When will the thread be posted where we confirm our alts? I don't wanna risk dropping below 45 Deviation
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np: UU - Rain Drops Keep Falling on my Head
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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I saw your edit post, but the point is, removing a Steel type in a Dragon-laden metagame is a huge killing. We have more than enough Dragon Pokemon ready to just pounce when a Steel type is removing. Salamence, Dragonite, Latias, Kingdra, hell even Flygon can just abuse boosted Dragon moves for fun when Magnezone removes Scizor, or Skarm, or whatever.
Scizor is like one of the few magnezone removes...and that's only if it's locked into a CB bullet punch/pursuit...which does open the door for many sweepers(not just dragon)..most skarmory carry shed shell now-a-days to run from magnezone...looking at statistics it's 50/50...magnezone's title of "steel killer" is looked into question to be honest as it is has to be more careful about them than vice versa
The comparison is completely valid. Just like OU teams have multiple steels, UU teams have multiple Raikou checks. In both comparisons, you use a trapper to remove something that threatens the sweeper from sweeping. The fact that Dugtrio can trap other things is only slightly relevant considering its not used to trap these frail sweepers, but rather only to help Raikou sweep easier (in the same way Magnezone can be used because of its resistances but its heavily used to remove Scizor, Forretress, and some Skarmory).
Are we talk about purpose or effectiveness?
Their purposes are the same... Trap+ Kill certain pokes= easier time for other sweepers...I agree on that note
Effectiveness in their tiers, I find dugtrio to be much more effective at serviing its purpose (this is not saying dugtrio is better than magnezone) Taking more than just "certain pokes" out...
Their purposes are the same... Trap+ Kill certain pokes= easier time for other sweepers...I agree on that note
Effectiveness in their tiers, I find dugtrio to be much more effective at serviing its purpose (this is not saying dugtrio is better than magnezone) Taking more than just "certain pokes" out...
I made those lists regarding what Dugtrio loses to with each move so that people wouldn't make statements like this one.
No, Dugtrio only takes certain Pokemon out. It takes out literally two relevant Pokemon: Registeel and Chansey. It does not take out any other relevant Pokemon, because that isn't what the "case" for Dugtrio being BL is being made for (and for good reason). The Dugtrio - BL argument is being made for the sole reason that it takes out Chansey and Registeel, a counter and a very effective Raikou check (I would't call it a counter, to be honest).
Magnezone removes the only type that resists Dragon-type attacks, and barely sacrifices anything in the process (and actually, SubMagnezone GIVES the team momentum). That's definitely more "effective" and important than sacrificing momentum to remove one counter and a check for Raikou.
Magnezone does it's job more effectively while also not being forced into a bad situation in the process. Yet, it isn't even being considered for Uber. This should be enough evidence for Dugtrio to remain UU.
I can't believe people are still seriously discussing this. Yeah, Dugtrio is annoying because it can come in and revenge kill a lot of weakened sweepers and remove certain walls (who don't run Shed Shell)...and that would matter if we were playing fucking NuzlockeShoddy. As it is, Dugtrio killing one of your sweepers usually just means that another gets to set up. God help you if I switch in Torterra, Altaria, Sceptile, Mismagius, Rotom, Moltres, or many, many more Pokemon and proceed to set up on Duggy. And if Duggy takes out your wall on a stall team, a) your fault for not using Shed Shell and b) use the momentum you gain to set up hazards and phaze, making sure Raikou doesn't set up. This is the primary reason Dugtrio left OU, guys; its tendency to give dangerous pokes like Salamence and Latias free turns was unacceptable to most teams. And saying "well its tendency to get set up on doesn't matter if it kills something that is stopping something else from sweeping" is dumb, because by that logic Slaking with Pursuit should be BL when paired with Hitmonlee (or whatever).
Exactly how many steels are actually taken out by magnezone in the current OU metagame?...Using magnezone and playing against magnezone, it does it job effective only switching into choice steel types or walls without shed shell...
Why I say dugtrio is more effective is because he is not limited to those things that allow magnezone to do it's job. Yes it does get set up on in the process (I'm mainly looking at Torterra because of its increase in usage)...but that still doesnt leave out the fact that you have lost 1 poke...
I am not stating whether dugtrio is BL or not...I'm stating that comparing dugtrio/magnezone is invalid because of the two different styles of tiering within OU/UU
Seriously, the notion of Dugtrio for BL is just UU's love letter to Registeel. If you don't want your precious Regi to get ganked by Dugtrio, put a Shed Shell on it. SHAZAM! You win! If it's choiced, you have free reign to set up or lay spikes or put up screens or question your opponent's sexual orientation or do whatever else your team needs to gain momentum. If it's LO, well, it's got Base 80 attack, no defense investment, and 211 hitpoints. We're talking about a pokémon that makes a Moltres that just switched into SR look like a tank. And there you have it. The momentum is yours.
But you don't want to put a Shed Shell on your Registeel? Too bad. The argument against Dugtrio is largely focused on its ability to take out Registeel, and its ability to take out Registeel is almost entirely dependent on whether or not Registeel runs Shed Shell or Leftovers. So what we're really saying is that Dugtrio ruins the metagame by making the God-Emperor of Stall, the all-holy Registeel, either lose its 6% a turn from leftovers or get taken out by a fairly popular pokémon. Heaven forbid we adjust to the current trends. It's not like people have run a Scarfed Primeape to beat RP Torterra or used Hypno to counter Venusaur or used Golduck and Gardevoir to counter rain teams.
Oh, wait...
But you don't want to put a Shed Shell on your Registeel? Too bad. The argument against Dugtrio is largely focused on its ability to take out Registeel, and its ability to take out Registeel is almost entirely dependent on whether or not Registeel runs Shed Shell or Leftovers. So what we're really saying is that Dugtrio ruins the metagame by making the God-Emperor of Stall, the all-holy Registeel, either lose its 6% a turn from leftovers or get taken out by a fairly popular pokémon. Heaven forbid we adjust to the current trends. It's not like people have run a Scarfed Primeape to beat RP Torterra or used Hypno to counter Venusaur or used Golduck and Gardevoir to counter rain teams.
Oh, wait...
All of them? It doesn't need to switch in; Dugtrio CAN'T switch in. Dugtrio cannot beat all of Raikou's counters/checks. Is this really that hard to grasp?
Actually, no. Magnezone only really traps Scizor locked into Bullet Punch, Skarmory, and Foretress. All the others beat it (or can beat it).
Did you guys suddenly forget how to play OU? Magnezone can beat just about any OU Steel it comes in on, provided you know what the hell you're doing. It beats any standard Metagross set without question, save for Agility. Non-CM Jirachi is fucked no matter what (I've even beaten CM Jirachis before, sup Charge Beam). If you go one-on-one with Scizor, it's dead. Scizor can spam Uturn all day, but Magnezone catches its ass Bullet Punching, Pursuiting, or on the revenge period, it's going down. Skarm and Forretress are forced to forgo leftovers recovery just to make sure they aren't beaten by it, and even that is not a guarantee (I still run Leftovers on my Forry because it's too damn important for something without recovery). Hell, Magnezone even takes down other Magnezone pretty well. If Magnezone is not a Steel killer because it doesn't kill everything 100% of the time, then you might as well give up on the idea of anything in OU having a definite counter.
As good as it is, Magnezone is not Uber. It takes more than getting rid of a couple of Steel types to let Mence sweep. Weavile, Mamo, Flygon, or Latias might even be around the corner to stop you if you DD. Mixmence doesn't even need Magnezone's help to be effective because Salamence is an Uber who's been in our OU backyard for too long, sticking out like a sore thumb.
But I digress. The main point is that for every one thing Duggy CAN trap and kill, there are two more things that it can't. Magnezone runs along the same vein, except there's an even higher ratio for what it can't kill. Taking out one Pokemon guaranteed doesn't have the same effect for other UU sweepers as it does for Raikou because Raikou is better than all of them and much harder to counter. That's why it's a suspect. Dugtrio only makes its job easier.
As good as it is, Magnezone is not Uber. It takes more than getting rid of a couple of Steel types to let Mence sweep. Weavile, Mamo, Flygon, or Latias might even be around the corner to stop you if you DD. Mixmence doesn't even need Magnezone's help to be effective because Salamence is an Uber who's been in our OU backyard for too long, sticking out like a sore thumb.
But I digress. The main point is that for every one thing Duggy CAN trap and kill, there are two more things that it can't. Magnezone runs along the same vein, except there's an even higher ratio for what it can't kill. Taking out one Pokemon guaranteed doesn't have the same effect for other UU sweepers as it does for Raikou because Raikou is better than all of them and much harder to counter. That's why it's a suspect. Dugtrio only makes its job easier.
Honestly I would think it would depend on the Magnezone set your using yes? If Magnezone is scarfed and switches into a full health lead Metagross, trapping it, then Magnezone is boned because Metagross OHKO's with EQ while Magnezone can only muster a 2HKO with Thunderbolt/Hidden Power Fire (against non Metagross leads). Magnezone only beats Metagross assuming it has a sub up or Metagross has taken a serious amount of damage before hand. Magnezone can also come into a choiced attack (similar to it's way of dealing with Scizor) but it's not a guaranteed win against all Metagross sets.
Most Metagross sets do not carry enough speed to outspeed Stell killer variant of Magnezone (only one on the site was scarfed), so if it happens to carry the move, the floating manget may start to float by using Magnet rise.
Of course max speed Meta outspeeds and OKHOs with Earthquake and the ones carrying the gimmicky Hammer Arm cone on top.
But all this is not so relevant, because this is a UU therad after all, yes?
Of course max speed Meta outspeeds and OKHOs with Earthquake and the ones carrying the gimmicky Hammer Arm cone on top.
But all this is not so relevant, because this is a UU therad after all, yes?
It's perfectly legitimate to compare Magnezone in OU to Dugtrio in UU. Just because they are different metagame does not mean we shouldn't be using the same philosophy and logic for banning Pokemon.
So, really, there is nothing wrong with the statement: "Magnezone does essentially the same job in OU for <insert Dragon> as Dugtrio does for Raikou and it does it at no cost, therefore if Magnezone isn't Uber material, by similar logic Dugtrio isn't BL." It's kind of like certain mathematical proofs (read; Mean Value Theorem (I've been doing calculus for like 2354 hours straight so that's all I can think of)). Something can be proven "by similar logic".
And yes, nominate Froslass. FFS.
So, really, there is nothing wrong with the statement: "Magnezone does essentially the same job in OU for <insert Dragon> as Dugtrio does for Raikou and it does it at no cost, therefore if Magnezone isn't Uber material, by similar logic Dugtrio isn't BL." It's kind of like certain mathematical proofs (read; Mean Value Theorem (I've been doing calculus for like 2354 hours straight so that's all I can think of)). Something can be proven "by similar logic".
And yes, nominate Froslass. FFS.
Yes if you think a move is suspect feel free to nominate it.
I nominate Earthquake on Dugtrio and Torterra, Substitute on Raikou, Moltres, and Jumpluff, and also Sleep Powder, but only on Venusaur!
No, not really. And I know that banning moves on specific pokémon is a Bad Thing, except now that I have to explain that I know that, it's not funny any more.
Anyways, I missed the vote, and I don't think I'll even be putting up any noms, because I don't think any of the potential suspects are broken. Damp Rock I'd still support banning, and it would be fun (and also extra stupid) to see what a SR-less metagame would look like while we're on the topic of individual moves (and also dumb). Anyways, my "holy-crap-it's-3 am-and-I-can't-sleep" thoughts on the (potential) suspects:
Froslass: Super-annoying and really good, but I wouldn't exactly say brokenly good. I'd like to see it gone just because of the sheer annoyance factor. Also, if anyone thinks banning Froslass would mean no more spikestacking... lol
Raikou: Borderline BL (if that makes any sense). SubCM lacks coverage, CM + 3 atks can be statused, and Shuca Berry lacks power and still takes pretty heavy damage from Duggy. Definitely hard to counter, especially with three-ish viable sets, but none of them covers everything. P-Z was worse.
Moltres: It rips through teams unprepared for it, but it's manageable with a decentGyarados Moltres counter on your team. After all, it definitely has a buttload of offensive power, but it's not like Salamence Moltres is uncounterable. However, if someone can send me an excellent picture of Moltres in lingerie, I will wholeheartedly push to ban it. (Note: Please don't.)
Dugtrio: I vote we also nominate Sneasel. I mean, you can use pursuit and it doesn't give me a chance to switch out! What's the deal?
Damp Rock/Rain Dance (?): Violates thermodynamics by giving you a much bigger return than the effort you put in. You don't want the universe to explode, do you?
Kabutops (?): Ban the rock, if anything.
Milotic (why not?): It's a freaking great wall, possibly the best in UU. Stuff can set up on it, but stuff can set up on any wall, which makes proving the Defensive Characteristic nigh impossible, especially in a tier that loves stall and pulls a Chris Brown (not too soon, right?) on anything that can break through them. Not really too powerful for UU, but close.
Cradily: Well, I think it's broken. You can only stop it with Encore (while it sets up), a Trickscarfer (while it sets up), or very prompt switch to something with bamftastic Fighting moves (as it starts to set up). Stop looking at me like that, people nominated Aggron last time...
No, not really. And I know that banning moves on specific pokémon is a Bad Thing, except now that I have to explain that I know that, it's not funny any more.
Anyways, I missed the vote, and I don't think I'll even be putting up any noms, because I don't think any of the potential suspects are broken. Damp Rock I'd still support banning, and it would be fun (and also extra stupid) to see what a SR-less metagame would look like while we're on the topic of individual moves (and also dumb). Anyways, my "holy-crap-it's-3 am-and-I-can't-sleep" thoughts on the (potential) suspects:
Froslass: Super-annoying and really good, but I wouldn't exactly say brokenly good. I'd like to see it gone just because of the sheer annoyance factor. Also, if anyone thinks banning Froslass would mean no more spikestacking... lol
Raikou: Borderline BL (if that makes any sense). SubCM lacks coverage, CM + 3 atks can be statused, and Shuca Berry lacks power and still takes pretty heavy damage from Duggy. Definitely hard to counter, especially with three-ish viable sets, but none of them covers everything. P-Z was worse.
Moltres: It rips through teams unprepared for it, but it's manageable with a decent
Dugtrio: I vote we also nominate Sneasel. I mean, you can use pursuit and it doesn't give me a chance to switch out! What's the deal?
Damp Rock/Rain Dance (?): Violates thermodynamics by giving you a much bigger return than the effort you put in. You don't want the universe to explode, do you?
Kabutops (?): Ban the rock, if anything.
Milotic (why not?): It's a freaking great wall, possibly the best in UU. Stuff can set up on it, but stuff can set up on any wall, which makes proving the Defensive Characteristic nigh impossible, especially in a tier that loves stall and pulls a Chris Brown (not too soon, right?) on anything that can break through them. Not really too powerful for UU, but close.
Cradily: Well, I think it's broken. You can only stop it with Encore (while it sets up), a Trickscarfer (while it sets up), or very prompt switch to something with bamftastic Fighting moves (as it starts to set up). Stop looking at me like that, people nominated Aggron last time...
Holy crap, Banedon, you actually nominated SR/Spikes =O. While I admit, it was a great read, it's probably a bit too much to nominate (They've pretty much become standard). Although, I'm not saying you shouldn't, if you have a strong opinion, it's perfectly fine to nominate it. I would really like to see how this turns out.
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