Weezing seems to be a good partner with crobat IMO. Crobat is weak to the rock type attacks that get thrown around here and there, but weezing can WoW the attacker into submission and get rid of set up sweepers with clear smog. Crobat on the other hand can taunt set up sweepers, and has access to U-turn and the aforementioned dark pulse posted a couple of posts up to anihilate psychic types. Plus, chansey can't toxic either of them.
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np: UU Suspect Test Round 2 - Cold As Ice
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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I would just go for 3 attacks with NP Crobat.
Swept an entire team with NP Crobat once. Set was NP/Sludge Wave/Heat Wave/Giga Drain
It can survive Mamoswine's Ice Shard and recover a good amount of health with Giga Drain for example. Probably can't get it's health back before Chansey KOs it, but oh well...
Swept an entire team with NP Crobat once. Set was NP/Sludge Wave/Heat Wave/Giga Drain
It can survive Mamoswine's Ice Shard and recover a good amount of health with Giga Drain for example. Probably can't get it's health back before Chansey KOs it, but oh well...
@Kenshiro
Although you show how Dark Pulse/Sludge Bomb can offer you the slight ability to beat that setup, as others pointed out HeatWave + Sludge Bomb is better coverage without being restricted to only that one job. Something has to give way and imo it would be Dark Pulse. With the choice between the very specific ability to beat Mew and being completely walled by any random Steel I'd have to sadly choose HeatWave in the end as much as I despise that rodent.
@Master_Win
My only worry about using a Weezing + Crobat setup is they could simply bring Mew on the Weezing and fire a random STAB psychic. One of them dies whether you switch or not so in the end same problem again, Dark Pulse is limited.
Although you show how Dark Pulse/Sludge Bomb can offer you the slight ability to beat that setup, as others pointed out HeatWave + Sludge Bomb is better coverage without being restricted to only that one job. Something has to give way and imo it would be Dark Pulse. With the choice between the very specific ability to beat Mew and being completely walled by any random Steel I'd have to sadly choose HeatWave in the end as much as I despise that rodent.
@Master_Win
My only worry about using a Weezing + Crobat setup is they could simply bring Mew on the Weezing and fire a random STAB psychic. One of them dies whether you switch or not so in the end same problem again, Dark Pulse is limited.
Yeah, and with a 33.3% chance of hitting rest, close combat, plus a 15% chance to miss megahorn, I am pretty sure ghosts will happily switch in on Heracross. Zapdos, I'll give you. But you can't deny that losing pursuit/stone edge really takes a way a lot of the scare power.
My point was that if I see a life orb, heracross is no longer scary. When you see a heracross on the oppisite team, unless you already know there are 2 scarfes, the assumption is the cross is scarfed, not only because it is, imo, its best set, but it is the most common set. Who cares if it can switch moves, if it only has two to choose from? If you want to roll the dice with rest talk, that's fine with me.
I don't like CB hera, and I would STILL run it over sleep talk.
My claims are valid. A base 85 heracross is much less threatening then a scarfed, ~400 speed cross. Losing the coverage moves are also bad. Sure, you can hit harder then the band set, sometimes, but the band is more reliable in comparison.
What is everyone thinking about Ice Body Regice?
When it gets released (if ever) i expect him to shake up the waters quite a bit.
With Abomasnow comfortably sitting in UU and the only other weather inducer being the sucky Hippopotas, keeping Hail up, and thus reliable recovery for Regice, will be pretty easy.
A Regice with a simple set of Charge Beam, Ice Beam/Blizzard, Substitute, Protect with max Hp/max Def would be pretty difficult to take down don't you think so?
The annoying fighters like Heracross and Hitmontop can all get stalled out of pp,with sub + protect, since their only fighting move that can break Regice is CC.
Any special unstabbed fire move would do shit against Regice,status won't work due to sub,Steel moves are rare(somewhat)and some of them are not strong enough to make you sweat(Registeel).
So the only real worries to this set seem to be strong fire types,strong rock types(most of them have low S.Def and/or are weak to ice so taking an Ice Beam to break the sub isn't always easy)
and a strong Fight and Steel pokes that don't use low PP moves as CC or Gyro Ball.
I know it is just speculation but i just thought about it today and it seemed amazing to me!
What are your thoughts?
When it gets released (if ever) i expect him to shake up the waters quite a bit.
With Abomasnow comfortably sitting in UU and the only other weather inducer being the sucky Hippopotas, keeping Hail up, and thus reliable recovery for Regice, will be pretty easy.
A Regice with a simple set of Charge Beam, Ice Beam/Blizzard, Substitute, Protect with max Hp/max Def would be pretty difficult to take down don't you think so?
The annoying fighters like Heracross and Hitmontop can all get stalled out of pp,with sub + protect, since their only fighting move that can break Regice is CC.
Any special unstabbed fire move would do shit against Regice,status won't work due to sub,Steel moves are rare(somewhat)and some of them are not strong enough to make you sweat(Registeel).
So the only real worries to this set seem to be strong fire types,strong rock types(most of them have low S.Def and/or are weak to ice so taking an Ice Beam to break the sub isn't always easy)
and a strong Fight and Steel pokes that don't use low PP moves as CC or Gyro Ball.
I know it is just speculation but i just thought about it today and it seemed amazing to me!
What are your thoughts?
Regice may indeed be a good replacement to some of the banned Hail Abusers with its DW ability. I am assuming Toxic Spikes are down to deal with Chansey? Focus Punch over Charge Beam may be an option; despite Regice's horrid attack, the high base power of Focus Punch makes up for it. Just to illustrate, a Max Atk Quiet Regice would inflict 34% minimally to Chansey with Focus Punch - Only a +3 Blizzard would outdamage that 1 Focus Punch. Fighting + Ice is good coverage as Electric + Ice.
I wonder if we'll be able to open suspect noms quicker than usual next round, considering how much time we've had to play since the last change. We're practically over a month into the round as far as the metagame is concerned. Everyone's favorite weather inducers are probably due for another round of scrutiny.
You're going to nominate Abomasnow and Hippopostas (Hippowdon may be coming to UU soon too)?
Myself, aside from Snow Cloak's miss chance, nothing jumps out to me as obviously broken. Hail is perhaps the most annoying playstyle around right now, but I'm not convinced it is broken without Froslass's 20% evade chance. Chansey has gotten a lot of controversy, but given the veritable list of Pokemon that outright beat it, including special sweepers, I'm ever more convinced that it is UU. Smashpass has disappeared completely; in my memory I've seen like only one Smeargle in all my battles. Although deadly, it's only fair to say that Smashpass is highly unreliable.
If I had to nominate something I would probably choose Victini, who can hit from both the physical and special sides with powerful force, but it can be played around so I'm kinda on the fence about its tiering. Celebi is similar to Victini, but last I saw it's already OU (and it has solid checks too) so again I'm on the fence about its tiering.
Myself, aside from Snow Cloak's miss chance, nothing jumps out to me as obviously broken. Hail is perhaps the most annoying playstyle around right now, but I'm not convinced it is broken without Froslass's 20% evade chance. Chansey has gotten a lot of controversy, but given the veritable list of Pokemon that outright beat it, including special sweepers, I'm ever more convinced that it is UU. Smashpass has disappeared completely; in my memory I've seen like only one Smeargle in all my battles. Although deadly, it's only fair to say that Smashpass is highly unreliable.
If I had to nominate something I would probably choose Victini, who can hit from both the physical and special sides with powerful force, but it can be played around so I'm kinda on the fence about its tiering. Celebi is similar to Victini, but last I saw it's already OU (and it has solid checks too) so again I'm on the fence about its tiering.
I haven't had one of these debates in months.
It's not like the Ghosts in question can actually beat Heracross before being on the likely end of a Guts Megahorn.
Froslass's Ice Beam does 35% maximum, it's not likely to 3HKO Heracross. The only way it's likely is if Heracross lands a Life Orb Megahorn on it, but that way Froslass feints anyway. It would honestly have to risk switching in .33x.85 chance of dying in order to just Taunt Heracross. It would have to switch out immediately after. It's only a good switch in for the Scarf variant ironically, since it can take every single attack CS Cross has.
Mismagius is in a similar boat but it can 3HKO Heracross. The only problem is that it's switching in and it needs to 2HKO Hercross otherwise Heracross wakes up and, again, kills it. Substitute works well though, but again, switching in with more than ~30% chance to die.....a counter?
When did I ever deny that losing Pursuit and Stone Edge takes away a lot of power? Pursuit in particular is one of the most useful Heracross tools simply BECAUSE it can otherwise beat these ghosts one on one.
My point was that you made a baseless assumption about the observational skills of the average opponent. You cannot prove that people overlook the Band's power and assume Scarf or lack of power and still assume Band....when they don't ignore Life Orb recoil. I can prove that there is a difference in power and that people can tell the difference.
If you use a move other than Close Combat / Megahorn more than ~20% of the time then you are not using Heracross to its fullest potential. Those two moves are its bread and better. One takes out 90% of the Pokemon that would switch into the other. Not that Pursuit and Stone Edge don't help, but they are by no means "necessary".
Who cares if it switches moves? What happens when Slowbro switches into CC and you're forced out because you can't switch moves? What happens when Registeel switches into Megahorn? Those Pokemon can no longer ever switch in safely. This is why basically every set uses a Life Orb over Choice Band/Specs UNLESS there is something gained by the HP retained or by the extra 2% of damage given. In Heracross's case, there is, so the Band is definitely a more than viable option. However that doesn't rule out Life Orb.
And discussing Scarf here basically irrelevant they are two different sets doing two very different things. That is a different discussion altogether (not that I won't have it, it's just not exactly relevant right now).
Ignoring the strengths of the set you're criticizing while over-exaggerating the weakness does not make your claims valid.
A base 85 Heracross with the ability to KO and beat Heracross' (and most importantly, other Pokemon's) usual counters is not anywhere near "much less threatening" then the Scarfed set. Gaining immense switch-in capabilities and power is not anywhere near "bad" compared to the reliability of the Choice Band set.
No set is "much" better than the other. Maybe you prefer the Scarf set, but that does not mean the other sets are bad.
EDIT: On a different note, I haven't even seen Victini on the ladder since last round.
It's not like the Ghosts in question can actually beat Heracross before being on the likely end of a Guts Megahorn.
Froslass's Ice Beam does 35% maximum, it's not likely to 3HKO Heracross. The only way it's likely is if Heracross lands a Life Orb Megahorn on it, but that way Froslass feints anyway. It would honestly have to risk switching in .33x.85 chance of dying in order to just Taunt Heracross. It would have to switch out immediately after. It's only a good switch in for the Scarf variant ironically, since it can take every single attack CS Cross has.
Mismagius is in a similar boat but it can 3HKO Heracross. The only problem is that it's switching in and it needs to 2HKO Hercross otherwise Heracross wakes up and, again, kills it. Substitute works well though, but again, switching in with more than ~30% chance to die.....a counter?
When did I ever deny that losing Pursuit and Stone Edge takes away a lot of power? Pursuit in particular is one of the most useful Heracross tools simply BECAUSE it can otherwise beat these ghosts one on one.
Mishra said:
My point was that you made a baseless assumption about the observational skills of the average opponent. You cannot prove that people overlook the Band's power and assume Scarf or lack of power and still assume Band....when they don't ignore Life Orb recoil. I can prove that there is a difference in power and that people can tell the difference.
If you use a move other than Close Combat / Megahorn more than ~20% of the time then you are not using Heracross to its fullest potential. Those two moves are its bread and better. One takes out 90% of the Pokemon that would switch into the other. Not that Pursuit and Stone Edge don't help, but they are by no means "necessary".
Who cares if it switches moves? What happens when Slowbro switches into CC and you're forced out because you can't switch moves? What happens when Registeel switches into Megahorn? Those Pokemon can no longer ever switch in safely. This is why basically every set uses a Life Orb over Choice Band/Specs UNLESS there is something gained by the HP retained or by the extra 2% of damage given. In Heracross's case, there is, so the Band is definitely a more than viable option. However that doesn't rule out Life Orb.
And discussing Scarf here basically irrelevant they are two different sets doing two very different things. That is a different discussion altogether (not that I won't have it, it's just not exactly relevant right now).
Mishra said:
Ignoring the strengths of the set you're criticizing while over-exaggerating the weakness does not make your claims valid.
A base 85 Heracross with the ability to KO and beat Heracross' (and most importantly, other Pokemon's) usual counters is not anywhere near "much less threatening" then the Scarfed set. Gaining immense switch-in capabilities and power is not anywhere near "bad" compared to the reliability of the Choice Band set.
No set is "much" better than the other. Maybe you prefer the Scarf set, but that does not mean the other sets are bad.
EDIT: On a different note, I haven't even seen Victini on the ladder since last round.
Isn't it obvious ...
RestTalk Heracross vs. Scarf Heracross
+ Rest can remove status like paralysis + provides healing; it can also remove burn / poison
+ Can function as a sleep absorber
+ 1.95x modifier
+ Retains its two most powerful attacks, Close Combat and Megahorn
+ Can switch moves
- Unreliable
- Reduced coverage makes it vulnerable to certain Pokemon
- Unreliable
- Slow
- Unreliable
That's about it really. RestTalk LO Heracross is first and foremost unreliable, and you may not get the move you want. That kind of difference can kill you, e.g. if you get Close Combat vs. Slowbro you are dead, especially after the defense drop. The other big drawback is that it is quite slow. Heracross is decently sturdy for a sweeper, but not a bulky wall like Suicune. Getting the turns to set up (Rest counts as set up) can be difficult, and with the new sleep mechanics Heracross is not very likely to ever wake up. Against that RestTalk Heracross is much harder to wall, fears status less, is harder to set up on and cannot be worn down by residual damage anymore. They may be the same Pokemon, but they do different things, and neither are better or worse than the other.
Isn't that the end of the story ...
@Victini, it's surprising isn't it? For such a strong Pokemon you'd expect to see more of it, but aside from some Scarf Victini (especially on hail teams) they've been quite rare. I know the reason I haven't seriously used Victini is because of the SR weakness, so maybe that's why others aren't doing so either.
RestTalk Heracross vs. Scarf Heracross
+ Rest can remove status like paralysis + provides healing; it can also remove burn / poison
+ Can function as a sleep absorber
+ 1.95x modifier
+ Retains its two most powerful attacks, Close Combat and Megahorn
+ Can switch moves
- Unreliable
- Reduced coverage makes it vulnerable to certain Pokemon
- Unreliable
- Slow
- Unreliable
That's about it really. RestTalk LO Heracross is first and foremost unreliable, and you may not get the move you want. That kind of difference can kill you, e.g. if you get Close Combat vs. Slowbro you are dead, especially after the defense drop. The other big drawback is that it is quite slow. Heracross is decently sturdy for a sweeper, but not a bulky wall like Suicune. Getting the turns to set up (Rest counts as set up) can be difficult, and with the new sleep mechanics Heracross is not very likely to ever wake up. Against that RestTalk Heracross is much harder to wall, fears status less, is harder to set up on and cannot be worn down by residual damage anymore. They may be the same Pokemon, but they do different things, and neither are better or worse than the other.
Isn't that the end of the story ...
@Victini, it's surprising isn't it? For such a strong Pokemon you'd expect to see more of it, but aside from some Scarf Victini (especially on hail teams) they've been quite rare. I know the reason I haven't seriously used Victini is because of the SR weakness, so maybe that's why others aren't doing so either.
Yes Pocket T-Spikes support is almost mandatory to deal with Chansey and generally act as a stallrein while at the same time boosting your s.atk.
Finally i think that Focus Punch is a pretty bad idea and not worth it at all.If you are going to run max atk then this means that you won't be maxing your defence which is not the best idea.And anyways 34% is nothing important really and it is not going to break Chansey any day.Also by giving up Charge Beam you lose the chance to sweep with a +6 Regice which is hilarious!!!
Just run T-Spikes.
I'm pretty sure hippopotas is gonna stay in UU. I can only think of 4 pokemon at the moment that can abuse sand stream.
Gigalith (with sand force boost)
Sandslash (sand rush boost= sandslash a sweeper?!)
Cacturne (Sand veil for a stallish type sweep with sub and F-punch)
Stoutland (Sand force and return/giga impact are gonna hit like a brick wall infused with a truck!)
And most of these guys are NU/RU.
^ You're forgetting Pokemon that simply perform well in sandstorm, they don't necesserily have to have an ability boost to be better in sandstorm.
Such as:
Gligar
Rhyperior
Cobalion
Registeel
to name a few
And not to mention that sandstorm further neuters Chansey since it lacks Leftovers to stave off the extra damage.
Such as:
Gligar
Rhyperior
Cobalion
Registeel
to name a few
And not to mention that sandstorm further neuters Chansey since it lacks Leftovers to stave off the extra damage.
RT Cross is not superior to Scarf Cross. Scarf Cross is not superior to RT Cross. They perform completely different roles. Scarf Cross is meant to revenge kill things and sweep late game. RT Cross is meant to punch holes with insane power and render stall useless. Do you wear down the opposing team so that your RT Cross can sweep? No, it's too slow. Do you send out Scarf Cross early game to fire off a x1.95 STAB attack? No, it's not powerful enough. Really, guys, it's as simple as that. Both are great Pokemon, but they perform different roles.
You know, I'm starting to lean toward using samurott. It is kind of unpredictable as you don't know if it's running a physical, special, or mixed set to counter you. If you send in chansey, a physical set is gonna screw you over after a SD. If you send in a physical wall, you could get swamped by surf or frozen by ice beam.
banedon said:
Have you guys been playing a different ladder (that would explain why I haven't battled Heysup since last gen)? Victini's been pretty common, if not at the very beginning of this round then certainly towards the middle and end. I was under the impression that it had really come into its own post-sun and staraptor.
Breludicolo said:
and Golurk :D
banedon said:
I'm considering it, as UU has turned into some serious weather wars. The top of the leaderboard is pretty clogged with weather teams, and I've personally had a ton of success with Sand lately.
Before anybody jumps down my throat here, I'm not saying this is a bulletproof case that these are broken. Like I said in my earlier post, they just deserve close scrutiny.
I haven't noticed this at all. I've probably faced one sand team in my last 20 matches. Hail is pretty common, though, and I'm getting really sick of froslass -_- (not that I wasn't already, seriously fuck that thing.) No matter how many anti-hail pokes I carry lass manages to be a bitch every game. I really want round 3 to start so we can get rid of it. :(
Sand is a pretty balanced playstyle imo. Stoutland is... okay, but I think if I were to run sand it wouldn't make it onto my team. Walled by too much. At least the CB set I see everyone using, easy to deal with. Other than that not -too- much has changed from 4th gen to 5th gen. Eviolite is nice though, it lets Hippopotas be more than SR layer + fodder. And Gligar is a beast. Maybe I'm forgetting something but overall I'm just not seeing much sand so...
Well, as for Escavalier, it still hits absurdly hard and has that great typing, but I've found Heracross performs more consistently. As a wall-breaker it really helps to not have to worry about burns, especially scald burns. It's not a bad poke but Hera will fit on more teams, I think. Regirock... idk, the typing leaves a lot to be desired, but a fire resist is certainly welcome. I might use it in a sand team, but otherwise there are generally better options. Omastar is definitely underrated, Shell Smash just wrecks and it's even more underrated as a hazard layer.
Yeah the top of the ladder is filled with weather teams. Scoopapa I think has three alts up there with sand, and there're lots of hail teams out there too. It's just that like Scoopapa, I don't know how broken weather is. I lost one game to Scoopapa's sand team, but if my Sleep Powder had hit, I would probably have won it. Games vs. hail are tough, but winnable. I'd almost swept one team when I forfeited because my opponent wanted to preserve his rating (I figured with the round not yet begun, high rating doesn't exactly mean much). My main concern with facing hail is hoping attacks like Flamethrower don't miss Froslass.
Perhaps weather does deserve a closer look, but I'm just not convinced (yet) that it is broken.
Perhaps weather does deserve a closer look, but I'm just not convinced (yet) that it is broken.
Yeah, that's how I see hail. I can overcome blizz spam, but Froslass just hax its way out of everything. Evasion hax is always annoying.
Sand is beatable, but it is a very balanced playstyle.
Or we could just get rid of Froslass and leave Snow Warning alone for now. Just a thought.
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