np: UU - Can't Touch This

[M BLADE]

You know there's NU pokes that does different things than the UU ones, right?
If you don't, well... that's not my problem lol.



The difference between Raikou and CM Cresselia is simple:

One is a straight sweeper. Other is a tankish sweeper. One is fast and hits hard, the other relies on it's bulk to sweep. Simple as that.

 

[Lex]

Quagsire with encore, EQ and a Sp Def build is the cure to Hp Grass-Less Raikou. Its beautiful.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

You know there's NU pokes that does different things than the UU ones, right?
If you don't, well... that's not my problem lol.

I guess you're talking to thorns. Well,

nobody needs to try nu pokemon in uu when there are uu pokemon that do it better

He knows being NU doesn't automatically means the pokémon is 100% outclassed, just that it's silly to use one that actually is. Not only him, but I guess any other respectable player knows it.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Why is everyone running all these retarded Cresselia sets? If you're giving Cresselia SPE and SATK you're getting a shittier Raikou. Cresselia should only ever run 16-24 SATK EVs and 4-12 SPE EVs. I'm seeing my Arcanine do >60% to Cresselia, which should not be happening. Not that I'm complaining, since it's a quick way to lol at their sweep attempt, but still.

 

[d2m]

nobody needs to try nu pokemon in uu when there are uu pokemon that do it better, if you are satisfied with gimmicks then that's cool but you shouldn't be encouraging them

Jumpluff is NU, I defy you to say it's crappy on a sun team, or as a subseeder.

Gorebyss is NU, but it's devastating on rain teams.

Miltank is NU, but without a fighting move, it's one of the most frustrating walls/cursers to break.

Porygon-2 is NU, yet it's one of the best Gyarados/Dugtrio counters and can serve as a solid normal wall and tracer.

Tauros is NU, yet he's one of the best Normal type Choice banders there is.

Typhlosion is NU, but specs eruption will practically 6-0 a team without Flash Fire or a very bulky water.

Stallrein is NU, nuff said.

I could go on, but NUs can carve out very effective roles on certain teams, and you don't even have to build around them like you do a gimmick, for instance, gorebyss fitting on a rain team based on a Kabutops sweep.

Think before you make rash generalizations.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Jumpluff is NU, I defy you to say it's crappy on a sun team, or as a subseeder.

Gorebyss is NU, but it's devastating on rain teams.

Miltank is NU, but without a fighting move, it's one of the most frustrating walls/cursers to break.

Porygon-2 is NU, yet it's one of the best Gyarados/Dugtrio counters and can serve as a solid normal wall and tracer.

Tauros is NU, yet he's one of the best Normal type Choice banders there is.

Typhlosion is NU, but specs eruption will practically 6-0 a team without Flash Fire or a very bulky water.

Stallrein is NU, nuff said.

I could go on, but NUs can carve out very effective roles on certain teams, and you don't even have to build around them like you do a gimmick, for instance, gorebyss fitting on a rain team based on a Kabutops sweep.

Think before you make rash generalizations.

nobody needs to try nu pokemon in uu when there are uu pokemon that do it better

 

[SJCrew]

My biggest issues are with Raikou and Cress at the moment. My hyper offense team rams through everything just fine, provided I never have to face either of them. I don't want to have to run stall just to make sure I'm prepared for them at all times. I've tried running specific counters for them, but the sub variants disallow Toxic stall and Chansey can't even do anything about Cress due to its massive and usually maxed HP stat.

I'm rather worried that Cress will stay UU with the abundance of bad players using them improperly and the good players that don't use them will vote on the basis that they have no trouble beating them.

On the other hand, we have Porygon-Z. Spiritomb and Registeel give it hell all day, but other than that, expect it to net a lot of easy KOs. I'm not sure how to rank it in the grand scheme of things, since I seem to be the only one taking advantage of its massive power by running specs. I feel the same way about CB Rhyp, except it's probably 5x deadlier, especially with its stupid amount of bulk, power, switch-in opportunities, and one of the best dual STABs in the entire damn game.

Comments and reservations aside, my focus is mostly on testing Z and abusing Cress, as it should be.

Quagsire with encore, EQ and a Sp Def build is the cure to Hp Grass-Less Raikou. Its beautiful.

In my experience, if it's running HP, it's usually grass. I'm not sure why, since it leaves you with a huge weak to Grass types and it hardly covers anything Ice doesn't.

 

[Heysup]

Why is everyone running all these retarded Cresselia sets? If you're giving Cresselia SPE and SATK you're getting a shittier Raikou. Cresselia should only ever run 16-24 SATK EVs and 4-12 SPE EVs. I'm seeing my Arcanine do >60% to Cresselia, which should not be happening. Not that I'm complaining, since it's a quick way to lol at their sweep attempt, but still.

Because people were sick of being beaten to a pulp from Pokemon like Absol. I agree with you that running purely max/max Spreads are silly, but running 176 Spe or w/e to outpace Absol is definitely a legitimate strategy.

I personally like 92 HP / 52 Def / 188 SpA / 176 Spe w/ Calm nature for a SubCM set (OHKOes Absol with +1 Signal Beam after SR). Otherwise just 252 HP / 176 Spe / 80 Def or w/e works, for a nonSub set.

Jumpluff is NU, I defy you to say it's crappy on a sun team, or as a subseeder.

What other Pokemon can use Sleep + Seed with Encore and 350 base Speed? No other UU Pokemon does that.

Miltank is NU, but without a fighting move, it's one of the most frustrating walls/cursers to break.

No other Pokemon has those defenses, Curse, and scrappy. No other UU Pokemon does that.

Porygon-2 is NU, yet it's one of the best Gyarados/Dugtrio counters and can serve as a solid normal wall and tracer.

No other UU / OU Pokemon does that.

Tauros is NU, yet he's one of the best Normal type Choice banders there is.

No other UU Pokemon does that.

Typhlosion is NU, but specs eruption will practically 6-0 a team without Flash Fire or a very bulky water.

I'll ignore the exaggeration, but anyway: No other UU Pokemon does that.

Stallrein is NU, nuff said.

No other UU Pokemon does that.

Clearly what thorns is talking about are Pokemon like Pidgeot, who are clearly outclassed by something (or everything) in UU.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Absol isn't even a threat to Cresselia (just switch out to a counter if you're that afraid of it, it's not going to pursuit you because if you stay in it dies), and it certainly shouldn't force it to run some pseudo-offensive set just to outspeed and kill it (which doesn't even matter due to Sucker Punch which, incidentally, does severe damage [75.7% - 89.1%] to the set you posted). Think about Crocune in OU, it doesn't bother running speed to get past Magnezone or Tinkerbell Celebi or something because it's not supposed to stay in against those Pokemon, and compromising its defenses to try and beat them will just gets you killed against things you would be able to beat with a more defensive spread. Honestly, Sub/Moonlight, Cm, Psychic, Filler with 252/216 Bold screws every one of its "counters" anyway; Absol can't 2hko with Night Slash even if you don't have sub, and Sucker Punch barely breaks 60%, while Cress does 76.5% - 90.4% back at +1 (Signal Beam).

 

[panamaxis]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat d2m
Typhlosion is NU, but specs eruption will practically 6-0 a team without Flash Fire or a very bulky water.

I'll ignore the exaggeration, but anyway: No other UU Pokemon does that.

Moltres?

 

[jamashawalker]

Absol isn't even a threat to Cresselia (just switch out to a counter if you're that afraid of it, it's not going to pursuit you because if you stay in it dies), and it certainly shouldn't force it to run some pseudo-offensive set just to outspeed and kill it (which doesn't even matter due to Sucker Punch which, incidentally, does severe damage [75.7% - 89.1%] to the set you posted). Think about Crocune in OU, it doesn't bother running speed to get past Magnezone or Tinkerbell Celebi or something because it's not supposed to stay in against those Pokemon, and compromising its defenses to try and beat them will just gets you killed against things you would be able to beat with a more defensive spread. Honestly, Sub/Moonlight, Cm, Psychic, Filler with 252/216 Bold screws every one of its "counters" anyway; Absol can't 2hko with Night Slash even if you don't have sub, and Sucker Punch barely breaks 60%, while Cress does 76.5% - 90.4% back at +1 (Signal Beam).

Punishment says hello...it is absol's strongest attack against a CM cress and it is not a bad option at all to give absol...night slash has only 10 more base power and absol just uses night slash for moves that he cant predict 100% with sucker punch...it doesnt help his speed issues with cress but it does do good against the slower versions that are not subbed

 

[Golden Sun]

These 2 pokemon are obviously too strong not uncounterable but too strong.

 

[Smurf.]

Ok, its starting to get ridiculous the amount of times my anti-lead PZ sweeps 6-0 without switching out.. it single handedly humilated people on the leaderboard with 1500 + ratings. Worst case scenario, you lose your entire defensive core, then I set up Screens and its GG..

 

[Ekanselttar]

Weighing in to say that that Porygon-Z antilead is too awesome. As if my Cradily in the sand wasn't broken enough...

 

[Smurf.]

Weighing in to say that that Porygon-Z antilead is too awesome. As if my Cradily in the sand wasn't broken enough...

Nice to see someone else gave my lead a run, would be interested how successful its been for you? What threats have you run into? That way I could refine the EV spread to make it even better. :)

 

[chuie]

Moltres?

Assuming full hp I think Typhlosion's specs Eruption would do more than Moltres' specs Fire Blast. Overheat would change things, but of course it comes with that severe power drop. Take also into account of Typhlosion's speed and flying-less typing, and you'll notice that it has several distinct advantages.

 

[Heysup]

Absol isn't even a threat to Cresselia (just switch out to a counter if you're that afraid of it, it's not going to pursuit you because if you stay in it dies), and it certainly shouldn't force it to run some pseudo-offensive set just to outspeed and kill it (which doesn't even matter due to Sucker Punch which, incidentally, does severe damage [75.7% - 89.1%] to the set you posted). Think about Crocune in OU, it doesn't bother running speed to get past Magnezone or Tinkerbell Celebi or something because it's not supposed to stay in against those Pokemon, and compromising its defenses to try and beat them will just gets you killed against things you would be able to beat with a more defensive spread. Honestly, Sub/Moonlight, Cm, Psychic, Filler with 252/216 Bold screws every one of its "counters" anyway; Absol can't 2hko with Night Slash even if you don't have sub, and Sucker Punch barely breaks 60%, while Cress does 76.5% - 90.4% back at +1 (Signal Beam).

+2 Life Orbed Night Slash vs Cresselia: 95% - 112.6%

Why would it Night Slash vs a slow Cress? It always OHKOes it after a Swords Dance and SR (or Substitute).

If you want to switch into a ~800 Attack Pokemon with perfect coverage, priority, and 25% to crit and assuredly OHKO whatever you switch in, good luck. For those who don't, Signal Beam + 188 SpA + 176 Spe is the best, and only way to go.

Oh and...Cresselia =/= Crocune. They have like 2 similarities.

Ok, its starting to get ridiculous the amount of times my anti-lead PZ sweeps 6-0 without switching out.. it single handedly humilated people on the leaderboard with 1500 + ratings. Worst case scenario, you lose your entire defensive core, then I set up Screens and its GG..

Then you face bad people -_-. Also, that isn't the worst case scenario. The worst case scenario is that they a) use Froslass, Spike, and Dbond you, b) flat out OHKO you with something like Moltres, or c) put you to Sleep.

All of which are likely scenarios. I would personally save Porygonz for early-mid game, rather then to be the first thing down. Add this to the fact that it gets run over by many leads.

I have honestly never had any sort of problem with Porygonz as an antilead (or at all really).

 

[Bluewind]

Lum Berry to the rescue (at least on situation C).

 

[capefeather]

Well, if you lead with an Uxie against the PZ lead, and you assume it's scarfed (not hard to fake since Uxie doesn't invest in speed) because "only an idiot would try to sweep right off the bat", then yeah, you have a +3 PZ on your hands. I don't see how this necessarily makes the Uxie player bad, especially since it will never work on him/her more than once (unless he/she really is bad).

EDIT: Well, I guess if you mean that +3 Lum PZ shouldn't be 6-0ing your team regardless, that would be a better statement, seeing as how +3 Lum is slightly weaker than +2 Orb is.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Speaking of Porygon-Z, has anyone else made a habit of throwing (an extra) 4 Special Defense EVs on Pokemon with identical defenses to stop Download variants getting a useful boost on them? I run a Froslass and a Toxicroak on my current team, and I put 4 stray EVs in Special Defense on both of them. It is at worst inconsequential but can make all the difference in a critical situation.

 

[FlareBlitz]

"+2 Life Orbed Night Slash vs Cresselia: 95% - 112.6%" ..okay? So Absol is going to switch in, Swords Dance, and attack? What will Cress be doing in this time? Masturbating? Here's a more likely situation: Person A switches in Cresselia! Person B: "Oh nooo!" Person B switches in Absol while Cress uses Calm Mind. Person B uses Swords Dance. Absol then dies to +1 Signal Beam or, if it happens to survive, uses Night Slash against Cress at it uses Moonlight and lives through with ~60% OR uses Night Slash against some dark resistant switch in, dying to Life Orb recoil either way. And all of this is assuming that Cress doesn't just attack on the switch, cleaning 2hkoing. The only thing that should be setting up against Cresselia is Drapion (and maybe Houndoom if you're sure it doesn't have HP Fighting), because it's the only thing that has the bulk to do so. Edit: Apparently I can't create paragraphs.

 

[dbcb]

+2 Life Orbed Night Slash vs Cresselia: 95% - 112.6%

Why would it Night Slash vs a slow Cress? It always OHKOes it after a Swords Dance and SR (or Substitute).

If you want to switch into a ~800 Attack Pokemon with perfect coverage, priority, and 25% to crit and assuredly OHKO whatever you switch in, good luck. For those who don't, Signal Beam + 188 SpA + 176 Spe is the best, and only way to go.

what in the world are you switching into that is allowing absol to set up like that?

 

[jamashawalker]

Speaking of Porygon-Z, has anyone else made a habit of throwing (an extra) 4 Special Defense EVs on Pokemon with identical defenses to stop Download variants getting a useful boost on them? I run a Froslass and a Toxicroak on my current team, and I put 4 stray EVs in Special Defense on both of them. It is at worst inconsequential but can make all the difference in a critical situation.

hahaha i did that too for one of my teams and it did make a huge difference as to download PZ

 

[Heysup]

"+2 Life Orbed Night Slash vs Cresselia: 95% - 112.6%" ..okay? So Absol is going to switch in, Swords Dance, and attack? What will Cress be doing in this time? Masturbating? Here's a more likely situation: Person A switches in Cresselia! Person B: "Oh nooo!" Person B switches in Absol while Cress uses Calm Mind. Person B uses Swords Dance. Absol then dies to +1 Signal Beam or, if it happens to survive, uses Night Slash against Cress at it uses Moonlight and lives through with ~60% OR uses Night Slash against some dark resistant switch in, dying to Life Orb recoil either way. And all of this is assuming that Cress doesn't just attack on the switch, cleaning 2hkoing. The only thing that should be setting up against Cresselia is Drapion (and maybe Houndoom if you're sure it doesn't have HP Fighting), because it's the only thing that has the bulk to do so. Edit: Apparently I can't create paragraphs.

Firstly, the most likely situation is that Absol is going to be switching into Moonlight or Psychic. Secondly, even if Absol switches into a Calm Mind, it survives with at least enough HP for 1 Attack, which WILL OHKO Cresselia. It has a horribly low chance of surviving Night Slash, and zero percent chance of surviving Sucker Punch (I posted my calc before, and you quoted it so you obviously didn't miss it...what is so hard to understand about this?).

For reference:

+1 Cresselia Signal Beam vs Absol: 75% - 88.2%

Very very very small % chance of OHKOing after SR.

what in the world are you switching into that is allowing absol to set up like that?

Cresselia.

I have admitted that Absol isn't a "surefire" counter to Cresselia, but it will absolutely win at least 90% of the time against standard sets, and likely take out another Pokemon in the process. This doesn't count SubCM sets, which deal with Absol much more effectively, because my argument was that SubCM w/ 176 Spe is viable.

 

[PK Gaming]

Moltres?

Moltres doesn't learn Eruption nor is he as fast. Plus he sports an ugly 4X weakness to SR. They are not quite comparable.