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np: UU - The Boys Are Back in Town
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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Because after X Calm Minds it goes from 40000 counters to zero. That's why Raikou sweeps so easily, all of its counters eventually can't hold it back minus Chansey which is suicide sometimes.....
For example, Venusaur is only a counter if it's at perfect health and Raikou has no Calm Minds.
It's actually pretty easy to get rid of Raikou's counters with a Honchkrow, especially Power Whip / Earthquake Venusaur(the only Venusaur that has any business taking on Raikou) and Swords Dance Sceptile. Bring in 'kou once and lure out the Venusaur, switch to Honchkrow on their Earthquake / Sleep Powder, and then either Pursuit it on its way out (at which point they're going to be at 40% coming in the next time, easy pickings even with a resisted Thunderbolt) or hit it with Drill Peck or Brave Bird and take it out permanently.
With the only reason you'd use HP Ice out of the way, you can start to use HP Grass which takes care of Rhyperior and Quagsire.
Honchkrow also lures in Registeel / Donphan and does a decent enough amount of damage to where they can no longer handle a +1 Thunderbolt / Super Effective Hidden Power.
With the only reason you'd use HP Ice out of the way, you can start to use HP Grass which takes care of Rhyperior and Quagsire.
Honchkrow also lures in Registeel / Donphan and does a decent enough amount of damage to where they can no longer handle a +1 Thunderbolt / Super Effective Hidden Power.
I do have a question: If Gallade is so OMGWTFBL, why isn't Blaziken? Fire is a much better attacking STAB than Psychic, he only has 5 less base attack and same base speed but better hp and attack AND resistence to Sucker Punch, not to mention viable mixed sets due to his high SpA. Both have access to a 40 BP unstab'd priority move with 1 immunity, but Blaziken has access to a STAB special priority attack as well. I'm anticipating a "Flare Blitz has recoil" argument, yet most people in the "Gallade is BL" camp say "1 kill means he did his job".
Seriously, they share the same counters as far as the SD set goes, both are powerful wallbreakers, but in this thread as a whole, Gallade is being very exaggerated.
Seriously, they share the same counters as far as the SD set goes, both are powerful wallbreakers, but in this thread as a whole, Gallade is being very exaggerated.
Hmm, then maybe the Gallade I was facing didn't have max Attack? I'm not sure. All I know is my Milotic survived lol. I edited that statement out of my post regardless.
Well for one, Close Combat > Superpower. Gallade also has a high Special Defense stat to set up on on Pokemon like Milotic. Fire-type might be a good attacking type, but Blaziken is very exposed to Water-type threats. Gallade can take a Surf from Milotic and Slowbro.
Two words: Close Combat.
Also...
Blaziken either has to like OHKO himself with Flare Blitz, or lower his atk with Superpower in order to attack.
Not to mention, Gallade has Shadow Sneak which is a million times better than Quick Attack because it hits Ghosts, a big counter to any fighting type.
Not to mention it is far bulkier and has better defensive typing.
I love Blaziken, don't get me wrong, but Gallade is in another league.
Here are some reasons:
1. Close Combat > Superpower in all cases
2. Shadow Sneak actually hits one of the types that is immune to Close Combat for Super Effective damage, whereas Ghost is immune to both Superpower AND Quick Attack.
3. Blaziken's Fire-typing is not a helper, it's a downer, because it's neutral to Stealth Rock, and gains a Ground / Water weak.
4. Blaziken can't set up on weak special attacks like Gallade can, because it has craptastic Defenses (even if it has better HP). Gallade can set up on a lot of stuff, like Milotic and Venusaur.
1. Close Combat > Superpower in all cases
2. Shadow Sneak actually hits one of the types that is immune to Close Combat for Super Effective damage, whereas Ghost is immune to both Superpower AND Quick Attack.
3. Blaziken's Fire-typing is not a helper, it's a downer, because it's neutral to Stealth Rock, and gains a Ground / Water weak.
4. Blaziken can't set up on weak special attacks like Gallade can, because it has craptastic Defenses (even if it has better HP). Gallade can set up on a lot of stuff, like Milotic and Venusaur.
I somewhat agree with basically your entire post, except why wouldn't you use HP Water (you can IV it to keep the 31 Spe)? You can hit Steelix, Donphan, 4x Rhyperior, and basically everything Grass hits minus Quagsire. I think that's a pretty good trade off, considering Quagsire is very uncommon still.
*sarcasm* Really, I never knew. *shot*
Like I said previously, it may be interesting to explore having both on one team - Ken comes in mid-game, SDs, and goes on a rampage. Gallade follows up. Actually, Blaziken can remove most of Gallade's counters/checks. Moltres and Honchkrow, though, still are very dangerous. Plus, stuff like Blastoise can come in and counter both to kingdom come, though it has trouble with repeated boosted hits.
Blaziken has its uses for SD. Firstly, it lures bulky waters. The reason why I love Blaziken is that it lures certain Pokemon. When these guys are removed, it helps the other sweeper late game. Lastly, Flare Blitz is actually a sweet move when I want to penetrate through Uxie (something Gallade can't), Claydol, Spiritomb, etc.
Not to mention Camerupt, who's not even being utilized since he counters every Raikou without Water. He's more useful then you might think.
Not really. Yes, I agree that the metagame is unstable in its current state, but I also believe that this step is ultimately necessary in order to make progress in correctly shaping UU, albeit with no reference to the manner and timing of the step in question. Simply bitching about this step's 'disastrous' effect on the metagame does not help one jot, and saying that this is proof that 50% is accurate is logically equivalent to saying that this is proof that all 3 BLs are broken without doubt. This is the part I disagree with; it might just be 1 or 2 that are causing the problem, and if so it is important to find out through objective testing. It would not only be very inaccurate but also very unfair if one perfectly acceptable Pokemon became a BL scapegoat just because it happened to be originally banned and then retested alongside two Pokemon that are in fact broken.
This is quite an interesting point, as I actually agree that Honchkrow can be a lethally effective partner to Raikou. But, I think we disagree on the implications of this statement, as I believe that trying to argue that Raikou is BL in this way is getting the wrong end of the stick. The offensive characteristic requires that the Pokemon in question be able to sweep 'with little effort, which actually says nothing about the effect of outside influence. If we look carefully at the Honchkrow example given, we see that Raikou can only begin to sweep with little effort once Honchkrow has gone to the effort on its behalf, which by itself could be deemed as 'effortless'. What does this sound like? Why, the support characteristic of course! Honchkrow is the guilty party here as it is the one that is effortlessly providing the in-battle situation that allows another Pokemon (in this case Raikou) to fulfil the offensive characteristic.
I actually believe that Honchkrow is broken in much the same way (though not exactly the same) that Gallade is, i.e. the ability to effortlessly punch holes, but in the general case of your specific example. I have found that against the vast majority of teams, it is extremely easy for Honchkrow to inflict at least the equivalent of 100% damage to the opponent's team, and therefore punch a major hole in it. With 2-3 varied sweepers complementing Honchkrow, its effect will most often allow at least one of those sweepers to have a much easier time sweeping up. None of the surrounding sweepers are broken by themselves, but Honchkrow in fact is because of the effotless support it provides them.
I personally believe that the Support Characteristic should be split into two; Offensive Support and Defensive / Utility Support, and I would definitely nominate Honchkrow under the former.
On another note, I'm also agreeing with the notion that Blaziken is nowhere near the potential BL material that Gallade is.
EDIT:
As far as Uxie is concerned, it can be seen both ways. Gallade has the option of Night Slash and X-Scissor to hit it hard, but also has Shadow Sneak for effective priority. If it is a case of Uxie outspeeding (both Gallade and Blaziken share 80 base), then Gallade is better because of effective priority and Psychic neutrality. So Blaziken is arguably slightly better against slower Uxie, but Gallade is much better against faster ones.
I guess then it's up to debate whether or not the ease of which Raikou is supported, or the ease that its supporters support it is what's actually broken.
@ Lemmiwinks
Blaziken is not slightly better at beating slow Uxie, its clearly better. Blaziken can deal up to 89.27% - 105.37% on defensive Uxie while Gallade can only muster 71.75% - 84.75%. These are Adamant natured and +2 applied.
Blaziken is not slightly better at beating slow Uxie, its clearly better. Blaziken can deal up to 89.27% - 105.37% on defensive Uxie while Gallade can only muster 71.75% - 84.75%. These are Adamant natured and +2 applied.
Absolutely, and I do respect your opinion should it be the former.
The reason I believe it is the latter is because Raikou's checks and counters are actually rather varied, more so than people seem to realize. With Honchkrow, it offensively supports sweepers in general. In any given battle, Honchkrow is probably not choosing its targets beforehand, but the general result is that something is punched into and heavily damaged, often something that at least one sweeper can exploit. It is the generality of its effect that I believe distinguishes it from the case of Raikou's 'supportability', which is arguably much less concrete from battle to battle.
Fair enough. But then again, the KO isn't guaranteed, and Blaziken is at much greater risk of being KO'd in return. I concede nonetheless.
1: There's pretty much nothing that can take a Superpower from Blaziken and a +1 anything else. And remember, the Gallade argument I'm arguing against is "1 kill means he's done his job".
2: That's very true, but it really doesn't make a difference with the shit BP anyway, only helps against Mismagius, really, and leaves him open to swellow and the like.
3: The only major weakness it gains over Gallade is Aqua Jet, and it trades that for Shadow Sneak, which is becoming very popular as a response, not to mention the Neutral Sucker Punch which is goddamn everywhere.
4: I haven't seen many special Venusaurs lately, even so, most carry Power Whip or Leaf Storm, both of which 2HKO Gallade with ease even if not maxed in their respective attack stats.
The point is, both of them are wallbreakers of the same relative strength, Gallade is very overhyped because we've had less time to think up counters to him than to Blaziken (remember when Mixken was such a huge threat it prompted Milotic to become #1?).
Of all the pokemon this test I feel REALLY have that broken feeling to them is Honchkrow and Gallade. I dont need to list all the reasons why, and I think the feeling is begin to catch on. I think both could be looked at as supportive characteristic pokemon at the same time as being offensive characteristic pokemon. Crobat was much the same way in that it could be debated that he fit many different characteristics at the same time while not being overwhelmingly any of them.
Btw, arcanine is amazing. Im running a stall (gasp) team with double intimidate and it has really done well in such a physically oriented metagame and believe it or not I have pretty much stopped having trouble with gallade (simply because I dont block spins and focus on toxic spikes and status more than entry hazards and make sure spiritomb NEVER comes out unless it has to). I think he might become a stall staple as long as honch and gallade are running around.
Also- Toxic spikes in this meta shouldn't be underestimated. Its not like old uu where everyone has a roserade offensive teams and defensive teams alike. It's still not quite as good as spikes, but to teams without a nidoroyal or venusaur (havent seen and drapion really) it can be kryptonite.
Btw, arcanine is amazing. Im running a stall (gasp) team with double intimidate and it has really done well in such a physically oriented metagame and believe it or not I have pretty much stopped having trouble with gallade (simply because I dont block spins and focus on toxic spikes and status more than entry hazards and make sure spiritomb NEVER comes out unless it has to). I think he might become a stall staple as long as honch and gallade are running around.
Also- Toxic spikes in this meta shouldn't be underestimated. Its not like old uu where everyone has a roserade offensive teams and defensive teams alike. It's still not quite as good as spikes, but to teams without a nidoroyal or venusaur (havent seen and drapion really) it can be kryptonite.
It is for this same reason that I find Kou broken. It can come in on alot and set up. Once set up and played by a good battler it is GG
Not really, especially if you're against another good battler.
None of the Pokémon individually are broken, IMO. For some reason my team can beat most of them 1v1. Magneton is problematic, though, lol.
As a team, if I have a bad matchup, or if I get haxed, then I lose. It's not the individual Pokémon's fault, IMO.
None of the Pokémon individually are broken, IMO. For some reason my team can beat most of them 1v1. Magneton is problematic, though, lol.
As a team, if I have a bad matchup, or if I get haxed, then I lose. It's not the individual Pokémon's fault, IMO.
Well the issue is that they both do the same thing. Blaziken and Gallade both set up + destroy as much as possible, but Gallade is better at it. If you were to use, say, Swords Dance Blaziken + Scarf Gallade, that would probably be pretty interesting.
I also want to clear something up that I've been seeing all over the place. Honchkrow can't switch into Venusaur on Power Whip.
Jolly LO Venusaur vs Honchkrow:
263 Atk vs 140 Def & 341 HP (120 Base Power): 157 - 186 (46.04% - 54.55%) Guaranteed 2HKO with Stealth Rock.
Okay, maybe not everyone runs Life Orb:
263 Atk vs 140 Def & 341 HP (120 Base Power): 121 - 143 (35.48% - 41.94%) 80% 2HKO with Stealth Rock.
And with simply an Adamant nature and 242 Speed:
289 Atk vs 140 Def & 341 HP (120 Base Power): 133 - 157 (39.00% - 46.04%) Guaranteed 2HKO with Stealth Rock.
Unless you are using some sort of pussy Venusaur, Honchkrow isn't going to be able to switch and do anything at all except for maybe a Sucker Punch at worst (though you could get a Synthesis up while it does that).
So yea, Honchkrow is a lousy switch-in in this case.
or you run a useful bulky set that can come in before letting bulk up and always beats it out. it can't buff itself and still hit you on the switch, that's the main thing.
oh nostalgia goggles, things sure do seem better back when we convinced ourselves they were better. The truth is, the old metagame wasn't very balanced either, Milotic, Mismagius, Honchkrow, Ambipom, Registeel and Roserade were as abundant as the new top tier (which still includes krow and ambipom). Froslass and Raikou have proven themselves to just be good, and not broken, as lass isn't the best lead out there, and raikou either takes too long to set up (subCM lets a counter get in and hit it before it's set) or is revenge kod by any physical scarfer (or strong priority really) if it runs CM + 3 attacks.
Gallade is a toss up, a scarfed revenge killer works pretty well on it, but when you combine that with the bulk to take a + 2 SS, a good Flying/Bug/Ghost/really strong attack and a utility outside koing gallade, the list is narrowed to about 10 pokes, and half of them are SR weak, add in slowbro and spiritomb and you have around 12 pokes who can stop him. he's definitely top tier, but I'm not sure if that's broken.
Honchkrow is the frontrunner on the ban-list by far though, get it in properly and it'll get you 2-3 kos unless they're running a bulky rhyperior. It doesn't even need to set up, you just have to hope its recoil kills it
Hes not talking about that UU... hes talking about when staraptor and abomasnow were legal.
Also, Arcanine counters honchkrow just fine, well as close as it comes I guess...
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