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np: UU Suspect Test Round 2 - Cold As Ice

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Heracross does not need to run Scarf, although Scarf is its most common set. Crobat is certainly viable, although it's not near the top of the usage charts it's a fine Pokemon. Linoone is dead in UU at least until the release of Salac Berry. Team preview also severely hurts what is otherwise a surprise strategy. Maybe in RU it would have a chance.

About Hydration Lapras, I haven't tried it but I'm skeptical because it has a lot of easily exploited weaknesses. You have to put up rain, and then you have to set up Curse or Dragon Dance or whatever. Requiring two turns of setup is not good. Lapras is also part-Ice and therefore inherits all the weaknesses that come with it, including important weaknesses to SR and Close Combat.
 
Choice Band Heracross is the best Heracross set in my opinion. Nothing can switch in safely barring bulky Ghost-types who can actually deal some sort of damage back, and it has the ability to switch into status and better yet the defenses to switch into attacks like Scald. If Heracross gets statused at all, which is very common, something is going to die every time they switch in. Barely anything can take a +2 Megahorn.

The Orb sets forsake Heracross' strength from status and bulk, which I disagree with.

The Scarf set is also great, it's just that in a metagame that's slow and bulky I'd rather use something that's stronger and slightly faster rather than something that has average attacking strength but is much faster.

EDIT: Yes of course I love the Restalk LO set too. I usually do need the Pursuit however, that's why I prefer CB.
 
the resttalk lo hera set is still an amazing mid-game wallbreaker. cores like chans + slowbro / deo-d, milosteel, or a combination of the two are completely destroyed by the power it wields and it has the bulk to continually rest up, fire off guts boosted attacks, and repeat. the only issue it has is that it struggles with pure offensive teams, but a lot of players are leaning towards bulky offense atm so i've still had a great deal of success.
 
I think scarfcross is probably the most painstaking pokemon in the current meta, it revenge kills nearly everything that can set up, hugely annoying. It might jave to do wuth the fact that the onpy poison type I ever use is roserade...
 
Still, you have to deal with dusclops and gligar that will laugh hard at everything you do, the san part is dusclops will have a hard time dealing damage to a bulky set thanks to doing 100 damage every turn, gligar at least can set up rocks and acrobatics will pretty much stop anything hera wanted to do, I still hate him, that bug is ugly
 
fatty said:
the resttalk lo hera set is still an amazing mid-game wallbreaker. cores like chans + slowbro / deo-d, milosteel, or a combination of the two are completely destroyed by the power it wields and it has the bulk to continually rest up, fire off guts boosted attacks, and repeat. the only issue it has is that it struggles with pure offensive teams, but a lot of players are leaning towards bulky offense atm so i've still had a great deal of success.
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Guts doesn't activate with Sleep this generation, unfortunately...
 
casey90 said:
I think scarfcross is probably the most painstaking pokemon in the current meta, it revenge kills nearly everything that can set up, hugely annoying. It might jave to do wuth the fact that the onpy poison type I ever use is roserade...
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I think victini can handel it very well
 
What changed regarding Sleep is that Choice items now work with Sleep Talk even after the first use, unlike what would happen in Gen IV and just like it was in ADV.
 
Lets just assume that guts IS boosted with sleep (I believe it is)

LO heracross still isn't that good. One: Rest/Sleep talk make you lose an insane amount of coverage. Two: LO takes away an element of surprise. Even choice band can still seem like a scarf if you treat it like your choiced if your opponent isn't paying attention (switching out of a poke you should still have a move for, but are locked into a move) If your opponent sees a LO, heracross is too easy to beat, as heracross isn't doing band damage AND, its speed reaches a max of 295 (I believe).

In my experience, Heracross is at his scariest when you have to play the guessing game with his move, since he out speeds any of my non-scarfed pokes.
 
Mishra said:
LO heracross still isn't that good. One: Rest/Sleep talk make you lose an insane amount of coverage. Two: LO takes away an element of surprise. Even choice band can still seem like a scarf if you treat it like your choiced if your opponent isn't paying attention (switching out of a poke you should still have a move for, but are locked into a move) If your opponent sees a LO, heracross is too easy to beat, as heracross isn't doing band damage AND, its speed reaches a max of 295 (I believe).

In my experience, Heracross is at his scariest when you have to play the guessing game with his move, since he out speeds any of my non-scarfed pokes.
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Loses an "insane" amount of coverage? It now longer hits these common Pokemon for neutral at least:

Zapdos, Heracross, Froslass, Mismagius. Dusclops and Gligar as well..but they aren't very common.

Zapdos is the only one of the first four that isn't always OHKOed by a LO Guts Megahorn. It still does ~66% minimum, meaning if Zapdos wants to KO Heracross, it's going to die. If it's a defensive Zapdos, it will just be outsped and 2HKOed 2/3s of the time (due to Restalk).

Saying LO takes away the element of surprise because people may not pay attention is frankly even more ridiculous. In the same vein I could say "they won't notice it's LO because they may not pay attention to the -10% Health per attack". Equally ridiculous.

Restalks advantages over CB are that it can beat down some Heracross counters like Dusclops, it has more longevity and more power. However it trades that in for Pursuit and Stone Edge (ie OHKOing Zapdos), and most importantly reliability.

I like Choice Band better but your claims against the Restalk set are illogical and exaggerated.
 
There is Crobat, who 4x resists Heracross's STABs and OHKOes with Brave Bird. Not exactly common though. But saying that Choice Band can be confused for Choice Scarf is stupid. I'm sure everyone knows the power of Choice Band, and will figure out that the damage output is an obvious indicator as to the Choice item Heracross is using.
 
you missed a big one: GOLURK.

not sure how much it takes from megahorn, though. then again, there's only a 28.3% chance of it getting one off so...
 
I said common, Golurk isn't even UU right now, and Crobat is not very common at all either. I guess I could have included the latter, but my points still stand.
 
Oh man, what have I done? I've started a heracross arguement by asking how good it is....... Looks like it might take a while... But has anyone tried a sub punch set? I've used it a couple of times and it's pretty decent in battle. Oh ya, crobat and zapdos are however, weak to stone edge; something that is gonna rip them to shreds.
 
I personally would have been extremely surprised to see a LO Heracross use Rest (before reading about it obviously), and before seeing Rest would probably would have assumed it has the Rock coverage, so I don't think that's really an issue. Obviously you know it isn't a Scarf after seeing an attack, but Choice Band is pretty much the same unless you switch in on an immunity or a 4x resist while having no idea how much it should have done in the first place.

The stats used for the tiering are pretty old at this point, though. If you go on the ladder now I'd be surprised if you didn't see some Golurk, it's been having a big revival lately (mostly as the spin-blocker of choice for sand teams).
 
There is Crobat, who 4x resists Heracross's STABs and OHKOes with Brave Bird. Not exactly common though. But saying that Choice Band can be confused for Choice Scarf is stupid. I'm sure everyone knows the power of Choice Band, and will figure out that the damage output is an obvious indicator as to the Choice item Heracross is using.
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Good points. I actually noticed crobat for that too, and I'm thinking of running a Crobat. He has a very attractive speed stat and a fast taunt. The few times I've encountered someone using a crobat well, they've really injured my team with it.
 
I remember Crobat being all that in Gen 4 UU and was promoted to BL because of being able to provide immense support. With its fast Taunts, nothing can set-up on it, while it U-turns to the appropriate mon. Crobat also stuck around with its decent defense and Roost. Sometimes it sets up Rain Dance holding Damp Stone, which was also a big deal back then.

Obviously, this gen is different from last gen, with more threats and Team Preview, but it seems like Crobat is still holding its weight.
 
Breludicolo said:
you missed a big one: GOLURK.

not sure how much it takes from megahorn, though. then again, there's only a 28.3% chance of it getting one off so...
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Golurk from my experience doesn't beat Heracross, it still takes a surprising amount of damage from resisted moves as the tendency is to invest in just HP + Atk for all roundness. On the other hand however Golurk can set up a Sub on Heracross and that usually results in Hera or the switch in provided its not Zapdos taking massive damage.

The stats used for the tiering are pretty old at this point, though. If you go on the ladder now I'd be surprised if you didn't see some Golurk, it's been having a big revival lately (mostly as the spin-blocker of choice for sand teams).
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Not just UU as a Rapid Spinner but I've had huge success with it on the OU ladder as a wallbreaker as well, nobody ever suspects the phenomenal power Golurk packs. It can freakin 2HKO a +1 Def Conkeldurr and no Skarm ever suspects it can 2-3HKO it and that is just amazing. Even in OU the only actual threats it has is Gliscor, everything else just takes far too much damage to be considered a 'check'.

As for Crobat I have to agree its a fairly useful mon, everytime it shows up its caused some problems for my teams. Nothing more than a simple Brave Bird/Roost/Taunt/U-turn setup and what I suspect usually defensive + speed EV's.

However on the other hand the reason I suspect it isn't getting much use is the prevalence of Mew, Chansey, Zapdos cores on stall teams who can soak up hits all day from it and go about their normal business. They simply go to Zapdos or Mew and you're pretty borked and Crobat doesn't have much in the way of surprises it can bring.
 
I remember crobat could surprise people by running a NP set in 4th gen, but that gets walled to hell and back by Chansey.

Then again...crobat has Roost. And immunity to Toxic. and modest LO +2 Dark Pulse can 1hko 252 HP Mew after SR. and +2 Sludge Bomb can 1hko 252 HP Zapdos after SR. NP+Roost might be able to take out stuff, since sludge bomb can force Chansey to waste recovery. Timid loses the KO on max hp Mew, but spikes with SR fixes that problem.

Granted, Poison and Dark have HORRIBLE coverage together, but at +6 Crobat can 2hko Chansey with sludge bomb after SR, which means that if given a free turn to set up NP it can outspeed and defeat all three members of that core...(but if chansey runs thunder wave, you're fucked!)
 
for sweeping, I would too. I just pointed out the calc that shows how a specific set could defeat a specific stall core.

magneton is great for trapping steels though. Nice and fast, so it can set up magnet rise and then tbolt/hp fire all day. And with its stats and eviolite, it can make a nice attacker against hail teams.
 
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