np: USUM UU Stage 6.1 - Échame La Culpa (Breloom unbanned, Buzzwole remains BL)

[DurzaOffTopic]

Yes, those mons are good for team mates, but does having teammates make a mon unhealthy on their own? You're basically saying that mega bro is unhealthy to the tier because we have mons that are good with it. Besides, "Everything is going to have it's checks" is pretty much the reason to why Mega Bro isn't like other current BL mons, like Buzzwole and Staraptor. Not everything is going to have it's checks. And unlike, for example, Azumarill that can 2ohko everything on the tier bar Tentacruel with coverage moves, Mega Bro suffers from 4mss, which means that in order to carry a third move, it is most likely going to lose to mons that have good def/spdef.

First off, yes. Slowbro gets the team support that it needs to make it broken. There is a precedent for this. ORAS OU decided that Mega Sableye was broken at the end of Gen 6 and banned it. This gen, they banned Dugtrio and realized that the combination of Dugtrio + Mega Sableye was what made the metagame broken and thats why there were calls to unban Mega Sableye and retroactively ban Duggy from ORAS OU. In a metagame with Dugtrio, Mega Sableye was considered broken. In a metagame without it, it was fine. Same principle applies here with Mega Slowbro. Also Tentacruel is 2HKO'd by Azumaril Knock Off.
Next, isn't the sheer unpredictability of Mega Slowbro what makes it so dangerous? It can be running any set, so how can you switch it in reliably. If you guess the set wrong it can setup and then you lose the game.]

Breloom has a chance on 1v1ing it with Spore on the 1st turn, then hitting it with Bullet Seed on the following 2 turns (i'm assuming a sleep roll here, though)

So your idea of a check is one that depends that there is nothing already put to sleep and that if there isn't that there isn't a 1 turn sleep? Sounds like a pretty terrible check to me.

That part is true. Latias is the only cm user who has recovery in roost, but aside from her, everything else lacks it. However, my point there was to show that there is no CM user right now that has a way of dealing with toxic aside from having cleric teammates.

Whats the issue with relying on teammates to deal with its solitary weakness?

You didn't understand what I meant in my post. I simply showed what mons can check *each* Slowbro Mega set. Sure, there aren't MANY things that can check it, but there aren't MANY things that can check any S rank/some A rank mons either, and they aren't unhealthy for the tier. (with the exception of Azumarill imo, but Azumarill isn't the point of the discussion here) I believe a suspect test can show whether Slowbro Mega is too much for the tier or not.

Who cares that *this* Pokemon checks one set and another Pokemon checks another? Not only are there not very many things that check Mega Slowbro period, I can't think of anything that can counter all of Mega Slowbro's possible sets. For the S and A ranked mons, there are dedicated checks or counters that will beat every conventional version of the Pokemon, not reliant of the set. Mega Slowbro would undoubtably be too much for the tier to handle and I don't condone any form of suspect test or unban.

 

[TheCtes]

Knock off is super effective and its the most common/used Dark-type physical attack in the game.

So what? Its only the most used because it can remove items normally. Mega Slowbro has four other weaknesses and a special defense stat that is less than half its physical defense, no one would use knock off on it. Although I'm not opposed to finding out, I do agree it's probablt unhealthy. Your have some great arguments, but this one means nothing.

 

[tmacbalanced]

Yes, those mons are good for team mates, but does having teammates make a mon unhealthy on their own? You're basically saying that mega bro is unhealthy to the tier because we have mons that are good with it. Besides, "Everything is going to have it's checks" is pretty much the reason to why Mega Bro isn't like other current BL mons, like Buzzwole and Staraptor. Not everything is going to have it's checks. And unlike, for example, Azumarill that can 2ohko everything on the tier bar Tentacruel with coverage moves, Mega Bro suffers from 4mss, which means that in order to carry a third move, it is most likely going to lose to mons that have good def/spdef.

It can actually. Take for instance Drizzle Politoed, Drought Ninetales, and Aurora Veil A-Ninetales. Drizzle Politoed isn't 1 v 6 any teams, neither is Drought Ninetales or Aurora Veil A-Ninetales. And yes, mons do have checks, but it depends on what a mon is able to do the tier as a whole. Durza is basically saying Mega Slowbro can take on too much of the meta with just one set, and basically patch up any holes with team mates, making the team really difficult to beat and overcentralizing for the meta. Also, Mega Bro can lure mons with it's vast movepool and great stats to allow other mons to sweep but, it doesn't just stop there, it's also putting in all kinds of work throughout the game; making it more than just a lure. I don't think it suffers from 4MSS; it pretty much decides what it wants to beat in favor of what the team needs.

So what? Its only the most used because it can remove items normally. Mega Slowbro has four other weaknesses and a special defense stat that is less than half its physical defense, no one would use knock off on it. Although I'm not opposed to finding out, I do agree it's probablt unhealthy. Your have some great arguments, but this one means nothing.

It's the fact that you can't rely on dark physical attackers to beat M-Bro. True, we have omnipresent Scizor, M-Bee, Breloom, and a few others that hit it for SE damage on the physical side BUT, they can't just come in on M-Bro because they can get scald burned or get hit with SE coverage so, they have to double in or revenge kill. Also, it's special defense is pretty decent, after one calm mind it can tank hits really well from special attackers.

 

[TheCtes]

It's the fact that you can't rely on dark physical attackers to beat M-Bro. True, we have omnipresent Scizor, M-Bee, Breloom, and a few others that hit it for SE damage on the physical side BUT, they can't just come in on M-Bro because they can get scald burned or get hit with SE coverage so, they have to double in or revenge kill. Also, it's special defense is pretty decent, after one calm mind it can tank hits really well from special attackers.

I never disagreed with any of that. I'm just saying knock off being useless is not the right argument. All you just said would just as accurate if knock off was useful.

 

[DiscoDucky]

Fucking feels bad man that we lost Mamoswine because the "Ambipom complex".

 

[Vengeance417]

Fucking feels bad man that we lost Mamoswine because the "Ambipom complex".

To be fair, Mamoswine's pretty good in OU and was already seeing a bit of usage before Pokeaim had any input, given its ability to dismantle Lando-T, Toxapex, Magearna, Tapu Bulu, and Heatran by itself and all that. Ambipom was a different story.

 

[gum]

Yeah it's decently good in OU but it wasn't (probably) going to rise if Pokeaim's fans didn't spam it on ladd. Now everything that Mamoswine forced out/RK is just going to be better. (Breloom, Gliscor, Latias). It's also a good Wallbreaker so losing it is pretty unfortunate tbh.

Btw, sorry for my mediocre english and correct me if I say something dumb, it's my first post.

 

[brodudeguy1]

I think the influence that pokefagaim is having on tiers is becoming a problem. He is basically using his popularity to influence people to use certain pokemon, resulting in a pokemon of his choice moving up or down a tier. Mamoswine's usage went from <2% in January to >5% in February, mainly because of his Mamoswine TTT series. Back when he was convincing people to use ambipom, it was all fun and games, since ambipom wasnt that popular (no one plays nu anyway). Influencing mamoswine's tier, on the other hand, is a problem. UU has unfairly lost one of its top wall-breakers due to influence of 1 person. For me specifically, mamoswine was my go-to wallbreaker for my teams that couldnt break gliscor / muk / amoongus core. I see this core becoming quite dominant because of mamoswine. Now I have to spend all this time rearranging my teams and find a new way to break gliscor/muk/amoongus. The best way to solve this problem is to base teiring on usage by the top 200 players of the tier. This weeds out all the bad players that are using mamoswine just because they are pokeaim fans. If they did this, mamoswine would NOT have risen. >1825 usage was only 3.05%. Because the top 200 players of the tier understand the meta much better than the rest of the ladder, mamoswine clearly did NOT deserve to rise.

 

[MaahirMomtaz12]

UU players will remain triggered for years to come

 

[Vengeance417]

Because the top 200 players of the tier understand the meta much better than the rest of the ladder, mamoswine clearly did NOT deserve to rise.

So what are you suggesting, then? Having only the usage of the high ladder count towards rises and falls of mons? That sounds terrible.

 

[earl]

So what are you suggesting, then? Having only the usage of the high ladder count towards rises and falls of mons? That sounds terrible.

Why does it sounds terrible? If anything it reflects the actual viability of Pokémon more

 

[Vengeance417]

Why does it sounds terrible? If anything it reflects the actual viability of Pokémon more

Because that alienates a vast majority of other players who won't be able to have any sort of input to the tiering process, especially for those who aren't "memeing" and playing seriously, and you'll have a specific group of people making decisions for the rest of the tier. They won't be any different to Pokeaim regardless of intent.

 

[earl]

Because that alienates a vast majority of other players who won't be able to have any sort of input to the tiering process, especially for those who aren't "memeing" and playing seriously, and you'll have a specific group of people making decisions for the rest of the tier. They won't be any different to Pokeaim regardless of intent.

I doubt the top ladder players would be colluding in any way + Idk about you but I don’t play to give tiering input, and if I did I would ladder and get good enough to reach that ladder level to be able to input. Also there’s still quite a few people at the top, this isn’t one dude artificially inflating usage these are the players at the top using the best Pokemon and really tiering based on viability.

 

[Freeroamer]

Why do people act like tiers are some holy order that must be protected at all costs? Aim and his followers were just doing what we should all do when we play this game, which is to have some fun and they did it by using an underrated Pokémon in a higher tier. The Pokémon wasn’t downright unviable to the point where the sole purpose was to rip off a lower tier of a valuable mon, so I really don’t see the need for people to be so annoyed about this. Mamoswine was decent here yes but it by no means held UU together, and the old argument applies that if you really like using the Pokémon that much, go and use it in OU! No point getting upset by things that arent particularly important or that you can’t change.

 

[Scuba Diver]

I genuinely don’t think there’s any real problem, people just love to complain. There was a birdspam OU team with Azelf that was highly spammed during SM OU that brought Azelf into the tier. Where were all these complaints then? Should someone capable of making a well written RMT have “so much influence” over tiering and “take” Azelf from the the tier?? Oh wait, nobody cared then and nobody should care now because it’s fundamentally the same thing.

 

[gum]

I genuinely don’t think there’s any real problem, people just love to complain. There was a birdspam OU team with Azelf that was highly spammed during SM OU that brought Azelf into the tier. Where were all these complaints then? Should someone capable of making a well written RMT have “so much influence” over tiering and “take” Azelf from the the tier?? Oh wait, nobody cared then and nobody should care now because it’s fundamentally the same thing.

The thing is that Azelf and Mamo don't have the same niche. Azelf is a Suicide Lead for Hyper Offense and there's a lot of Stealth Rock rocker in UU that provide way more than Stealth Rock and then simply explode. It's basically only used on Hyper Offense. Mamo, on the other hand, is a great balance breaker that can also RK dangerous threat/pressure them. Mamo is an essential part of the UU tier and I think that's why people are so mad about it being gone (I'm one of these person don't kill me pls). Azelf, if it goes, I don't think a lot of person will care because of its impact on the tier. With Mamo gone some top tier threat are just going to be harder to deal with Gliscor smh. But I kinda agree with the fact that if you want to use a Pokemon in a tier, just use it. But the problem is that if one person use it, there's no problem. But let's say an entire fan base just spam it on ladder. Again, I'm not against it but changes like this can be unhealty to a tier (Mamo gone is kinda unhealty imo).

 

[Scuba Diver]

The thing is that Azelf and Mamo don't have the same niche. Azelf is a Suicide Lead for Hyper Offense and there's a lot of Stealth Rock rocker in UU that provide way more than Stealth Rock and then simply explode. It's basically only used on Hyper Offense. Mamo, on the other hand, is a great balance breaker that can also RK dangerous threat/pressure them. Mamo is an essential part of the UU tier and I think that's why people are so mad about it being gone (I'm one of these person don't kill me pls). Azelf, if it goes, I don't think a lot of person will care because of its impact on the tier. With Mamo gone some top tier threat are just going to be harder to deal with Gliscor smh. But I kinda agree with the fact that if you want to use a Pokemon in a tier, just use it. But the problem is that if one person use it, there's no problem. But let's say an entire fan base just spam it on ladder. Again, I'm not against it but changes like this can be unhealty to a tier (Mamo gone is kinda unhealty imo).

Their niche has nothing to do with this. What I'm getting at is that people have "gamed" the rankings well before aim in the form of flashy RMTs with random lower tier shit (if you can write well enough and put 1900+ in the title you too can inflate a mons use or get it on the VR, I promise). If the gist of the argument is Youtube = bad and Smogon= good then I'd appreciate someone just say that. For better or worse that's how usage tiering works, why is UU using Ambipom or OU using Mamo any less legitimate than the endless stream of RU users using Donphan? If aim said tomorrow RU needed to stop using Donphan and it finally, finally fell to NU, is that going to be a problem? Is the community only allowed to run terrible, unoptimal stuff when it's of our own accord? Useage is useage is useage.

 

[Vengeance417]

Maybe people just need to start being more creative with their team building and look into other options?

 

[gum]

Their niche has nothing to do with this. What I'm getting at is that people have "gamed" the rankings well before aim in the form of flashy RMTs with random lower tier shit (if you can write well enough and put 1900+ in the title you too can inflate a mons use or get it on the VR, I promise). If the gist of the argument is Youtube = bad and Smogon= good then I'd appreciate someone just say that. For better or worse that's how usage tiering works, why is UU using Ambipom or OU using Mamo any less legitimate than the endless stream of RU users using Donphan? If aim said tomorrow RU needed to stop using Donphan and it finally, finally fell to NU, is that going to be a problem? Is the community only allowed to run terrible, unoptimal stuff when it's of our own accord? Useage is useage is useage.

Sorry, I was just trying to explain why people are complaining about Mamo gone and why people didn't complain when Azelf rose in usage, my bad.
Also, I know that some Pokemon rose because of any kind of reason (The Flying Spam RMT that was quit popular back in August/Spetember and made Azelf go to OU) Mamo is a great mon in OU, I agree but I still think manipulation of a Pokemon's usage stats is something pretty bad but we can't really help it. Just my opinion.

 

[DiscoDucky]

Understandably, Mamoswine is getting better as Tapu Koko is becoming more and more popular. However, a 2% and 5% usage jump doesn't mean it's increasing in usage solely based on its increased viability.

 

[Deleted User 400951]

Understandably, Mamoswine is getting better as Tapu Koko is becoming more and more popular. However, a 2% and 5% usage jump doesn't mean it's increasing in usage solely based on its increased viability.

while i do agree that it was quite a jump, do note that Mamo was also rising in usage due to its popularity in SPL as one of the few mons that can truly 6-0 any type of stall. It would've ended up rising regardless most likely.

That being said, with Mamo going I'm even more worried about stall down here. As it is, stall is becoming increasingly popular and losing an incredible tool against it hurts. I doubt it'll become a broken play style - we have many more breakers more than capable of putting in work such as Heracross and Breloom - but what does this mean for stall in UU?

Also, I'd like to say that Mega Slowbro is more likely than not going to be incredibly unhealthy and should not be unbanned. If it dropped, then stall would genuinely become a broken play style as BroBliss would be nigh unbreakable. Someone else brought this up earlier, but their post seems to have been overlooked. The only reliable stall breaker would be Heracross with Megahorn (suboptimal otherwise) and Breloom with god predicts. Literally everything else fails without even more insane prediction that turns a lot of games into either MU based wins or 50-50s. I'm not seeing Mega Bro as a healthy addition to UU.

 

[DiscoDucky]

while i do agree that it was quite a jump, do note that Mamo was also rising in usage due to its popularity in SPL as one of the few mons that can truly 6-0 any type of stall. It would've ended up rising regardless most likely.

That being said, with Mamo going I'm even more worried about stall down here. As it is, stall is becoming increasingly popular and losing an incredible tool against it hurts. I doubt it'll become a broken play style - we have many more breakers more than capable of putting in work such as Heracross - but what does this mean for stall in UU?

Historically speaking, Pokemon that see increase in usage in Smogon tournaments tend increase in usage really slowly after the trend catches on because the ladder (especially at 1695, the official usage stats for tier movement) doesn't necessarily reflect the hyper-specialized environment of the competitive scene (i.e. counter-building against playstyles, identifying opponent's comfort Pokemon picks).

 

[mertyville]

I don't really the problem when looking at it long term. The tier changes happen every 3 month, don't they? If Mamoswine really isn't OU material, it will fall soon or later.
What is the point of a usage-based tiering system when we are artificially make changes of it anyways?

 

[TheCtes]

Sorry about the one liner, but i want to clarify that Azelf never rose to OU in gen 7. Though it did come close when birdspam was at its peak, UU never lost it.

 

[Pearl]

Sorry about the one liner, but i want to clarify that Azelf never rose to OU in gen 7. Though it did come close when birdspam was at its peak, UU never lost it.

He probably meant ORAS. We lost Azelf due to the popularity of Bird Spam in the last iteration of Gen 6 OLT, which got spammed to death by xtrashine and Empo.

With that said, I'd like to request you to stop this discussion or at least tone it down a little. Bringing up how Mamoswine influenced the tier and how it's going to be missed is /OK/, but this is not the place to debate about the system Smogon as a whole adopted for quick drops/rises/tier shifts. I'm currently working on a longer post to address other replies in this thread (mostly related to retest suggestions and potential suspect tests), but this seemed urgent enough to justify posting