np: USUM UU Stage 6 - Chanel (Ninetales-Alola banned, see post 19)

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Hogg

grubbing in the ashes
is a Tournament Directoris a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
UU & Tour Head
#1

waiting is not easy.jpg

After much anticipation, tier shifts are finally here! These shifts saw only one notable departure but a whole slew of new Pokemon to visit our tier:

  • Kingdra moved from OU to UU
  • Stakataka moved from OU to UU
  • Marowak-Alola moved from OU to UU
  • Lycanroc-Dusk moved from OU to UU
  • Ninetales-Alola moved from OU to UU
  • Gengar moved from OU to UU
  • Rotom-Wash moved from UU to OU
(In addition, Charizard-Mega-Y, Manaphy and Dragonite also fell to UU, though they were previously banned and hence become BL.)

With some major changes afoot, we will continue to use the modified tiering approach mentioned in the last NP thread, relying on council votes to quickly review and address any serious issues with the tier. The council will remain the same as it was previously. Please use this thread to discuss the current metagame and the new changes. However, please keep the blind speculation to a minimum.



Enjoy!
 

Sage

Properly Beautiful
is a Pre-Contributor
#2
Time for some fiery hot takes on how the new shifts are gonna affect the meta. This post will probably be invalidated soon by bans or new meta trends but it's a good idea to give people some sort of idea of how the new Pokemon are gonna affect our beloved tier going in. So without further ado, in order of most to least busted:


ninetales-alola.gif
S with Veil, D without

#VanBeil. Aurora Veil was already broken before we got Ninetales, now it's even worse. What previously was accomplished through Aurorus and Sandslash-A together, is now compressed into one slot. This frees up Veil teams to gain either more offensive fire power, or better patch up defensive weaknesses that could be found when you are forced to run two Ice types to activate Veil. Ninetales has the same tricks Aurorus has such as Freeze Dry and Encore, a Dragon immunity to potentially set up Veil multiple times, as well as other options like Hypnosis to annoy some offensive mons and allow for even more free setup. Please no. Veil also lost one of its best checks in Rotom Wash, making my opinion to ban it even stronger. Without Veil, it's a weak Nasty Plot Sweeper 4x weak to the best priority in the tier, that also has a Rocks weakness and poor bulk. No thanks.

Stakataka.gif
A+ or Beyond

The wall has been freed. Stakataka is insanely strong, packing the strongest Gyro Ball in the game, Trick Room to heavily fuck with offense, and a number of Z-options to break through traditional checks. Beast Boost, in combination with lowering defense IVs, allows it to quickly snowball with attack raises and sweep through a team in the blink of an eye. It can even opt to keep its IVs intact and use defense EVs to beat traditonal checks by stopping priority from the likes of Azumarill's Aqua Jet and Infernape's Mach Punch. While Trick Room is definitely biggest threat to look our for, a Choice Band set can wallop walls looking to switch in on the Trick Room turn. This would give Staka a way to beat some of it's best answers, fat mons. The final major boon for the Wall can be found in it's massive defense, living things it really shouldn't have a way to live at full.

Stakataka is undoubtedly a monster threat sure to affect the meta, but it's not without answers. It struggles to break through the bulkiest pokemon in the tier. Hippowdon is probably our best answer, with a physically defensive set living any hit with ease, then recovering or killing with Earthquake. Other Pokemon such as Suicune, Quagsire, Mega Aggron, and Mega Steelix will also be solid switch ins. It's main niche will lie in destroying some Offense builds with the Trick Room set, as it has limited means to deal with it's hard counters, something I believe could allow it to stay UU.

marowak-alola.gif
A- to B+

Sei's boy has come. The Wak hits very hard, has a wide array of sets and coverage options, as well as a decent defensive typing with 3 potential immunities. Holding it back are a nasty Stealth Rock weakness, a turtle-like 45 speed, and it's lack of reliable recovery, needing Thick Club to have offensive presence. One Alowak's best uses, as a Scizor check, is hard to pull off because Scir can U-turn, and Marowak takes hazard damage every time it comes in. Hydreigon will also be a prominent offensive answer, taking most of its hits with ease, barring the rare Low Kick or Focus Punch. Defensive answers include Hippowdon (again!),

A Swords Dance set will threaten fat balance heavily, while stall could potentially have uses for a defensive Pain Split set with Leftovers and Will - O Wisp, giving a Volt Switch immunity without typical Ground weaknesses. A Rocks weakness and exploitable typing will prevent it from rising up top with the S and A+ ranks though.

gengar.gif
B+ to B

The former OU titan has dropped once again. Unfortunately, our meta is not very kind to it. Gengar faces a lot of Pokemon it just doesn't have many answers for. Alolan Muk is going to wreck it no matter what, with the most Gengar can do is either running Sub Disable to try and escape Pursuit, or Tricking it a Choice Scarf to cripple it for the rest of the match. Gengar can struggle to break Special Walls like Blissey and Umbreon, but it does have Pain Split and the aforementioned Trick. I think it definitely could have some neat techs though, Gengar still boasts massive coverage akin to Nihilego, a great speed tier, and a wide variety of sets. Scarf sets alone can run annoying things like Trick and Destiny Bond, while Pain Split, Substitute, Disablem and Toxic can really mess with some its checks, allowing team mates to break them more easily. You could also run potential Z-move lures, I haven't really explored this yet though, perhaps Fairium Dazzling Gleam?

kingdra.gif
C to C-

Will definitely have a niche as a Rain sweeper, which as an archetype looks somewhat better now? Expect a rise for the King if Mega Swampert ever drops again. Other than Rain, does not have a niche that UU requires. Will probably drop further than UU, but definitely usable in its niche.

lycanroc-dusk.gif
Lycanroc Dusk

If you want a Tough Claws Rock type, use Mega Aerodactyl. If you want a physical priority sweeper, use Scizor, Azumarill, Lucario, or any other god damn Pokemon in this tier. This thing sucks, it's only unique trait is Accelerock which isn't even worth ranking it. Other priority options will provide so much more to the table than this will.

Now that we've dealt with the drops, we gotta talk about Rotom-Wash, who departed to the realms of OU. This significantly affects our meta, many Pokemon found themselves dropping. I'm too lazy to effort for the stuff that was already in the tier, so i'm just gonna list some stuff that likes Rotom leaving and the new drops coming in, as well as some that don't like the changes.

Trending Up: Hippowdon, Mega Pidgeot, Alolan Muk, Swampert, Hydreigon, Mamoswine

Hippowdon gains the most, countering the strongest two non Ninetales drops, and heavily appreciating Rotom's departure, which gained free switch ins other than Toxic on Hippo. Bird Jesus is free to spam Hurricane once more, with other premier Electrics Mega Manectric and Raikou lacking recovery. Hydreigon and Mamoswine do a good job of offensively checking new drops, while the latter also gains from Rotom leaving. Alolan Muk traps our new influx of ghosts, while Swampert doesn't have to worry about taking Hydro Pumps from Rotom, regaining its niche as an Electric check from Seismitoad.

Trending Down: Seismitoad, Aurorus / Alolan Sandslash, Mega Sceptile, Volt Turn

Seismitoad loses it's primary usage as a Rotom-W hard stop. It still has a small niche as a role compression for a Water immunity and a Stealth Rocker. Veil teams will now run Alolatales, it was (not) fun while it lasted, Aurorus and Sandslash-A. Mega Sceptile will still definitely be a threat, but it was a huge cuck to Rotom-W, and a nuisance to Volt Turn as a whole, an archetype that loses a bit of its luster without the washing machine.

I'm glad we can all finally get to shake things up a bit in the meta! Let's do our best to explore it to the fullest.
 
#3
Time for some fiery hot takes on how the new shifts are gonna affect the meta. This post will probably be invalidated soon by bans or new meta trends but it's a good idea to give people some sort of idea of how the new Pokemon are gonna affect our beloved tier going in. So without further ado, in order of most to least busted:


View attachment 96827
S with Veil, D without

#VanBeil. Aurora Veil was already broken before we got Ninetales, now it's even worse. What previously was accomplished through Aurorus and Sandslash-A together, is now compressed into one slot. This frees up Veil teams to gain either more offensive fire power, or better patch up defensive weaknesses that could be found when you are forced to run two Ice types to activate Veil. Ninetales has the same tricks Aurorus has such as Freeze Dry and Encore, a Dragon immunity to potentially set up Veil multiple times, as well as other options like Hypnosis to annoy some offensive mons and allow for even more free setup. Please no. Veil also lost one of its best checks in Rotom Wash, making my opinion to ban it even stronger. Without Veil, it's a weak Nasty Plot Sweeper 4x weak to the best priority in the tier, that also has a Rocks weakness and poor bulk. No thanks.

View attachment 96829
A+ or Beyond

The wall has been freed. Stakataka is insanely strong, packing the strongest Gyro Ball in the game, Trick Room to heavily fuck with offense, and a number of Z-options to break through traditional checks. Beast Boost, in combination with lowering defense IVs, allows it to quickly snowball with attack raises and sweep through a team in the blink of an eye. It can even opt to keep its IVs intact and use defense EVs to beat traditonal checks by stopping priority from the likes of Azumarill's Aqua Jet and Infernape's Mach Punch. While Trick Room is definitely biggest threat to look our for, a Choice Band set can wallop walls looking to switch in on the Trick Room turn. This would give Staka a way to beat some of it's best answers, fat mons. The final major boon for the Wall can be found in it's massive defense, living things it really shouldn't have a way to live at full.

Stakataka is undoubtedly a monster threat sure to affect the meta, but it's not without answers. It struggles to break through the bulkiest pokemon in the tier. Hippowdon is probably our best answer, with a physically defensive set living any hit with ease, then recovering or killing with Earthquake. Other Pokemon such as Suicune, Quagsire, Mega Aggron, and Mega Steelix will also be solid switch ins. It's main niche will lie in destroying some Offense builds with the Trick Room set, as it has limited means to deal with it's hard counters, something I believe could allow it to stay UU.

View attachment 96828
A- to B+

Sei's boy has come. The Wak hits very hard, has a wide array of sets and coverage options, as well as a decent defensive typing with 3 potential immunities. Holding it back are a nasty Stealth Rock weakness, a turtle-like 45 speed, and it's lack of reliable recovery, needing Thick Club to have offensive presence. One Alowak's best uses, as a Scizor check, is hard to pull off because Scir can U-turn, and Marowak takes hazard damage every time it comes in. Hydreigon will also be a prominent offensive answer, taking most of its hits with ease, barring the rare Low Kick or Focus Punch. Defensive answers include Hippowdon (again!),

A Swords Dance set will threaten fat balance heavily, while stall could potentially have uses for a defensive Pain Split set with Leftovers and Will - O Wisp, giving a Volt Switch immunity without typical Ground weaknesses. A Rocks weakness and exploitable typing will prevent it from rising up top with the S and A+ ranks though.

View attachment 96830
B+ to B

The former OU titan has dropped once again. Unfortunately, our meta is not very kind to it. Gengar faces a lot of Pokemon it just doesn't have many answers for. Alolan Muk is going to wreck it no matter what, with the most Gengar can do is either running Sub Disable to try and escape Pursuit, or Tricking it a Choice Scarf to cripple it for the rest of the match. Gengar can struggle to break Special Walls like Blissey and Umbreon, but it does have Pain Split and the aforementioned Trick. I think it definitely could have some neat techs though, Gengar still boasts massive coverage akin to Nihilego, a great speed tier, and a wide variety of sets. Scarf sets alone can run annoying things like Trick and Destiny Bond, while Pain Split, Substitute, Disablem and Toxic can really mess with some its checks, allowing team mates to break them more easily. You could also run potential Z-move lures, I haven't really explored this yet though, perhaps Fairium Dazzling Gleam?

View attachment 96831
C to C-

Will definitely have a niche as a Rain sweeper, which as an archetype looks somewhat better now? Expect a rise for the King if Mega Swampert ever drops again. Other than Rain, does not have a niche that UU requires. Will probably drop further than UU, but definitely usable in its niche.

View attachment 96832
Lycanroc Dusk

If you want a Tough Claws Rock type, use Mega Aerodactyl. If you want a physical priority sweeper, use Scizor, Azumarill, Lucario, or any other god damn Pokemon in this tier. This thing sucks, it's only unique trait is Accelerock which isn't even worth ranking it. Other priority options will provide so much more to the table than this will.

Now that we've dealt with the drops, we gotta talk about Rotom-Wash, who departed to the realms of OU. This significantly affects our meta, many Pokemon found themselves dropping. I'm too lazy to effort for the stuff that was already in the tier, so i'm just gonna list some stuff that likes Rotom leaving and the new drops coming in, as well as some that don't like the changes.

Trending Up: Hippowdon, Mega Pidgeot, Alolan Muk, Swampert, Hydreigon, Mamoswine

Hippowdon gains the most, countering the strongest two non Ninetales drops, and heavily appreciating Rotom's departure, which gained free switch ins other than Toxic on Hippo. Bird Jesus is free to spam Hurricane once more, with other premier Electrics Mega Manectric and Raikou lacking recovery. Hydreigon and Mamoswine do a good job of offensively checking new drops, while the latter also gains from Rotom leaving. Alolan Muk traps our new influx of ghosts, while Swampert doesn't have to worry about taking Hydro Pumps from Rotom, regaining its niche as an Electric check from Seismitoad.

Trending Down: Seismitoad, Aurorus / Alolan Sandslash, Mega Sceptile, Volt Turn

Seismitoad loses it's primary usage as a Rotom-W hard stop. It still has a small niche as a role compression for a Water immunity and a Stealth Rocker. Veil teams will now run Alolatales, it was (not) fun while it lasted, Aurorus and Sandslash-A. Mega Sceptile will still definitely be a threat, but it was a huge cuck to Rotom-W, and a nuisance to Volt Turn as a whole, an archetype that loses a bit of its luster without the washing machine.

I'm glad we can all finally get to shake things up a bit in the meta! Let's do our best to explore it to the fullest.
If you want a Tough Claws Rock-type that doesn't take up a Mega slot, use Lycanroc ;)
 

dingbat

ban all garden sneks
is a Tiering Contributor
#5
Next off, a bit of theorymonning here but if Stakatakatakatakatakatakkatkktkatkakaktkaktkkaka drops to UU (which isn't a guarantee because this thing is actually good in OU), then Trick Room might actually become a really threatening playstyle o.O

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-660876591

I didn't play this test game particularly well nor am I known for building good Trick Room teams but as you can see, CB Gyro Ball literally breaks through everything that doesn't have high defense and resist it. I know most people have been running -Def nature with 14 IVs in order for Beast Boost to increase Attack instead of Defense, but since it's already insanely powerful, Beast Boosting Defense isn't a particularly terrible idea, because that actually allows Stakataka to tank many Fighting/Ground moves more capably which in many cases it cannot do without Defense boosts.

I know some people here have sold it off because of what seems to be really alarming weaknesses, but what I've been seeing in practice with a few of my test matches but also ladder matches in OU is a freakishly strong threat that is capable of absolutely demolishing unprepared teams.

edit: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-661334808 this shit ohkos Gliscor lmao


go wild

edit: also fuck alolatales oml ban that thing
 
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eaglehawk

once known as smogon gay baby #4
#6
Another thing I see trending downwards is Infernape. A-Wak and Gengar are all pretty good checks to Infernape that capitalize on typing and either bulk or speed to beat it.

I wouldn't be so keen in putting A-Tales all the way up at S; rather, either A or A+ fits the bill here. USUM gave us a lot of new Defog users to remove screens. Furthermore, really bulky pseudo-Hazers like Mega Aggron can mess up a set up opportunity.

EDIT: STOP FUCKING USING ARCANINE. IT'S NOT GOOD.
 
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#7
Time for some fiery hot takes on how the new shifts are gonna affect the meta. This post will probably be invalidated soon by bans or new meta trends but it's a good idea to give people some sort of idea of how the new Pokemon are gonna affect our beloved tier going in. So without further ado, in order of most to least busted:


View attachment 96827
S with Veil, D without

#VanBeil. Aurora Veil was already broken before we got Ninetales, now it's even worse. What previously was accomplished through Aurorus and Sandslash-A together, is now compressed into one slot. This frees up Veil teams to gain either more offensive fire power, or better patch up defensive weaknesses that could be found when you are forced to run two Ice types to activate Veil. Ninetales has the same tricks Aurorus has such as Freeze Dry and Encore, a Dragon immunity to potentially set up Veil multiple times, as well as other options like Hypnosis to annoy some offensive mons and allow for even more free setup. Please no. Veil also lost one of its best checks in Rotom Wash, making my opinion to ban it even stronger. Without Veil, it's a weak Nasty Plot Sweeper 4x weak to the best priority in the tier, that also has a Rocks weakness and poor bulk. No thanks.

View attachment 96829
A+ or Beyond

The wall has been freed. Stakataka is insanely strong, packing the strongest Gyro Ball in the game, Trick Room to heavily fuck with offense, and a number of Z-options to break through traditional checks. Beast Boost, in combination with lowering defense IVs, allows it to quickly snowball with attack raises and sweep through a team in the blink of an eye. It can even opt to keep its IVs intact and use defense EVs to beat traditonal checks by stopping priority from the likes of Azumarill's Aqua Jet and Infernape's Mach Punch. While Trick Room is definitely biggest threat to look our for, a Choice Band set can wallop walls looking to switch in on the Trick Room turn. This would give Staka a way to beat some of it's best answers, fat mons. The final major boon for the Wall can be found in it's massive defense, living things it really shouldn't have a way to live at full.

Stakataka is undoubtedly a monster threat sure to affect the meta, but it's not without answers. It struggles to break through the bulkiest pokemon in the tier. Hippowdon is probably our best answer, with a physically defensive set living any hit with ease, then recovering or killing with Earthquake. Other Pokemon such as Suicune, Quagsire, Mega Aggron, and Mega Steelix will also be solid switch ins. It's main niche will lie in destroying some Offense builds with the Trick Room set, as it has limited means to deal with it's hard counters, something I believe could allow it to stay UU.

View attachment 96828
A- to B+

Sei's boy has come. The Wak hits very hard, has a wide array of sets and coverage options, as well as a decent defensive typing with 3 potential immunities. Holding it back are a nasty Stealth Rock weakness, a turtle-like 45 speed, and it's lack of reliable recovery, needing Thick Club to have offensive presence. One Alowak's best uses, as a Scizor check, is hard to pull off because Scir can U-turn, and Marowak takes hazard damage every time it comes in. Hydreigon will also be a prominent offensive answer, taking most of its hits with ease, barring the rare Low Kick or Focus Punch. Defensive answers include Hippowdon (again!),

A Swords Dance set will threaten fat balance heavily, while stall could potentially have uses for a defensive Pain Split set with Leftovers and Will - O Wisp, giving a Volt Switch immunity without typical Ground weaknesses. A Rocks weakness and exploitable typing will prevent it from rising up top with the S and A+ ranks though.

View attachment 96830
B+ to B

The former OU titan has dropped once again. Unfortunately, our meta is not very kind to it. Gengar faces a lot of Pokemon it just doesn't have many answers for. Alolan Muk is going to wreck it no matter what, with the most Gengar can do is either running Sub Disable to try and escape Pursuit, or Tricking it a Choice Scarf to cripple it for the rest of the match. Gengar can struggle to break Special Walls like Blissey and Umbreon, but it does have Pain Split and the aforementioned Trick. I think it definitely could have some neat techs though, Gengar still boasts massive coverage akin to Nihilego, a great speed tier, and a wide variety of sets. Scarf sets alone can run annoying things like Trick and Destiny Bond, while Pain Split, Substitute, Disablem and Toxic can really mess with some its checks, allowing team mates to break them more easily. You could also run potential Z-move lures, I haven't really explored this yet though, perhaps Fairium Dazzling Gleam?

View attachment 96831
C to C-

Will definitely have a niche as a Rain sweeper, which as an archetype looks somewhat better now? Expect a rise for the King if Mega Swampert ever drops again. Other than Rain, does not have a niche that UU requires. Will probably drop further than UU, but definitely usable in its niche.

View attachment 96832
Lycanroc Dusk

If you want a Tough Claws Rock type, use Mega Aerodactyl. If you want a physical priority sweeper, use Scizor, Azumarill, Lucario, or any other god damn Pokemon in this tier. This thing sucks, it's only unique trait is Accelerock which isn't even worth ranking it. Other priority options will provide so much more to the table than this will.

Now that we've dealt with the drops, we gotta talk about Rotom-Wash, who departed to the realms of OU. This significantly affects our meta, many Pokemon found themselves dropping. I'm too lazy to effort for the stuff that was already in the tier, so i'm just gonna list some stuff that likes Rotom leaving and the new drops coming in, as well as some that don't like the changes.

Trending Up: Hippowdon, Mega Pidgeot, Alolan Muk, Swampert, Hydreigon, Mamoswine

Hippowdon gains the most, countering the strongest two non Ninetales drops, and heavily appreciating Rotom's departure, which gained free switch ins other than Toxic on Hippo. Bird Jesus is free to spam Hurricane once more, with other premier Electrics Mega Manectric and Raikou lacking recovery. Hydreigon and Mamoswine do a good job of offensively checking new drops, while the latter also gains from Rotom leaving. Alolan Muk traps our new influx of ghosts, while Swampert doesn't have to worry about taking Hydro Pumps from Rotom, regaining its niche as an Electric check from Seismitoad.

Trending Down: Seismitoad, Aurorus / Alolan Sandslash, Mega Sceptile, Volt Turn

Seismitoad loses it's primary usage as a Rotom-W hard stop. It still has a small niche as a role compression for a Water immunity and a Stealth Rocker. Veil teams will now run Alolatales, it was (not) fun while it lasted, Aurorus and Sandslash-A. Mega Sceptile will still definitely be a threat, but it was a huge cuck to Rotom-W, and a nuisance to Volt Turn as a whole, an archetype that loses a bit of its luster without the washing machine.

I'm glad we can all finally get to shake things up a bit in the meta! Let's do our best to explore it to the fullest.
Stakataka seems pretty strong at first glance, but once the novelty wears off and the ladder adapts, the glaring weaknesses of this Pokemon will become more pronounced. I'd say A+ would be far too optimistic.
 

HotFuzzBall

fuzzy-chan \(ㆁヮㆁ✿)
is an Artist
#8
Aurora Veil is definitely quite a potent play style with AlolaTales dropping since you compress the ye'old Aurorus+AlolaSlash into one mon. Anyways, there's many potent sweepers that will benefit from Aurora Veil such as BD Azumarill, DD Mega Altaria, Haxorus, Mega Shark, Linoone, and most importantly Stakataka (which kind of replaces the old Mega Swampert + AV). With that in mind, I can speculate Defog Klefki being a possible option since it has priority Defog to remove AV (though it still seems like an extremely niche option since Klefki can fit so many moves into just 4 slots), Bulky Defog Scizor or possibly Offensive Defog Scizor will make a reappearance since it threatens both AlolaTales and AV in one slot. Magneton usage will probably trend up so AV teams have a way to trap Scizor and eliminate it. Also keep in mind about potential Eject Button users (specifically Latias, Krookodile, and Amoonguss) if you are using Scizor as a means to prevent AV from being put into play.

Though I'm not 100% certain on the above claims just because all I see now is Trick Room teams featuring Stakataka and AlolaWak or people panicking about what to replace their WashToms with for their Volt Turn teams (or those gd Ambipom teams). I'll probably edit this post (or make a new one) tomorrow since I'm still tweaking and editing my hodgepodge AV team I made in like 10 minutes and when I play more games. Though so far I haven't had any problems with Scizor (though CB Scizor is still kind of annoying for the Eject Button strat if using Latias or Krookodile) or opposing TR teams which is kind of good I guess.

Tbh I'd just ya'know kick AV or AlolaTales out but, it's still way too early to judge imo.
 
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#9
Sage of the 6 inspired me to do a rank prediction.

B-

People wrongfully tend to assume that this will be used on rain teams. Rain really has nothing going for it, nothing at all. Instead, this will be much better running rain dance and then a z move. Even a crit set doesn't sound awful. It doesn't really have much for stall so I don't see it going higher than B-.

252+ SpA Sniper Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey on a critical hit: 325-384 (45.5 - 53.7%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery



Essentially broken, but i think it's important to come clean now that I think we should ban the mon and not the move. Right now, there are few enough mons with veil that its justified to ban them individually. I also dislike the whole "lower tiers have banned it" reasoning, UU has a much bigger power creep and can afford to withstand veil if the user doesn't have snow warning. Im relatively impartial, but I do think the tier becomes way less fun without cool techs like Veil that are still manageable. If it gets to a point where 2 mon veil becomes broken, I'd rather we suspect that. But I disagree with outright banning the move.

B-

Overhyped. There is 0 excuse for bad typing. Better wallbreakers exist that aren't slow and badly typed. For instance, alolan marowak has better typing and does similar damage with flare blitz. Also doesn't rely on an 8 pp move. I cannot think of many things Stakataka doesn't lose to 1v1.

That said, trick room seems kind of cool, and it OHKOs almost every unresisted mon. I want this lower than B- but I have to admit it could turn out okay. I'm not against stak i just think the hype will die down.

A

This has a lot of viable sets, which in my priority list is the most deciding factor of a mons viability. Not only is the lightning rod set going to shape the meta, the rock head set has a lot of potential in combination with shadow bone to break stall and generally reduce switchins. We actually have like 3-4 belly drummers right now that are just better, so I can't see that being a set. Everything else looks good for this. Muk isn't even an issue like it is for all other ghosts in the tier, so it's by far the best spinblocker.

A-

Worse than other ghosts admittedly, in terms of wallbreaking, but it shines in beating offense and annoying balance with taunt and stuff. Gengar can never really be a bad choice, it's ghost typing only holds it back if you consider muk, but it doesn't get poisoned and can will-o-wisp that thing and take less damage with a Z move. Other special attackers like latias and hydreigon are crippled entirely by muk, yet have not lost viability, I don't see why gengar should be the same. It has a lot of different good sets which aid its unpredictability and of course help its viability, like I said with Wak.

D, hopefully unranked

You know what I thought to myself as I was building? Gee, I really wish I had a tough claws rock type. That is a niche that will perfectly fit my team.

Except that didn't happen and no one has ever thought that. This thing doesn't fill a niche. Stealth rocks don't really save it either, it's still strictly worse than aerodactyl as a suicide lead.
 

Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
#11
I think people are overhyping how solid Marowak is as a defensive check to stuff. The typing+ability is amazing but the stats are garbo and that same typing means it’s vulnerable to every hazard and especially vulnerable to stealth rock. It also doesn’t really want to run Leftovers which compounds this bulk issue. I just don’t see well made teams allowing this to come in more than once or at absolute most, twice a game due to all of these factors and it’s lacklustre speed. Definitely got huge offensive power, but not as good as it’s being portrayed to be for me. I guess we’ll see more Alomomola running Knock Off etc but I dont think this will tear up the metagame, just force small adaptations rather.
 
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#12
Lots of Trick Room teams out there right now so I've been using an extremely solid balance team that tries to have a good matchup versus most Trick Rooms.

Here's the team: http://pokepast.es/b9594f824a2e8690

1515605898466.png


Swampert is obviously a solid switchin to the new and strong Trick Room Stakataka while it also can check Marowak-Alolan pretty nicely, and outspeed it outside of Trick Room. Scizor is a good Defogger because it beats some of the Trick Room Stealth Rock users (Uxie, Bronzong) while also giving a beatdown to Ninetales-Alolan which I'm sure will surge if it's not banned or nerfed by the leadership soon. I find SD Gliscor to be a pretty big pain for Trick Room since it has the bulk to stomach their attacks and stall out turns while it can sweep somewhat easily.

Altaria Mega is one of the only good Crawdaunt counters which is common on Trick Room while Amoonguss counters Azu/Primarina, which are often opted for if Crawdaunt isn't. The rest of my team just adds bulk and god typing synergy to counter stuff while also packing a decent punch, for example Arcanine is solid in beating Scizor and can do things like bait Cobalion's Z move.

I was using this team before the tier shift but now it's become (tentatively) one of my main laddering teams and it just reached a solid 1800+ on the ladder.

Here's a replay of it manhandling a TR team, which is what it is supposed to do anyways: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-686810980

The matchup was made even more in my favor because my opponent opted for the unorthodox Ampharos-Mega, which as far as I know is practically unseen in UU (at east before the shift) and at best still rare in TR. Since I had two grounds, both of which probably countered Ampharos Mega, and an Altaria-Mega, it almost became deadweight and just wasted TR turns and would let me come in to recover/spam moves.

The lack of speed and only weak priority means the team has some issues with strong attackers with average speed like Nidoking, Chandelure, and Togekiss (after NP). This isn't a RMT subforum but still, I feel like I would have "optimized" (whatever that means in the Pokemon context) if I can just solve or at least ameliorate this issue.

And just to quickly note, I think it was a good decision not to ban or vote on Serperior yet. I'm not saying it is or is not broken now, but I feel it was worth the wait for the (beyond our control) tier shifts. I doubt Serperior got any better with the drops (but again...who knows).
 
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#13
Trick Room definitely got a lot scarier now that threats like SD AloWak and Rockium OTR Staka are a thing. I'd argue that Crawdaunt just got leaps and bounds better thus far, although metagame trends may shift away from Trick Room eventually. It fits like a glove on Trick Room teams since it's slow, but it's also relatively fast outside of TR so you can use it to effectively anti-TR opposing TR teams. Marowak and Staka both need to be running considerable speed investment to creep minimum speed Crawdaunt and the thing has next to no switchins in the tier if running a Choice Band. Its counters are limited to a handful of threats like defensive Mega Altaria.

Focusing more on the Trick Room sweepers that just joined the tier, I think they're both going to be extremely solid. Alolan Marowak has an excellent defensive typing, singlehandedly invalidating Mega Manectric while it's healthy, and is a massive pain in the ass to switch in on. Its low speed makes it effective on Trick Room and it has good, strong options like Bonemerang to break sashes, Sturdy, and the like. With a Swords Dance boost under its belt, this thing has virtually no common switchins. Not an A+ or S mon but still good.

Stakataka is a while different beast of a mon. It has a scary 397 Attack and a pretty decent offensive typing and enormous physical bulk making it very hard to OHKO without extremely strong moves it's very weak to. It finds many opportunities to set its own Trick Room up and can then proceed to smash stuff with base 150 power Gyro Balls, a horrifying one-time use Continental Crush that can irreparably damage switchins, Earthquake for coverage, and if it's running the correct spread and IVs it can snowball out of control very quickly. It has a few other options but its OTR set is probably gonna be its best.

Also, may God help us all now that Alolan Ninetales dropped down here.
 
#14
Just gonna write down my thoughts on some relevant Pokemon...

I did not want this to drop so much. True; it has counters, but its matchup against straight up Hyper Offense is just extremely good. I am not going to say that it is unhealthy for invalidating a playstyle because this is obviously just the beginning and we need the meta to settle down before jumping to such conclusions, but this should definitely be on the radar.

Other than that, seeing Trick Room teams 50% of the time while laddering is just annoying. Trick Room really annoying to play against and Stakataka just makes it worse. I really hope that Trick Room teams are just some first-hype type of thing and that they won't roam the ladder too much.


Its ability to switch into Mega Manectric and non-Shadow Ball Raikou and either set-up Stealth Rock on them or just launch a powerful attack is definitely something. Its Flare Blitz is capable of 2HKOing a standard Mixed Defensive Hippowdon, and its Shadow Bone is capable of 2HKOing Swampert after Stealth Rock + Spikes, which just shows how powerful this is.

But regardless of its ridiculous damage output, I am just really glad we got a reliable offensive Mega Manectric switch-in (until they start running HP Water).


I have been waiting for this to drop. This is honestly nothing but another Pokémon to toy with. It is not broken nor bad, and UU felt like it lacks a fast Ghost-type ever since OU took it.

I can see most sets to be Choice Scarf, but Choice Specs is definitely threatening to any team lacking Alolan Muk. Substitute + Disable seems interesting too, but why test that when you can just nuke stuff with Choice Specs, right?


I used to hate Aurora Veil Offense before Alolan Ninetales rose to OU; I really glad it left. Before drops, I have been messing with Aurorus + Alolan Sandslash Aurora Veil offense too much, to the point I waited for it to drop.

I admit I did not test much, but it doesn't seem broken to me, right now. I do think that it has unhealthy elements on it, though. Basically, Alolan Ninetales makes so you can reliably set-up Aurora Veil every time it comes in on a slower Pokemon barring Scizor, thanks to Snow Warning. Other than its ability, Alolan Ninetales itself is not bad at all. It has access to support moves, such as Encore and Hypnosis, which can potentially give a teammate set-up opportunity.

There have been speculations that Klefki could be a great answer for it, but if I implement the core meeps used in his team, Alolan Ninetales + Krookodile + Magneton, A) Magneton traps Klefki and removes it from the game, B) Krookodile is Dark-type, means it blocks Prankster Defog. Furthermore, people have been using Defog Scizor for Aurora Veil, but if Krookodile holds an Eject Button, Scizor is removed from the game if it dares to touch Krookodile, thanks to Magneton.
 
#15
Not gonna lie, we all know how good and brainless Aurora Veil Offense are and we all remember how it was when Ninetales-Alola was UU about what ? 6 months ago ? That was pure hell and it's gonna be 100% sure the same now. At that time Aurora Veil had avoided the banhammer just cuz' Ninetales-A had risen OU. I sincerely hope the UU council will focus on this problem before everything else.

Aurora Veil with Ninetales-A is just too low risk, high reward in Underused so please, ban it already.
 
#16
I find all this intriguing considering how i just started playing UU more seriously only to have it all get flipped around. I honestly think the rotom-W move is going to affect the meta more than the other stuff dropping down just because it has become the go to defogger for so many of recent and a really good pivot poke to have around. Belly Drum Azu also seems to benefit from this shift pretty nicely
 
#17
It's not even like ninetales sets up veil and dies, it sticks around long enough to be hard to kill on its own. If you dont get at least one kill with ninetales, youre going to set up veil 2 or 3 times minimum. Standard 2 mon veil can only do this once, maybe twice at best.

EDIT: @ below - you can get a defense drop with Marowak
 
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#18
aw man was really hoping alowak could be a good stall breaker but
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 177-208 (44.9 - 52.7%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 183-216 (38 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

:(
SD seems like a good idea but it might have a bit of 4MSS with flare blitz, shadow bone, bonemerang, and fire punch if u don't wanna die to recoil, (and sub to set up on blissey)

looking forward to new drops tho :^)
 

Hogg

grubbing in the ashes
is a Tournament Directoris a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
UU & Tour Head
#19
Aurora Veil with Ninetales-A is just too low risk, high reward in Underused so please, ban it already.

Well, if you say so...

Following the tier shift, the UU council held a vote on Ninetales-Alola. Ninetales-Alola was on the radar for a ban before rising to OU previously, so we were immediately concerned with its post-Ultra impact. It did not take long to confirm what many of us had suspected: despite the departure of previous Veil staples such as Xurkitree and Hawlucha, Ninetales offense is still an incredibly overwhelming archetype. Bulky setup sweepers such as Suicune, Scizor, Doublade and Latias become incredibly difficult to deal with under Veil, while more recent offensive threats such as Serperior and Azumarill become even more threatening.

Regarding Aurora Veil versus Ninetales, many of us were unconvinced that Aurora Veil in and of itself was broken. With Ninetales-Alola's Speed and ability, as well as its myriad of support options such as Hypnosis, Encore and Safeguard, it is incredibly reliable at setting Veil in almost every game, sometimes even multiple times in a game. Meanwhile, other options such as Aurorus + AlolaSlash require multiple teamslots and turns to perform the same feat. While AurorusSlash offense teams were proven effective on the ladder, their many drawbacks and restrictions in teambuilding mean that they offer far more counterplay than Ninetales-based Veil teams.

As Hikari was unavailable to vote, Pak was added to the voting slate. The council voted 10-1 to ban Ninetales-Alola:

Ninetales-Alola: Ban

Aurora Veil is retarded and broken as it is. Adding a faster setter with more offensive presence and multiple support options makes it even more broken. Since banning Aurora Veil itself is out of the question, Ninetales-Alola must be removed to prevent it from becoming completely overwhelming.


do not ban

i dont have any reason to assume its broken this early


ban

i think alolan ninetails should be banned because it augments offensive pokemon way too much. between hypnosis safeguard and aurora veil all packed into one slot it makes already threatening pokemon like scizor / latias pretty much unmanageable.


ban, ninetales-a provides aurora veil offense with enough support to push it over the edge. as we saw in the earlier rounds of uu open, ninetales aurora veil offense almost entirely invalidates other offense builds due to how ridiculous Pokemon like suicune, latias, and scizor become with all the support that ninetales brings to the table.


Alolan Ninetales: ban Aurora Veil was a good playstyle even before Alolan Ninetales returned, but with it back, the playstyle creates very lopsided matchups that isn't healthy at all. Combine the support Veil on its own provides along with what else Ninetales as a Pokemon can do (Hypnosis to incapacitate a foe, good Speed tier to set up Veil fast, decent SpD coupled with Fairy typing that goes a long way in terms of what it can set up on, and even Safeguard if you're into that), it's just not something I can see being good for the tier.


Ban, see above reasoning for why.


Ban - besides aura veil Ninetales provides almost everything you want in single slot with safe guard to prevent toxic spikes / tw and hypnosis / encore to help set up sweepers to make his work even easier this w/o count the good speed tier it has


Ban. Alola Ninetales offers far too much to Aurora Veil offense just because it only requires its own teamslot to work. On top of that, it has a respectable speed tier and pretty decent offensive capabilities.


Aurora Veil is stupid and makes setup sweepers (Scizor in particular) ridiculous to deal with. With Veil itself bordering broken as is, Ninetales-Alola only makes things worse, needing only one Pokemon slot to set it up, possessing other solid utility options, and having respectable offensive presence. Ban.


Ninetales-Alola: Ban

We've had enough time to experience with this 'mon last meta to know exactly how good it is. A good speed + hypnosis + a fairly threatening stab combo meant that it was always able to get veil up at least once a game and having 5 free slots that can take advantage of veil is too much for the tier to handle, especially now that we just lost one of our most splashable defog user.


Ninetales-Alola - BAN

Ninetales-Alola is too good at setting Aurora Veil. Aurora Veil is currently held back by the fact that it requires two comparatively bad 'mons in order to set it up, while Ninetales-Alola sets up Hail itself through Snow Warning. During 'UU Open meta' we also had access to Ninetales-Alola and it was too strong then, too, but it rose to OU before we could act on it. Granted, abusers like Xurkitree and Hawlucha have since left the tier, but current Aurora Veil based teams prove there isn't a shortage of set-up sweepers to abuse it at all. Ninetales-Alola patches the one major flaw current Aurora Veil teams struggle with and in turn makes them too strong for UU.


The Immortal and Eyan, please remove Ninetales-Alola from the UU ladder.

Once the meta settles a bit more, the council will hold another voting slate. In the meantime, enjoy your slightly less wintry metagame!
 

warzoid

wreck into a poll like a Raichu volt
is a Tiering Contributor
#20
Trick Room
  • setters fear Roar, Taunt, and getting knocked out
  • get outsped outside of Trick Room
  • lose your Stakataka and Crawdaunt to Vacuum Wave Lucario
  • players complain about facing you on the ladder
Tailwind
  • fast setters including Prankster options
  • still outspeed lots of stuff outside of Tailwind
  • lose your Mamoswine and Crawdaunt to Vacuum Wave Lucario
  • lol what a gimmick
Run Relaxed 0 speed on Hippo/Pert/Quag etc. until the Stakataka hype dies down.
 
#21
Here is my take on Gengars new place in the UU meta. This monster may have been crippled by the bulk invested OU tier featuring Toxapex, Landorus-T, Chansey, and other OU pokemon, but in UU Gengar will take the meta by storm. Although Alo-Muk and Blissey hinder our friendly ghost they are not enough reason for Gengar to move down the Viability Rankings. If you're having trouble with Blissey, meet stall breaker Gengar. Utilizing taunt Gengar prevents Blissey from doing anything, unless you're playing Cookeees and the Blissey has Fire Blast, and is able to 3HKO Blissey while at the same time taking no damage. I have no case for Alo-Muk because it completely walls and checks Gengar however a simple double into pokemon like Gliscor, Cobalion, and Krookodile is enough to force out Alo-Muk and wear it down with Stealth Rock. With the large decrease of Umbreon usage, and the constant decline of its viability I do not think it will be an issue for Gengar because Focus Blast is a 2HKO after rocks including 2 Leftovers recovery. Speaking of Gliscor, I think Gliscor will actually be a threat to Gengar and the usage of Spdef Gliscor will increase. If this does happen the appeal of HP Ice Gengar might rise. In addition Mega-Aerodactyl is an a huge threat to Gengar as it has the ability to take a shadow ball and pursuit trap the Gengar. With 130 special attack and 110 speed OU has gifted us with a common scarfer matched in speed only by Latias having the clear advantage in special attack. The Meta is unkind to Gengar because of UU's lack of Grass and Ghost types meaning gGengar hits more Pokémon neutrally, however Gengar is still a threat that should stay B+.
 
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Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
#22
aw man was really hoping alowak could be a good stall breaker but
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 177-208 (44.9 - 52.7%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 183-216 (38 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

:(
SD seems like a good idea but it might have a bit of 4MSS with flare blitz, shadow bone, bonemerang, and fire punch if u don't wanna die to recoil, (and sub to set up on blissey)

looking forward to new drops tho :^)
Try running a BD Azu alongside it, so then you can knock off on their switch to Alo, BD up and then force them into their unaware mon, which you can then also knock off. This should give you the progress you were after in this matchup. There are probably other ways but this was the first thing that came to mind, a Pokémon doesnt necessarily have to 2HKO everything off the bat to be effective, but sometimes needs the correct support to get going.
 
#23
I’m just curious, why is Ninetails Veil broken in UU but not in OU. I realize that’s not of the UU councils concern but please just help an outsider understand.
 
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