• Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!

np: UU - Rain Drops Keep Falling on my Head

Status
Not open for further replies.
Missed vote = missed requirements :P

Lot of team building/testing + not a lot of matches + being barely good enough to make them when I'm really going for it. Any other excuses i forgot?
 
Taking a moment to breathe after laughing at the entry hazard nom. At least it wasn't actually Rain Dance like I was expecting...

Seriously, the notion of Dugtrio for BL is just UU's love letter to Registeel. If you don't want your precious Regi to get ganked by Dugtrio, put a Shed Shell on it. SHAZAM! You win! If it's choiced, you have free reign to set up or lay spikes or put up screens or question your opponent's sexual orientation or do whatever else your team needs to gain momentum. If it's LO, well, it's got Base 80 attack, no defense investment, and 211 hitpoints. We're talking about a pokémon that makes a Moltres that just switched into SR look like a tank. And there you have it. The momentum is yours.

But you don't want to put a Shed Shell on your Registeel? Too bad. The argument against Dugtrio is largely focused on its ability to take out Registeel, and its ability to take out Registeel is almost entirely dependent on whether or not Registeel runs Shed Shell or Leftovers. So what we're really saying is that Dugtrio ruins the metagame by making the God-Emperor of Stall, the all-holy Registeel, either lose its 6% a turn from leftovers or get taken out by a fairly popular pokémon. Heaven forbid we adjust to the current trends. It's not like people have run a Scarfed Primeape to beat RP Torterra or used Hypno to counter Venusaur or used Golduck and Gardevoir to counter rain teams.

Oh, wait...

I am quoting this because it is a very good post and also because it made me laugh. It worries me how often this subforum seems to take the approach of "I'm entitled not to have to adapt for some reason, let's change the system to better suit my current position!" Rain dance is a good example, as are the upper reqs for that matter. Dugtrio is maybe the more ridiculous case, but they all seem to boil down to people wanting to be able to keep doing what they've always done and being fairly unwilling to react when there are plenty of changes they could make to continue being successful.

Part of me is just content to ignore the Dugtrio bandwagoning since I think trapping is a really poor game mechanic. I don't think it's a good thing for a game that in theory relies mostly on prediction for choice to be taken away too much - at least with pursuit, it isn't usually killing Pokemon if you choose not to switch, so there's still some prediction involved (although Mismagius and Alakazam might disagree with me on that). I hated Dugtrio in Advance OU (and to a lesser extent Magneton) for a lot of the same reasons people have posted here, though back then we didn't even have the option of Shed Shell and it still wasn't ever even considered for Uber by anyone who wasn't a joke. There was a hell of a lot less priority then, too, and the walls were largely the same Pokemon they are in DPP UU. Magnezone in DPP OU is a good example, too, and I sure can't imagine it ever getting removed.

I'm still pretty unimpressed by Raikou. I think there are some arguments for it being BL I would disagree with but tolerate, but the extent to which its power is exaggerated in this thread is ridiculous. I think I feel comfortable saying I did pretty adequately this period playing offensively inclined teams exclusively, never used Registeel, Chansey, or anything else that is listed here as a "counter" (including Toreterra, Steelix, Rhyperior, Quagsire, etc. The closest I had to a "counter" was a Venusaur with no defensive investment, which I didn't switch in to a Raikou at any point this period since it would still have been suicide), and it was fairly rare I had significant issues with it, though obviously my team would have been better not having to worry about it due to the general lack of good options to deal with it. However, I will not be voting it BL just because I would be better off without it, which seems to be the modus operandi of some of the voters.

Damp Rock for BL still makes me laugh (though it hasn't been nommed yet), especially this period when so many people were running anti-rain - I would love to see someone get to the upper reqs using rain exclusively.
 
Also, if anyone thinks banning Froslass would mean no more spikestacking... lol
True, but I voted her for this all the same. The difference is Pokemon with 50- to 80-odd base speed have a harder time getting spikes down than Froslass, who can almost just spam them. Spikes are a bitch when they are down, but I never saw them laid with such ease before Froslass returned to the tier. So yeah, QFT. But I don't think spike stacking would be as common on the wide range of teams that they are now (since Froslass can fit in on offensive or stall teams, and all the types between).

Taking a moment to breathe after laughing at the entry hazard nom.
Lol. I died a little inside. UU without Stealth Rock = Moltres on and CB Scyther on every team. Banedon, you're arguing that entry hazards make sweeping too easy for Pokemon like Moltres, yet hazards are ultimately what keep a lot of sweepers at bay. Without hazards, you are removing an entire playstyle (stall) from the metagame.

Clefablelol.png


As for Dugtrio, I'd rather run Counter somewhere on Registeel and Chansey than Shell Bell.
 
I think even more than that, the tiers are so much based around SR's existance - Moltres and Scyther would probably not even be UU this gen without SR existing. There's plenty of other Pokemon that are mistiered in a hazardless game, too (even Arcanine probably wouldn't be in UU). I'm all for making the game slightly more desirable, but in addition to the obvious continuity issues between the tiers that would create I think that goes way passed managing the metagame toward making a game that is decisively less "Pokemon" than it was before - as much as entry hazards should probably have never been improved past where they were in GSC from the development end.




Honestly, if Froslass didn't basically single handedly determine my lead I'd prefer it to Omastar/etc. - at least it gets chopped up like squirrel under a battle axe to most halfway decent attacks (blah blah it survives Blastoise Surf, as though that is a halfway decent attack, I know, I know).
 
Lol. I died a little inside. UU without Stealth Rock = Moltres on and CB Scyther on every team. Banedon, you're arguing that entry hazards make sweeping too easy for Pokemon like Moltres, yet hazards are ultimately what keep a lot of sweepers at bay. Without hazards, you are removing an entire playstyle (stall) from the metagame.

I know, that's why I'm not expecting anything to happen due to this nomination ... even if 50 other people nominated entry hazards, actually putting it up for suspect voting would be very dangerous to say the least. A UU metagame without entry hazards but an OU metagame with it would also be very ... weird. The tiers would be completely thrown out of sync. Like you say, Moltres would be overpowered without Stealth Rock in UU. If Stealth Rock weren't in OU, it would probably make the cut there as well. If Stealth Rock gets banned in UU but not in OU, there'd be a whole heap of Pokemon too powerful for UU as we know it, but still too weak for OU because Stealth Rock is still there. Furthermore, entry hazards have worked their way into teams so deeply that losing them will cause massive upheavals in the metagame. It'd probably cause an upheaval greater than if 10 new Pokemon suddenly entered UU. If entry hazards are to be banned, it shouldn't be through this UU suspect process.

Nonetheless, for the reasons I outlined in the nomination, I think the metagame will be better without entry hazards. And so I nominate it ...

Synre said:
Taking a moment to breathe after laughing at the entry hazard nom. At least it wasn't actually Rain Dance like I was expecting...

Aw you didn't believe me even though I said I wouldn't be nominating Rain Dance ... :(:(:(
 
no; theoretically the necessary data should have already been taken (although I'm not exactly sure on the mechanics of it, either way the answer is right).
 
The dugtrio nominations are so bullshit. Really, there is a thing called shed shell. Of course skarmory don't use it in Ou because magnezone was banne....oh...
 
oh okay, i was just wondering because i won a few matches and my deviation went up.

edit: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69862

Raikou with Aura Sphere? This might prove to make him BL.

As much as I hate to, I'm gonna have to agree. Raikou with Aura Sphere would indeed be broken. However, it is a shiny event Pokemon, meaning it has a set nature. If that nature doesn't boost Speed or Sp. Atk, it's worthless. Not to mention that Shoddy 1 can't do set natures for certain moves, so we have to wait for Shoddy 2 to use Aura Sphere Raikou.
 
Aura Sphere could be the "special circumstances" that prove Raikou to be broken since it makes Registeel a one time check at best, but Im not going to theorymon here.

Entei with Extremespeed and Howl gives Arcanine serious competition, and it'll be better than CBCanine now at least.
 
I think that this is the first time I've ever actually wanted to stop reading the nominations outright. I mean, sure, people are paranoid now because Froslass wasn't even nominated last time, but seriously, a whole bunch of posts saying the same freaking thing over and over again are just not fun to read at all.

Also, I've tolerated legalistic treatments of the Uber Characteristics and the Desirable Metagame Characteristics for quite a while, but recently it's just gotten completely and utterly ridiculous. The scary part is that Banedon's nomination was probably one of the best written ones, which really puts into question how good any of these arguments really are.
 
I just want to address a couple things here that I couldn't help but notice about the nomination thread:

1. People are using contradictory reasoning to nominate two Pokemon. Think about it for a second. If you're nominating Dugtrio for taking out Raikou's counters so easily, but THEN nominating Raikou for sweeping to easily with too little effort...you get the point. It doesn't make a lick of sense. If you're nominating Froslass for setting up Spikes too easily and making Pokemon such as Moltres sweep too easily, and then you're nominating Moltres for sweeping too easily...again, think before you nominate.

X is broken because it is too good. Y is too good because it makes X too good. It can't be both, which is it? One disproves the other!

So if you're one of those people who nominated Froslass and Moltres, or Dugtrio and Raikou, (or all four) then make sure you aren't being contradictory. Especially for Dugtrio and Raikou...like there really isn't any other Pokemon Dugtrio helps sweep to the same degree.

2. Banedon. I am truly impressed with this post, it is definitely one of the better nominations. However, again, think about it. Why not just nominate something feasible like, you know, Froslass? If Spikes are broken, nominate the Spikers. Banning a move is a long shot, and realistically we won't see that happen in this generation. If your goal wasn't to actually get anything concrete done but "get the idea out there", then disregard this.
 
Looks like bringing up Dugtrio a suspect a few page back was a good idea. People now recognize its supporting ability. Dragon boy nailed it as well; why the hell do we care about who is set-up bait? Dugtrio gets the job done by trapping *insert Pokemon*, meaning it has accomplished its task. How i set up with *insert Pokemon* is none of your concerns, when the true fact is, i removed your *insert check here*. Thank god for upper reqs this round, 2 sentences should be enough for me.

Also I'm not impressed with the nomination of Spikes and Stealth Rock. Are people really that crazy about entry hazards? There is Rapid Spin for a reason. If Spikes and Stealth Rocks are a concern, then use Rapid Spin. Simple as that.

@ Heysup

The reason why I am not nominating Raikou (I am a big supporter of it being powerful though, albeit not broken) is because it is not sweeping enough by itself. From experience, the one responsible to easier sweeps is Dugtrio. Raikou by itself is somewhat underwhelming as an offensive sweeper. Moltres on the other hand is someone I'm on the fence with, but I'll have to think about it, for now I'm sticking to Froslass and Dugtrio.
 
"Think about it for a second. If you're nominating Dugtrio for taking out Raikou's counters so easily, but THEN nominating Raikou for sweeping to easily with too little effort...you get the point."

Thank you so much for bringing this up heysup. If you people who play this game are smart, and you should be, otherwise you'd be playing something else.. don't nominate dug or raikou.
 
Erazor said:
Of course, if this isn't reason enough to ban it, I'd like to mention Froslass in Hail with Substitute. "Bitch", "Slut", "Whore", "Motherfucker", and "Bastard" barely begin to describe it. Hail makes an already broken pokemon simply unplayable.

Erazor has the most entertaining nom posts, seriously. (A few others have had similarly entertaining posts but they seem to have faded away. I'm looking at you SDS.) I can get behind it, too, having used Froslass in Hail myself. She sets Spikes up so easily against so many opponents it's amazing.
 
@ Heysup

The reason why I am not nominating Raikou (I am a big supporter of it being powerful though, albeit not broken) is because it is not sweeping enough by itself. From experience, the one responsible to easier sweeps is Dugtrio. Raikou by itself is somewhat underwhelming as an offensive sweeper. Moltres on the other hand is someone I'm on the fence with, but I'll have to think about it, for now I'm sticking to Froslass and Dugtrio.

If you reread my post, that's exactly what I'm saying is completely fine. If you were to nominate Dugtrio AND Raikou (or similarly, Moltres and Froslass), then I'd be accusing you of being contradictory. Just Dugtrio and Froslass makes sense. At least, it isn't contradictory (I'm still not about to say that nominating Dugtrio makes any sense).
 
Well, I have my Raikou paragraph done, but its my first time writing a nomination. Can I PM someone to take a look at it?
 
Just by glancing at the nomination thread, looks like pretty much every suspect is completely fucked. Froslass and Raikou don't even need votes seeing how many nominations there were for them. Moltres and Duggy also look screwed, albeit not as much.

While I'll miss Raikou, I don't actually mind that much. Now I can use Specs Manectric! >:D

I still don't get how LO Kou is broken. SubCM, maybe, but I don't enjoy using sweepers who live for two turns and then die. Yesterday, I played four teams in a row that all had a Raikou check/counter: Sp. Defensive Venusaur, Chansey, Dugtrio, and Scarf Hitmonlee. Also, how do you set up a Calm Mind without taking a ton of damage in the process? I have only pulled off one LO Kou sweep, and that was because the idiot left their Froslass in on my Raikou, whereas I have puller off plenty of SubCM sweeps.
 
If you reread my post, that's exactly what I'm saying is completely fine. If you were to nominate Dugtrio AND Raikou (or similarly, Moltres and Froslass), then I'd be accusing you of being contradictory. Just Dugtrio and Froslass makes sense. At least, it isn't contradictory (I'm still not about to say that nominating Dugtrio makes any sense).

Ah I thought you meant voting Froslass and Dugtrio, but not mentioning Raikou is contradictory and meant absolutely no sense. I guess I need to comprehend better :P
 
Just by glancing at the nomination thread, looks like pretty much every suspect is completely fucked. Froslass and Raikou don't even need votes seeing how many nominations there were for them. Moltres and Duggy also look screwed, albeit not as much.

While I'll miss Raikou, I don't actually mind that much. Now I can use Specs Manectric! >:D

I still don't get how LO Kou is broken. SubCM, maybe, but I don't enjoy using sweepers who live for two turns and then die. Yesterday, I played four teams in a row that all had a Raikou check/counter: Sp. Defensive Venusaur, Chansey, Dugtrio, and Scarf Hitmonlee. Also, how do you set up a Calm Mind without taking a ton of damage in the process? I have only pulled off one LO Kou sweep, and that was because the idiot left their Froslass in on my Raikou, whereas I have puller off plenty of SubCM sweeps.

Sp. Defensive Venusaur is 2HKO by boosted Extra sensory.
62.1% - 73.1%. Your only way of stopping Raikou with Venusaur is by putting it to sleep. If sleep clause is in effect, Venusaur can't do squat Raikou.

You also forget that Venusaur isn't that great on offensive teams. Bad ass put the best. Offense relies on resistances rather than outright walls.

If you use Venusaur on offense, you may as well run Scarf/Jolly SD.

Scarf Hitmonlee can't really switch into Raikou period.
Extra Sensory deals - 76.5% - 90.8%
Thunderbolt deals - 68.1% - 80.5%

Raikou is forced out... once.

And I know you. There's no way in hell that you'd run Chansey especially on offense.



Ugh, Dugtrio for UU voters prepare your paragraphs.. looks like we're in for a tight one

Buckle up, it's going to be a wild Lightning ride.
 
Just by glancing at the nomination thread, looks like pretty much every suspect is completely fucked. Froslass and Raikou don't even need votes seeing how many nominations there were for them. Moltres and Duggy also look screwed, albeit not as much.

While I'll miss Raikou, I don't actually mind that much. Now I can use Specs Manectric! >:D

I still don't get how LO Kou is broken. SubCM, maybe, but I don't enjoy using sweepers who live for two turns and then die. Yesterday, I played four teams in a row that all had a Raikou check/counter: Sp. Defensive Venusaur, Chansey, Dugtrio, and Scarf Hitmonlee. Also, how do you set up a Calm Mind without taking a ton of damage in the process? I have only pulled off one LO Kou sweep, and that was because the idiot left their Froslass in on my Raikou, whereas I have puller off plenty of SubCM sweeps.

I used to think you had to CM up before sweeping, too. >.<

The trick is just firing off Thunderbolts from the start and CMing up whenever you get the opportunity. Like, for example, you don't CM up on a Mismagius even though you know it can't hurt you that badly because the LO will, so what I do is just go straight for the attack. Sometimes, I sweep even without a CM, and the power it gets after a CM is just ridiculous. So, in exchange for survivability (which doesn't matter as you'll be hitting HARD) you get the ability to sweep right off the bat which is amazing for something as fast as Raikou. Sometimes, I even consider running Sub or Magnet rise for the lulz, but another attack would probably be better instead of CM.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top