np: UU Suspect Test Round 2 - Cold As Ice

[Mishra]

Problem is after your first v create you get ohkod by something right away. Also the stallbreaker set is much better vs most teams.

You obviously wouldn't stay in on a poke that can easily revenge it, but what is the stallbreaker set, exactly? Smgon's page only describes strictly physical and special sweepers, a support set, and a scarf set...

That and I find it amusing that the stuff it mentions on its page is all OU pokes (lati twins, hippowdon, lols).

 

[Jubilee]

Problem is after your first v create you get ohkod by something right away. Also the stallbreaker set is much better vs most teams.

As Mishra said you obviously wouldn't stay in on something that can KO you. Unless it's something like Dugtrio or Weavile and Houndoom with Pursuit, which you actually survive Pursuit from both if you stay in even at -1 Defense, but this really only matters against Weavile because if trapped on V-Create Victini has to switch against Houndoom.

And even at -1 Victini is still fast, with Jolly and a Choice Scarf it has 328 Speed (outspeeding the majority of the tier) and with Adamant Choice Scarf it has 299 Speed (still mostly outspeeding the majority of the tier)

It isn't exactly frail either even at -1, being able to survive most neutral attacks.

@Mishra, yeah Victini is a beast. Being able to 2HKO the most defensive Pokemon in the tier is incredible.

 

[Blue_Tornado]

Yes, CB Victini is extremely good. I just hope none of you are even thinking of nomming it as a result though as that would be completely stupid, seeing as plenty of very common tanks (Slowbro, Rhyperior, Arcanine) stop it cold.

Still I've been basing a lot of teams around CB Victini and getting double switches in with it is fun as hell.

 

[Mishra]

Yes, CB Victini is extremely good. I just hope none of you are even thinking of nomming it as a result though as that would be completely stupid, seeing as plenty of very common tanks (Slowbro, Rhyperior, Arcanine) stop it cold.

Still I've been basing a lot of teams around CB Victini and getting double switches in with it is fun as hell.

I am not as banhappy in UU as I was about OU (I refuse to play that crappy weather war tier). The only threat I see right now is chansey, and then I want to see how pokes like Raikou and Azelf do without the almighty special wall around. I haven't fought enough hail to make any statements about froslass (higher speed then garchomp, but bad defense).

The downsides of the band vs the scarf is that without a scarf, is that it doesn't outspeed those awesome 110+ speed threats, while going scarf means donphan is 3HKOed, and gligar can roost stall you out of v-creates.

Rhyperior also has to fear a mixed set and banded or not, slowbro is not going to like taking repeated fusion bolts...

 

[Blue_Tornado]

CB Victini and Scarf Victini serve completely different purposes. Also, Rhyperior and Slowbro are a concrete stops for those sets even with Fusion Bolt against the latter - you take like 45% and switch out to recover most of it.

Mixed Victini works against those checks but that's all it does. CB Victini is a wallbreaker and Scarf Victini is a revenge killer, while Mixed Victini accomplishes neither. (which is why it's not used very often)

 

[Mishra]

CB Victini and Scarf Victini serve completely different purposes. Also, Rhyperior and Slowbro are a concrete stops for those sets even with Fusion Bolt against the latter - you take like 45% and switch out to recover most of it.

252 Atk Choice Band Victini Fusion Bolt vs 252 HP/252 Def Slowbro:

46.7% - 55.33%, a clean 2HKO with rocks up.

Mixed Victini works against those checks but that's all it does. CB Victini is a wallbreaker and Scarf Victini is a revenge killer, while Mixed Victini accomplishes neither. (which is why it's not used very often)

I was just agreeing with you, not trying to say the 2 sets are similiar. My point was that since Victini can't do both, scarf losing the 2hko on every wall I listed, while band loses the speed bonus, victini isn't ridiculously broken. My point with rhyperior is that like mew, victini is much harder to counter until you know its set.

 

[Banedon]

The idea is to switch Slowbro in, eat the Fusion Bolt, deduce that Victini is Banded into an Electric attack and then switch out to Electric resist (or ground type). With Regenerator, Slowbro is still relatively unharmed. Victini is strong, but it does have to switch out often and is vulnerable to Stealth Rock. With the speed drops from V-Create, even otherwise slow Pokemon can outspeed Victini. Worst case scenario, revenging isn't difficult after the speed drop.

Also Azelf already ploughs through Chansey, although Raikou is handily walled. Kinda sucks that you have to get to +4 SpA without Life Orb to 2HKO Chansey with Aura Sphere.

 

[Forte.EXE]

Tickle Wynaut + Dugtrio removes Scarfers and slow walls with Tickle + Earthquake, and Wynaut isn't horribly weak defensively with Eviolite.

Use Wynaut, Tickle, switch to Dugtrio, Earthquake for the KO on Chansey. Now Raikou sweeps pretty much unimpeded.

I also really liked Sand in UU. Not too many people know how to deal with Sand Offense in UU, and with Abomasnow being the only other Pokemon with a weather changing ability, Hippopotas can easily set up Sand. An Eviolite makes it bulky as all fuck with over 400 in Def and a moderate 300 in HP.

 

[Raikaria]

Yes, a team of Seviper, Dragonair, Pupitar, Arbok, Scraggy, and Karrablast would be nearly unstoppable. I can see such a team topping the ladder in mere hours, reshaping the metagame as we know it.

Rhyperior OHKO's or 2HKO's all of them, and the worst they can do back is an UNSTABed Surf from Dragonair.

That's off the top of my head.

I seriously hope that post was sarcasm. Shed Skin is in no way broken. Although ShedRest Scrafty, if it ever fell into UU, might be another question.

On the topic of Blizzspam, it itself is good, but not broken. It may seem broken right now, but that, in my opinion, is only because of Froslass, who has several suspect sets, and isn't helped by Snow Cloak, or removing the Fighting weakness Blizzspam suffers.

Thunder Wave and Sub sets are a pain, and so is Spikes, and D-Bond... hell, Froslass could even be a complete troll with it's speed, Snow Cloak, and Confuse Ray, to net easy Spikes, and shuffle teams.

I can see it now:

Froslass @ Leftovers
Snow Cloak
Timid Nature
252 Sp.Atk/252 Speed/4 Filler

Confuse Ray
Substitute
Spikes
Blizzard

Ragequits everywhere. It's basically UU Jirachi. If not worse, due to the Sub.

 

[Stratos]

yes, it was sarcasm. You should have known at the very least when he said karrablast.

 

[Godsend]

I've had great success with specs Kingrda recently. Modest specs reaches 475 sp. Attack, so it's easy to just switch in, use Draco Meteor and watch something faint. Everyone expects Kingdra to be some sort of physical set, so Draco Meteors to the face are never seen coming the first time around.

 

[shrang]

Rhyperior OHKO's or 2HKO's all of them, and the worst they can do back is an UNSTABed Surf from Dragonair.

That's off the top of my head.

I seriously hope that post was sarcasm. Shed Skin is in no way broken. Although ShedRest Scrafty, if it ever fell into UU, might be another question.

On the topic of Blizzspam, it itself is good, but not broken. It may seem broken right now, but that, in my opinion, is only because of Froslass, who has several suspect sets, and isn't helped by Snow Cloak, or removing the Fighting weakness Blizzspam suffers.

Thunder Wave and Sub sets are a pain, and so is Spikes, and D-Bond... hell, Froslass could even be a complete troll with it's speed, Snow Cloak, and Confuse Ray, to net easy Spikes, and shuffle teams.

I can see it now:

Froslass @ Leftovers
Snow Cloak
Timid Nature
252 Sp.Atk/252 Speed/4 Filler

Confuse Ray
Substitute
Spikes
Blizzard

Ragequits everywhere. It's basically UU Jirachi. If not worse, due to the Sub.

Try:
Froslass @ Leftovers / Life Orb
Ability: Snow Cloak
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid
-Substitute
-Pain Split
-Blizzard
-Shadow Ball / Taunt / Spikes

Finally got Froslass down to <25% HP and happy that she can't Sub any more? Well too bad she just Pain Splitted her health back. Watch the ragequit.

 

[Rakan]

CB Victini sucks. Adamant Scarf Victini is the way to go as it still outspeeds Jolly Scarf Heracross, and does more damage than Jolly Scarf variants. Also, Technitop sucks. In this metagame, with shit like Victini and Heracross running rampant, Intimidate is the way to go. On that note, Qwilfish is an excellent check to Victini and Heracross, as with access to Intimidate and resistances to Fighting-, Bug-, and Fire-type moves, it can easily sponge many of the hits aimed at hail teams (which is why I use it on my hail team). In fact, a dual Intimidate core of Hitmontop and Qwilfish has worked amazingly well for me. Not that it matters, but I'm in the top 15 on the ladder (under alt: PingPing). Hail isn't necessarily broken, just very effective in the UU metagame, at least until Froslass and Mamo are banned...

 

[Bartman101]

OMG, De Ja vu here, Heracross is just like when it got dropped to UU in gen 4. No matter what set it is running, it is almost guaranteed to get a minimum of 1 kill per game. The combination of Close Combat and Megahorn destroys defensive cores like Chansey+Cresselia/Mew/Dexoys-D+Registeel, while Stone Edge rips through Zapdos and other fliers such as Crobat. Plus, it has very few true counters. Gligar, Nidoking, Nidoqueen, Hitmontop, Weezing, Cofagrius and perhaps Dusclops are the only ones who can, stop (in some cases only stall) Heracross' rampage. Plus, Heracross is excellent at doing anything, it can extremely effectively revenge kill with a Choice Scarf, it hits extremely hard right of the bat, even with resisted hits with a Choice Band, it can have the freedom of changing between 3/4 attacks with Toxic/Burn Orb or Leftovers (Or Expert Belt to trick Choice Item) that can tear apart slow defensive teams. It can boost it's already mammoth attack with Bulk Up or Swords Dance when Scarfers and faster Pokemon have been got rid of. Simultaneously, Heracross also pseudo-absorbs any status with his brilliant guts ability, which powers him up even more. True, he can be revenged killed by lots and lots of things, but I believe he has very few true counters (similarly to Mence's banning to Ubers in Gen 4), so in my opinion he is too good for UU, so should be booted to BL.

Thank You and Goodnight.

 

[breh]

use golurk. heracross gets one kill per game? more like it gives you a free sub per game. frankly, I don't care about night slash, since I have seen it only used maybe once.

 

[Scoopapa]

Unfortunately CS Megahorn is a 3HKO, while Golurk can't OHKO back. It's a decent check, especially if you have a priority user who needs a weakened Heracross, but it's not a counter. Night Slash is easy to wall though, so rejoice if your opponent uses his Hera switch-in for that.

Speaking of Golurk, I've been running something resembling a hyper-offense sand team which includes him, and it's been pretty damn successful. Currently I have a couple of alts in the top 10 from it. I made a RMT of it and I'm hoping some of you who are good teambuilders could help me fine tune it. I think it and teams like it could be a potent force in the metagame. The good news is it's not hail, but the bad news is it's still more weather : D.

 

[Mew]

I really can't wait for round 3. I now have a team that handles pretty much any threat, only Snow Cloak Froslass and Mamoswine can get through with their broken Snow Cloak ability...

If I get voting reqs this round, I'm voting for Snow Cloak, as Mamoswine and Froslass wouldn't be broken without it.

 

[sax king]

I still run Weezing to handle the Heracrosses.

Meanwhile, everyone remember how devastating rain was last gen? How come no one runs rain anymore? Important counters like Toxicroak and Venusaur are gone, and Victini/Arcanine/Rhyperior are instantly killed.

 

[Jaetheho]

and kingdra is UU! More rain abusers.
but i dont see it becoming big with blizzspams everywhere.

 

[Forsety]

Meanwhile, everyone remember how devastating rain was last gen? How come no one runs rain anymore? Important counters like Toxicroak and Venusaur are gone, and Victini/Arcanine/Rhyperior are instantly killed.

Abomasnow was BL last gen thats why and it is a Rain counter in itself disregarding its ability. With it and Hail running around his simple prescence already screws up any attempt at a Rain sweep.

 

[Banedon]

I think rain deserves more popularity than it has right now, which appears to be exactly zero. I haven't met a single rain team. Abomasnow and Hippopostas may have some influence, but so what: Hippopostas is outright stomped by Water moves, as are many Sand Pokemon. Kabutops and Omastar aren't affected by Sandstorm either. As for Abomasnow, it can't really switch into rain teams as well. Sure it resists Water, but it is quite slow so Pokemon like Kabutops will outspeed and kill it with Stone Edge. It can come in after a KO, but it will have to switch out immediately after and it's weak to Stealth Rock, so ...

With Kingdra in the tier as well, I think rain definitely deserves more popularity.

 

[Mishra]

I think rain deserves more popularity than it has right now, which appears to be exactly zero. I haven't met a single rain team. Abomasnow and Hippopostas may have some influence, but so what: Hippopostas is outright stomped by Water moves, as are many Sand Pokemon. Kabutops and Omastar aren't affected by Sandstorm either. As for Abomasnow, it can't really switch into rain teams as well. Sure it resists Water, but it is quite slow so Pokemon like Kabutops will outspeed and kill it with Stone Edge.

Scarf abomasnow says hi? Leech seed/sub is not the only set abomasnow can run so when you stay in trying to OHKO it, I energyball and your down a sweeper. Hippotas has little influence your right, but it doesn't need to when hail spam not only doesn't have to waste a few moveslots, but I like the abusers a bit more...

It can come in after a KO, but it will have to switch out immediately after and it's weak to Stealth Rock, so ...

Which any hail team with any brains will be running hitmontop or donphan, when at least 2 of the best hail abusers are SR weak.

With Kingdra in the tier as well, I think rain definitely deserves more popularity.

Possibly, your right, but when there is a decent auto weather out there (I am not sure how popular hippowdon was last gen UU), it is not the best idea to run a weather team that relies on a move to activate, especially because out of the rain, pokes like omastar and kabutops aren't that hot. Its rough losing a turn by rain dancing only to have it taken away by a single switch.

 

[Heysup]

Also, keep in mind that our Gen 4 Rain abusers like Gorebyss, Omastar and etc no longer 2HKO Chansey with Stealth Rock because of Eviolite. Chansey is everywhere, so your only consistent threats are physical ones.

 

[Forsety]

especially because out of the rain, pokes like omastar and kabutops aren't that hot.

That is just a plain untruth, Omastar is still pretty devastating out of rain ever since it got Shell Smash. I can assure you I've seen it used to devastating effect in Sand and even non-weather teams.

Also, keep in mind that our Gen 4 Rain abusers like Gorebyss, Omastar and etc no longer 2HKO Chansey with Stealth Rock because of Eviolite. Chansey is everywhere, so your only consistent threats are physical ones.

However this is a more legit secondary reason, not only do we have a reliable weather setup able to cock block a rain setup. We also have the fat bastard known as Chansey able to come in on both physical and special sweepers and cripple their sweep with a simple paralysis or Toxic.

 

[Scoopapa]

Omastar with HP Rock can pretty much romp an entire hail team. Even Slowbro is always OHKOed after Stealth Rock.

Setting it up won't be easy, so it's not exactly a reliable work around, but it's there. I suppose if 2/3 of your team can kill Abomasnow you'd have a decent chance. Stuff like Qwilfish, Kabutops, the aforementioned Omastar, and one or two of your rain setters (too bad you won't be using Fire moves).

As for Chansey at +2 the same Omastar can even 2HKO the fat blob in the rain with Hydro Pump (enough damage that recover stall won't save her more than one extra turn). Of course this means Gorebyss can do the same. Again, Shell Smash isn't the easiest thing to pull off, though if Chansey switches into it you're golden. It's still more of a pest than it was since you have to set up to beat it.

So there are workarounds to these problems. The question is whether you can pull it off reliably in-game. Placing all of your hopes on Shell Smash is risky at best.

Another thing to take into account is that there is a whole slew of new Electric and Grass-types, in addition to new bulky waters, whereas rain has only gained Kingdra and boosting moves for Omastar and Gorebyss.