I believe that's what they have been discussing, are counters not named spiritomb, drapion, or skutank...while the latter Thund has been discussing it being a shaky counter
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NP: UU - Silent Night
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I believe that's what they have been discussing, are counters not named spiritomb, drapion, or skutank...while the latter Thund has been discussing it being a shaky counter
Big point here. You'd either have to 1) Double Switch, 2) U-Turn or 3) Let one of your Pokemon get killed so Alakazam comes in without getting hurt. Compare this to other Suspects we've seen so far, both in UU and OU. Honchkrow had 2 immunities, a few resistances and Insomnia as "free" switches to wreck havoc. Yanmega was SR weak, but had an immunity to switch in with, and Speed boost to stop Scarfers from destroying him. The recently banned Salamence had respectable bulk, immunity to EQ, resistances and Intimidate to switch in and punch holes in an opposing team. All of these Pokemon had at least some immunities or had enough bulk to abuse its resistances. Alakazam is hard-pressed to do this, in my opinion, since he has no immunities and its Defenses mean even resisted attacks like Close Combat is going to be hurting him dearly. Compare Alakazam to Pikachu. Pikachu can pull of a Encore/Sub set just like Kazam and dent quite a lot of things. Its Speed is also usable, at least against stuff like Stall teams. He can come in after say Milotic killed something and threaten it out for a Sub. However, Pikachu is pretty much dying to everything. Alakazam isn't, but isn't very far away.
All Drapion are 2HKO'd by Focus Blast, I thought this was known. And CB version are 2HKO'd by Signal Beam, good luck if you come in on Sub.
And yes, it takes a good amount of prediction to switch Zam in, but the problem is is that once he's in at least one Pokemon is going down, if not more. Kinda like Specs Yanmega, just needed one switch in to cause a shitload of damage and blow holes in teams (Zam probably has it better off, what with the no 50% off each switch in part).
And yes, it takes a good amount of prediction to switch Zam in, but the problem is is that once he's in at least one Pokemon is going down, if not more. Kinda like Specs Yanmega, just needed one switch in to cause a shitload of damage and blow holes in teams (Zam probably has it better off, what with the no 50% off each switch in part).
Well, isn't that pretty much the definition of a glass cannon? Whenever CB Rhyperior comes in, something is usually dying. Same thing if something like Absol manages to get a sub up. I'm just not buying it. Alakazam isn't the only one who can muscle through their counters.
so you think venusaur is like clefable? first of all, lo clefable is mever or rarely used. i havent seen one in months. venusaur has three or four sets that are about equally popular; defensive, mix, sd, and special. call me when clefable gets 80 speed and 100 satk. and leave a message about clefable being able to cripple all of its counters.
clefable, 80% of the time, is some sort of support pokemon. while the same can be said of venusaur and offense, having a lot of offensive options is way more threatening. i understand that venusaur cant have twenty moves, but there is a fairly equal chance it will carry any combination of them. so you bring in registeel on a predicted sludge bomb only to have saur boost in your face, sleep, sd again and ohko. with rocks down, weezing is shaky. max max calm takes 40 from leaf storm, so you can leaf storm, sleep, switch, and ko with sludge bomb + rocks +leaf storm next time. you never know what it will do.
clefable, 80% of the time, is some sort of support pokemon. while the same can be said of venusaur and offense, having a lot of offensive options is way more threatening. i understand that venusaur cant have twenty moves, but there is a fairly equal chance it will carry any combination of them. so you bring in registeel on a predicted sludge bomb only to have saur boost in your face, sleep, sd again and ohko. with rocks down, weezing is shaky. max max calm takes 40 from leaf storm, so you can leaf storm, sleep, switch, and ko with sludge bomb + rocks +leaf storm next time. you never know what it will do.
Rhyperior has a lack of speed that alakazam has...no way am i saying that alakazam is bettter than rhyperior, but both play completely differently though
So glass cannon = can never be a suspect?
CB Rhyperior is a bad example, mainly because it's much more susceptible to prediction. Earthquake immunities are extremely common, and giving something like Mismagius or Rotom a free Sub isn't fun. And Jak3 here makes a good point, Alakazam has the Speed advantage (over 90% of the tier, no less). If Milotic switches into Rhyperior, it's instantly threatened to be KO'd, Alakazam can just outspeed and KO whatever is sent out against it. Rhyperior has a lot of common weaknesses. Also, Pokemon don't need priority to threaten Rhyperior, while a Pokemon would need priority to threaten Alakazam. Some people even stated that Rhyperior could possibly be a suspect so comparing it to Alakazam isn't exactly helping.
Also SubAbsol, really? Absol can't abuse Substitute like Zam can, it doesn't have the power. I blame this on a lack of special walls in the tier, while there's an abundance of of physical walls. Also, Absol doesn't have the Speed that Alakazam has. It has Sucker Punch, sure, but opponents are going to switch in a faster Pokemon on Absol either because they have priority themselves or to abuse the fact that Absol users love spamming Sucker Punch and getting a free turn.
It's true that Alakazam isn't the only Pokemon that can muscle through its counters, but it's the only Pokemon that can do it consistently and far too easily.
"Difficult to switch in but causes havoc when safely in" reminds me most of Moltres. 50% damage from Stealth Rock, but then again Moltres has more bulk and has an immunity as well. Alakazam has almost nothing; for example Jolly Life Orb Hitmonlee does 89.6% - 105.6% with a resisted Close Combat to min/min Alakazam, a guaranteed OHKO with Rocks. If you have to lose a Pokemon to get Alakazam in safely then it goes a long way to arguing that Alakazam isn't BL ...
There are a few more ways to get Alakazam in though that shrang didn't mention, e.g. against predicted Sucker Punches, status (although switching into Burn or Toxic has its dangers) and set-up moves (if Alakazam has Encore, since Alakazam is blazing fast). Nonetheless, the nomination's very well written if nothing else.
As for other nominations, I can't believe in Aggron being BL (it got nominated a few rounds ago, and the nominations got laughed at ... what changed?). Leafeon BL? That's really strange as well considering it was NU a few rounds back too. Damp Rock BL? I've come to decide that it isn't. Rain is most vulnerable when the first bout ends, and it's certainly possible to exploit this weakness. Venusaur BL? That's more plausible. Venusaur can be offensive, defensive, attack from physical side, attack from special side, attack from both sides, boost its stats and sleep. Clefable can't do that. Clefable is also relatively slow, and although its defensive options are far more varied than Venusaur's, using defensive attacks gives your opponents time to react while offensive attacks pose an immediate threat. Also safely switching into Venusaur is hard, although I guess there's a reason why Lum Berry exists. Too bad you can only use Lum Berry once.
If the suspects are as those nominated right now I'd vote:
Aggron: UU
Leafeon: UU
Damp Rock: UU
Alakazam: undecided, but leaning UU
Venusaur: ?
I'm not sure which way I'd go on Venusaur. However, I hate it so much I've started using LO Milotic to lure it out and KO it before I have to deal with it. If a pre-emptive strike is the best way to stop something, things have got bad.
Alakazam might be difficult to deal with without a sacrifice, but it's also very hard to get in without sacrificing. For that reason, I don't think it's broken.
I'm testing Leafeon and it's really good. If only it had stronger priority...
Alakazam might be difficult to deal with without a sacrifice, but it's also very hard to get in without sacrificing. For that reason, I don't think it's broken.
I'm testing Leafeon and it's really good. If only it had stronger priority...
I've never seen Venusaur SD off the bat. First thing it does when it comes out is either Sleep Powder, Power Whip, or Sludge Bomb. Scouting is usually a better idea when the entire tier has adapted to kill you.
Let's be realistic here: Venusuar is really not that powerful and can't pull off a sweep of any kind. The best it can hope for is Support, which is mostly for Sleep Powder and having decent enough stats to be something of a threat afterward. Even still, I think it'd need a little more speed and power (a la Roserade) before it becomes a serious candidate for BL.
Let's be realistic here: Venusuar is really not that powerful and can't pull off a sweep of any kind. The best it can hope for is Support, which is mostly for Sleep Powder and having decent enough stats to be something of a threat afterward. Even still, I think it'd need a little more speed and power (a la Roserade) before it becomes a serious candidate for BL.
Venusaur is versatile as hell, but as I said before, every one of its sets is entirely counterable. Hell, if it didn't have Sleep Powder, it'll probably won't even be in the top 10 right now. The Support Characteristic is probably the only thing he can fit, and even then, is Sleep Powder + versatility really enough to "consistently create a condition in which another Pokemon can sweep"?? Like I said before, Breloom can do pretty much the same thing as Venusaur in OU, even without the multitude of attacks and sets. However, Breloom is anything but Suspect worthy at the moment.
weezing comes in on venusaur, eats leaf storm, gets slept. later weezing eats sludge bomb. hitmonlee can now sweep.
registeel absorbs leaf storm, gets slept. later on mismagius comes in, nasty plots, and can 2hko without getting paralyzed or taking damage.
chansey comes in to take a sleep powder or leaf storm, but instead takes a power whip. manectric now sweeps.
opponent gets gutsy and has nothing to sweep, brings in milotic on n obvious sleep powder. venusauf leaf storms. houndoom sweeps.
you cannot know what venusaur will do without knowledge of the set. even if you do know it, it has two great attacking options and sleep, or boosting moves and good coverage and stab moves. you cant say that venusaur is predictable.
registeel absorbs leaf storm, gets slept. later on mismagius comes in, nasty plots, and can 2hko without getting paralyzed or taking damage.
chansey comes in to take a sleep powder or leaf storm, but instead takes a power whip. manectric now sweeps.
opponent gets gutsy and has nothing to sweep, brings in milotic on n obvious sleep powder. venusauf leaf storms. houndoom sweeps.
you cannot know what venusaur will do without knowledge of the set. even if you do know it, it has two great attacking options and sleep, or boosting moves and good coverage and stab moves. you cant say that venusaur is predictable.
Can people quit the Breloom Venusaur comparisions pretty please? Breloom hits like a fucking truck but can't take half a shit of a hit with its pathetic defenses and HP; while Venusaur can (he's also faster but I won't go into that). Venusaur can go Mixed, Breloom can't. Venusaur has use for Synthesis, Breloom doesn't. They are different mons, stop comparing them if they don't even play the same way (the fact Breloom dies if it switches into Ice Beam sets them apart even more).
There's also the fact that OU can handle Breloom but that's irrelevant to whether UU could handle either of them. (Man, deja vu...)
Is that a bad thing?
Venusaur's versatility poses two problems. One is unpredictability, and the other is the fact you have to over-prepare for all its sets.
Unpredictability has been covered: it means that you either have to play around it well (this tactic is severely hindered by Stealth Rock) or carry something that can check all its possible sets (Weezing, for instance).
The other factor is that you have to be able to have an answer to all the following: Sleep Powder, the Swords Dance set, and the special (Life Orb) set - and to a lesser extent, the mixed set.
Weezing is not enough. I've brought this up in the thread before. While many UU players, myself included, enjoy using it to absorb sleep and tank Venusaur's hits, you cannot rely on it as the sole check. I've never only carried just it to check the special set, so this actually hasn't played out for me in practice, but I can theorize what would happen: Venusaur sleeps Weezing and wears it down on the switch-in with Leaf Storm(s), eventually killing it. Weezing is also relegated to being completely set-up bait during that time.
I have much more experience with attempting to check the Swords Dance set with only Weezing - it works sometimes, but other times, it fails miserably. There are so many things that can go wrong with this: Sleep Talk fails to pick WOW (and it sometimes sends Venusaur into Overgrow range with Sludge Bomb), WOW misses, or you wake up early and Venusaur gets to Sleep Powder again. A +2 Power Whip 2HKOes Weezing. That's not going into the possibility of Venusaur Swords Dancing on the switch. Yes, this does happen, especially after a smart opponent has scouted your team sufficiently.
Basically, you can't really rely on Weezing (or any other Pokemon for that matter; Weezing was just the main example) as your sole check to Venusaur. That's like having Milotic as your only answer to Houndoom (this means you're weak to Passho Houndoom). You have to have a secondary answers to both special and physical variants. Note that outside of Weezing, most if not all Pokemon that can check/counter all variants of Venusaur are weak to Stealth Rock. I guess it's a bit subjective, but I believe you have to overprepare to sufficiently check all variants of Venusaur.
Unpredictability has been covered: it means that you either have to play around it well (this tactic is severely hindered by Stealth Rock) or carry something that can check all its possible sets (Weezing, for instance).
The other factor is that you have to be able to have an answer to all the following: Sleep Powder, the Swords Dance set, and the special (Life Orb) set - and to a lesser extent, the mixed set.
Weezing is not enough. I've brought this up in the thread before. While many UU players, myself included, enjoy using it to absorb sleep and tank Venusaur's hits, you cannot rely on it as the sole check. I've never only carried just it to check the special set, so this actually hasn't played out for me in practice, but I can theorize what would happen: Venusaur sleeps Weezing and wears it down on the switch-in with Leaf Storm(s), eventually killing it. Weezing is also relegated to being completely set-up bait during that time.
I have much more experience with attempting to check the Swords Dance set with only Weezing - it works sometimes, but other times, it fails miserably. There are so many things that can go wrong with this: Sleep Talk fails to pick WOW (and it sometimes sends Venusaur into Overgrow range with Sludge Bomb), WOW misses, or you wake up early and Venusaur gets to Sleep Powder again. A +2 Power Whip 2HKOes Weezing. That's not going into the possibility of Venusaur Swords Dancing on the switch. Yes, this does happen, especially after a smart opponent has scouted your team sufficiently.
Basically, you can't really rely on Weezing (or any other Pokemon for that matter; Weezing was just the main example) as your sole check to Venusaur. That's like having Milotic as your only answer to Houndoom (this means you're weak to Passho Houndoom). You have to have a secondary answers to both special and physical variants. Note that outside of Weezing, most if not all Pokemon that can check/counter all variants of Venusaur are weak to Stealth Rock. I guess it's a bit subjective, but I believe you have to overprepare to sufficiently check all variants of Venusaur.
It surprises me that no one else has brought it up, but Muk (well actually pretty much any bulky Poison-type) has no trouble with most of Venusaur's common sets (LO Special, Mixed, and Defensive). I know it doesn't get WoW or high defense, but it trades that for much better Special Defense to tank its hits all day, and unlike Weezing can pose a threat offensively with Curse.
Timid LO Venusaur Leaf Storm vs. 252/176+ Muk = 22.9% - 27.1%
Timid LO Sludge Bomb vs. 252/176+ Muk = 14.7% - 17.4%
Mixed LO Venusaur Power Whip vs. 252/80(non-Curse) Muk = 23.4% - 27.8%
Muk has a much easier time handling all Venusaur sets besides the SD variant, which with a bit of luck can defeat Weezing anyway. Also, if people use the "BUT MUK CAN'T DO ANYTHING BESIDES COUNTER SAUR," it can. With Payback Muk makes a great counter to Mismagius, easily taking a +2 Shadow Ball and OHKOing with Payback. Fuck, it can even survive a Psychic from Zam if ev'd correctly. O_O
It can also set up Curse on pretty much any bulky Pokemon in the tier (especially the first 2 Venu/Milo, which says something), and it can't be tricked so it's good to set up on Rotom and all these other Pokemon out there. I should use Muk more. O_o
Timid LO Venusaur Leaf Storm vs. 252/176+ Muk = 22.9% - 27.1%
Timid LO Sludge Bomb vs. 252/176+ Muk = 14.7% - 17.4%
Mixed LO Venusaur Power Whip vs. 252/80(non-Curse) Muk = 23.4% - 27.8%
Muk has a much easier time handling all Venusaur sets besides the SD variant, which with a bit of luck can defeat Weezing anyway. Also, if people use the "BUT MUK CAN'T DO ANYTHING BESIDES COUNTER SAUR," it can. With Payback Muk makes a great counter to Mismagius, easily taking a +2 Shadow Ball and OHKOing with Payback. Fuck, it can even survive a Psychic from Zam if ev'd correctly. O_O
It can also set up Curse on pretty much any bulky Pokemon in the tier (especially the first 2 Venu/Milo, which says something), and it can't be tricked so it's good to set up on Rotom and all these other Pokemon out there. I should use Muk more. O_o
muks basically a better counter to special sets, but worse counter to physical as it can't wisp and is vulnerable to the very common earthquake on sd sets. its a great counter to special sets but against sd sets, you will still need something else to absorb sleep and then another thing to beat it incase of sd earthquake or return.
To me, this isn't so much of a problem. MOST teams I'd say have at least two of: Registeel, Chansey, Scyther, Moltres, Swellow, Weezing, Arcanine, Venusaur , Alakazam etc. The biggest problem is having something get slept, but once sleep clause is activated and you have decent prediction, it's easy to handle.
Related: So today a Noctowl switched into my Venusaur and I was like, huh, I can't do anything to this thing.
In before we go back to the whole Hypno/Noctowl/Wormadam as a Venusaur counter discussion.
On a more serious note, what Eo said applies to many pokémons. Blaziken isn't solely checked by one mon because Milotic loses to SD Ken, Slowking loses to those with Thunderpunch and Slowbro loses to mixed Ken (of course, I'm assuming these mons are switching into it as they are supposed to). That, however, never made people call it broken.
On a more serious note, what Eo said applies to many pokémons. Blaziken isn't solely checked by one mon because Milotic loses to SD Ken, Slowking loses to those with Thunderpunch and Slowbro loses to mixed Ken (of course, I'm assuming these mons are switching into it as they are supposed to). That, however, never made people call it broken.
I didn't say it counters the SD set, but that's the only Venusaur set it can't handle anyway, which makes Muk one of its best counters.
Really I've never had all that much trouble with Venusaur - it is a versatile poke with good typing, decent bulk, decent speed, and good SpA with an accurate Sleep move. I think people are forgetting the times of early DP, when Hypnosis had 70% accuracy and things like Gengar, Bronzong, Milotic and Yanmega were throwing it around willy nilly. Running a sleep absorber, something like CroCune or CurseLax, in that metagame had a big payout, far more so than in the current OU metagame. Similarly, Sleep is very prevalent in the current UU, so running things that can take the status from Venusaur/Jynx/Jumpluff etc is very beneficial. Things like CurseSteel are blown off for being too hard to sweep with, but half their utility comes in the form of being able to comfortably switch into these sleep pokemon and then switch out again to something that can deal with this now 3 attack grass type, while still being able to function decently later on in the game. Similarly, Weezing is a great Pokemon to take sleep from Venusaur, but people need to stop using it as a 1-poke check to it. It simply isn't reliable enough to try take on any Pokemon with a sleeping one of yours.
"But it's overcentralizing to be forced to carry 2 checks for Venusaur". No, almost every effective Sleep user requires checking with more than one pokemon. Back in Gengar's DP primetime, there was next to nothing that could class as a "one-poke check". Gengar boasted similar versatility with Explosion, Focus Punch, Will-o-Wisp, etc, could switch in a similar number of times as Venusaur against the standard team because of its excellent immunities, and had higher SpA, Spe, and perfect coverage with two 120 bp moves to boot. I'm not an Ubers player at all, but I think I'm right in saying that Darkrai requires checking in a very similar way. DP Gengar is a much better OU comparison to Venusaur than Breloom, but still I don't remember any reputable battler claiming it to be broken back then. I know Gengar has Pursuit weakness and isn't nearly as bulky blah blah please don't start that because I think despite these points this analogy can stand.
As for me, I've been using a very special Articuno set to deal with Venusaur, and it's been working wonders for me :).
"But it's overcentralizing to be forced to carry 2 checks for Venusaur". No, almost every effective Sleep user requires checking with more than one pokemon. Back in Gengar's DP primetime, there was next to nothing that could class as a "one-poke check". Gengar boasted similar versatility with Explosion, Focus Punch, Will-o-Wisp, etc, could switch in a similar number of times as Venusaur against the standard team because of its excellent immunities, and had higher SpA, Spe, and perfect coverage with two 120 bp moves to boot. I'm not an Ubers player at all, but I think I'm right in saying that Darkrai requires checking in a very similar way. DP Gengar is a much better OU comparison to Venusaur than Breloom, but still I don't remember any reputable battler claiming it to be broken back then. I know Gengar has Pursuit weakness and isn't nearly as bulky blah blah please don't start that because I think despite these points this analogy can stand.
As for me, I've been using a very special Articuno set to deal with Venusaur, and it's been working wonders for me :).
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