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np: UU - Higher Ground

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d2m said:
Problem is Minun can't come in safely against much of anything, even a Milotic Surf with a small amount of SpA will 2HKO it with SR (Not mentioning Haze), which is so common it's practically a common battle condition, so unless someone is stupid enough to try to stat up, Encore just means you're going to die.
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It's really not as difficult as you're making it out to be. If you want to bring Minun in against Milotic, that's your own fault since it's obviously not the best thing to set up on. Also, FYI:

263 Atk vs 206 Def & 324 HP (95 Base Power): 130 - 154 (40.12% - 47.53%)

That's the standard 108 SpA Milotic (I'm not completely sure if the EVs have changed or something), which isn't even guaranteed a 2HKO with Surf and SR. And seeing as I recommended carrying a Rapid Spinner, which IMO seem to be a lot more common in UU than in OU, SR shouldn't always be assumed. Without SR, it isn't getting a 2HKO at all.

Anyways, it's not even a good idea to bring Minun into Milotic. Just bring it in against a wall and it's not that difficult to Encore. Also "unless someone is stupid enough to try to stat up"...dude, you're supposed to predict and bring Minun in as they stat up and Encore it from there. Of course no one's going to stat up in Minun's face. Stat ups aren't the only thing he can Encore as well, any supporting move would work just fine (besides something like Haze). Eg. come in on Altaria using Roost, Encore it, and then with your Focus Sash, you're free to NP and Pass.
 
Has anybody ever tried out a TrickBand Spiritomb before as a lead? I've been experimenting with one recently and it has been working really well, almost never a weak link. I wouldn't call it an anti-lead per say as it is beaten by a number of leads, but it is capable of getting rid of or severely crippling some annoying common leads like Ambipom, Uxie, Roserade etc off the bat. Even after that it is still capable of crippling a wall, preventing sweeps (with a bit of prediction), eliminating Rotom and / or Mismagius, or beating up something locked into a Normal / Fighting / Psychic move.

I'm currently running WoW in the last slot, but I am seriously considering Return instead so that I have something to hit Blaziken and SubPunchers. To be honest WoW isn't useful that often.
 
I agree that Donphan really is a great addition to UU. I've had like 20 battles since the new guys were added and I yet have to see ONE Dugtrio.

But most importantly and completely out of the blue, Swords Dance Pinsir is the shit and can really tear through stall.
 
I have to say, I am surprised at the decrease of Ambipom in the UU. Before, I saw them every other battle. Now they're like a novelty. Probably due to fear of Dugtrio and Donphan screwing him over / stopping him respectively (although, Ambipom can U-turn on the switchin and a Silk Scarf Return will not be taken well by Donphan.)

I have seen both Donphan and Dugtrio, but Donphan is the one having way more sucess than Dugtrio (Dug gets fucked over by priority attacks, and Donphan is just bulky :D)
 
ExplorerAce said:
I have to say, I am surprised at the decrease of Ambipom in the UU. Before, I saw them every other battle. Now they're like a novelty. Probably due to fear of Dugtrio and Donphan screwing him over / stopping him respectively (although, Ambipom can U-turn on the switchin and a Silk Scarf Return will not be taken well by Donphan.)

I have seen both Donphan and Dugtrio, but Donphan is the one having way more sucess than Dugtrio (Dug gets fucked over by priority attacks, and Donphan is just bulky :D)
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That's odd, cause i'm seeing Ambipom everywhere.
 
Lemmiwinks MkII said:
Has anybody ever tried out a TrickBand Spiritomb before as a lead? I've been experimenting with one recently and it has been working really well, almost never a weak link. I wouldn't call it an anti-lead per say as it is beaten by a number of leads, but it is capable of getting rid of or severely crippling some annoying common leads like Ambipom, Uxie, Roserade etc off the bat. Even after that it is still capable of crippling a wall, preventing sweeps (with a bit of prediction), eliminating Rotom and / or Mismagius, or beating up something locked into a Normal / Fighting / Psychic move.

I'm currently running WoW in the last slot, but I am seriously considering Return instead so that I have something to hit Blaziken and SubPunchers. To be honest WoW isn't useful that often.
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Confirming Trickband spiritomb is annoying as hell <_<
 
I'm recently new to Smogon and the UU tier. I only tried 1 or 3 OU battles, but after watching tons of videos on youtube, I really didn't wanna start it because every1 always has like 3-4 of the same poke in 1 team. So I started up an UU team that I think is pretty decent. It's missing a DDGator though, but once I get it I should start competing with them to see how they do.
I just wanted to get some info on the UU tier itself, like do more people play in this tier than OU. Is it ok to mix NU with OU and etc.
 
in july there were 409761 usages of pokemon on the standard (OU) ladder while there were only 42051 uses on the UU ladder. anything that's UU, NU, or NFE is legal on the UU ladder -- you can't use BL, OU, or Uber pokemon.
 
First off, I recommend trying out Shoddy Battle for testing purposes. It's much faster than in game not o mention you will probably find more experienced playing there.

As for viable Pokemon in other tiers I would just like to say that every Pokemon can fill a niche and depending on how you build your team determines how well that niche can be utilized. Keep in mind that the metagame can shift very often and you have to "keep up" with it. Meaning making sure you can deal with a variety of threats.

OU pokeman cannot play in UU or NU, UU pokemon can play in OU but not in NU, NU can be played in all tiers. NU Pokemon like Quagsire and Parasect can function well in Ubers but not in OU or UU Pokemon like Honchkrow and Yanmega can devastate OU teams if used properly. It all depends on the metagame your playing in and the Pokemon that you want to use.

Shifting away from that... I have yet to see a stall team in UU and if I have it has been a while. What do stall teams even look like any more?
 
Yes stall teams are pretty rare now, I doubt I have faced more than 10 since the ladder was reset.
Stall is pretty much the same now, only some different spreads and items because of Dugtrio; Chansey, Roserade, Milotic, Altaria, Spiritomb, Rotom, Donphan and Hitmontop are the most common, but I have noticed some people using Tangrowth too.
 
What do you guys use for suicide lead dugtrio? So far I have just been using the standard revenge kill (with more EVs in HP and less in speed). I usually keep him hidden until the end when most of my opponent's team is weakened and I have scoped out their pokemon.
 
metamonstar said:
What do you guys use for suicide lead dugtrio? So far I have just been using the standard revenge kill (with more EVs in HP and less in speed). I usually keep him hidden until the end when most of my opponent's team is weakened and I have scoped out their pokemon.
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Honestly, what lead does he beat? Uxie, Moltres, Yanmega, and Mespirit all aren't trapped and Ambipom can OHKO with Fake Out/Return while outrunning you if you're adamant. Those are the only leads that I see with any consistency, so Dugtrio just seemingly fails wholely as a lead.

He's meant to pick off weakened sweepers or walls after they KO one of your guys. That's pretty much his best niche.
 
Suicide lead Dugtrio is something i never quite understood to be honest. As stated above many common leads aren't trapped and some other outspeed it.
The only leads that i think Dugtrio threatens are Roserade and Typhlosion, and both of them will most likely break Dugtrio's sash, making it unable to set up rocks if you have any priority users and unable to switch back in once you get your rocks down (unless you got a spinner of course).
IMHO it's better just to keep him for revenge killing weakened walls or frail pokes in general.
 
I argued this with someone a little while back, but Dugtrio as a lead is not only a 100% awful lead, but it basically loses to every other lead, and loses ridiculously hard to most of them. Roserade is literally the only lead that it doesn't just outright lose to, and that's only against Scarf Roserade, as non-scarf can just Sleep it and then 2KO. Typhlosion is also one that it beats, but beating two leads out of the top 10 and 5 out of the top 20 is absolutely godawful in any case. It also ensures that in order to use it as a lead effectively you have to devote its item and two of its moveslots to that pursuit, meaning that it can't even function well in the midgame.

Dugtrio lead sucks, and that's really that.
 
Seven Deadly Sins said:
I argued this with someone a little while back, but Dugtrio as a lead is not only a 100% awful lead, but it basically loses to every other lead, and loses ridiculously hard to most of them. Roserade is literally the only lead that it doesn't just outright lose to, and that's only against Scarf Roserade, as non-scarf can just Sleep it and then 2KO. Typhlosion is also one that it beats, but beating two leads out of the top 10 and 5 out of the top 20 is absolutely godawful in any case. It also ensures that in order to use it as a lead effectively you have to devote its item and two of its moveslots to that pursuit, meaning that it can't even function well in the midgame.

Dugtrio lead sucks, and that's really that.
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Dugtrio lead doesn't suck. I managed an ~80% win rate with my old team using a suicide Dugtrio, you just have to know how to use it right. The point isn't to beat the opposing lead in most cases, it is to get a quick SR up, which it does very well being the fastest user in the tier. If Roserade wants to risk a Sleep Powder (lol accuracy issues) then it can do. Worst case scenario is it takes a huge hit then sleeps Dugtrio, allowing me to switch in a counter without fear of sleep, then possibly Heal Bell for Duggy later. Needless to say that Spikes leads have to choose between breaking the Sash or getting one layer down before dying. Moltres is normally forced out, meaning it next comes in at 50%. Uxie means easy Rocks, and can be badly poisoned as long as it isn't holding a Lum Berry. Yanmega is also guaranteed Rocks that cripple it later. Even better if it protects first as I get away unscathed. If it doesn't Protect it is risking a Stone Edge to the face.

Dugtrio may not be the best lead around, but to say it is completely awful is just ignorant. It does have some good use on certain teams.
 
Suicide Leads in this metagame are simply terrible mainly because it is so hard to stop Donphan from spinning, and if you team is only setting down its rocks once you're done.

Anyway, if you run anything other than SR / EQ / Protect / Sucker Punch you have huge issues with anything that has a solid amount of speed or priority or anything. If you're not packing Protect (it seems like you're running something like SR / EQ / Stone Edge / Toxic), you even lose to silly shit like Ambipom, which is one of the few draws of leading with Dugtrio.
 
It isn't that hard to stop Donphan spinning if every other member of your offensive team can batter it senselessly before it can even move. That's how suicide offense is meant to work, is it not?

And besides, Ambipom gets the upper hand on lead Duggy whether you have Protect or not (SR or EQ followed by U-turn to counter for at worst equal damage). Lead Ambipom is one of the perks of leading with TrickBand Spiritomb, not Dugtrio. Ambipom doesn't do anything while you switch to a Steel, Rock or Ghost Pokemon and do whatever, so being forced to switch out from it first turn is not that big a deal.
 
Ambipom's fakeout is almost as powerfull as a scizor's bullet punch so i see how it could be a problem however, Dugtrio could simply go CB with jolly and night slash the pixies stone edge moltres earthquake for everything else and stealth rock if the lead cant do anything to you.
 
Is it just me, or are physical Venusaur becoming the majority?
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Quoted for truth lol, it's been a while since i saw a Venusaur using a special attack. People must have noticed most teams don't prepare very well for the physical variant.
Changing the subject a little, it's getting kinda funny that everyone and their mothers pack a SpecsMega on the team now.
 
Bluewind said:
Quoted for truth lol, it's been a while since i saw a Venusaur using a special attack. People must have noticed most teams don't prepare very well for the physical variant.
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And now that people are beginning to notice that, the metagame will begin to shift so that no one will expect special attacking Venusaur. Remember when Speed Boost Mega was the most common?
 
Yeah it's rare to run into a good player who doesn't have specsmega on their team and for that matter it's just as rare to not seem them using donphan. Yanphan (or Donmega???) is really a great combination. I've heard people say that Donphan (or foresight top) is almost a necessity if you want Yanmega to do well at all.

So maybe a discussion on whether Yanmega needs a spinner alongside and if so, what does that mean for Yanmega and the potential to become suspect?
 
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