np: USUM UU Stage 8 - Diamonds From Sierra Leone

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I don't like this argument, UU is volatile as hell the way drops and rises work right now so who cares if "we look confused" Surely this tier is allowed to be a little "confused" when a OU RMT can cause the entire UU tier to change. I don't even particularly care much about either mon but not testing potentially once again fine mons (again, not saying they are) to save face or something feels off to me.
We just banned one of those things. And now we have two new things which are questionably healthy for the Meta. And it’s entirely possible they’ll just rise again, which means the same mons are likely to go get banned again.

We let the meta settle, see what’s up, then make decisions from there. It’s not “saving face”, it’s letting things take more than three days for threats which were already nightmares to handle.

Tl;dr: stfu about retests and focus on the current drops.
(That’s not directed at you quoted dude, just a general statement)
 

eaglehawk

I COULD BE BANNED!
We just banned one of those things. And now we have two new things which are questionably healthy for the Meta. And it’s entirely possible they’ll just rise again, which means the same mons are likely to go get banned again.

We let the meta settle, see what’s up, then make decisions from there. It’s not “saving face”, it’s letting things take more than three days for threats which were already nightmares to handle.

Tl;dr: stfu about retests and focus on the current drops.
(That’s not directed at you quoted dude, just a general statement)
Broken checks broken let's make it Gen VI OU here 8)

So, from my experience on the ladder, Venusaur is really, really versatile right now and makes Offense and Balance really good. The tank can run so many sets to the point where it's kind of hard to prepare for it. Sets that check the Specially Attacking version lose to Swords Dance. Between Physical, Special, and some form of Leech Seed, Venu is really hard to answer unless you're genuinely packing Psychic or Flying STAB.

In all honesty, this is what we deserve for bitching about Serperior all the time.
 

Moutemoute

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Time to give my thoughts on this shifts !

Amoonguss
Great Pokemon overall even if I think that with Venusaur-Mega in the same tier, is kinda though for Amoonguss to shine as much as before. But Spore and Regenerator or always really good things.

Diancie-Mega
This is probably the biggest change we got. Diancie-Mega is an absolutely amazing threat which can grant a plethora of utility (Stealth Rocks, Mixed Wallbreaker, Lame Game Sweeper with Rock Polish, Stallbreaker with Sub+Endeavor or just straight up set-up Sweeper with Sharpen and Calm Mind).
I think it's still too early to tell if whether or not this Pokemon is broken or unhealthy for the tier but it sure put a lot of pression on the Underused. There is a huge surge of Pokemon to deal with Diancie-Mega like Flash Cannon Klefki, Bronzong, Empoleon with Shuca Berry.

I personally have tested a strange CM Diancie-Mega which can mess around with Stall pretty easily :


Diancie-Mega @ Diancite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Calm Mind
- Diamond Storm
- Moonblast
- Earth Power

• 252 Atk Diancie-Mega Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 346-408 (48.4 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
• 4 SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 219-258 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
• +1 4 SpA Diancie-Mega Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Filter Aggron-Mega: 183-216 (53.3 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Really fun to use. You basically just have to weaken Aggron-Mega and then it's trully easy to punch holes into fat and defensive teams.

Mamoswine
Mamo finnaly came back to us and it's cool. It's as good as it was in the past with 2 amazing and complementary STAB. The rise of Pokemon like Bronzong does not help it but it's still a really good Pokemon especially in HO even if it's not as good vs Volt-Turn than before (with the rise of Gliscor, Electric types like Manectric-Mega and Raikou are becoming much more threatening).

Venusaur-Mega
Like the rise of Serperior, I think nobody had anticipated the drop of this big boy in Underused. I've tested it and it's really really REALLY good in balance or fat Bulky Offense. It's amazing Bulk coupled with this typing and ability Thick Fat allow it to check a lot of Pokemon with a lot of ease and even if it lacks of Recovery (only 8 PP on Synthesis which is kinda unfortunate) it's still does an amazing job.

I fell in love with the SD set which I think is one of its more underrated set :


Venusaur-Mega @ Venusaurite
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Synthesis
- Petal Blizzard
- Earthquake

136 Speed allow it to outspeed Adamant Max Speed Scizor and Jolly Crawdaunt. The remaining EV are put in Atk and HP.
Really good Win Con overall that mess around with the actual Metagame.

EDIT for Venusaur-Mega :

I just tried out Growth Venusaur-Mega and it's even dumber than the Swords Dance one.


Venusaur-Mega @ Venusaurite
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 208 HP / 252 SpA / 48 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Growth
- Synthesis
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb

48 Speed allow it to outspeed Suicune. You can put 56 to outspeed Adamant Crawdaunt but tbh it's not worthy since Venusaur-Mega doesn't give a shit about. With this set, Venusaur-Mega can put a lot of pressure on Stall team because even things like Crobat can be pressure (Stealth Rocks and Sludge Bomb which does about 25-30% to max HP Crobat).

Some Examples :



Didn't save the replay too bad. But basically, I put some pressure on Crobat with Bronzong Stealth Rock & Gyro Ball + Scarf Pursuit Krook. When I got rid off it, it opened the dours to Venusaur-Mega which just have too Growth / Synthesis then Sweep.

Another example which shows how good Venusaur-Mega can be, it takes some hits with ease and the oppo can't do anything. Scizor was a bad answer since I have Tentacruel + Flame Body Moltres : Venusaur-Mega bae



Other Pokemon which became better with this shifts :


Cobaltion and Lucario enjoy the rise of Gliscor. Steelium Z is atm their best set because it allows them to break through Amoonguss and Venusaur-Mega.

• +2 252 Atk Cobalion Corkscrew Crash (160 BP) vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 339-400 (95.7 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
• +2 252 Atk Cobalion Corkscrew Crash (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Amoonguss: 432-508 (100 - 117.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Black Sludge recovery
• +2 252 Atk Lucario Corkscrew Crash (175 BP) vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 424-501 (119.7 - 141.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• +2 252 Atk Lucario Corkscrew Crash (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Amoonguss: 540-636 (125 - 147.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Black Sludge recovery


Scarf Krook is really good right now. It can Pursuit Trap Pokemon like Bronzong and Chandelure which became more common but it can also threaten Steel type like Empoleon and Klefki.


Electric Types Pokemon loved the rise of Gliscor because they are now free to run HP Grass instead of HP Ice which make them very tricky to face because you can't send anymore your Swampert, Quagsire, Rhyperior or Mamoswine for free versus them.


Steel Types are more than ever a necessity when you build a team if you didn't want to be rekt by Diancie-Mega. Bronzong has become in few days a staple in a lot of team because of it's Steel Type, it's ability Levitate and it's acces to Stealth Rock.


With the rise of Steel Types, Fire Types like CM Chandelure and Flynium-Z Moltres became even better. Chandelure can come on Bronzong with ease and Sub on it while Moltres can threten a huge part of the Underused thanks to its typing.


TL;DR : I really like this shifts, it brings some massive and deep changes to the tier. Even if some Pokemon may be a little bit too much to handle (*cough* Diancie-Mega *cough-cough*) it's nice to see the Underused changing.
 
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Jaajgko

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Why quickban, especially mega diancie when scizor is so prevalent. Theres no real reason not to give the mons all at least a few days in the tier, to see how they pan out. At worst they get suspected later on, the tier being chaos for a few days wont be a huge deal.
Diancie-Mega isn't supposed to sweep or anything, its main role is to be a wallbreaker (but still manages to sweep). So yes it is revenge killed by the mon that has the biggest usage in the tier but it doesn't switch on it. Regarding its switches, there aren't plenty of them. With just Moonblast Diamond Storm and Earth Power and the 4 252 252 hasty spread, its switch-ins are limited to 180 SpD Hippowdon, Blissey, Sylveon, Venusaur-Mega, Amoonguss and Bronzong. First Blissey and Sylveon really are pretty passive so offensive builds can't really afford them, Hippowdon and Amoonguss are okay-ish but kinda lose momentum too. The problem is, Diancie has a free fourth move slot, and if you already have rocks you're pretty free to add what you want, wether it is Psychic to get the 2HKO on Venusaur and Amoonguss, Calm Mind for Sylveon and even to beat Venusaur and Amoonguss if you pair it with Power Gem, and even Magnet Rise to beat Hippowdon. You can also run HP Fire for max HP Leftovers Scizor, or change the spread to 2HKO Blissey with Diamond Storm. The only mon you can't break through by changing the last move slot is Bronzong but it can easily be trapped by CB Scizor or Krookodile. On top of that, with the option of Calm Mind and the defense boosts it can get with Diamond Storm, it's pretty hard to revenge kill. Here are some calcs :
252 Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Aqua Tail vs. +2 0 HP / 0- Def Diancie-Mega: 136-160 (56.4 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Diancie-Mega: 212-252 (87.9 - 104.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Latias Hidden Power Steel vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Diancie-Mega: 144-172 (59.7 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Krookodile Earthquake vs. +2 0 HP / 0- Def Diancie-Mega: 156-186 (64.7 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I think it should be quickbanned, hits too hard and can adapt its set to beat some of its counters and thanks to its great speed of 110, its bulk and dual typing, it can pretty easily come in on a switch or as a revenge killer, and punishes heavily choice-locked mons on offense. The only downside of it is that Moonblast for the most part hits the tier for neutral damage and most defensive mons are water types, so it generally has to come after the opposing team has taken prior damage.
 
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Diancie-Mega isn't supposed to sweep or anything, its main role is to be a wallbreaker (but still manages to sweep). So yes it is revenge killed by the mon that has the biggest usage in the tier but it doesn't switch on it. Regarding its switches, there aren't plenty of them. With just Moonblast Diamond Storm and Earth Power and the 4 252 252 hasty spread, its switch-ins are limited to 180 SpD Hippowdon, Blissey, Sylveon, Venusaur-Mega, Amoonguss and Bronzong. First Blissey and Sylveon really are pretty passive so offensive builds can't really afford them, Hippowdon and Amoonguss are okay-ish but kinda lose momentum too. The problem is, Diancie has a free fourth move slot, and if you already have rocks you're pretty free to add what you want, wether it is Psychic to get the 2HKO on Venusaur and Amoonguss, Calm Mind for Sylveon and even to beat Venusaur and Amoonguss if you pair it with Power Gem, and even Magnet Rise to beat Hippowdon. On top of that, with the option of Calm Mind and the defense boosts it can get with Diamond Storm, it's pretty hard to revenge kill. Here are some calcs :
252 Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Aqua Tail vs. +2 0 HP / 0- Def Diancie-Mega: 136-160 (56.4 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Diancie-Mega: 212-252 (87.9 - 104.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Latias Hidden Power Steel vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Diancie-Mega: 144-172 (59.7 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Krookodile Earthquake vs. +2 0 HP / 0- Def Diancie-Mega: 156-186 (64.7 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I think it should be quickbanned, hits too hard and can adapt its set to beat some of its counters and thanks to its great speed of 110, its bulk and dual typing, it can pretty easily come in on a switch or as a revenge killer, and punishes heavily choice-locked mons on offense. The only downside of it is that Moonblast for the most part hits the tier for neutral damage and most defensive mons are water types, so it generally has to come after the opposing team has taken prior damage.
I disagree that Diancie is PURELY a wallbreaker. Diancie CAN easily sweep with the rock polish set. If the enemy doesn't possess a Scizor or their Scizor is voided (Magneton says hi!~) Then Rock Polish can easily roll over offensive builds. Conventional revenge killing methods outside of Scizor's bullet punch are rendered useless. it hits an ungodly 700 speed with one rock polish, leaving every scarfer in the tier in the dust. This means mons like Krook and even just things faster than usual sets like Mega Aerodactyl now get circles run around them by the rock. Non Bullet Punch Priority doesn't snuff it either, as with one Diamond Storm Boost, the Aqua jet of Crawdaunt fails to kill it and our restablished Mamoswine's Ice Shard does pitiful damage to +2 Diancie. This set loses to Scizor, arguably easier than the other sets even, but it forces non-bulky builds to either run Scizor or a bulky mon if they want to handle it. This set alone creates a lot of constraints on offense building, which when partnered with the potency the other sets retain, makes this thing a nightmare to build around. Basically, offensive builds without methods of bullet punching this mon are going to have an absurdly rough time against it's sets.

Edit: Thank you Juuno for reminding me that Scizor can't even switch in on Diancie more than once due to taking around 60% from Diamond Storm on more offensive variants of Scizor. This makes the offense vs RP Diancie matchup even more of an uphill battle. And the fact it can setup on so many mons like Hydreigon and Mega Pidgeot isn't helping the case of it's balance either.
"Why not just run Fat Scizor?" They say, wondering why you don't just EV to tank Diamond Storm
Well, for one HP fire still blows you back from Mega Diancie and it can still get trapped. And two....
0 Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. +2 0 HP / 0- Def Diancie-Mega: 168-204 (69.7 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Diamond Storm means Bulky Scizor can't even kill this thing on it's own.

So yeah, Most Offensive builds are very screwed against Diancie in general, but even moreso against Rock Polish if they don't have an offensive Scizor that they play INCREDIBLY careful with.
 
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Jaajgko

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Yeah that's why I said it's not supposed to but still manages to, with the aforementioned defense and calm mind boosts. Never tested Rock Polish tho
 

Chloe

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After playing extensively over the last 48 hours, I'm honestly of the opinion that Mega Venusaur is as problematic if not slightly more problematic than Mega Diancie. It's a massive sponge that comes in on almost any attacker due to its great typing, paired with Thick Fat and all-around great bulk. Unless you're running Latias or something like Flyinium Z Crobat / Moltres / Talonflame, it's quite difficult to break through. The latter three threats are sometimes hard to fit or justify due to their massive Stealth Rock weaknesses. Thus Mega Venusaur has made offense very difficult to pull off effectively. In addition to this, one of Mega Venusaur's larger weaknesses in its Synthesis PP is not easily depleted when you're unable to regain health or extend the match longer yourself, a characteristic of most offense. It would be easy to argue that Latias is a sufficient check for Mega Venusaur, but considering its weakness to Pursuit and the emergence of cores containing Mega Venusaur + Pursuit, it is definitely arguably a challenge to justify it remaining based off of this offense invalidation alone. On a much minor note, It is also able to be 2HKO'd by offensive sets after Stealth Rock or Poison Damage.

252+ SpA Venusaur-Mega Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 124-147 (41 - 48.6%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

When it comes to defensive archetypes, Mega Venusaur's immunity to Toxic and resistance to common balance staples just solidifies its place as the massive annoyance than it is. This is by far the best Mega forme for Balance at this current point in time, an archetype that wasn't struggling in previous recent iterations of the metagame but is now thriving due to this colossal threat. As it stands however, Balance is virtually forced to run Mega Venusaur to check other Mega Venusaur, which isn't putting any Balance user at an apparent disadvantage; however, it does make Balance vs Balance play very dull and unhealthy. Flying-types and Latias are options for answers again but considering the potency of Mega Venusaur, forgoing it is pretty much a mistake, and these Pokemon don't really appreciate switching into Mega Venusaur's moves repeatedly, especially considering Sludge Bomb hits rather hard and Sleep Powder is also available. Then there's just stall which unless it's running Moltres or Crobat, has no way to break through it.
252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor U-turn vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 147-174 (40.4 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Altaria-Mega Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 76-90 (20.9 - 24.7%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 156+ SpD Venusaur-Mega: 142-168 (39.1 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 248 HP / 156+ SpD Venusaur-Mega: 132-156 (36.3 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 79-94 (21.7 - 25.8%) -- 2.9% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 132-156 (36.3 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Krookodile Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 118-141 (32.5 - 38.8%) -- 98.7% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Manectric-Mega Overheat vs. 248 HP / 156+ SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 102-120 (28 - 33%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 127-150 (34.9 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
It at least checks the majority of Pokemon listed on the VR without much effort, anything not listed can usually be dealt with using an alternate set. This is only in the first two days of the Pokemon being used. People are conjuring sets up like Amnesia which pretty much walls Moltres with only HP investment and nothing else, after one Amnesia. It also walls Choice Scarf Latias and other non-CM variants without any investment after one Amnesia. Mega Venusaur should opt for Special Defense investment if it plans to effectively take on both these threats especially Flyinium Z Moltres variants.
252 SpA Moltres Hurricane vs. +2 248 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 152-180 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Latias Psychic vs. +2 0 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 114-134 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO



When it comes to Mega Diancie, this Pokemon is also incredibly difficult for defensive archetypes to handle effectively, especially Stall, due to the lack of solid switch-ins to it. Mega Venusaur and Amoonguss get 2HKO'd by Psychic, unless either runs maximum HP and Special Defense which isn't optimal by any means. Nothing listed here can reliably switch-in to it with hazards up or minimal chip damage.
252 SpA Diancie-Mega Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Venusaur-Mega: 146-174 (40.1 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Diancie-Mega Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 192-226 (44.4 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
0 Atk Diancie-Mega Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 295-348 (41.3 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Diancie-Mega Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 346-408 (48.4 - 57.1%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
If Mega Diancie runs the latter spread of 252 Attack, it fails to break other threats you can see on Stall.
4 SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 40 HP / 216 SpD Alomomola: 204-240 (42.4 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Hippowdon: 163-193 (38.8 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 136-162 (32.3 - 38.5%) -- 2.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Diancie-Mega Diamond Storm vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 148-175 (40.7 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 SpA Diancie-Mega Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 180+ SpD Empoleon: 148-176 (39.7 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Diancie-Mega Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 106-126 (29.1 - 34.6%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Regardless, Stall can just run Hippowdon, albeit it often wouldn't like to; however, if it opts for this it's able to deal with any variant of Mega Diancie other than Magnet Rise effectively.
252 SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Hippowdon: 192-226 (45.7 - 53.8%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Hippowdon: 177-208 (42.2 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 160-190 (38.1 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
This is straying from the point though. Mega Diancie still has a very limited amount of defensive switch-ins, and hence Stall is yet again impaired tremendously due to Mega Diancie too. The issue arises for Diancie when it's facing offense. Mega Diancie struggles immensely against offensive archetypes due to the fact a base speed of 110 isn't as amazing when facing the multitude of Choice Scarf users and naturally faster Pokemon within the metagame. To alleviate this, it can run a Rock Polish set, but it's important to realise how detrimental forgoing a moveslot for this over coverage is. Without necessarily preparing, most offensive teams have multiple Pokemon that either outspeed it or live any of its attacks well and deal with it due to Rock/Fairy having commonly seen type weaknesses. The issue of it "2HKOing the metagame" isn't as large of an issue in this regard, given it doesn't need to switch-in and take two before hitting. Mega Diancie can't switch-in on most offensive threats.

It's important to recognise that without certain coverage Mega Diancie is set-up fodder for or just walled by a few common defensive threats. Without Hidden Power Fire, bulky Swords Dance Scizor can take advantage of it; without Psychic, Amoonguss and Mega Venusaur can heal themselves up to full and hurt incoming switch-ins. Without Rock Polish, it's ineffective against most offenses. Without maximum Attack investment, it's walled by Blissey and becomes a much less effective stallbreaker. It relies on all of these factors to bust through opposing teams. This shouldn't be a reason to restrict its viability, as its diversity and ability to deal with whatever it needs to depending on the set is amazing, and shouldn't be minimised; however, considering that Mega Venusaur can essentially deal with most Pokemon with one standard set, a difference in effectiveness should be noted.

This is very early in the new metagame, so general perception might change on Mega Venusaur within the next few days, but as it stands, I'd argue Mega Venusaur is equally if not more painful to face than Mega Diancie; however, both are problematic enough to be on the chopping block soon if metagame trends remain as is.
 
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After playing extensively over the last 48 hours, I'm honestly of the opinion that Mega Venusaur is as problematic if not slightly more problematic than Mega Diancie. It's a massive sponge that comes in on almost any attacker due to its great typing, paired with Thick Fat and all-around great bulk. Unless you're running Latias or something like Flyinium Z Crobat / Moltres / Talonflame, it's quite difficult to break through.
To build on this point a bit, setup Mega Venusaur has sets which exploit some the mons Chloe mentions above. Kitten Milk has been using this Curse + Amnesia Mega Venusaur set to set up on and defeat mons which one would expect to be splashable checks to Mega Venusaur:
Venusaur-Mega @ Venusaurite
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Synthesis
- Curse
- Petal Blizzard
- Amnesia

While this set appears bad on paper, it is effective in practice. Here are two replays in which Curse Venusaur breaks through teams with multiple dedicated answers to Venusaur:
In this replay, after Moltres dies, Venusaur is able to set up on Crobat and, without any Amnesia boosts, breaks through Crobat, Psychic Mega Diancie, and a strange Latias set.

Here again Venusaur sets up on Crobat. Since +6 Petal Blizzard deals 30% to Crobat, it is unable to Roost safely, so Venusaur wins 1v1. Thanks to an Amnesia boost it is able to avoid being revenged by CM Latias, Specs Magneton, and Mega Diancie.

Curse Venusaur may not be the strongest set in UU, but the fact that there exists a Mega Venusaur set that beats non-Taunt Crobat and non-CM + Psychic Latias should be alarming. My definition of a broken mon is one that can effectively exploit the vast majority of a tier and which demands specific teambuilding adaptations to provide counterplay. The existence of Curse Mega Venusaur demonstrates that the list of mons that cannot be exploited by Mega Venusaur is even shorter than the already short list in Chloe's post, and we should bear this in mind when deciding how to move forward with the tier.
 
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Hilomilo

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(Diancie-Mega) @ Diancite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Diamond Storm
- Moonblast
- Earth Power
- Protect
I can't necessarily vouch for Mega Diancie being a Pokemon I think is too healthy for the metagame, though I would like to talk about a fun little set I've been messing around with lately that I think is surprisingly consistent. It's no secret that Scizor is one of the more notable means of offensively combating Mega Diancie, and its Choice Band set still remains the most used. Due to this, using Protect on Diancie can allow it to adequately scout out whichever move Scizor's band set locks itself into (there's a good chance it'll set up as Diancie protects if it's SD), which is really useful on specifically more balanced builds the Rock/Fairy-type can fit surprisingly well on. You can work around your Scizor vulnerability after using Protect by either staying in on its locked U-turn and damaging it a fair amount with Diamond Storm, or with some proper prediction, finding a reliable switch-in to Bullet Punch or aggressively doubling in on whatever the opponent is expected to bring out. Using Protect to scout Choice Scarf Hydreigon Flash Cannons or to scout out scarfers like Infernape and Krookodile is also a pretty great tool this set can provide you with. While ultimately, Protect may not be its absolute best option if it wishes to break past as much of the metagame as possible, I think it can be a really useful tool that allows it to circumvent some of the counterplay that's been rising these past couple days.

For reference, here are some replays of the set in action. Disclaimer though, SubSeed Serperior's on my team since these are from predicted tier shift room tours from about a week ago, though I still think they adequately show what Protect is capable of accomplishing:

Replay 1 - Here, Protect does exactly what it aims to accomplish in allowing me to safely bring Empoleon in on Scizor's Choice-locked Bullet Punch. Empoleon gets a Toxic off on Serperior because of the free turn this generates, which proves to be pretty valuable later on in the match. Mega Diancie also scouts a scarfed Hydreigon's Flash Cannon for what it's worth, though since it was the last Pokemon alive on the opposing team and I had a scarf ape this didn't matter much and I just sacked Diancie.

Replay 2 - Ignore the opponent's trash talk in this replay for a significantly less annoying viewing experience lol. Anyways, I don't correctly predict the first time Diancie uses Protect on Scizor but it secures the late-game win in allowing regular Slowbro (which is super underrated btw) in play to get off a fairly important Toxic on Rotom-C. It also successfully forces the opponent into 50/50 situations whereas without Protect it wouldn't, which reflects the use of the move over something like Hidden Power Fire or Rock Polish.

Hope this was an enjoyable read! I honestly don't have a formulated opinion on what should happen to Diancie though I definitely think this set is worth trying before it possibly leaves us following a council vote. Thanks so much for reading! :)
 

Freeroamer

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Another perk of the above set that I don’t think got mentioned but should be noted is that it’s a safe way to punish greedy Stealth Rock on Diancie. This is most prominent when playing against Hippowdon as no one expects you to stay in but can also help vs healthier Swampert etc. I think Stealth Rock vs an unrevealed Diancie is a horrible play regardless because you run the risk of stuff like sub but it’s definitely something that can be abused, particularly if you’ve revealed the other 3 moves and the opponent has no reason to expect sub or protect.
 

Diancie-Mega @ Diancite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 76 HP / 252 SpA / 180 Spe
Rash Nature
- Rock Polish
- Earth Power
- Diamond Storm
- Moonblast

Been using RP diancie a lot when getting back into the tier. I think it might not be its best set objectively, but it has some really great trade offs that make it viable/add a wrinkle.

RP Diancie needs more support. It almost always needs at least 1 strong fire type AND a Scizor lure such as HP Fire Lati in order to draw in steel types. That said, the additional power gained from going Rash + the speed to outrun nearly every threat in the tier makes it really hard to handle. After one RP, it can blow through weakened teams as long as no Crawdaunt/Scizor are alive. I think this is a really solid set that more people should turn to in the future as an option on HO
 

Hogg

grubbing in the ashes
is a Tournament Directoris a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris an Administrator
UU & Tour Head
Just to give everyone an update, the council will be voting this week on the new elements to determine if any of them deserve a quickban. Expect to hear more on this toward the end of the week. Also, please note that we are solely voting on whether any of these drops are so overwhelming that they need to be immediately quickbanned. We may still move forward with a public suspect test even if the council decides not to quickban.

Regarding UU Open, the TD team is working with tier leaders to ensure that the tournament does not prevent TLs from making the tiering decisions that are best for their tier. This is why the tier shifts were not included in this round of UU Open, and why the TLs of RU and NU will have similar options for round 2 of their tours as well. This is definitely a good thing: I would much prefer us to make the right decision now than make a hasty decision for fear of damaging UU Open/Snake/UU Majors/UU Champs.

As for my own thoughts...

Diancie

I actually really kind of like Diancie, but I'm struggling to call it balanced. Fantastic mixed attacking stats and a great offensive movepool (plus two of the most spammable STABs around in Diamond Storm and Moonblast) just make Diancie a nightmare to switch into or properly play around. We have other wallbreakers in the tier, of course, some of which are even scarier to switch into than Diancie... but Diancie's offensive prowess is also backed by an excellent defensive typing, a great ability, decent defensive stats and a Speed tier that makes it likely to be as fast as or faster than 4-5 'mons on just about every team. (Yes, including many offensive teams—to all the posters that have said that Diancie isn't great versus offense, that has not been my experience at all.) Heck, it even has Pursuit resistance, so that the things like Aero and Scizor that do force it out can't really do anything to stop it from coming in again later. I'm having fun toying with Diancie, but I think it probably should go.

(Sets I've tested: MagRise + 3 attacks, Protect + 3 attacks, SubEndeavor. I'll probably mess around with Rock Polish or Calm Mind next.)

Venusaur

MVenu is a bit thornier for me. This thing is a beast, yes... strong and fat and sure to be a staple on everything from full stall to BO. It's especially good for balance teams, as it checks a myriad of threats in the tier without giving up momentum. Is it broken, though? For all its bulk, being forced to rely on Synthesis for healing does hold it back over the course of a longer game: hazards, sand, burns and assorted chip just forces it to burn through its healing quicker than anticipated in my experience. Its offensive presence is quite good, but definitely isn't so insane that it's difficult to check defensively, and I find that you don't necessarily need a Psychic or Flying type to break through it unless you're playing balls out offense, as you can wear it down over the course of a game until it can no longer check what it needs to check. Basically, it's a 'mon that's really really good, almost certain to be one of the top picks in the tier, but I also feel like it rewards decent play.

I also have only been playing with the three attacks + synth set so far (and that has been mostly what I've encountered on opposing teams, too). I've built a team with fully defensive Venu with leech but haven't tested it, and I'll try out one of the boosting sets as well soon. Perhaps as I explore some of the other sets, that will shift my opinion.

My own votes may change after more testing, but as of right now, I plan to vote to quickban Diancie-Mega, but to keep Venusaur-Mega in the tier for the time being (and potentially have a public suspect of it in the near future).
 
I thought I’d weigh in with my opinion on Diancie and Venusaur, the most controversial drops by a long way.

Mega Diancie first:
781D7FA3-D3D2-435B-B323-421EEE17908C.gif

The set I’ve found most problematic and fundamentally broken is SubEndeavor with Moonblast + HP Fire. It beats potential answers with ease, subbing freely on a huge portion of the meta and selecting the appropriate coverage/weakening ‘counters’ with Endeavor. This set also has a fantastic stall matchup, 1v1ing Blissey if it switches in and beating Alomomola/Quag with ease. This set pairs really nicely with Pursuit users too, which pick off checks such as Amoongus and Blissey that might otherwise be able to recover after an Endeavor and remove stuff like Bronzong for Diancie. Diancie has a plethora of threatening sets from max attack Diamond Storm sets which really fuck with offense (remember that our two best choice scarf users are dragons) by restricting revenge killing to CM sets that tear through bulkier builds. Similarly to Venusaur, this mon 2HKOs the vast majority of the tiers with its stabs and has solid tools to get round the rest, depending on what the team needs. I would support a Diancie-Mega Quickban with a view to possibly retesting it in the future as I feel Diancie has already begun to warp the tier around itself, based off my experiences of ladder play, building post-shifts and friendlies.

Mega Venusaur is next up:
B3E312F7-CF26-458F-9461-6638DD09578A.png

This mon’s presence in the tier really reminds me of a pokemon NU recently banned, er, Venusaur. I know they’re literally the same mon but the comparisons don’t end there, oh no! Both blanket checked a huge portion of the tier through massive bulk and threatening offensive stats and coverage, both had the option of running offensive boosting sets (iirc it was the Z-Celebrate set that was the deciding factor, if not a huge influence on Venusaur’s NU ban) and both centralized the tier around themselves. Venusaur is forcing offensive builds to run viable but not outstanding picks like Crobat and Moltres, the two most consistent answers to defensive Venu sets in order to break it. Even these supposedly consistent answers can be exploited through the use of boosting sets, as Clefable showcased above. I believe offensive sets are massively underexplored at the moment and allowing this exploration to take place during possibly the most critical time in the UU calendar could have extreme adverse effects on the UU Open. Therefore I would (again) support a Venusaur-Mega Quickban with a retest ASAP. This mon definitely could have a future in the tier but we clearly don’t know how good Venu really is in UU yet.

On Open:
I’ve advocated for quickbanning the two biggest drops on the grounds that currently we shouldn’t take any risks with Open running. We have two mons that’ve already established themselves as top tier threats and are clearly open to reinvention and experimentation in order to beat their traditional checks and counters. I think we should allow the community to gauge the true potential of these mons under a controlled environment rather than risk destabilizing the tournament scene at the precise moment that we need stability the most. Therefore I think QB -> Retest is preferable to a straight suspect test on both of these mons, as a straight suspect means they are technically UU for the duration of the suspect and therefore legal in tournament play. As for precedent, this was exactly the case in September of last year when Mega Hera and Mega Gallade were quickbanned and retested in order to (in Hogg ’s words) “give the tier a chance to adjust to the new threats and provide an opportunity for major UU tours such as UU Open and the Smogon Snake Draft Tour to proceed without undue interference.” We should strive also for consistency in our tiering decisions and QB’ing both achieves just that.

A few last thoughts:
Amoongus is in a really funny place right now, a few weeks ago I would’ve given an arm and a leg for it to drop but the fact that Venu and Serp moved with it as well as the Bremarill bans leaves it in a really funny place: clearly outshined by a top tier threat while losing the 3 threats it was mostly used for.
Mamo is fantastic as ever, will continue to threaten the now resurgent balance and provide HO with a better Mane switch in. However it isn’t a huge fan of the increase in Bronzong usage to counteract Diancie, one of the only Mamo answers that fits fatter teams.
Serp definitely became a lot more manageable, sorry to see it go. Z-Hyperbeam would almost definitely have become the dominant set had it stayed, but alas...

TL;DR: QB and retest both, both have potential to become over-centralizing (as we’ve seen recently) and it’s just the smart option with Open running currently and Snake waiting patiently around the corner
 

Kitten Milk

[22:59:31] <KittenUU> 241 of which are fellacious
To build on this point a bit, setup Mega Venusaur has sets which exploit some the mons Chloe mentions above. Kitten Milk has been using this Curse + Amnesia Mega Venusaur set to set up on and defeat mons which one would expect to be splashable checks to Mega Venusaur:
Venusaur-Mega @ Venusaurite
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Synthesis
- Curse
- Petal Blizzard
- Amnesia

While this set appears bad on paper, it is effective in practice. Here are two replays in which Curse Venusaur breaks through teams with multiple dedicated answers to Venusaur:
In this replay, after Moltres dies, Venusaur is able to set up on Crobat and, without any Amnesia boosts, breaks through Crobat, Psychic Mega Diancie, and a strange Latias set.

Here again Venusaur sets up on Crobat. Since +6 Petal Blizzard deals 30% to Crobat, it is unable to Roost safely, so Venusaur wins 1v1. Thanks to an Amnesia boost it is able to avoid being revenged by CM Latias, Specs Magneton, and Mega Diancie.

Curse Venusaur may not be the strongest set in UU, but the fact that there exists a Mega Venusaur set that beats non-Taunt Crobat and non-CM + Psychic Latias should be alarming. My definition of a broken mon is one that can effectively exploit the vast majority of a tier and which demands specific teambuilding adaptations to provide counterplay. The existence of Curse Mega Venusaur demonstrates that the list of mons that cannot be exploited by Mega Venusaur is even shorter than the already short list in Chloe's post, and we should bear this in mind when deciding how to move forward with the tier.
echoing this as i am currently literally rank 2 on the ladder because of this set, which is broken as fuck

you set up on or set up with momentum on 90% of the mons in s and a rank and the only things that really prevent you from doing so are taunt bat, np toge, fast mons with haze that don't die to a petal blizzard, and other mega venusaurs. there are many archetypes (trick room teams, some HO teams, a lot of balance teams, most stall teams) where you can literally just lead mega venu, start boosting, dodge a crit, and win.

the reason venusaur seems manageable to a lot of people rn is because 99% of people are running the synth + 3 special attacks set -- so it's pretty easy to know what you can reliably switch into. However, physical, SD, and win-con double defensive boosting mega venu are all extremely solid sets that easily take advantage of people's mindless switchins to blissey or bat and sweep because of them.
 

eaglehawk

I COULD BE BANNED!
Curse is still overhyped. The issue Hogg pointed out, the Synthesis as main recovery, and its susceptibility to Burn i.e. Scald matchups, still make the set not as consistent as its Synth + 3 Attack set. The only reason it works for you and pokemonisfun, kitten milk, is because you had an entire team composition built around supporting and patching up its weaknesses (which happened to be stall, unsurprisingly). Euphonos managed to make BD Marill work in Gen VI, but it certainly wasn't something that was overhyped as broken. Outside of stall compositions, Curse + Amnesia Venu is not effective because it's really slow to get started, which gives more offensive-oriented teams ample time to respond with threats that pressure it out.

Also, like you said, Curse + Amnesia is effective because no one actually knows what Venusaur does or what its most optimal set is. Since M-Venu is a more defensively oriented Pokemon, its effect on the meta in the long run isn't as clear as it is with Mega Diancie. You can certainly cheese wins in UU right now, but as the meta becomes more accustomed to Mega Venusaur (or not, it's not clear-cut right now), ways to beat Venusaur in general will emerge.

To give an example, RU right now is experiencing a really annoying set in the form of CM + Iron Defense M-Slowbro with Whirlpool and Rest. It sounds threatening on paper, but in the long run, people will better understand how to beat Slowbro, and by extension, how to beat its cheese sets.

Also, to some of the readers here that are newer to UU than others: don't take everything written by high-level players as gospel. While their reasons may be strongly evidence-based, it's reflective of a certain playstyle or unique teambuilding/setbuilding habit that they've developed over time. It's certainly nice anecdotal evidence either for or against a Pokemon's strength, but not one reflective of a Pokemon's uncompetitiveness, brokenness, etc.

EDIT: Also, as a fun aside, you can take advantage of Mega Diancie's Magic Bounce. Hippo or Swampert roaring against Mega Diancie is like a free slow U-Turn/Volt Switch out and allows you to gain offensive momentum for your team. :psysly:

EDIT 2: Don't let Curse Venu be the next Fury Cutter Scizor, or some dumb shit like that.
 
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echoing this as i am currently literally rank 2 on the ladder because of this set, which is broken as fuck

you set up on or set up with momentum on 90% of the mons in s and a rank and the only things that really prevent you from doing so are taunt bat, np toge, fast mons with haze that don't die to a petal blizzard, and other mega venusaurs. there are many archetypes (trick room teams, some HO teams, a lot of balance teams, most stall teams) where you can literally just lead mega venu, start boosting, dodge a crit, and win.

the reason venusaur seems manageable to a lot of people rn is because 99% of people are running the synth + 3 special attacks set -- so it's pretty easy to know what you can reliably switch into. However, physical, SD, and win-con double defensive boosting mega venu are all extremely solid sets that easily take advantage of people's mindless switchins to blissey or bat and sweep because of them.
Isn't this set like one of two Mega Venu sets that loses to scald burns? Will-o-wisp is a move commonly run that can bother this set as well. Moltres still beats this set pretty handily, and any boosting mons or taunt users that beat Mega Venusaur normally (Like Work-Up Pidge, NP Toge, Taunt Bat, CM psychics, etc.) will send this set flying. Not to mention a mono-attack Venu isn't really lategame material. it could easily get stalled out by a pressure mon, honorable mentions to Cro and Vincune who can win if they slam it with the scald burn I mentioned earlier. But even just subroosters like Kyurem and Moltres should win here. It also suffers from Venusaur's usual problem of only having synthesis as recovery. Sand, status, or even just whittling at it can force it to synthesis, and a bulkier team or a team with a solid resistance can honestly just....Wait curse Venu out. Not to mention Curse mega Venusaur is 100% Scizor Bait. With it's 4x resistance to grass, it can easily just SD Up in Venu's face. If it's defensive SD Scizor, it will more than likely be able to win the war of attrition when you both max out on stats. Where as Offensive SD Scizor can just start wailing on it by getting to +6 first and launching strong bug bites or even a Z bug move. Other boosting grass resists like Doublade and NP Celebi are also going to have a field day here. Even Mega Altaria, a mon who Mega Venusaur is supposed to counter, sees this set as free dragon dances while it sits comfortably in Venu's face with roost. Its not winning outright, but is an option some offensive teams use that can simply stall this Venu out.

But who wants to hear the most embarrassing stop to a boosting grass type in Pokemon history?
1531966361351.png

Curse Mega Venusaur 100% loses to Pyukumuku. Being uninvested in attack means that Venusaur physically cannot muscle past this mon.
0 Atk Venusaur-Mega Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 134-162 (42.6 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
And this is POWER WHIP, which is even stronger than petal blizzard, the move your typical curse Megavenu is using. Of course, you can try to invest in more attack to at least break Pyuku with Petal Blizzard, but at this point you're sacrificing the amount of bulk that allows Venu to setup safely on so many things.
1531966533625.png

Fellow Grass/Poison type Amoonguss is also a pretty safe and sturdy stop here, as it completely walls Megavenu's grass STAB while clear smogging away it's curse and amnesia boosts.

This ISN'T to say Curse Venu is a bad set, but it's absolutely not the set that should be considered for "what pushes Mega Venu over the edge." its not as good as it is on paper.

On the topic of Venu, I'd like to bring attention to one mon who I think does exceptionally well against most Mega Venusaur sets in general. An unspoken hero if you will.
1531966946265.png

Dragalge handly switches in on any Mega venusaur lacking Earthquake, completely walling it's other moves. Knock can annoy it if it's not carrying Z but it's no skin off of Dragalge's back. In turn, Specs or Z Draco Meteor threatens to OHKO Mega Venusaur from 90 with guarantee, even having the chance to KO it from 100% as well.
252+ SpA Adaptability Dragalge Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 328-386 (90.1 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 328-386 (90.1 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO


Anyways, I don't think Curse Mega Venusaur is what it's all hyped up to be. And I think the other sets are beatable too. Delving into weird options to do so isn't anything strange when there's new tiering shifts, not to mention that many of the options we already have, many of the mons we already use, well, already do the trick.
 
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Curse Venusaur has problems (as all mons do) but if you think SD Offensive Scizor or DD Altaria can set up alongside you, let alone counter you, you're in for a bad time.
They aren't counters by any means, but the fact they can take advantage of the fact a Venusaur is using an uninvested mono grass attack. It helps both these mons in waiting Venusaur out.

I'd also disagree that SD Scizor can't beat it
+6 0 Atk Venusaur-Mega Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 112-132 (39.8 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Some offensive Scizors run even more HP than this, and if you're boosting alongside it, you'll get to +6 and start wailing on Venu first. And you decent damage to it too with Bug STAB. Bug Z in particular can take big chunks out of it.

Alt doesn't outright win the 1v1, but it stalls Curse Megavenu of it's petal blizzards, considering you only have 24 to win the game with, this can be especially stressing on the Mega Venusaur.
 

Adaam

Light Machoke
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis the 8th Grand Slam Winner
I already said my thoughts on Mega Diancie, so I figured I'd share them on Mega Venusaur. The focus of this post will be on the 3 attacks + Synthesis set, which I think is the most viable of them all (either offensive or defensive work). I completely agree with Chloe and Silvio in that Mega Venusaur is too much for this tier to handle. If it's sole weakness (that's been mentioned in this thread) is being easy to chip then that is telling into how powerful it is. This is also, in my opinion, overblown, since stalling out Synthesis with any offensive team is nigh impossible since these types of teams don't have the staying power to handle 50+ turn games. Furthermore, STAB Giga Drain coming from a 122 base Special Attack lessens the need to use Synthesis and makes stalling it a lot harder than you'd think. You are unable to trade damage with it, like you would with other walls, with a bunch of Pokemon like Krookodile, Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Sharpedo, Empoleon etc, which resembles an old friend from UUBL in Conkeldurr.

The few things that do immediately pressure it struggle to switch in bar Kommo-o and Crobat. As mentioned before, its Special Attack is legit, and even uninvested Sludge Bombs dent things like Mega Pidgeot, Latias, Moltres, and Talonflame. As for defensive and balance teams, Chloe makes an excellent point in that it simply does not die due to the lack of firepower on these types of team and its Toxic immunity. Staples like Sylveon, Empoleon, bulky Scizor, Alomomola, Mega Aggron, Hippo, Scarf Hydreigon, etc barely touch it. Games will turn into 100+ turn stallfests of Venusaur walling the majority of the tier, which is something we should not allow. I hope council agrees and ends up banning it for the time being.
 
With Mega Diancie and Mamoswine in the tier I've been running Shuca Berry Empoleon to much success. It makes it much easier to check Diancie and can get you surprise kills on Mamoswine in a pinch if you really need it to: 252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 76 Def Shuca Berry Empoleon: 218-257 (58.6 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. The lack of leftovers is annoying but the extra security against Mega Diancie is worth it. Assault Vest Metagross is also really good right now. This is the set I've been using:
Metagross @ Assault Vest
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Atk / 96 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Zen Headbutt
- Pursuit
- Bullet Punch
- Meteor Mash

The EV's are not optimized as I am not good with that sort of thing (I'm using the spread from Gen 6 OU) but the idea is very simple. AV Metagross counters Mega Diancie and Specially Oriented Vega Venusaur sets with ease. Zen Headbutt could be dropped for Earthquake to hit steels but I've found that hitting Mega Venusaur is too important. This set is also amazing against Latias.

Rotom-Heat has also seen a resurgence with Mamoswine again in the tier but Rotom-H also checks Moltres and Scizor as well making it an amazing glue mon.

With Mega Venusaur in the tier I've found that on almost every offensive or balanced team I'm forced to run a psychic + flying type. Cores such as Crobat + Metagross or Latias + Moltres are needed in order to handle the beast. Strong ghosts such as Chandelure and Gengar are also helpful but are not nearly sufficient on their own.

I've noticed that the pokemon that has been effected more negatively than any other by the new shifts is Mega Altaria. It is extremely difficult for Mega Altaria to break through Mega Venusaur and it's not nearly as good as Mega Diancie. In addition Mamoswine provides yet another priority user that beats it and unlike Scizor it isn't trappable by Magneton.
 

Kitten Milk

[22:59:31] <KittenUU> 241 of which are fellacious
Isn't this set like one of two Mega Venu sets that loses to scald burns? Will-o-wisp is a move commonly run that can bother this set as well. Moltres still beats this set pretty handily, and any boosting mons or taunt users that beat Mega Venusaur normally (Like Work-Up Pidge, NP Toge, Taunt Bat, CM psychics, etc.) will send this set flying. Not to mention a mono-attack Venu isn't really lategame material. it could easily get stalled out by a pressure mon, honorable mentions to Cro and Vincune who can win if they slam it with the scald burn I mentioned earlier. But even just subroosters like Kyurem and Moltres should win here. It also suffers from Venusaur's usual problem of only having synthesis as recovery. Sand, status, or even just whittling at it can force it to synthesis, and a bulkier team or a team with a solid resistance can honestly just....Wait curse Venu out. Not to mention Curse mega Venusaur is 100% Scizor Bait. With it's 4x resistance to grass, it can easily just SD Up in Venu's face. If it's defensive SD Scizor, it will more than likely be able to win the war of attrition when you both max out on stats. Where as Offensive SD Scizor can just start wailing on it by getting to +6 first and launching strong bug bites or even a Z bug move. Other boosting grass resists like Doublade and NP Celebi are also going to have a field day here. Even Mega Altaria, a mon who Mega Venusaur is supposed to counter, sees this set as free dragon dances.

But who wants to hear the most embarrassing stop to a boosting grass type in Pokemon history?
View attachment 128395
Curse Mega Venusaur 100% loses to Pyukumuku. Being uninvested in attack means that Venusaur physically cannot muscle past this mon.
0 Atk Venusaur-Mega Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 134-162 (42.6 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
And this is POWER WHIP, which is even stronger than petal blizzard, the move your typical curse Megavenu is using. Of course, you can try to invest in more attack to at least break Pyuku with Petal Blizzard, but at this point you're sacrificing the amount of bulk that allows Venu to setup safely on so many things.
View attachment 128396
Fellow Grass/Poison type Amoonguss is also a pretty safe and sturdy stop here, as it completely walls Megavenu's grass STAB while clear smogging away it's curse and amnesia boosts.

This ISN'T to say Curse Venu is a bad set, but it's absolutely not the set that should be considered for "what pushes Mega Venu over the edge." its not as good as it is on paper.

On the topic of Venu, I'd like to bring attention to one mon who I think does exceptionally well against most Mega Venusaur sets in general. An unspoken hero if you will.
View attachment 128400
Dragalge handly switches in on any Mega venusaur lacking Earthquake, completely walling it's other moves. Knock can annoy it if it's not carrying Z but it's no skin off of Dragalge's back. In turn, Specs or Z Draco Meteor threatens to OHKO Mega Venusaur from 90 with guarantee, even having the chance to KO it from 100% as well.
252+ SpA Adaptability Dragalge Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 328-386 (90.1 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 328-386 (90.1 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO


Anyways, I don't think Curse Mega Venusaur is what it's all hyped up to be. And I think the other sets are beatable too. Delving into weird options to do so isn't anything strange when there's new tiering shifts, not to mention that many of the options we already have, many of the mons we already use, well, already do the trick.
SD scizor doesn't beat Curse Mega Venu if it switches in on the first curse, and even bug-z can't break it with no crits and correct (pretty easy) prediction. And i really don't see how Mega Alt sees at as "Free dragon dances"? venu resists mega alt's stab and EQ is doing 20-25 -- provided that the m-alt even has as many boosts as the venusaur, while +6 petal dance does 61-70% in return.
 
SD scizor doesn't beat Curse Mega Venu if it switches in on the first curse, and even bug-z can't break it with no crits and correct (pretty easy) prediction. And i really don't see how Mega Alt sees at as "Free dragon dances"? venu resists mega alt's stab and EQ is doing 20-25 -- provided that the m-alt even has as many boosts as the venusaur, while +6 petal dance does 61-70% in return.
I said Alt handles Mega Venu on account of stalling it's Petal Blizzards. Which Bulkier DD M-alt spreads can do quite handlily, and even the regular M-alt spreads can do by not Mega evolving. That was more to point out the fact that Its Petal Blizzards are easily stalled, and that I never said M-alt was any form of counter to the Curse Mega Venu. As for the Scizor case, if Scizor switches in on the first curse, then SDs 3 times alongside Venusaur's curses, Venusaur will be at +4 while the Scizor is at +6
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bug Bite vs. +4 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 175-207 (48 - 56.8%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO
This is a lot of damage, and even if Venu curses again here, it's still at risk of losing to another good roll.
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bug Bite vs. +5 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 149-177 (40.9 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
As I already said, this should by no means be your PRIMARY answer to Curse Venu. But more that is a splashable mon on many teams that can give it issues in the right scenario. Pif was the one who said I claimed it to be a counter, when I never said such a thing in my initial post. It's simply an obstacle to Curse Megavenu's success, that you can't just "Lead with it and instantly win" like many people are claiming. Curse Amnesia Megavenu is a strong set, but an overhyped one that comes with any struggles a grass type physical attacker using one attack and a bunch of setup moves would.
 
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Brandon

Drumming along to my circadian beat
is a Battle Simulator Driver
Since nobody has talked about Mega Diancie stall, I figured I'd mention that it's also a great asset to that archetype as well. Here is the team that I've been using. Diancie serves as stall's check to stallbreakers, which is quite huge given how much they pressure traditional stall. Work up Mega Pidgeot, Togekiss, non ddance Haxorus, Heracross, Mamoswine (with a little bit of chip), CB Terrakion, all fall to Diancie quite easily; even without investment. Taunt Crobat will also be checked, and it is a fairly solid check to any cm Chandelure set that isn't carrying energy ball. It also helps to free up Blissey's moveset to let it be the cleric for the team by carrying stealth rock. Magic bounce is also an excellent ability that can help bounce random hazards/status moves back, which is especially helpful vs opposing stall. By having an offensive prowess even uninvested, it will put pressure on a weakened stall team, and it can serve quite well mid-late game. I suggest you all try it out!

0 Atk Diancie-Mega Diamond Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pidgeot-Mega: 390-458 (127 - 149.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Diancie-Mega Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 338-402 (90.3 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Haxorus: 410-486 (139.9 - 165.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 324-384 (107.6 - 127.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mamoswine: 232-274 (64.2 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Terrakion: 338-398 (104.3 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Diancie-Mega Diamond Storm vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 390-462 (104.5 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Diancie-Mega: 216-255 (71 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
 
loved reading this thread so far, probs not the right place to ask but to clarify, the UU open rounds this round is using the tier pre-shift right?

also mega venu stall/semi-stall/any kind of wish support is good (broken) af
 
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