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np: UU - Rain Drops Keep Falling on my Head
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
- Start date
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Yeah but Murkrow just dies coming in on any other move, even Honchkrow had troubles switching in sometimes.
What has changed since the last time Raikou was voted Suspect that makes him BL now?
Apparently UU players went from slightly fickle to very very very fickle and banhappy
I'm kind of disappointed with the suspects, hopefully the voting turns out to be correct and really places the Pokemon in the right tiers. Please think before you vote, and get Froslass the fuck out of the tier.
All I care about is Frosslass going away
Moltres is NOT broken (at least not the lifeorb set people are saying is broken)... it is just a top tier threat that frosslass makes broken.
dugtrio as a suspect is laughable.
raikou... idk its a pain in the ass and powerful as hell but idk if its broken.
It's not broken in my opinion as of now. When it gets Aura Sphere it's obviously gonna get the boot, but as of now I disagree that it's broken. Powerful yes, but not broken.
It does matter why UU voters didn't cast Raikou as a suspect last round. I don't know how long you've been playing UU, but the current metagame you're playing in is very similar to one of the earlier rounds of UU testing, way back when Dugtrio and Donphan were initially dropped. Nothing much has changed, and yet the UU population feels the urge to change their viewpoint on Raikou. This is why I always criticize the voting pool; in the same way you guys mishandled Froslass, you're mishandling Raikou.
And Synre made a good point. When Dugtrio usage is going up, how can you possibly justify that Raikou is broken? Lets say I give you the benefit of the doubt that Raikou is broken. The evidence you all provide doesn't support such an assertion.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: people are way too ban-happy. There are certain things that deserve to go, but then there are also things that are powerful that deserve to stay. I'm getting the impression that everytime a new threat surfaces, players just want to get rid of it if they lose to it rather than ADAPTING TO IT AND THINKING OF WAYS TO BEAT IT.
Either that, or the majority of the community thinks it isn't broken. Seriously, we know you absolutely hate Raikou, but that doesn't mean that everyone else does also.
Why don't you make it to a level of education where you have to learn proper argumentation and then try to talk to me. It isn't "clearly" anything other than difficult to counter for lazy, subpar players. The only thing "clear" in the last several posts is that you used a bunch of stupid hyperbole and logical fallacies to avoid actually making a point.
Raikou is more than dealable. While he's no paper bag, he has trouble with scarfers and priority moves, like every offensively inclined Pokemon. He doesn't do well against Chansey or Registeel or defensively EVs Grass types in general (running HP Ice to prevent this is a terrible coverage decision and creates a weakness to a variety of other threats), and obviously Dugtrio is a big issue. There are a few pokemon that outrun him and force him out, he performs poorly against all types of weather, and there are quite a large number of Pokemon that survive the initial non-CMed hit and KO with something like EQ or at least hit it hard enough that it's a one for one.
He's definitely one of the best Pokemon in the game, but "ban happy" is right - this subforum has this inexplicable urge to target whatever the most powerful threat is at the time and ban it because it's the most powerful without really making any effort at gauging whether or not it's "too good" or just "good. There's certainly reasonable arguments that can be made that he is or isn't BL, but either side (especially the BL side, since he's been voted UU twice in a row now) assuming that they are somehow inherently correct just reeks of inexperience. He's one of the best Pokemon in the game at exploiting the free turns people love to give it by trying to play too defensively against it with teams that aren't designed in a way for that strategy to have any real chance of success against it - maybe that's the problem people are having.
It'll be interesting to see how the vote turns out, though Froslass is the more interesting worry for me. I'd be somewhat enthusiastic about the Moltres vote, but Charizard is good enough that I don't think it'll matter much in the long term.
Heysup said:
I'm not sure you can support one bandwagon and complain about another, man! :(
The nomination process is kind of inherently bandwagony anyway, just have to hope the majority of the intelligent individuals who post in this thread and that one don't get voting rights. Definitely agree about Dugtrio, though... I think I'd be happy if it somehow got removed just because of how uninteresting the trapping mechanic is, but I'm rolling my eyes at him almost as much as the Aggron noms we've had(though trio is obviously much better).
I have mixed feelings on Raikou. It certainly has ways of being stopped (Chansey and Registeel), and bulky grass or ground types can stop raikou as well depending on the Hidden Power it uses (or if it decides to go with shadow ball or Extrasensory), but that combination of speed, bulk, and power is quite astounding. It has ways around some of the counters, especially when you consider that a Hidden Power Ice from Raikou is nearly enough to take down Dugtrio (1 layer of spikes guarantees it iirc), and Crokou can set up on Chansey, although it has some problems with some of the other counters.
Regarding Dugtrio usage increases and Raikou, the fact that Dugtrio is on the rise could go either way. Dugtrio is being used more could indicate that people are having difficulty with Raikou, and therefore they turn to Dugtrio (Venusaur was a common check before everyone decided to run Extrasensory of late) to remove it more assuredly. On the other hand, Dugtrio could be used in tandem with Raikou to remove Registeel and Blissey from the equation. The point I am making is that Dugtrio usage moves are in no way conclusive regarding Raikou's power in the metagame.
I think that Froslass is certainly the prime suspect this time around, and there seems to be little argument (I didn't do a paragraph for it because it seemed to be pretty well covered).
I think that I would like to see how Moltres does without Froslass around before banning it.
One possible suspect that has not gotten very much attention is Kabutops. I think that just getting rid of Kabutops might be better than removing Damp Rock, as it allows rain to still be powerful but stops it from being such a persistent threat that every team must prepare so much for it.
What are people's thoughts on Mismagius? I think that it is possibly more suspect than Raikou, but Mismagius probably has enough checks to allow it to stay, especially considering how hard it is hurt by priority attacks. It is quite versatile and powerful though.
Regarding Dugtrio usage increases and Raikou, the fact that Dugtrio is on the rise could go either way. Dugtrio is being used more could indicate that people are having difficulty with Raikou, and therefore they turn to Dugtrio (Venusaur was a common check before everyone decided to run Extrasensory of late) to remove it more assuredly. On the other hand, Dugtrio could be used in tandem with Raikou to remove Registeel and Blissey from the equation. The point I am making is that Dugtrio usage moves are in no way conclusive regarding Raikou's power in the metagame.
I think that Froslass is certainly the prime suspect this time around, and there seems to be little argument (I didn't do a paragraph for it because it seemed to be pretty well covered).
I think that I would like to see how Moltres does without Froslass around before banning it.
One possible suspect that has not gotten very much attention is Kabutops. I think that just getting rid of Kabutops might be better than removing Damp Rock, as it allows rain to still be powerful but stops it from being such a persistent threat that every team must prepare so much for it.
What are people's thoughts on Mismagius? I think that it is possibly more suspect than Raikou, but Mismagius probably has enough checks to allow it to stay, especially considering how hard it is hurt by priority attacks. It is quite versatile and powerful though.
Really, I only hate Raikou becasuse it really limits offensive teams. Offensive teams have to tweak their team JUST to deal with Raikou. It only has 3 checks when using an offensive team. (The bade 120's Sceptile/Dugtrio and Swellow)
I hate having to stick in Registeel on every team I make.
I don't know much about the past UU but Raikou has become a whole lot more popular.
(I started playing UU during the Cress era)
I hate having to stick in Registeel on every team I make.
I don't know much about the past UU but Raikou has become a whole lot more popular.
(I started playing UU during the Cress era)
Sorry I am away from my computer and currently limited to the DSI.
I mentioned that Raikou was broken against offensive teams. They don't carry tge aforementioned pokemon and shouldn't be relying strictly on priority to deal with them.
For what it's worth I had 0 uses of the following Pokemon last period: Sceptile, Dugtrio, Registeel. See also: Chansey, Swellow
I played every game with either an offensive team or rain, and my rain team did statistically worse than my offensive teams in addition to playing in a great deal fewer games. I feel like I did ok in spite of a period full of bad luck and poor play on my end - the necessity of these Pokemon to deal with Raikou is greatly exaggerated, especially by offensive teams.
I played every game with either an offensive team or rain, and my rain team did statistically worse than my offensive teams in addition to playing in a great deal fewer games. I feel like I did ok in spite of a period full of bad luck and poor play on my end - the necessity of these Pokemon to deal with Raikou is greatly exaggerated, especially by offensive teams.
rain didn't cause nearly the ripple it did last time. people actually... u know... prepared for rain instead of complaining about it. kabutops is no where near broken.
mismagious is not even close to a suspect.
Who the fuck runs Crokou?
Lol, that would be absolutely hilarious.
If the nominations thread is anything to go by, Raikou is completely fucked.
May I kindly ask what pokemon you used on offense to maneuver around Raikou? I`m not trying to sound snide, i'm just curious.
This really bothers me. If youre using offense and youre not using any of those three, a scarfer or priority, then youre really just doing it wrong. Offense honestly should never lose more than one pokemon to Raikou, especially LO Raikou.
I played you enough times I'd think you'd know. I have a lot of priority, several Pokemon that survive a hit or two and do significant damage, and only a couple attacks throughout the team it gets a free switch in on. Raikou is not all that dangerous if you don't let CM and if you let it CM with offense without putting yourself in a position to kill it as it CMs, if not killing it outright, you suck or the battle is already over.
This is my biggest problem with the mentality going on about how it says in the OP that "Raikou will need special circumstances".
Just because something was voted UU <insert number of times> it is still constantly becoming a suspect which tells you that the majority of players (albeit, not "only" good ones; otherwise it'd be banned already) do think it's broken.
I don't think it makes remotely any sense to have the previous voting rounds hold any grounds on a Pokemon's tiering status. If it's broken, it's broken. What makes it different if Raikou is banned now? More people have been convinced / are getting voting rights. That's all that needs to change.
This isn't to say the previous voters were "wrong", it's just that if more people have been convinced / are getting rights, they should (and likely will) have the right to vote it BL if that's what they think.
Hey now, Raikou is not a bandwagon (I've been pushing for it BL since uhhh.....round one). Is it that crazy to think that more people are playing / becoming convinced? :(
But every offensive team needs some sort of revenge killer or other checks to some other offensive threats, because if they don't prepare for that they lose to "everything". Should an Offensive team not be "allowed" to use Scarf Rotom, SubCharge Rotom, NP Missy, Froslass, Moltres, Milotic, Feraligatr, <insert other Pokemon that Raikou sets up against>? Let's find a good team of 6 Offensive Pokemon that "all" stop Raikou from getting Calm Minds - well you can, because I don't think it's impossible.
It will get Calm Minds, even against good offensive teams and players. The way I deal with it is using many checks, but I cannot counter it for my life and it can set up against a fair amount of my Pokemon. I just need to "kill them before they kill me", usually with my own Raikou.
All right then.
First off, I don't get all the whining about previous Raikou votes. Metagames shift; it's just how they work. Sometimes, a Pokemon that was previously voted acceptable in a metagame gets controversial again merely because of certain trends in its usage/sets. Latias is a prime example; even though the abundance of Tyranitar and Heatran now (compared to when it was voted OU) should theoretically limit its viability, people are still having issues with it. I'm not going to comment much more than that on Latias since I'm not at all farmiliar with OU anymore, but I will just say that "well we voted it UU before so it must be UU now" is a pretty shitty argument.
Now then, as to why Raikou is suddenly prominent now...simply put, the metagame before this one had Cresselia. Cresselia was not only a fantastic counter to the LO 3 attacks Kou set, CM Cress also beat CM Kou one on one (what is with this "Raikou can set up on Cresselia" shit, Cress has Moonlight and Raikou doesn't). Additionally, Cresselia's very existence saw massive spikes in Umbreon, specially defensive Drapion, Registeel, Chansey, Clefable, etc. etc, all of which give Raikou trouble. When the most broken shit to ever grace this metagame beat Raikou one on one, and when it centralized the entire metagame in a manner unfavorable to Raikou, we should expect that it would have been considered less broken.
As for Dugtrio, Dugtrio's prominence in this metagame helps Raikou, not hurts it. Yeah Dugtrio can beat Raikou (assuming it doesn't switch in to a Sub, in which case it loses) but it also kills Registeel, which is often the only thing preventing Raikou from sweeping most Balanced or Semi-Offensive teams. Sure, Registeel could run Shed Shell, but then it'll lose to Raikou itself much much easier, since it will no longer be capable of walling Raikou after one switchin into LO Thunderbolt + 1 layer of spikes and SR.
tl;dr Raikou is better in this metagame than the previous one for easily qualified reasons.
Now, for the fun theorymoning. Assuming Raikou and whorelass get banned, I'm expecting sharp decreases in the spinners, increases in Mismagius and Rotom, a continuing increase in Torterra, increases in Omastar and Cloyster usage, decreases in lead Hariyama and lead Tomb, increases in Trickscarf leads, and...other stuff.
Additionally, I've been using Manectric. Sub/Charge Beam/Tbolt/Flamethrower. I was thinking about getting rid of Charge Beam and replacing it with HP Grass because Donphan and Rhyperior have been pissing me off, but then I lose to Umbreon and Clefable. Getting rid of Sub or even Tbolt for HP Grass is tempting though...
And finally, Kabutops. I'm using Kabutops as a standalone sweeper in one of my other teams, and it's much more effective than I would have thought. Basically it's like a bulkier SD Ken with STAB priority and better defenses but slightly worse offensive STABs. I'm not going to bother addressing the nominations (since it's not a suspect, it would be wasted effort) except to say that Kabutops is not broken outside of rain and so it doesn't deserve a ban (which incidentally is my rationale for thinking Moltres UU as well).
First off, I don't get all the whining about previous Raikou votes. Metagames shift; it's just how they work. Sometimes, a Pokemon that was previously voted acceptable in a metagame gets controversial again merely because of certain trends in its usage/sets. Latias is a prime example; even though the abundance of Tyranitar and Heatran now (compared to when it was voted OU) should theoretically limit its viability, people are still having issues with it. I'm not going to comment much more than that on Latias since I'm not at all farmiliar with OU anymore, but I will just say that "well we voted it UU before so it must be UU now" is a pretty shitty argument.
Now then, as to why Raikou is suddenly prominent now...simply put, the metagame before this one had Cresselia. Cresselia was not only a fantastic counter to the LO 3 attacks Kou set, CM Cress also beat CM Kou one on one (what is with this "Raikou can set up on Cresselia" shit, Cress has Moonlight and Raikou doesn't). Additionally, Cresselia's very existence saw massive spikes in Umbreon, specially defensive Drapion, Registeel, Chansey, Clefable, etc. etc, all of which give Raikou trouble. When the most broken shit to ever grace this metagame beat Raikou one on one, and when it centralized the entire metagame in a manner unfavorable to Raikou, we should expect that it would have been considered less broken.
As for Dugtrio, Dugtrio's prominence in this metagame helps Raikou, not hurts it. Yeah Dugtrio can beat Raikou (assuming it doesn't switch in to a Sub, in which case it loses) but it also kills Registeel, which is often the only thing preventing Raikou from sweeping most Balanced or Semi-Offensive teams. Sure, Registeel could run Shed Shell, but then it'll lose to Raikou itself much much easier, since it will no longer be capable of walling Raikou after one switchin into LO Thunderbolt + 1 layer of spikes and SR.
tl;dr Raikou is better in this metagame than the previous one for easily qualified reasons.
Now, for the fun theorymoning. Assuming Raikou and whorelass get banned, I'm expecting sharp decreases in the spinners, increases in Mismagius and Rotom, a continuing increase in Torterra, increases in Omastar and Cloyster usage, decreases in lead Hariyama and lead Tomb, increases in Trickscarf leads, and...other stuff.
Additionally, I've been using Manectric. Sub/Charge Beam/Tbolt/Flamethrower. I was thinking about getting rid of Charge Beam and replacing it with HP Grass because Donphan and Rhyperior have been pissing me off, but then I lose to Umbreon and Clefable. Getting rid of Sub or even Tbolt for HP Grass is tempting though...
And finally, Kabutops. I'm using Kabutops as a standalone sweeper in one of my other teams, and it's much more effective than I would have thought. Basically it's like a bulkier SD Ken with STAB priority and better defenses but slightly worse offensive STABs. I'm not going to bother addressing the nominations (since it's not a suspect, it would be wasted effort) except to say that Kabutops is not broken outside of rain and so it doesn't deserve a ban (which incidentally is my rationale for thinking Moltres UU as well).
Both what I'm posting and what I'm replying to are pretty much irrelevant at this point since it's already a suspect but since you posted anyway...
Except Latias was just as broken the first time as it is this time in the eyes of a majority of the stronger players I've talked to about it, has been bitched about constantly for months, and just nowish has the majority come around. If only the top .1% or whatever was voting Latias would have been gone a long time ago - I'm not really sure this metaphor holds much water.
Though this metaphor is particularly irrelevant and people who don't understand metaphors are going to ask why we're talking about OU in the UU thread and yeah we should just drop it.
I'd take Raikou over Cress last period (since most people were running Sub/Lefties, rather than LO/3attack, which is better this period), but its mostly irrelevant since I agree it is evidence the metagame changed some either way.
What I do take exception to is all those other psuedo counters - if they helped counter Raikou, why do people feel they're somehow entitled not to use them now? Umbreon in particular is still pretty popular(especially in tours since like half the battlers were using AM's team...) and useful, Registeel and Chansey have always been and always will be everywhere unless we ban them because they require no thought to use to counter 1/3+ of the metagame, Clefable is still good, unpredictable and on a lot of good players teams, etc. It's not like any of these other sort-of-counters got banned, people can use them if they want to and if they choose not to and get swept by Raikou they probably should have prepared. It's not like any of those Pokemon are only good against Raikou as though they're countering Moltres with Magcargo or whatever, either.
Except suspect Raikou doesn't have sub, since it's being nominated and argued about because of LO 3 Attacks this period(not to mention it was running sub/CM last period, Dugtrio either hurts it or the metagame changed enough for it to be logical to vote on it again, not both). Either way, I'd say Dugtrio hurts it more than it helps it - Raikou isn't sweeping anything when it's dead. It only helps it more than it hurts it if Raikou's team has it and its opponents team doesn't, which isn't a very strong argument.
Except Latias was just as broken the first time as it is this time in the eyes of a majority of the stronger players I've talked to about it, has been bitched about constantly for months, and just nowish has the majority come around. If only the top .1% or whatever was voting Latias would have been gone a long time ago - I'm not really sure this metaphor holds much water.
Though this metaphor is particularly irrelevant and people who don't understand metaphors are going to ask why we're talking about OU in the UU thread and yeah we should just drop it.
FlareBlitz said:
I'd take Raikou over Cress last period (since most people were running Sub/Lefties, rather than LO/3attack, which is better this period), but its mostly irrelevant since I agree it is evidence the metagame changed some either way.
What I do take exception to is all those other psuedo counters - if they helped counter Raikou, why do people feel they're somehow entitled not to use them now? Umbreon in particular is still pretty popular(especially in tours since like half the battlers were using AM's team...) and useful, Registeel and Chansey have always been and always will be everywhere unless we ban them because they require no thought to use to counter 1/3+ of the metagame, Clefable is still good, unpredictable and on a lot of good players teams, etc. It's not like any of these other sort-of-counters got banned, people can use them if they want to and if they choose not to and get swept by Raikou they probably should have prepared. It's not like any of those Pokemon are only good against Raikou as though they're countering Moltres with Magcargo or whatever, either.
FlareBlitz said:
Except suspect Raikou doesn't have sub, since it's being nominated and argued about because of LO 3 Attacks this period(not to mention it was running sub/CM last period, Dugtrio either hurts it or the metagame changed enough for it to be logical to vote on it again, not both). Either way, I'd say Dugtrio hurts it more than it helps it - Raikou isn't sweeping anything when it's dead. It only helps it more than it hurts it if Raikou's team has it and its opponents team doesn't, which isn't a very strong argument.
Note: I am on the fence with Raikou currently
How is Raikou clearly broken?? Would you like to prove that statement?? I can say that 2+2 clearly = 5 by that logic. I can also claim that sin^2(theta)+cos^2(theta) = 2 by that logic. Where is your evidence?? If Raikou is so CLEARLY broken, it would have been banned ages ago.
Anything fast, to be honest. Dugtrio, Sceptile, Swellow, a reasonably fast Scarfer like Venusaur, if you're playing Rain, any of the Rain sweepers. A Raikou of your own can also slow down an opposing Raikou's rampage. A defensive pivot that like Registeel can also stop Raikou somewhat. Yes, Raikou does not have a proper counter on offensive teams, but if you're playing an offensive team while trying to counter every threat, you should just give up and play stall.
There we go. You hate Raikou because it's a bitch to you, while the rest of metagame can adapt to it (But seriously, offense can deal with Raikou, maybe it might have a bit of trouble, but overall, it's fine). If a Pokemon limits a playstyle, so be it. Let's ban Blissey because of her ability to wall special attackers. Let's ban Tyranitar and Scizor because Psychics are going to extinction. Let's ban pretty much every Pokemon if you're playing GSC because Stall was so prevalent.
Anyway, on the topic of Kabutops, I simply love him as a sweeper. Screw Rain, I say, he is good enough as he is. To bring myself back to Agility LO Kingler I was talking about yesterday, he can pair with SD Kabutops reasonably well, like a double-Water combo, as such. Kingler's coverage is fine as it is. Water/Normal is great attacking synergy, and he can use X-Scissor to put the hurt of bulky Grass Pokemon (May not kill them, but that's what Kabutops is for, to clean up). It can also be used vice-versa.
How is Raikou clearly broken?? Would you like to prove that statement?? I can say that 2+2 clearly = 5 by that logic. I can also claim that sin^2(theta)+cos^2(theta) = 2 by that logic. Where is your evidence?? If Raikou is so CLEARLY broken, it would have been banned ages ago.
Anything fast, to be honest. Dugtrio, Sceptile, Swellow, a reasonably fast Scarfer like Venusaur, if you're playing Rain, any of the Rain sweepers. A Raikou of your own can also slow down an opposing Raikou's rampage. A defensive pivot that like Registeel can also stop Raikou somewhat. Yes, Raikou does not have a proper counter on offensive teams, but if you're playing an offensive team while trying to counter every threat, you should just give up and play stall.
There we go. You hate Raikou because it's a bitch to you, while the rest of metagame can adapt to it (But seriously, offense can deal with Raikou, maybe it might have a bit of trouble, but overall, it's fine). If a Pokemon limits a playstyle, so be it. Let's ban Blissey because of her ability to wall special attackers. Let's ban Tyranitar and Scizor because Psychics are going to extinction. Let's ban pretty much every Pokemon if you're playing GSC because Stall was so prevalent.
Anyway, on the topic of Kabutops, I simply love him as a sweeper. Screw Rain, I say, he is good enough as he is. To bring myself back to Agility LO Kingler I was talking about yesterday, he can pair with SD Kabutops reasonably well, like a double-Water combo, as such. Kingler's coverage is fine as it is. Water/Normal is great attacking synergy, and he can use X-Scissor to put the hurt of bulky Grass Pokemon (May not kill them, but that's what Kabutops is for, to clean up). It can also be used vice-versa.
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