np: USUM UU Stage 8 - Diamonds From Sierra Leone

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Pearl

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UU Leader
#1

"We are the children of the blood diamonds."

Diancie-Mega moved from OU to UU
Amoonguss moved from OU to UU
Mamoswine moved from OU to UU
Venusaur-Mega moved from OU to UU


Gastrodon moved from PU to OU
Gliscor moved from UU to OU
Serperior moved from UU to OU (?)


Greetings, fellow UU folks! After a period of relative stability, we're now back at it with some juicy tier shifts. I've included all of the changes that our tier underwent with the release of June's usage stats above, so you don't need to worry about doing that much browsing to know the hottest news. With the release of Drake's newest, critically acclaimed album (not LOL), it seems like UU's favorite scorpion has been a little too overplayed up there. Yikes! Aside from that, we've received Amoonguss back, as well as two new toys to mess around with in Mega Diancie and Mega Venusaur. Whether or not they'll pan out to be too much for us to handle is something that only time can tell, really. Mamoswine's return and Serperior leaving are also two changes that are guaranteed to shake up our metagame to a reasonable extent, even if I can't quite explain the latter still.

Due to the fact that UU Open is currently undergoing, there is going to be some urgency regarding potential decisions to quick ban some of the more questionable new drops (it should be obvious which Pokemon I'm referring to here, but Diancie really is a big question mark at the current moment), so expect to hear back from us soon if we do decide to act on it through a council vote. Aside from that, we'll be actively monitoring the tier in order to see if it's going to be necessary to do anything else in the near future. That aside, feel free to use this thread to share your thoughts on anything related to the current SM UU metagame, including opinions regarding potentially broken Pokemon, underrated Pokemon, rejoicing the fact that our favorite mushroom is finally back to chip some more sneaky Scizor and all other sorts of things that come to your mind. Happy posting! :psyglad:

 
#2
can we quickban mega venu and diancie ok thanks

Other than that, these tier shifts look rad! Serp leaving is kinda sudden and confusing, but hey, we got two great mons in Amoonguss and Mamoswine back, and Gliscor leaving is sure to open up some pathways for some new, exciting mons to have a shot at dominating the tier. I'm excited as hell to play UU now especially with the two previously mentioned threats being quickbanned
 
#3
Drake's Scorpion album is fire ok? Also, Serperior rose because of an Aurora Veil team that has Serperior in it has been getting traction lately, which is also the reason why Alolan Ninetales rose
 
#4
Why quickban, especially mega diancie when scizor is so prevalent. Theres no real reason not to give the mons all at least a few days in the tier, to see how they pan out. At worst they get suspected later on, the tier being chaos for a few days wont be a huge deal.
 
#5
I came prepared for this exact occassion with the real heat
Some stallbreaker Mega Venusaur sets
Venusaur-Mega @ Venusaurite
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 76 HP / 252 Atk / 180 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Petal Blizzard
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance
- Synthesis

Venusaur-Mega @ Venusaurite
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 76 HP / 252 SpA / 180 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Synthesis
- Growth

These sets are still in testing and there's probably a more optimal spread for these but the general idea is stall can't even touch this thing while it casually sets up to max (Special) Attack. It can get stopped by certain stall options like Crobat, or Moltres if it wished to forgo toxic/fire STAB for a flying move. But overall these could be some really fun surprise sets that use Mega Venusaur's insane bulk to a more offensive end. I figured I'd post them here since its an interesting way of using one of the new mons.
 
#6
Why quickban, especially mega diancie when scizor is so prevalent. Theres no real reason not to give the mons all at least a few days in the tier, to see how they pan out. At worst they get suspected later on, the tier being chaos for a few days wont be a huge deal.
I'm just worried we'll get a situation where people think these mons aren't broken and let 'em go, only to find out they are broken months later, in which time they have made the tier hypercentralized and stale.
 
#7
I'm just worried we'll get a situation where people think these mons aren't broken and let 'em go, only to find out they are broken months later, in which time they have made the tier hypercentralized and stale.
Obviously that's gonna be a potential issue every time a mon drops, but its not likely due to the fact that the people who control the bans typically have pretty strong knowledge of the tier. If anything, its better than the mons being unbanned several months down the road only to learn they were a healthy addition all along.
 
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#8
Venusaur-Mega @ Venusaurite
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 76 HP / 252 SpA / 180 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Synthesis

This was a set that was brought up by Adaam in the UU discord that I thought sounded cool and wanted to share. This set is rather self-explanatory. 3 attacks Venu basically beats 90% of UU with its STABs + HP Fire. The last move chosen is Synthesis for longevity. The EV spread outspeeds 252+ base 60s like Primarina and Bewear. A good partner for this set would probably be a Pursuit user that can deal with Psychic and Ghost types.
 
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explodingdaisies

What's the point of talking if nobody ever listens
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#9
Mega Diancie should really be quickbanned. The whole "hurr durr it dies to Scizor who's everywhere" argument doesn't take away from the fact that Mega Diancie has basically all the tools to be absolutely deadly in this tier. It beats stall with endeavor( doesn't even need sub tbh as 172 SpA 2HKOs quagsire). It beats balance with CM and coverage options in Earth Power, Psychic and HP fire. It can beat offense with Rock Polish.

I have to see some more from Mega-Venusaur before I make a decision on it. Yes it makes balance and stall better, but I wanna see how it shakes out. It has some great bulk and an amazing ability that drops 2 of it's weaknesses in Thicc Fat and recovery.

On to the most surprising drop: Mega-Latias. I think we may have been a bit hasty in our ban of it. The biggest reason I voted ban was because it could turn Specs Primarina into setup bait.

252 SpA Choice Specs Primarina Moonblast vs. +2 252 HP / 4 SpD Latias-Mega: 162-192 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- 19.1% chance to 2HKO

But I think it could be bearable in the tier, and I feel should probably the first thing we retest if we quickban the others. Not much to say about Mamo. It's a tremendous breaker that has amazing STABs, good coverage options in knock off and stone edge, STAB priority, but some middling speed. It is quite annoying to switch into, but then again what wallbreaker isn't?
 
#10
On to the most surprising drop: Mega-Latias. I think we may have been a bit hasty in our ban of it. The biggest reason I voted ban was because it could turn Specs Primarina into setup bait.
Mega Latias is supposed to end up in UUBL anyway since it was already suspected and banned from UU once before. And with it on the rise in OU it'll likely rise right back up to OU with the next set of tier shifts.

And please don't bring that horrific mon back into UU.
 
#11
I made a post on the Stage 7 regarding Mega Diancie, the only thing that changed from the previously wrong tier shifts is now that Serperior (An offensive check) is leaving. However, we get Mega Venusaur instead which handles Mega Diancie (lacking Psychic) really well. Diancie still suffers a huge 4-Slot Syndrome, so more than likely something is going to wall one or more sets on your team. Endeavor is obviously scary, but in my opinion it's kind of waste to use on your only Mega. I think it needs to see some play rather than quick-banning.

No comment on Mega Venusaur, I'm sure it will be insanely good and maybe this Pokemon might warrant a quick-ban but I think we should test the waters with it like Mega Diancie.
 
#12
Since Mamo is back now I think it can use this tech it used in OU a while ago
Mamoswine @ Metronome
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Icicle Crash
- Ice Shard
- Earthquake
Since Mamo normally forces switch-ins,It can actually sub up and start spamming one of it's stabs on some teams and start getting some kills
 
#13
can we quickban mega venu and diancie ok thanks

Other than that, these tier shifts look rad! Serp leaving is kinda sudden and confusing, but hey, we got two great mons in Amoonguss and Mamoswine back, and Gliscor leaving is sure to open up some pathways for some new, exciting mons to have a shot at dominating the tier. I'm excited as hell to play UU now especially with the two previously mentioned threats being quickbanned
I agree that Diancie-M should be removed for metagame stability, it puts too much pressure on team-building and is incredibly versatile, with a great ability in Magic Bounce. If allowed to stay, this mon will easily dominate the metagame. But I don't agree with a Quickban for Venusaur-M. Not right now at least.

While Venusaur is indeed relatively tanky, it does not possess the offensive presence to warrant a quickban. I could envision a CM Latias setting up on this. And while it is bulky, in terms of longevity, it has no access to Leftovers and Synthesis only has 8pp, so it gets chipped away eventually. I don't think we need to rush with a Quickban for this mon just yet.

On another note, we could bring back Azumarill now that Amoonguss and M-Venusaur are in the tier. The only reason it was removed was because Amoonguss left to OU. Afterwards, we could also consider bringing back Breloom because the tier would now have 3 additional checks to it... The more the merrier.
 
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kokoloko

what matters is our plan!
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#15
noooo serp :( i’ll miss you buddy it’s been lit

literally the best mon sigh

anyway diancie-m hype time for scizor usage to go from 98% to 100%

in all seriousness though, don’t quickban this yet i have a feeling it’ll be fine esp since we got mega venu with it, but naturally high scizor and empoleon usage will deter it a bit as well.

ps. haven’t even looked at the stats but empoleon is everywhere on ladder so i’m assuming it’s at least 15% or so?
 

Mazz

Call it a comeback
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#16
kokoloko Empoleon's at 9.6% in 1630 and 1760 for a quick reference. 9th and 11th place in overall usage respectively.

I'm not super keen on the idea of retesting Azumarill, at the very least not yet. Sure, Amoonguss and M-Venusaur provide two brilliant answers to its CB set. M-Venu needs some offensive investment or hazards and serious defensive investment to be a reliable answer to the BD set. If Azumarill opts for Return > Knock Off and you can't get Venusaur in safely, its game over regardless. Only M-Venusaur is a reliable answer to the trapper set, which iirc was a bigger issue than the offensive variants. I know council agrees with the timing being wrong: this shift presented UU with one of the most dynamic changes I've seen to a metagame that wasn't an early beta shift. Any decision regarding Mega Diancie, Mamoswine, and Mega Venusaur takes precedent over retesting Azumarill.

On a similar train of logic, having both Amoonguss and M-Venusaur would in theory allow for Breloom (and maybe Buzzwole?) to be retested, but I doubt those two alone would be enough. Such thinking doesn't account for changes that other additions and departures are going to cause and instead chooses to focus on Azumarill, Breloom, or other UUBL threats in a vacuum.

I can't speak much on how M-Venusaur is going to handle in this metagame: I lack the immediate experience of high end play in this tier. But I do recall wanting this Pokemon during ORAS. It's an excellent check to a lot of top threats and will do wonders on stall and balance. Its consumption of a mega slot is going to hinder it in those roles however: stall really appreciates having M-Aggron (and sometimes M-Steelix). I doubt that because of role compression if Empoleon, Bronzong, Doublade, or Forretress could immediately replace them. I could however seeing Scizor + M-Venusaur somewhat filling the void so long as Blissey is the rocker. Empoleon maybe works but the lack of comparable physical defense is working against it. Balance loses access to M-Aerodactyl and other offensive megas but I see that being less problematic.

Good riddance re: Serperior.
 

Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
#17
kokoloko Empoleon's at 9.6% in 1630 and 1760 for a quick reference. 9th and 11th place in overall usage respectively.

I'm not super keen on the idea of retesting Azumarill, at the very least not yet. Sure, Amoonguss and M-Venusaur provide two brilliant answers to its CB set. M-Venu needs some offensive investment or hazards and serious defensive investment to be a reliable answer to the BD set. If Azumarill opts for Return > Knock Off and you can't get Venusaur in safely, its game over regardless. Only M-Venusaur is a reliable answer to the trapper set, which iirc was a bigger issue than the offensive variants. I know council agrees with the timing being wrong: this shift presented UU with one of the most dynamic changes I've seen to a metagame that wasn't an early beta shift. Any decision regarding Mega Diancie, Mamoswine, and Mega Venusaur takes precedent over retesting Azumarill.

On a similar train of logic, having both Amoonguss and M-Venusaur would in theory allow for Breloom (and maybe Buzzwole?) to be retested, but I doubt those two alone would be enough. Such thinking doesn't account for changes that other additions and departures are going to cause and instead chooses to focus on Azumarill, Breloom, or other UUBL threats in a vacuum.

I can't speak much on how M-Venusaur is going to handle in this metagame: I lack the immediate experience of high end play in this tier. But I do recall wanting this Pokemon during ORAS. It's an excellent check to a lot of top threats and will do wonders on stall and balance. Its consumption of a mega slot is going to hinder it in those roles however: stall really appreciates having M-Aggron (and sometimes M-Steelix). I doubt that because of role compression if Empoleon, Bronzong, Doublade, or Forretress could immediately replace them. I could however seeing Scizor + M-Venusaur somewhat filling the void so long as Blissey is the rocker. Empoleon maybe works but the lack of comparable physical defense is working against it. Balance loses access to M-Aerodactyl and other offensive megas but I see that being less problematic.

Good riddance re: Serperior.
Why would you need serious defensive investment to check the BD set? 92 Speed EVs on Venu outrun even jolly azu (bad) which allows you to comfortably switch in on the BD, take the jet with ease and then OHKO. On the teams where you’d want absolute max / max bulk 0 attacking 0 speed investment Venusaur you most likely have one of the 2 unaware users keeping this in check, while your Venusaur beats CB and Perish trapper and functions as the initial azu switch.

This brings me on to another point, I get that Venu is absurdly bulky but I really don’t think going for a max bulked out set with only 2 attacks and a utility move is the way to go on balance or bulky offense, these sets are best left to the stall builds that are obviously going to crop up. Venu’s bulk is so good that you can afford to go more offensive and still check pretty much everything you check by virtue of your typing and even more thanks to the extra coverage and speed, while actually being an annoyance from an offensive perspective. I mean come on, if Scizor is getting even better because of Diancie why would you want your venu walled by it?
 
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#18
Can we please not discuss a retest for Breloom or Azu? First off, we have no idea if Mega Venu is even going to stay or not, and even if it does, that's still only one solid defensive check for the duo: Amoonguss gets dicked by Yache Berry Natural Gift and Ice Punch respectively. Look, generally speaking, the metagame is better off without those two, and unbanning them AGAIN after making a big deal over suspecting and banning them makes the tier look bad, like we're confused.
 

Mazz

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#19
Why would you need serious defensive investment to check the BD set? 92 Speed EVs on Venu outrun even jolly azu (bad) which allows you to comfortably switch in on the BD, take the jet with ease and then OHKO. On the teams where you’d want absolute max / max bulk 0 attacking 0 speed investment Venusaur you most likely have one of the 2 unaware users keeping this in check, while your Venusaur beats CB and Perish trapper and functions as the initial azu switch.
I would figure that M-Venusaur would want to be running some form of bulk to be able to switch in on banded variants as well. Return automatically becomes a serious option for Azumarill, since it's one of the few attacks that actually damage M-Venusaur.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Return vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 158-186 (43.5 - 51.2%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO

I'm using this as a reference calculation. I doubt the M-Venusaur EVs are optimized, but solely being able to outspeed Azumarill isn't enough. Forcing non-BD variants out isn't enough when you lack passive leftovers recovery. Maybe I could have been more precise in my wording, but if Mega Venusaur is meant to be an end-all solution to more than just BD Azumarill, it needs to run more than just 92 Speed EVs. Considerable, like I've presented in that calculation, HP investment is needed at the very least. Defense is appreciated as well, but something like a Curse variant wouldn't be as reliant. Jolly Azumarill is bad, and I'd agree that even that much of an investment is too much speed.

This brings me on to another point, I get that Venu is absurdly bulky but I really don’t think going for a max bulked out set with only 2 attacks and a utility move is the way to go on balance or bulky offense, these sets are best left to the stall builds that are obviously going to crop up. Venu’s bulk is so good that you can afford to go more offensive and still check pretty much everything you check by virtue of your typing and even more thanks to the extra coverage and speed, while actually being an annoyance from an offensive perspective. I mean come on, if Scizor is getting even better because of Diancie why would you want your venu walled by it?
I see parallels to Sylveon and Hippowdon in terms of M-Venusaur's bulk, power, and movepool. They run limited offensive options due to the support they provide the team. I'm not discounting its offensive potential: it's natural bulk, access to boosting moves, a wide movepool, and Synthesis are going to make it an offensive threat. However, Leech Seed, Knock Off, Roar, Toxic, and Sleep Powder are all tools any team can make good use of. I would refrain from reserving these tools for the sole use of stall teams. There's ample utility to be had, and Scizor still retains the majority of its checks from this shift.

I don't want to advocate for fat M-Venusaur as it's best or only set. SD, Growth, and Curse give it a plethora of ways to beat up opposing teams and I would expect that this Pokemon be one of the top-tier threats in the metagame.
 
#20
I would figure that M-Venusaur would want to be running some form of bulk to be able to switch in on banded variants as well. Return automatically becomes a serious option for Azumarill, since it's one of the few attacks that actually damage M-Venusaur.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Return vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 158-186 (43.5 - 51.2%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO

I'm using this as a reference calculation. I doubt the M-Venusaur EVs are optimized, but solely being able to outspeed Azumarill isn't enough. Forcing non-BD variants out isn't enough when you lack passive leftovers recovery. Maybe I could have been more precise in my wording, but if Mega Venusaur is meant to be an end-all solution to more than just BD Azumarill, it needs to run more than just 92 Speed EVs. Considerable, like I've presented in that calculation, HP investment is needed at the very least. Defense is appreciated as well, but something like a Curse variant wouldn't be as reliant. Jolly Azumarill is bad, and I'd agree that even that much of an investment is too much speed.



I see parallels to Sylveon and Hippowdon in terms of M-Venusaur's bulk, power, and movepool. They run limited offensive options due to the support they provide the team. I'm not discounting its offensive potential: it's natural bulk, access to boosting moves, a wide movepool, and Synthesis are going to make it an offensive threat. However, Leech Seed, Knock Off, Roar, Toxic, and Sleep Powder are all tools any team can make good use of. I would refrain from reserving these tools for the sole use of stall teams. There's ample utility to be had, and Scizor still retains the majority of its checks from this shift.

I don't want to advocate for fat M-Venusaur as it's best or only set. SD, Growth, and Curse give it a plethora of ways to beat up opposing teams and I would expect that this Pokemon be one of the top-tier threats in the metagame.
I didn't even think of a curse Mega Venu! I posted Ideas for growth and SD earlier in the thread but curse is a great boosting move too.
 
#21
Can we please not discuss a retest for Breloom or Azu? First off, we have no idea if Mega Venu is even going to stay or not, and even if it does, that's still only one solid defensive check for the duo: Amoonguss gets dicked by Yache Berry Natural Gift and Ice Punch respectively. Look, generally speaking, the metagame is better off without those two, and unbanning them AGAIN after making a big deal over suspecting and banning them makes the tier look bad, like we're confused.
I don't like this argument, UU is volatile as hell the way drops and rises work right now so who cares if "we look confused" Surely this tier is allowed to be a little "confused" when a OU RMT can cause the entire UU tier to change. I don't even particularly care much about either mon but not testing potentially once again fine mons (again, not saying they are) to save face or something feels off to me.
 
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Kitten Milk

[22:59:31] <KittenUU> 241 of which are fellacious
#22
hi just here to the share the fun and popular opinion that m-venu and m-diancie are both busted and unfun


saying "scizor counters m-diancie so it's fine" reflects an apparent lack of ever trying to use a scizor to "counter" m-diancie. not only does scizor have to fear the (very common) hp fire on switchin, even power gem literally does 70-75% damage. moreover, the urgency of clicking BP that diancie creates once scizor is in makes for some very easy synergistic team building, as you can just stack threats that take advantage of BP locked (or non-locked scizor) -- the obvious one being magneton, but chand / r-h / entei / ape etc etc work in similar ways. M-diancie also has the opposite of 4MSS so it can very easily chuck on protect to scout against scizors as well.

in fact, saying "scizor counters m-diancie" is literally as ridiculous as saying "m-diancie counters scizor". neither can switch in on each other, and both have moves to OHKO the other -- while scizor has priority, this priority is easily taken advantage of by the rest of the team.

m-venu is simply put just too good. there are so few safe switchins -- which isn't a new thing for UU at all, obviously, but m-venu takes it to the next level because there are so few things in the tier that can actually expect to OHKO it. similar to diancie, m-venu's weaknesses (flying and psychic) are highly exploitable and often reside on choice-locked or essentially mono-attacking mons. If you manage to safely get in your z-bb bat or latias or whatever without getting chunked below half, you then face the very likely scenario of being pursuit trapped, losing momentum, etc.

ultimately I think both of these pokemon create situations in which -- in any one given instance -- they seem potentially controllable. but the sum total of the viable sets they can run (many of which are still under-explored) and the ease with which they are supported by the rest of the team to become unstoppable make them unbalanced in a way similar to gen 5 victini -- the counterplay that sounds simple on paper in practice is over centralizing and crumbles in reality.
 
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