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np: UU Suspect Test Round 2 - Cold As Ice

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I've been using lilligant to much success, but I am having trouble deciding which hidden power to choose.

Grass is resisted by bug, dragon, fire, flying, grass, steel, poison (quite a lot haha).

The four feasible Hidden Powers each have 3 supereffective type coverages against grass resists.

ice - dragon, flying, grass (resisted only by fire, steel)
ground - fire, poison, steel (resisted only by bug, grass, flying)
fire - bug, grass, steel (resisted only by dragon, fire)
rock - bug, fire, flying (resisted only by steel)

It seems the best two choices are rock or fire (which really only has 1 resist since the only common dragon is flygon).

Side note, how good is magneton at trapping steels like cobalion, registeel, or durant?
 
I'm quite sure Mag needs a Scarf to kill Cobalion before it gets Close Combat'd to death(and I don't think HP Fire's a KO though).

As for this, I suddenly had this weird thought: if Snow Warning had been banned, then FEARon would run rampant throughout the tier due to the lack of ANOTHER weather inducer. Every team would probably need to carry Mismagius or some random guy with a weather-inducing move.
 
Presumably he means Shell Bell Sturdy lv 1 Aggron. Which isn't a Rattatta, and therefore can't be "FEAR" anything.
 
AJC said:
round 2 is technically already over the voting is done it's just that the server is down so we can't proceed.

our voting takes place in this sub-forum http://www.smogon.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=155

if your looking for the round 2 voting threads
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Thanks now I can analyze.
Espeon/raptor is banned, no surprise there. Though espeon probably moved up to OU anyway. This means Alakazam can move up and maybe xatu can move up.
Wobbuffet is banned? Wow. I never had too much trouble with it, but I guess I can understand everyones reasoning.
Chansey, despite all the controversy, is NOT banned. Thats interesting, but meh, she isnt as big a problem as she used to be. Mismagius is pretty much on every team I face.
 
reachzero said:
Presumably he means Shell Bell Sturdy lv 1 Aggron. Which isn't a Rattatta, and therefore can't be "FEAR" anything.
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Pretty sure you meant Aron here.


Chansey is too freaking bulky. The only special move i ever saw OHKOing it was CM Stored Power (but we all know this shit is overpowered if you get many boosts). Eberything else is walled to hell and back (it can't touch Mismagius, but Mismagius is stalled even at +6 anyway).
And when some strong moves can't OHKO a base 5 physical defense poke... damn.
 
So the suspect testing can proceed on the PO server, right? Then there's no need to reset the server right? Especially since the next round of UU testing has yet to start, it can proceed on the PO server.

For the people who don't know yet, The Pokemon Online Beta server has added Smogon tiers to their tiers. Pretty awesome.
 
Mew said:
So the suspect testing can proceed on the PO server, right? Then there's no need to reset the server right? Especially since the next round of UU testing has yet to start, it can proceed on the PO server.

For the people who don't know yet, The Pokemon Online Beta server has added Smogon tiers to their tiers. Pretty awesome.
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The overall quality of players on PO...leaves much to be desired. I got voting req-level ratings within an hour of playing using a random triple fighting/triple psychic team I threw together. I wouldn't really be comfortable making any tiering decisions based on that metagame...
I didn't know they had added smogon tiers to the server, however. That solves another major problem I would have had with this idea.
 
idontusehackedpokes said:
Chansey, despite all the controversy, is NOT banned. Thats interesting, but meh, she isnt as big a problem as she used to be. Mismagius is pretty much on every team I face.
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Yeah chansey is a lot easier to handle now. The egg eating bitch is too stupid to run lefties this gen so mine mono fighting team dominates rawr.
 
Mew said:
So the suspect testing can proceed on the PO server, right? Then there's no need to reset the server right? Especially since the next round of UU testing has yet to start, it can proceed on the PO server
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Unless activity starts picking up, the answer is no. Few play Smogon UU on the PO server.
 
FlareBlitz said:
The overall quality of players on PO...leaves much to be desired. I got voting req-level ratings within an hour of playing using a random triple fighting/triple psychic team I threw together. I wouldn't really be comfortable making any tiering decisions based on that metagame...
I didn't know they had added smogon tiers to the server, however. That solves another major problem I would have had with this idea.
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No no no, we definitely should not use their metagame. I have two alts no the first page there too, within 2 days. The few good players that are up there, are now playing NU and LU/RU.
 
I'm not seeing why Chansey should be BL.

List of things that beat Chansey:

Brute force - things like Mismagius, who CAN kill Chansey at +6 if it has HP Fighting. A crit will make Chansey's life really difficult, and Mismagius can PP stall.
Entry hazards - Chansey is vulnerable to all hazards, especially Toxic Spikes.
Psyshock - obviously, things like Mew and Azelf are big threats to Chansey.
Trick - primarily special attackers with Trick easily beat Chansey, e.g. Specs Alakazam, Scarf Porygon-Z.
Knock Off - it wasn't a bad attack last gen and with all the Eviolite users running around this gen it's only gotten better.
U-turn - since Chansey gets no Leftovers regen (and since it's vulnerable to all hazards) U-turn can quickly wear it down.

Maybe it can't be OHKOed easily, but all it can do is sit there and be bulky so ...
 
Ive played this metagame.. its really a disaster. Last generation uu was the probably the best example of a balanced metagame... I'm glad espeon is getting the boot, his ability is far too cancerous in combination with baton pass.
 
No, if anything Ubers is the best example of a balanced metagame.

Espeon is going to be a solid fixture in OU anyway(Look, mom, I'm no. 28!) meaning if it wasn't banned this time, it prolly would get auto-banned the next anyway.
 
Banedon said:
Maybe it can't be OHKOed easily, but all it can do is sit there and be bulky so ...
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You forgot "and pass massive wishes to the rest of its team and heal their status problems and set up stealth rock and spread status". If you're willing to switch mismagius, alakazam, or pg-z directly into chansey then you're either playing really shitty opponents or you have pretty massive balls, because all it takes it "chansey used thunder wave!" and you're essentially down one poke.

The only way to really beat chansey is if you're also running a stall/balanced team and have a pokemon that can set up on it (roserade, deo-d, etc). If you're running offense and you somehow manage to switch into chansey with something that can actually 2hko it, you still have to deal with the fact that it either just wished, took off 33% of your health with stoss, or healed all the statused members of its team. This wasn't as big of a problem in this last metagame because the most popular Pokemon that chansey gave a free turn to (staraptor, wobby and espeon) were so absurdly dangerous that they were able to overcome any set up that chansey itself managed to do. But since we felt the need to ban these offensive/support threats (and they did deserve to be banned), chansey has only gotten stronger, significantly so. And if we keep banning offensive/support threats while telling people "just run knock off :D" then I don't see how this metagame is going to be anything other than a stall circlejerk. Again.


I really wonder what would happen if we dropped Giratina into UU; would that even get banned? People would probably just say "meh the defensive set is vulnerable to all hazards and it has issues with u-turn and it can really just sit there and be fat so let's keep it around" and then maybe ban it because it has really strong draco meteors.

I think there needs to be a fundamental change in the way we think about defensive suspects, because Chansey is so perfectly described by the defensive characteristic that it blows my mind that it has not been banned yet. Chansey is as representative of what is imbalanced in a metagame with respect to defense as Staraptor was with respect to offense and Espeon was with respect to support. That fact that all of these pokemon could be beaten (skill swap works great against espeon!!) should have no bearing on the fact that beating them is disproportionally difficult and causes a drop in metagame diversity and, ultimately, fun. This is much more difficult to see with defensive suspects, simply because they can't just come in and start KOing things like staraptor could. Their impact is spread out throughout the course of a match, especially in the case of a defensive supporter like chansey. Maybe that's why people think it's not a problem. Or maybe people have just gotten used to looking at a special attacker and saying "meh this can't beat chansey let me not use it" or "meh this can't beat chansey, let me devote two more team slots to ensuring it can". I don't know, you guys tell me.
 
Fluffy Bird said:
Ive played this metagame.. its really a disaster. Last generation uu was the probably the best example of a balanced metagame... I'm glad espeon is getting the boot, his ability is far too cancerous in combination with baton pass.
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Errr, maybe because only 2 suspects happened so far? Give this meta some time and it will become fun and balanced (it's already better than OU, anyway...).
 
I don't see the need to rage at the community over Chansey still being around. We're still pretty early in the suspect process, and Chansey did get enough votes to get suspect status next test, so most people are on the same page, anyway.

I've heard a lot of people say that "chansey escaped notice because of all of the other broken stuff we had last round", but honestly what that means is that chansey was less broken last round. We really shouldn't vote based on our predictions of what will be strong next round, we should vote on the current metagame. Unless the voter pool changes significantly or a lot of people change their minds, chansey will be boarding the next train to banville anyway. I'd rather see discussion on how to beat it, since right now we're basically in a position of testing if it's not broken rather than the other way around.
 
Scoopapa said:
I don't see the need to rage at the community over Chansey still being around. We're still pretty early in the suspect process, and Chansey did get enough votes to get suspect status next test, so most people are on the same page, anyway.

I've heard a lot of people say that "chansey escaped notice because of all of the other broken stuff we had last round", but honestly what that means is that chansey was less broken last round. We really shouldn't vote based on our predictions of what will be strong next round, we should vote on the current metagame. Unless the voter pool changes significantly or a lot of people change their minds, chansey will be boarding the next train to banville anyway. I'd rather see discussion on how to beat it, since right now we're basically in a position of testing if it's not broken rather than the other way around.
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Call me an idiot for posting this, but it's impossible for Chansey to be "broken", IMO. It's forced out by pretty much any good physical attacker, and just because someone doesn't always carry something to beat it doesn't mean it's broken (GSC Skarm walls nearly every mono-physical attacker, but instead of banning it, people just learned how to deal with it). Again, in my opinion, the problem is that people just don't want to deal with something just because it's slightly annoying or hard to beat, so they vote to ban it.



@ Flare - I don't exactly follow this thread, my apologies.

Although, now I remember why you're on my ignore list.
 
Virizion said:
Call me an idiot for posting this
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Really tempted to.

Your arguments have already been brought up and addressed ad infinitum. More relevantly, doing some simple calculations would have resulted in you realizing why you're wrong. Chansey is not "forced out by any physical attacker" - Chansey evades a 2hko from LO Mamoswine's Earthquake, which is one of the strongest physical attacks in the entire tier. It's actually capable of surviving even super effective physical hits in a pinch, such as close combat from scarfcross, while being able to status or wishpass afterwards.

I agree with the poster before that it's more or less pointless to discuss Chansey's tiering status at this point, so I will refrain from doing so unless someone thinks they have something new to contribute. As for how I go about beating chansey, I have a natural cure user, a pokemon that is immune to thunder wave, one that is immune to toxic, and an entire team made up of physical attackers.

How are people feeling about smashpass or baton pass in general now that espeon has been banned? I haven't even seen a single one of those teams yet, has anyone else?
 
Of course offensive and defensive suspects are different. A Pokemon that sweeps through 95% of the Pokemon in the tier is far more dangerous than a Pokemon that walls 95% of the tier, as long as that Pokemon has dangerous counters that can set up on it. Example: Chansey walled a lot of Pokemon in 4th gen, but there were plenty of dangerous physical sweepers that could easily set up on it and then sweep teams through the Chansey team's counters (not through Chansey). On the other hand Heracross in UU could reasonably 2HKO, or at least severely damage, many Pokemon. That made it so that each time it switched in it would seriously weaken the defender's core until it eventually broke through. That is the fundamental difference between offensive and defensive suspects.

5th gen Chansey is considerably stronger than 4th gen Chansey. Yes. But it's still exploitable and has no lack of weaknesses. I listed some above. It can also be worn down. Clearly switching Mismagius / Alakazam / Porygon-Z directly into Chansey is brave, but Chansey has no lack of viable switch-ins. You could send in a RestTalker, a Sleep-inducer, etc and force it out. The next time it comes in it's vulnerable. 5th gen Chansey is also completely limited offense wise. This is a key difference between it and Giratina.

Remember also that with team preview you know if you're facing a Chansey. If you can get Alakazam / Porygon-Z in safely against something other than Chansey, you can expect Chansey to switch in! Mismagius can easily switch into Chansey's SToss too, which it will use at some point, same as Wish. Chansey will not be using Thunder Wave all the time.

For the record I've been using a team with all special attackers, beating Chansey with Trick, Psyshock and Quiver Dance.

I think Venomoth in this meta is really ... unreliable. 75% accuracy with Sleep is good and all but if you miss it's almost good game. Quiver Dance is a great boosting move but +1 SpA is usually not enough to get a full sweep. Considering the amount of investment that goes into Quiver Passing, this is rather not worth it. Smashpass I have not used, but I faced once; I Hazed the boosts away after absorbing sleep with a different Pokemon and won easily. Baton Pass as a whole I think has gotten weaker. You now have to get hazards up before attempting a sweep (thanks to Sturdy), and the Roar / Dragon Tail conundrum is difficult to defend against. Most common playstyle at the moment appears to be spikestacking balanced teams, at least so on PO.
 
Now that the server is back up, when will the tiers be updated, when will the ladder be reset and when will we be able to suspect test, which is what most people are here for? (damn, three question in one sentence :O.)
 
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