Actually, I ran a decent stall team before PL got shanked.
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NP: UU - Zero to Hero
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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What are you saying?
Your Scarf Rotom Calcs show that Scarf Cross can only take a HP Flying all the time when Stealth Rock or Spikes are not down, and since Stealth Rock is pretty much always down, Heracorss isin't taking it any time soon. the Resttalk calc is good but it's 2HKOed and you would need to hit Rotom with Megahorn to win, which happens 33% of the time, so Rotom has the advantage.
You do know theres something called smart switching that stall can do to wear down Heracross and force out Choice versions? They can also use entry hazards to give the Flame Orb set much less time to kill and makes Choice versions much easier to deal with. Yes, Resttalk Cross is also a big problem that stall has to deal with, but well built stall teams can handle Cross.
Arcanine was a good poke for Stall before Cross dropped and so was all the others you listed besides Golbat and I think Gligar. Also, the Stall player can attack and shorten Hera's time to kill them. Arcanine can't really come into Hera's attacks if it has Flame Orb, but he does have Intimidate, which makes the Choice Band set easier to switch into, and makes all the other sets except for Resttalk (real pain for Stall) easy to switch into unless they Stone Edge, but he's still great for Heracross.
Finally, clearly don't know what your talking about since it's obvious Stall still uses status alot, but know they can't just spam Will-O-Wisp and Toxic without risk, which is actually a good thing because it makes Stall users have to think a bit more and try to predict if Hera's coming in or not, and Thunder Wave just dooms Heracross, so thats a status that would still be used by Stall. And 2HKOed with CB+Guts means the really defensive pokes can still take the hit and hit Heracross back and shorten its rampage quite a bit.
Your acting like Heracross is some great god who forces you to run medicore pokes on Stall to beat it when it's honestly a great poke, but Stall and every other playstyle can change to beat Cross without using medicore pokes.
( This is just for incase you try and say that since Gallade is banned, Corss should be too)
Now Gallade was banned because of it's abilty to murder Stall, while being good against Offense with just one set. Heracross has a choice of being great against Offense (Choice Scarf is really the best option for that) or destroying Stall ( Flame Orb and Resttalk being the best there). When you just take a quick glance at those 2, you might think they are similar in destroying Stall and Cross should be in BL. When you actually take a more closer look, you'll see Gallade has a few more advantages then Heracross, most important is Shadow Sneak, which meant that Dugtrio, Alakazam, Mismagius, and Rotom couldn't revenge kill a +2 Gallade nearly as easily as they can against Cross. Gallade also can run Trick+Choice Band to permently cripple any special attacker without Trick or Stall member.
Can we please avoid exaggerating by saying stuff like "Heracross is blatantly broken" because he is still very controversial at the moment. Hyperbole will not get you anywhere. I'm leaning to BL myself at the moment, especially since I've played quite a few matches where it usually comes down to Heracross vs Heracross and the winner usually determined by Heracross and not other members. However, I still want to give it a chance, because none of his sets are particularly overpowering. Any non-Scarf set is beaten by Pokemon that are faster than it (Although it's hard to switch in), and Scarf is walled to hell and back by a truck load of Pokemon.
To people using Stall, try using SubRoost Moltres. Seriously. Yes, I know he's massively SR weak, but if you're running Stall you'll likely be keeping those rocks off the field anyway. As long as you don't switch into Stone Edge, Moltres will pretty much beat every Heracross set (Including Sub+3 Attacks, since you can just pressure stall Stone Edge and then laugh).
Can you build a stall team that beats this set:
Heracross @ Occa Berry
228 HP / 252 Attack / 28 Speed / Adamant
Close Combat
Megahorn
Stone Edge
Swords Dance
?
Defensive Gligar OHKOs that after the Def drop from CC or with a layer of spikes and SR.
If you're running a Heracross set like that... well, let's just say that most of the tier gave a sigh of relief.
Seriously, SD is Heracross' worst set. OK, it beats the handful of stall teams running around on the ladder. But it is dead weight against offensive teams, especially since you're not running speed, and you have no boosting item.
It fails to OHKO and gets 2HKOed by +2 Stone edge, and the fact that Gligar needs Spikes AND SR to OHKO a 4x weak Pokemon with a STAB attack speaks volumes about Heracross's bulk.
@Erazor - I agree, but if Gallade's ban was anything to go by, then we only need to exhibit the same arguments for Gallade being BL to prove Heracross being BL ... SD Heracross might not be devastating against offense (and I agree I'd breathe a sigh of relief if I see SD, it generally means I can for example get Mismagius in on Close Combat and kill it) but as long as it remains useful against offense it'd be BL. It's hard to argue SD Heracross isn't effective against offense, since it can switch in on stuff like Registeel or Milotic and bash things up with its 252 Attack Adamant 120 base power STAB attacks. Maybe it can't sweep teams, but as long as it opens teams up and gets KOes, who's complaining?
Wow its got some bulk, but you wasted 228 EVs, so heracross does shit all to offense.
EDIT: I don't consider teams with MiloSteel 'offense'
Do you consider this team offense then:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80709
Do you also consider it impossible for Heracross to switch into Venusaur's Leaf Storms, or Scarf Heracross Close Combats?
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80709
Do you also consider it impossible for Heracross to switch into Venusaur's Leaf Storms, or Scarf Heracross Close Combats?
Can we stop comparing Heracross to Gallade?? This issue has been discussed about a hundred times.
1) Heracross and Gallade are different enough Pokemon. Gallade held its own against offense while single-handedly annihilating stall. Heracross cannot do both at the same time. SD Heracross arguably kicks Stall even harder, but weaknesses to common-attacking types like Fire, Flying and Psychic makes it subpar against offense. Gallade had the bulk and lack of such weaknesses to not get revenged easily. Other versions of Heracross that does better against offense trades his stall-breaking abilities, which compromises him in doing so.
2) The "precedent" being used is flawed anyway. Gallade was banned because it swept the majority of teams with little to no support, not "destroying stall".
EDIT:
Try switching Heracross into Venusaur. 50% of the time, it's not pretty (Get slept or murdered by Sludge Bomb). Leaf Storm isn't Venusaur's spam move either. Heracross takes about 40.20% - 47.51% from Scarfed Close Combat too (Has some chance to get 2HKOed after SR =O). Not my idea of switching in for free.
Errr what. Theres no Milotic + Registeel combo there...
Maybe the fact that SD Hera completely shatters stall is a factor in the dearth of stall teams hmm...
I think that one of the main reasons keeping Hera from being easily BL (its offensive stats are certainly good enough) is its lack of opportunities to switch in. It has decent bulk, but it's exactly that. only decent. Its resistances (grass, bug, fighting, dark, ground) tend to hit extremely hard (Hitmonlee's CC, Donphan's EQ, Torterra's Wood Hammer), so Hera doesn't exactly come in for free. The previous offensive suspects all had either a much better set of resistances and immunities or good defensive stats in at least one category, allowing them to come in safely on a lot more than Hera can. It's pretty much agreed on that Hera can break stuff very well once it's in, but getting Hera in without taking too much damage is not that easy.
I think that one of the main reasons keeping Hera from being easily BL (its offensive stats are certainly good enough) is its lack of opportunities to switch in. It has decent bulk, but it's exactly that. only decent. Its resistances (grass, bug, fighting, dark, ground) tend to hit extremely hard (Hitmonlee's CC, Donphan's EQ, Torterra's Wood Hammer), so Hera doesn't exactly come in for free. The previous offensive suspects all had either a much better set of resistances and immunities or good defensive stats in at least one category, allowing them to come in safely on a lot more than Hera can. It's pretty much agreed on that Hera can break stuff very well once it's in, but getting Hera in without taking too much damage is not that easy.
You missed my point. Do you consider that team offense?
If you do, I named you two attacks from that team against which Heracross can switch in - there are more.
If you don't, what do you consider offense?
shrang said:
I don't see why you think Gallade and Haracross are "different enough" Pokemon.
Gallade doesn't sweep offense. There are plenty of Pokemon that're faster and not weak to Shadow Sneak. I agree it held its own, but to say it swept teams is an exaggeration. I think Gallade was banned because it destroyed stall, not for any other reason.
If you say Psychic, Fire and Flying attacks are common in the tier then you essentially imply that every type of attack except Steel and Dragon are common, making the statement quite meaningless ... besides, here're some calcs to illustrate perspective:
0 Attack Gligar Aerial Ace vs. 228/0 Heracross: 73.7% - 87.2% no KO.
252 SpA Timid Mesprit Psychic vs. 228/0 Heracross: 74.3% - 87.7% no KO, and Heracross KOs back with Megahorn.
252 Attack Adamant Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 228/0 Occa Berry Heracross: 67.9% - 79.9% no KO, and Heracross KOs back with Stone Edge.
In other words, SD Heracross isn't a monster against offensive teams, but it's not a bad Pokemon either - and it destroys stall.
If Heracross gets slept, that's fine since SD Heracross isn't the most effective Pokemon against offense anyway - so you lost one of the less important members in the team to sleep clause. Good trade if you ask me. Also:
Adamant Heracross Close Combat vs. 228/0 Heracross: 36.9% - 43.6% never a 2HKO, and you die in return from Stone Edge or even Close Combat (you'll be at -2 Def when Heracross attacks).
uragg said:
Yeah, but it's way easier to get Heracross in compared to (say) Alakazam, and it hits almost as hard. Aside from resisted attacks, Heracross can also come in on weak walls, support moves and status ...
Banedon, you're missing the point on Gallade. That Gallade could hold its own against offensive teams was crucial to its banning, since otherwise it would have been just another pokemon that fared well against one style of play, and was miserable against the other style.
And why, why are you running 228 HP on a non-Rest Talk Heracross? If you're gimping your Heracross just to beat stall teams, you're just weakening your own argument for Heracross being BL.
And why, why are you running 228 HP on a non-Rest Talk Heracross? If you're gimping your Heracross just to beat stall teams, you're just weakening your own argument for Heracross being BL.
Firstly, what is this 228/0 nonsense?? Do you realise how much weaker Heracross just became (Or are you actually implying 252 Atk and 28 Spe)?? That spread and Occa Berry sounds specialised as hell. Also, Arcanine with LO will OHKO through Occa with SR, which offense is not unlikely to be carrying.
More issues:
- Who the hell carries a Gligar on an offense team (Apart from as a lead, which we don't care about losing)?? Your calculations may be spot on, but to be honest, those Pokemon are not what you'll likely to be seeing on a typical offense team (Even Arcanine, go put LO on it).
Here's some examples of Psychic/Fire/Flying attacks that Heracross is more likely to be taking against an offense team (I'm assuming 228 HP/28 Atk/252 Spe Adamant):
Timid LO Alakazam Psychic: 114.53% - 135.75%
Timid LO Moltres Air Slash: 181.01% - 214.53%
Timid LO Moltres Fire Blast (Counting in Occa): 72.35% - 85.47% (You survive, which is nice)
Adamant LO Arcanine Flare Blitz (Counting in Occa): 87.99% - 103.91%
etc etc
Heracross is hard pressed to hold his own against all out offense, which Gallade can do without too much difficulty. This is because Gallade's two weaknesses (and lack of 4x resistances) are not anywhere near as easily exploited. The only Ghost that could really stop Gallade was Spiritomb (All the others were picked off handily by Shadow Sneak). The only Flying attacks that could OHKO a full health Gallade from an offensive team was Air Slash from Moltres or Brave Bird from Swellow. Other than that, you were hard pressed to find a Pokemon that could actually reliably defeat a full health Gallade one-on-one (Arcanine was another one).
Also, Gallade could actually like Heracross don a Scarf set to clean offense, but unlike ScarfCross, Scarf Gallade wasn't completely useless against stall because he had Trick. Basically, Gallade could do both jobs simultaneously, which Heracross finds it a lot harder to achieve.
@Erazor - I concur that Gallade could hold its own against non-stall teams was crucial to its banning, but I think Heracross easily holds its own against non-stall teams too.
Also if you argue that running 228/0 Heracross is gimping Heracross just to beat stall teams then I don't see why running Taunt WoW Mismagius isn't gimping Mismagius just to beat stall ...
@shrang - I do intend 228 HP, 252 Attack and the rest into Speed. It's optimized to beat stall, yes, but it's also intended to let Heracross take on offense (that's what the calcs are aiming to show). As for the calcs,
The calculation vs. 0 Attack Gligar is aimed at stall teams.
Moltres's Fire Blast vs. Heracross is irrelevant, because if Moltres is already in against Heracross it has no reason not to Air Slash (more accurate), while Heracross cannot switch into Moltres because it'll be outsped and KOed next turn. The real question is whether Moltres can switch into Heracross and get away with it. Clearly if Heracross uses Stone Edge, Moltres dies, but that's not very likely with two stronger STABs. If Stealth Rock isn't up, Moltres easily survives and KOes back. If Stealth Rock is up however, here's 252 Attack Adamant Heracross Close Combat vs. 0/0 Moltres: 35.5% - 42.1%. This puts Moltres in a quandary; if it Roosts it dies if Heracross attacks again, but if it attacks it'll be quite dead even if it gets the KO - it may even die to its own LO recoil on the same turn (and it can't switch out).
As for Arcanine ... Close Combat vs. 0/0 Arcanine: 78.5% - 92.5%, a clean OHKO with SR. Arcanine is forced to run Intimidate, and -1 Close Combat vs. 0/0 Arcanine is still 52.6% - 62%. This is far from a safe switch-in, as you argued yourself about Heracross switching into another Heracross's Close Combat. Furthermore, if Arcanine now uses Flare Blitz, it kills itself, especially if it's using Life Orb.
Finally there's Alakazam. Alakazam certainly has the strongest psychic attacks in the tier, but Heracross's Close Combat vs. 4/0 Alakazam is still 77.4% - 91.7%. There's a chance to KO with Stealth Rock, guaranteed chance to OHKO after one round of Life Orb recoil. Alakazam is not only not getting in for free, in fact it may very well die. And that's not counting the possibility of Heracross using Stone Edge or (gulp) Megahorn.
I think you make good points about Gallade's access to Trick and how it's hard to take on a full health Gallade 1v1, but I also think you understate the number of Gallade checks (Sceptile outspeeds and KOs with Specs Leaf Storm, for example), and I think Heracross's other advantages - it has a 120 BP secondary STAB as well as more balanced bulk for example - more than compensate. It's not like Heracross has no chance to switch in against offense, and it's not like after switching in it can't deal damage. Sure it won't be getting any sweeps, but as long as it's getting KOes I'm not complaining.
Also if you argue that running 228/0 Heracross is gimping Heracross just to beat stall teams then I don't see why running Taunt WoW Mismagius isn't gimping Mismagius just to beat stall ...
@shrang - I do intend 228 HP, 252 Attack and the rest into Speed. It's optimized to beat stall, yes, but it's also intended to let Heracross take on offense (that's what the calcs are aiming to show). As for the calcs,
The calculation vs. 0 Attack Gligar is aimed at stall teams.
Moltres's Fire Blast vs. Heracross is irrelevant, because if Moltres is already in against Heracross it has no reason not to Air Slash (more accurate), while Heracross cannot switch into Moltres because it'll be outsped and KOed next turn. The real question is whether Moltres can switch into Heracross and get away with it. Clearly if Heracross uses Stone Edge, Moltres dies, but that's not very likely with two stronger STABs. If Stealth Rock isn't up, Moltres easily survives and KOes back. If Stealth Rock is up however, here's 252 Attack Adamant Heracross Close Combat vs. 0/0 Moltres: 35.5% - 42.1%. This puts Moltres in a quandary; if it Roosts it dies if Heracross attacks again, but if it attacks it'll be quite dead even if it gets the KO - it may even die to its own LO recoil on the same turn (and it can't switch out).
As for Arcanine ... Close Combat vs. 0/0 Arcanine: 78.5% - 92.5%, a clean OHKO with SR. Arcanine is forced to run Intimidate, and -1 Close Combat vs. 0/0 Arcanine is still 52.6% - 62%. This is far from a safe switch-in, as you argued yourself about Heracross switching into another Heracross's Close Combat. Furthermore, if Arcanine now uses Flare Blitz, it kills itself, especially if it's using Life Orb.
Finally there's Alakazam. Alakazam certainly has the strongest psychic attacks in the tier, but Heracross's Close Combat vs. 4/0 Alakazam is still 77.4% - 91.7%. There's a chance to KO with Stealth Rock, guaranteed chance to OHKO after one round of Life Orb recoil. Alakazam is not only not getting in for free, in fact it may very well die. And that's not counting the possibility of Heracross using Stone Edge or (gulp) Megahorn.
I think you make good points about Gallade's access to Trick and how it's hard to take on a full health Gallade 1v1, but I also think you understate the number of Gallade checks (Sceptile outspeeds and KOs with Specs Leaf Storm, for example), and I think Heracross's other advantages - it has a 120 BP secondary STAB as well as more balanced bulk for example - more than compensate. It's not like Heracross has no chance to switch in against offense, and it's not like after switching in it can't deal damage. Sure it won't be getting any sweeps, but as long as it's getting KOes I'm not complaining.
SD Heracross can hold its own versus offense as well as any Heracross out there. The only difference is that you can just spam your attacks instead of setting up, and you will often get a kill. With all these Pokemon like Donphan and Registeel working as pivots, Heracross has little trouble getting in and pummeling stuff. Only use Swords Dance versus stall or offense that is weakened sufficiently.
So we had Heracross now for 2 month in the UU department.
When can we boot him out finally? I definitely despise this new Hera-centric metagame (most of my fights right now are decided by Heracross) and i long desperately for the metagame we had before.
How long will i still (have to?) suffer under Heracross relentless assaults?
When can we boot him out finally? I definitely despise this new Hera-centric metagame (most of my fights right now are decided by Heracross) and i long desperately for the metagame we had before.
How long will i still (have to?) suffer under Heracross relentless assaults?
Did you even read the rest of the thread? Although there are many people who agree with you, just as many (myself included) think it is balanced within the uu metagame.
To more directly answer your question, to my knowledge, suspect testing for heracross hasn't even begun yet, probably because smogon has no official server at the moment.
A few random thoughts on random Pokemon ...
Ludicolo - Come to think about it it's really rather surprising that I've seen few Ludicolo used as a standalone sweeper. Why not? It sets up on Milotic, and it does so in a way that Milotic cannot Haze. It uses a boosting move more powerful than Dragon Dance. It has superb coverage. It brings the rain, which means Venusaur, one of Ludicolo's primary checks, cannot Synthesis nearly as well. Rain provides cover against random weather teams as well (such as Blizzspam), and your own RD Ludicolo works great against other rain teams.
And yet I see Feraligatr as a sweeper but no Ludicolo outside of rain teams ... why?
Uxie - so we were discussing CM Uxie a few pages ago, when I figured CM Uxie is nowhere spectacular. Then I arrived at the same Pokemon from a completely different way. I was looking for a Pokemon that could check Heracross while still having enough defenses to switch into Close Combat, and voila, there's Uxie. Crucially, Uxie is faster than all non-Scarf Heracross. While Heracross with Rest as well as non-Scarf Heracross with Megahorn aren't normally wouldn't be threatened by Uxie switching in, now they have to contend with a faster, super-effective, STAB attack hitting on the side not covered by Bulk Up. While Uxie's offenses are not impressive, 252 SpA Psychic is still 71.5% - 84.1% vs 4/0 Heracross. If Uxie successfully switches into Scarf Heracross's Close Combat, it can even put up a Sub safely with enough HP EVs. As a bonus, Uxie outspeeds all other Fighting types bar Primeape as well, from Toxicroak to Hitmontop / lee / chan to Hariyama to Blaziken (which has seen some increase in usage it would seem, probably because of the 4x resist to Megahorn). Psychic also hits Poison types super-effectively, quite significant since Poison types rose in usage to counter Heracross.
However, when I used Uxie I rarely got the chance to Calm Mind. In fact the only common thing Uxie can safely CM on appears to be Milotic. Besides, +1 Uxie can't really sweep teams. It checks Fighting Pokemon well enough, but it can't sweep teams. I think instead of CM, Uxie's better off running some other move - Toxic (so it still beats Milotic), Thunder Wave (offense seems to be the most common playstyle, so this helps; Ground types can be hit with Energy Ball / Grass Knot), Stealth Rock, or U-turn.
I hope the testing period starts soon, the UU ladders have been very empty.
Ludicolo - Come to think about it it's really rather surprising that I've seen few Ludicolo used as a standalone sweeper. Why not? It sets up on Milotic, and it does so in a way that Milotic cannot Haze. It uses a boosting move more powerful than Dragon Dance. It has superb coverage. It brings the rain, which means Venusaur, one of Ludicolo's primary checks, cannot Synthesis nearly as well. Rain provides cover against random weather teams as well (such as Blizzspam), and your own RD Ludicolo works great against other rain teams.
And yet I see Feraligatr as a sweeper but no Ludicolo outside of rain teams ... why?
Uxie - so we were discussing CM Uxie a few pages ago, when I figured CM Uxie is nowhere spectacular. Then I arrived at the same Pokemon from a completely different way. I was looking for a Pokemon that could check Heracross while still having enough defenses to switch into Close Combat, and voila, there's Uxie. Crucially, Uxie is faster than all non-Scarf Heracross. While Heracross with Rest as well as non-Scarf Heracross with Megahorn aren't normally wouldn't be threatened by Uxie switching in, now they have to contend with a faster, super-effective, STAB attack hitting on the side not covered by Bulk Up. While Uxie's offenses are not impressive, 252 SpA Psychic is still 71.5% - 84.1% vs 4/0 Heracross. If Uxie successfully switches into Scarf Heracross's Close Combat, it can even put up a Sub safely with enough HP EVs. As a bonus, Uxie outspeeds all other Fighting types bar Primeape as well, from Toxicroak to Hitmontop / lee / chan to Hariyama to Blaziken (which has seen some increase in usage it would seem, probably because of the 4x resist to Megahorn). Psychic also hits Poison types super-effectively, quite significant since Poison types rose in usage to counter Heracross.
However, when I used Uxie I rarely got the chance to Calm Mind. In fact the only common thing Uxie can safely CM on appears to be Milotic. Besides, +1 Uxie can't really sweep teams. It checks Fighting Pokemon well enough, but it can't sweep teams. I think instead of CM, Uxie's better off running some other move - Toxic (so it still beats Milotic), Thunder Wave (offense seems to be the most common playstyle, so this helps; Ground types can be hit with Energy Ball / Grass Knot), Stealth Rock, or U-turn.
I hope the testing period starts soon, the UU ladders have been very empty.
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