which to have a true discussion of the pros and cons of this Pokémon on an actual stage of debate after an undeniable community push proving that the drive truly was there to do so, right?

For the most part, yes actually, this discussion has been fantastic both ways! But I am still seeing certain users who I will not name acting like this suspect is just a meme because of the circumstances in which it has come about, that the council has lost their marbles for enabling it, that there’s no way “ability-less Slaking” (lie) would ever be balanced in an OU context and it’s not even worth entertaining yadda yadda yadda OH MY GOD WHY IS THIS STILL HAPPENING AFTER A YEAR??? So to those who would decry the council or those of us who have pushed for this suspect, let me sum up my beliefs as concisely as possible:

This suspect is not a meme; we legitimately want to look at this Pokémon critically, not burn the tier to the ground.

The council are not dictators; they have actively given the people a platform to push for a suspect that lots of us have wanted to happen for months.

And finally, yes there is legitimate potential merit to unbanning this Pokémon, and genuine potential for positive impact on the tier.

TL;DR: Please, no matter whether you believe this Pokémon is healthy or broken, can we please just have a rational discussion on it like civilized adults? That’s all I ask.

____________________________________________

One last little addition: to briefly talk about the actual reasons I believe that the tier has shifted in a way to merit the discussion of Palafin’s legality, basically the two major factors are a) the introduction of Pokémon to the tier such as Ogerpon-W, Zamazenta, Pecharunt, and Raging Bolt alongside the increasing popularity/better optimization of bulky waters like Alomomola and Dondozo, which give the playerbase options that match up well into it both defensively and offensively, alongside b) the general heightened power level plus greater skill level and knowledge of the playerbase making it harder to afford to give up free turns, (which is really bad for a Pokémon that inherently requires giving up free turns in order to function. Seriously, its nerf condition is a genuine big deal even in 6v6 singles; let’s stop downplaying it please.)

 

[Firer4]

Great post.

Zerofin is abysmal and an Achilles' Heel people are heavily overlooking. This is probably because a lot of games are Palafin mirrors as its the spotlight of the suspect, where both players just lead it and hence the effects are not felt as opposed to Palafin vs no Palafin teams.

If you don't lead Zerofin, it's really not just one turn you're giving up - that would be if you are frozen for one turn then unfreeze while in a positive matchup. It's more like two because you generally have to switch it in then switch it right back out. In game, this would be like giving an opposing Lando free rocks (Zerofin in) AND a free uturn (Zerofin out)... I'm sure I don't need to explain how much of a disadvantage this is, especially in an offense mirror where momentum is king. Hence, Palafin teams in practice are usually forced to equalise, which is a practical tradeoff for Herofin's power. Therefore, you're usually forced to lead it and just lose the one turn because there are many games where there are genuinely 0 chances to get Zerofin in and out without letting it lose half its health, die, or just instantly losing the game. So, you either
1. Make the predictable decision to lead with Zerofin and accept that your opponent gets free hazards/momentum/etc
2. Try to sneak in Zerofin during the game, maybe with Gking or whatever - giving up two turns and coping that your opponent can't exploit them

Cb sets are much less of a liability in that regard. To take your example you could simply outspeed the Landot and flip turn forcing it to eat a huge chunk of damage

252 Atk Choice Band Palafin Flip Turn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 216-254 (56.5 - 66.4%)

You also threaten to just straight up kill them with wave crash. If they switch you instead get momentum via a favorable switch in.

You can do this vs basically any mon that you outspeed and have a good switch in to which should be most defensive mobs. For example you can flip turn vs a tusk into your moltres or vs a clefable into your glowking etc.

 

[Carl The Turtle]

Cb sets are much less of a liability in that regard. To take your example you could simply outspeed the Landot and flip turn forcing it to eat a huge chunk of damage

252 Atk Choice Band Palafin Flip Turn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 216-254 (56.5 - 66.4%)

You also threaten to just straight up kill them with wave crash. If they switch you instead get momentum via a favorable switch in.

You’re leaving Intimidate out of these calculations, ZeroFin isn’t nearly that effective against Lando even with Band.
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Palafin Flip Turn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 144-170 (37.6 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Palafin Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 284-336 (74.3 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Not only does Wave Crash not kill in baby form, the approx. 30% chip combined with Rocky + a potential EP or EQ from lando will outright kill Palafin if not leave it vulnerable to any form of entry hazard.

 

[Firer4]

You’re leaving Intimidate out of these calculations, ZeroFin isn’t nearly that effective against Lando even with Band.
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Palafin Flip Turn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 144-170 (37.6 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Palafin Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 284-336 (74.3 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Not only does Wave Crash not kill in baby form, the approx. 30% chip combined with Rocky + a potential EP or EQ from lando will outright kill Palafin if not leave it vulnerable to any form of entry hazard.

In the example given Palafin switched in /got pivoted in on Landot as it was rocking, hence me leaving out the intimidate. Thats the only scenario in which it could possibly get two free turns as proclaimed

 

[Carl The Turtle]

In the example given Palafin switched in /got pivoted in on Landot as it was rocking, hence me leaving out the intimidate. Thats the only scenario in which it could possibly get two free turns as proclaimed

Apologies for not noticing this. However, if Lando already has rocks up, I still think clicking Flip puts you in a major disadvantage with Pala as the Lando can easily U-turn for momentum into your switch, along with the aforementioned helmet chip and rocks making it start at a disadvantage. Furthermore, clicking Wave Crash still has you keeping Palafin in on Zero Form and giving a turn for your opponents next mon, and will likely leave your Pala’s capability greatly diminished before even getting a chance to use Hero due to taking approx 53% in chip (36.9% recoil at max, 16.6% rocky) as well as rocks the next time it enters the field. I don't think these interactions with Band overall take away from the downsides of Zero giving your opponents free turns, especially since Band is considered the “weaker” set due to its exploitability.

 

[Firer4]

Apologies for not noticing this. However, if Lando already has rocks up, I still think clicking Flip puts you in a major disadvantage with Pala as the Lando can easily U-turn for momentum into your switch, along with the aforementioned helmet chip and rocks making it start at a disadvantage. Furthermore, clicking Wave Crash still has you keeping Palafin in on Zero Form and giving a turn for your opponents next mon, and will likely leave your Pala’s capability greatly diminished before even getting a chance to use Hero due to taking approx 53% in chip (36.9% recoil at max, 16.6% rocky) as well as rocks the next time it enters the field. I don't think these interactions with Band overall take away from the downsides of Zero giving your opponents free turns, especially since Band is considered the “weaker” set due to its exploitability.

Its without a doubt still a downside, I just think its less of a downside compared to bulk up sets. I wouldnt qualify losing that much hp on a Landot for example as a free turn. It can in certain matchups absolutely be worth it for the Landot to take the chip to keep momentum and get some rocky helmet damage but its its a worthwhile distinction when compared to Pala having zero agency and just switching in and out.

The cb sets also line up quite decently on turn 1 against a few common lead mons such as glimmora or iron treads.

 

[Jiro7]

a lot of those other mons are kinda fudging the calcs with some sort of stupid boost or other. waterpon has the mask, the paradoxes have proto active, gambit has supreme overlord, rilla has grassy terrain. palafin doesn't get any of that support and it's hitting that hard anyway

So we are just ignoring that Palafin has Zero to Hero form activated? Yes, you can still add Choice Band on top of it, just like you could with most of those mons in there - most are also boosting solely from their ability (except waterpon). I'd even argue that stuff like Rilla or Kingambit have easier activation conditions for their ability.

we should also note that make it rain and draco meteor aren't spammable, so those single-turn calcs aren't exactly as threatening as they appear compared to the others that can inflict that amount of damage multiple times in a row

Neither is Wave Crash, especially against the bulky mons you will be using it against, that probably have a lot of HP.

Is Staraptor broken?

 

[ianlazerbeem]

Its without a doubt still a downside, I just think its less of a downside compared to bulk up sets. I wouldnt qualify losing that much hp on a Landot for example as a free turn. It can in certain matchups absolutely be worth it for the Landot to take the chip to keep momentum and get some rocky helmet damage but its its a worthwhile distinction when compared to Pala having zero agency and just switching in and out.

The cb sets also line up quite decently on turn 1 against a few common lead mons such as glimmora or iron treads.

quite decently is right. Banded babyfin is an absurd momentum sink if it doesn't click flip turn, and that predictability is inherently exploitable, for example with your own u-turn. while I can see the chip that banded t1 flip turn does being somewhat valuable (although chipping a suicide lead is a short term win at best) you're in this situation A) slamming into glimmora and releasing a tspike, which constricts who you're pivoting into a great deal or forces you to take poison on a Mon, or B) on treads that means they get their rocks off. Either way lead band babyfin trades meager chip for playing from behind at the hazard game, and then has to come out later with nothing to protect itself from said hazards. Honestly given Bulk Up's item flexibility and tendency to give up less momentum particularly on HO I'm not convinced band pala lead actually "is fine compared to bulk up." With balance it's more workable and more splashable ig but still requires team support in hazard control, to say nothing of the way it kills itself with wave crash anyway

 

[vroooom]

i have to echo jack's sentiment here. a lot of your arguments are solid but the comparison of those calcs with palafin's should probably have a bit of context behind them:

• a lot of those other mons are kinda fudging the calcs with some sort of stupid boost or other. waterpon has the mask, the paradoxes have proto active, gambit has supreme overlord, rilla has grassy terrain. palafin doesn't get any of that support and it's hitting that hard anyway
• i haven't seen many non-banded palafins running wave crash. most of the ones i'm seeing that don't have band are running bulk up with jet punch as their only water stab, so i'm not sure how common that calc even is. even if it is more relevant than i think, that isn't the calc that everyone is afraid of
• out of the listed mons, gholdengo, kingambit, and waterpon are also considered by many to be a problem; walking wake was considered problematic enough to be suspected in the past and there were plenty of complaints about it long after the suspect and even some through dlc1; roaring moon was actually banned at one point and is still a fairly controversial mon (although not as controversial as it should be, i really think we should be looking at this guy harder); raging bolt has also been a hair's breadth away from a suspect several times. so to a lot of people, this reads less as "palafin hits less hard than these balanced things" and more "palafin has a damage output comparable to a bunch of mons that are also broken". i don't personally think every one of those things should be looked at, but i personally think ghold, gambit, waterpon and roaring moon are also banworthy, so this isn't really convincing me that palafin is fine, it's doing the opposite
• we should also note that make it rain and draco meteor aren't spammable, so those single-turn calcs aren't exactly as threatening as they appear compared to the others that can inflict that amount of damage multiple times in a row

outside of this, you do make some compelling points about wave crash's self-inflicted damage, band's general need to overcommit, and bulk up's lack of immediate breaking power, although i do think the utility and power it brings are more than enough to offset that. i still have to disagree with your conclusion, though

and for the record, i still think dlc1 manaphy was broken, don't @ me

yeah manaphy is probably better than palafin even now, It can iron defense take heart and sweep teams on webs. Palafin with bulk up needs 3 turns to do anything while manaphy is a better bulk and doesnt need the attack due to stored power. I think palafin is not broken and it's more of a condition mon if you play good. I actually have seen most people not using palafin in comparsion to great tusk/gambit and others.

 

[Firer4]

So we are just ignoring that Palafin has Zero to Hero form activated?

That is a drawback that should be discussed separately from the damage calcs of its hero form.

quite decently is right. Banded babyfin is an absurd momentum sink if it doesn't click flip turn, and that predictability is inherently exploitable, for example with your own u-turn. while I can see the chip that banded t1 flip turn does being somewhat valuable (although chipping a suicide lead is a short term win at best) you're in this situation A) slamming into glimmora and releasing a tspike, which constricts who you're pivoting into a great deal or forces you to take poison on a Mon, or B) on treads that means they get their rocks off. Either way lead band babyfin trades meager chip for playing from behind at the hazard game, and then has to come out later with nothing to protect itself from said hazards. Honestly given Bulk Up's item flexibility and tendency to give up less momentum particularly on HO I'm not convinced band pala lead actually "is fine compared to bulk up." With balance it's more workable and more splashable ig but still requires team support in hazard control, to say nothing of the way it kills itself with wave crash anyway

I mean youre gonna be trading their sash for rocks regardless of who you lead with, aside from some very specific answers, thats the whole point of suicide leads. And yeah the examples I gave were in a balance structure, where it offers wallbreaking and rk'ing / anti offense capabilities. It seems like much less of a concession than giving up a whole turn doing nothing on HO.

Having played a bit of bulk up pala in the last hour only made me appreciate how much easier the ability is to activate on flip turn sets

 

[JackRG]

Honestly I thought this test was silly but after lots of laddering and heavy consideration I will be voting DNB on palafin. Its no secret that SV OU heavily skews toward offense and palafins access to strong priority and amazing bulk makes it a great tool for balance teams to catch up to offense. This test was genuinely the first time I’ve had fun playing balance in like over a year and if we are going to allow other broken mons like kyurem, gambit, scor, moon, etc. then I think palafin is fair game. Obviously zama is already a really strong anti offense mon, but I think palafin taking a lot of the heat off zamazenta is nice. I am proud to admit I was wrong about this mon Dead by Daylight

 

[MAVERICK SHOOTERS]

I haven't made a OU discussion post in a long while since I mostly agreed with what was happening or people already pointed out what I would of said anyways but I think for this I should make a post on BAN PALAFIN side.

As person who likes to build teams I would always appreciate a healthy pokemon being added to the balance to give more variety to the teams,but this is no such case and is infact a unhealthy pokemon which also restricts the builder instead of expanding it.Yes a pokemon with 650 bst and stats as well rounded as that is indeed broken,admittedly it's baby form is indeed a 1 turn momentum sap which is enough to not make it a reliable mon for hyper offense but that doesn't mean much when you can run this pokemon amazingly on balance,I oftentimes just lead with it and it barely makes a point of difference with super bulky pivot mons to back up the loss of one turn.

To counter the point of some people thinking it's fine,with the new toy syndrome just dropping everyone is obviously gonna be as anti-palafin as they can be which is the optimal thing to do to farm free elo on ladder right now which will make its brokeness seem significantaly less,but as Pais already pointed out in his post which I mostly agree with is that this leads to significant weakness on the team which other pokemon can take advantage of,Palafin with it's base 160 attack stat and access to flip turns enables a lot of destructive cores.

Now onto the main thing I wanted to talk about,Palafin just has so many actually viable sets which aren't explored to their full potential or just unexplored,to name a few just of the top off my head which I can all see being completely viable and good are:
-bulk up tera fire (Can slot acrobatics on this)-Effective on webs and screens support if team can circumvent the 1-turn loss
-bulk invested tera fairy with wish support
-encore boots pivot set
-choice band
-Punching Glove/Mystic water
-agility on offense if they can fit it (Not good imo but a option)
-choice scarf tera fairy tera blast
-choice specs,don't forget this mon has viable 106 special attack and mons that are coming into this 160 atk demon are mostly gonna be physically defensive,hence specially much frailer(really effective on baiting those dragapult zap teams with just 1 ice beam to the face or nuking mola switch-in with tera normal boomburst-set I ran is boomburst,hydro pump,ice beam,flip turn/jet punch/focus blast/whatever)--not theorymonning as I already did this, it worked well too and count it as perfectly viable with it's surprise factor element.

I won't get into wave crash calcs as lily already mentioned you are just killing yourself with it and I personally don't think that's that a good set right now, though still really viable and all the player still always have to consider it when deciding their course of action. Most palafin's are only running jet punch and flip turn as their water stab which to be honest is all you really need,you don't need palafin to break through mons like alomomola, this pokemon functions as a really good pivot and you can melt through opposing teams with good pivot/breaker pairs like raging bolt and scarf kyurem.

Ogerpon-W while a really good counter to it,some prior damage on non cb sets and it's scared to come in or choice band cc to the face with rocks up is all you really need to handle this,on balance your team should already be super solid into this mon anyways so shouldn't be big of a trouble,also I doubt anyone deems palafin ogerpon 50/50 fests to be reliable.

TLDR; The 1 turn loss of baby form barely matters as balance can easily back up that loss with next to no difference,this mon just can't be not broken,it's access to the amount of sets it can run and its super high dmg stat while being able to attack on both physical and special with good bulk is bound to lead to this mon to be broken sooner or later,your perception may be skewed because of facing heavy anti palafin teams which forgo their weakness to rest due to new toy syndrome or you aren't using the right sets/teams to realize it's brokeness,just checking it 1 on 1 isn't the point as palafin also excels at being a amazing pivot mon to enable its partner be explosive,ogerpon-w 50-50s aren't consistent,point is it is and will be broken. SV OU was in a really amazing state recently with a lot of creativity and sets possible along with lot of stability in the tier and adding this mon to the tier makes it significantly worse,please don't ruin it with unabanning this mon,I also implore rest of ban side to make posts as well.

 

[JackRG]

SV OU was in a really amazing state recently with a lot of creativity and sets possible along with lot of stability in the tier and adding this mon to the tier makes it significantly worse,please don't ruin it with unabanning this mon,I also implore rest of ban side to make posts as well.

saying it was in a really amazing state is well uh....a bit of a stretch, even the metagames defenders purely say it is decent. I don't see how this mon is more broken then kyurem, gambit, wellspring, etc. BU sets can be rough but honestly they are a lot less irritating to balance than wellspring is, and priority that actually threatens stuff like gambit is sorely needed rn. Honestly, just unban this and get rid of wellspring and balance might actually be on par with offense. Kyurem is annoying for balance too but I think if we make said changes balance with have significantly more breathing room to build around it.

 

[June Heat]

saying it was in a really amazing state is well uh....a bit of a stretch, even the metagames defenders purely say it is decent. I don't see how this mon is more broken then kyurem, gambit, wellspring, etc. BU sets can be rough but honestly they are a lot less irritating to balance than wellspring is, and priority that actually threatens stuff like gambit is sorely needed rn. Honestly, just unban this and get rid of wellspring and balance might actually be on par with offense. Kyurem is annoying for balance too but I think if we make said changes balance with have significantly more breathing room to build around it.

Why would you unban Palafin then ban one of its biggest countermeasure? This is the problem I see when bring in more incredibly powerful Pokemon with the idea the already contentiously powerful Pokemon in the tier will "balance" it. All you're doing is adding more shoe string to an already fragile structure. Some may scoff at "broken checks broken" as a term, but it perfectly describes SV OU. If we unban Palafin I'm of the opinion that nothing else should be banned with Tera being the only avenue left for tinkering with the tier's power.

 

[JackRG]

Why would you unban Palafin then ban one of its biggest countermeasure? This is the problem I see when bring in more incredibly powerful Pokemon with the idea the already contentiously powerful Pokemon in the tier will "balance" it. All you're doing is adding more shoe string to an already fragile structure. Some may scoff at "broken checks broken" as a term, but it perfectly describes SV OU. If we unban Palafin I'm of the opinion that nothing else should be banned with Tera being the only avenue left for tinkering with the tier's power.

I don't think wellspring is really a great palafin check. Gets nuked by the previously mentioned cb close combat and with the combination of tera and bulk up its also a unreliable check to those as well. The reason myself and many others want wellspring banned is because its a incredibly unhealthy prescence with it how it can run through balance and fat after a single SD. It has also never received a proper test.

 

[June Heat]

I don't think wellspring is really a great palafin check. Gets nuked by the previously mentioned cb close combat and with the combination of tera and bulk up its also a unreliable check to those as well. The reason myself and many others want wellspring banned is because its a incredibly unhealthy prescence with it how it can run through balance and fat after a single SD. It has also never received a proper test.

Not arguing about the merits of a Ogerpon-W suspect, and whether or not it's banworthy. I just said in the hypothetical world where the community decides for a Palafin unban Ogerpon-W, and many other Pokemon should not be looked at for testing because of the delicate nature of SV OU.

Ogerpon-W is one of Offense's greatest tools against Palafin to say otherwise is nonsense. Even going by the logic that Palafin can just nuke Ogerpon-W out of existence with a well predicted/timed Tera, CC, or Acrobatics is probably more so evidence of Palafin being unhealthy and ban worthy. In fact it's very similar to how Ogerpon-W can run coverage moves to get past her checks as well, and you consider that banworthy so why is Palafin alright when it can do the exact same thing? All in all I don't think what SV OU needs right now is another monster threat broken or not.

 

[RainebowValiant]

SV OU playerbase: this meta is too offensive and has too many brokens it sucks!!

Also SV OU playerbase: ok let's add another offensive broken building check

 

[Carl The Turtle]

SV OU playerbase: this meta is too offensive and has too many brokens it sucks!!

Also SV OU playerbase: ok let's add another offensive broken building check

It’s really not that much of a stumper why people would advocate for a bulkier mon with priority and defense boosting + potential longevity with draining moves in an offensive meta. Like, regardless of whether or not you think Pala is broken, presenting it as just a something you have to check in builder is disingenuous, especially if it does turn out to be balanced.

 

[RainebowValiant]

It’s really not that much of a stumper why people would advocate for a bulkier mon with priority and defense boosting + potential longevity with draining moves in an offensive meta. Like, regardless of whether or not you think Pala is broken, presenting it as just a something you have to check in builder is disingenuous, especially if it does turn out to be balanced.

Owl city reference, opinion discarded /j

I don't think palafin is a "bulkier mon" tbh. I think it's yet another sweeper and wallbreaker in the same vein as Waterpon and Kyurem that you now have to have a mandatory check to on balance. Yet another balance building check to restrict fatter styles even more. I don't think we need that.

To quote the GOAT Blazeking, "i think the tier needs changes but those changes should be lowering the power level instead of adding more bs"

 

[JackRG]

Owl city reference, opinion discarded /j

I don't think palafin is a "bulkier mon" tbh. I think it's yet another sweeper and wallbreaker in the same vein as Waterpon and Kyurem that you now have to have a mandatory check to on balance. Yet another balance building check to restrict fatter styles even more. I don't think we need that.

To quote the GOAT Blazeking, "i think the tier needs changes but those changes should be lowering the power level instead of adding more bs"

even if its broken palafin might be one of the most anti bs mons this gen. Balance also already has to prep a lot for wellspring which shares many of its checks with palafin.

 

[RainebowValiant]

even if its broken palafin might be one of the most anti bs mons this gen. Balance also already has to prep a lot for wellspring which shares many of its checks with palafin.

Ehhhh not as much as ppl say imo. The standard Tera dragon/Grass corv or scor dont work as well because ice punch exists, and zama can get worn down hard by balloon acrobatics sheist (yes this set exists duckular is the goat)

 

[JackRG]

Ehhhh not as much as ppl say imo. The standard Tera dragon/Grass corv or scor dont work as well because ice punch exists, and zama can get worn down hard by balloon acrobatics sheist (yes this set exists duckular is the goat)

252+ Atk Choice Band Palafin Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tera Dragon Corviknight: 126-150 (31.5 - 37.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
even cb adamant ice punch is not really threatening tera dragon/grass corv, and scor doesn't run those tera types + we need more mons on balance that can threaten scor anyways