np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition

[Of Moose & Men]

You're kidding yourself if you think Starmie wouldn't be useful again without Aegislash. It was/is the best spinner in the game in terms of beating spin blockers, but Aegi ruined that. Exca's role literally only overlaps in that their both spinners. Outside of that they are nothing alike whatsoever.

That being said, banning aegi to bring back starmie is stupid and shouldn't be used as an argument. Not even really sure why people are still posting here, considering the vote is already basically done.

Didn't quite say that.
There's just more problems for it than Aegislash, not just in Sucker Punch and Knock off. However, on that note, I've been saying the same thing, and ended up giving in, as we can see.

The way I see it, we can still discuss why the decisions that were made were made, and go back and forth on them. We've got a couple days to see what the results are.

 

[Sun King]

Halcyon. Okay maybe I was a bit harsh in saying it's not viable, but I still think Starmie is going to have a lot of trouble in this metagame--competing with Exca, Defog, and having to deal with the dark types that just got a buff. I don't think Bisharp will go down all that much, so he'll still be a great deterrent to hazard removal.

Also, you are right about it being the end of the voting time. I think most--if not all--of the qualified voters have made up their mind. Nothing people have been saying in the last 10 or so pages has been new--it's all just reiteration at this point.

 

[Srn]

I mean starmie would have been everywhere on the suspect ladder if the only thing holding it back was aegislash like you guys are saying, but I did not see a single fucking starmie on the entire ladder lol. Seeing as how people weren't just ready to use a starmie team like they were to use mega cham/mega hera/mega garde team, I don't think starmie would see much usage even if aegis were to be banned :/

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Starmie is unviable because of how outclassed it is.. the rain nerf (bare w/ me), and the dark type buff.

It was a good pokemon last gen because it could punish rain teams with it's own hydro pump or even thunder, this made it hard to spin block as psyshock murdered gengar, and thunder/T-bolt ruined jellicent.. the biggest spin blocker out there. It also was a decent check to non HP ghost/bug keldeo. This gen those pokemon are less seen (bar gengar) and defog got a huge buff.. Why would I want a pokemon that's easily spin blocked, not that entirely fast, and not that entirely powerful.. over something like excadrill which can deal with spin blockers, high attack.., or the latis for that matter who have more power, still fast speed, are versitile (Never know if it's safe to pursuit trap with scizor) and cannot be blocked by anything with defog while being able to switch in more easily.. even mandibuzz has recovery and good bulk with defog and knock off to cripple things without being a pursuit trapped dead weight pokemon, and while aegislash may have slightly made mandibuzz more viable, I doubt we'll see the end of mandibuzz with him gone anyway as checking him was only an option.

Aegislash is the least of starmie's problems.. if you want starmie to be the best hazards remover might as well suspect the entire tier.

Are we even talking about aegislash anymore or just our favorite pokemon being blocked by something again?

 

[Rosen]

I mean starmie would have been everywhere on the suspect ladder if the only thing holding it back was aegislash like you guys are saying, but I did not see a single fucking starmie on the entire ladder lol. Seeing as how people weren't just ready to use a starmie team like they were to use mega cham/mega hera/mega garde team, I don't think starmie would see much usage even if aegis were to be banned :/

Not with that attitide.

Also RoyalDispenser there are so many things wrong with your post I don't even know where to begin. Mods, I'm going to go ahead and reserve this post for ranting at a later time.

And Srn, probs cuz people aren't used to using Starmie again. Once Aegi is gone for good and team experimenting begins afresh, I predict Starmie usage will rise in time. The only spinblocker it couldn't beat is now gone and 1v1 it beats Exca out of sand, so I'm pretty hype for Starmie tbh

Edit: just realized this post contains obscene amounts of speculation, sorry. Replace 'once' with 'if' and we should be good

 

[Wargreymon]

Why are people saying that listing pokemon aegislash stops from being viable is not a reason to ban? Isn't that the very definition of over-centralizing? Or if not the definition, at least it's a part of what makes something over-centralizing.

Say you're building a team and you want to use a pokemon for a certain role but it dawns on you that aegislash is absolutely everywhere and that pokemon cannot function in that role with aegislash being so common, meaning you're forced to use a different pokemon for role simply so that you can compete against aegislash. Isn't that limiting team building and therefore showing that aegislash is over-centralizing?
I don't understand how listing pokemon that it stops from being useful is not a valid reason for a ban. That's basically a huge part of over-centralization is it not?

Please note that I am indifferent on the aegislash suspect test, I didn't ladder to make reqs and therefore I'm cool with the result either way, I am genuinely curious because I have seen a lot of different definitions of over-centralizing. Surely limiting team building is the biggest factor in over-centraliziation?
Also note that I am not strictly referring to starmie or forretress or any of the pokemon mentioned previously, I'm just speaking in general about all pokemon.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Why are people saying that listing pokemon aegislash stops from being viable is not a reason to ban? Isn't that the very definition of over-centralizing? Or if not the definition, at least it's a part of what makes something over-centralizing.

I have a big problem with Keldeo sometimes depending on its item (like many teams). Does that mean we should suspect test it? No, another Pokemon's viability (or in this case, lack there of) in the tier because of this 'mon cannot be used as means for a ban.

 

[Wumgum]

I don't understand how listing pokemon that it stops from being useful is not a valid reason for a ban. That's basically a huge part of over-centralization is it not?

centralization ≠ over-centralization

Every top tier threat causes centralization to some degree the question is: how much is too much?
But this is a question everyone has to answer for themselves.

 

[Maximanz]

I have a big problem with Keldeo sometimes depending on its item (like many teams). Does that mean we should suspect test it? No, another Pokemon's viability (or in this case, lack there of) in the tier because of this 'mon cannot be used as means for a ban.

Where does keldeo have to do with this? Is it overcentralized in your opinion? I mean sure keldeo is centralized but its not over centralized because theres so many ways to deal with it. I think keldeo is fine in ou because theres so many counters for it. It has 5 weaknesses. I mean mega venusaur crushed is and mega venusaur isnt there just to beat keldeo. Talonflame crushes it and its there for other things. But Aegislash doesnt have much weaknesses, its way too big a deal in a battle and its not dealt with casually, like some pokemon are. It is way overcentralized because theres about two pokemon who can really counter this thing those being mandibuzz and bisharp, He's rendered so much pokemon useless. (Keldeo hasnt i don't know where you got keldeo from???) and if thats not over-centralization i dont know what is.

 

[I_am_A_Garchomp]

Where does keldeo have to do with this? Is it overcentralized in your opinion? I mean sure keldeo is centralized but its not over centralized because theres so many ways to deal with it. I think keldeo is fine in ou because theres so many counters for it. It has 5 weaknesses. I mean mega venusaur crushed is and mega venusaur isnt there just to beat keldeo. Talonflame crushes it and its there for other things. But Aegislash doesnt have much weaknesses, its way too big a deal in a battle and its not dealt with casually, like some pokemon are. It is way overcentralized because theres about two pokemon who can really counter this thing those being mandibuzz and bisharp, He's rendered so much pokemon useless. (Keldeo hasnt i don't know where you got keldeo from???) and if thats not over-centralization i dont know what is.

He was just giving an example to Wargreymon about the difference between centralization and over-centralization.

 

[Maximanz]

He was just giving an example to Wargreymon about the difference between centralization and over-centralization.

He gave quite a bad example then, keldeo can be checked and countered by many things, while aegislash can not be.

 

[Prince Phantom]

I know the pokemon's viability in ubers doesnt effect its chances of being banned, but just to get people thinking, aegi could do well as an ubers pokemon. ive already seen him on many ubers teams and he can pose a serious threat to alot of pokemon in the tier. and unboosted shadow claw can OHKO alot of the psychic types in the tier (barring lugia) and his other coverage moves deal alot of damage to many of the pokemon in the tier. if you choose to go the route of a special aegi (most people do) your safe from will o wisp users and still get alot of damage on most pokemon. not to mention, it IS the bane of xernes' existance

 

[Rosen]

He gave quite a bad example then, keldeo can be checked and countered by many things, while aegislash can not be.

dood it was literally solely for the purpose of explaining the definition of overcentralizing, calm yo self

 

[LT. SURGE111]

Can we discuss how brutal excadrill is when going against Aegi?? His scarfed set does so much work. He can sweep if proper switching is done and does great damage to Aegi, alone. He can soak some damage as well even though he isn't the most defensive.

 

[Akistis]

Aegislash has big advantage is that it is widely used in OR whether the large number of set he has, against the fact that many pokémon yet he also quite default against balances advantage started to turn on 1 usually strikes 2 anticipating well it is not hard to have the advantage playing on the boost and moves carefully then we can remember that king shield does not block attacks status capabilities as Will o wisp that will very quickly lose badly because 12% of its HP per turn it can quickly cripple the especially if it takes a turn on knowing that two king shield then appear in 90% of sets (for special version) and if it is mixed halves shadow sneak or iron head see sacred sword then it has 4 weaknesses among these four weaknesses there are 3 very common as his weakness to fire type and ground or the darkness weakness (I pensesurtout to knock off) knock off once used on left or it loses its purpose and become very difficult to play well + it against a lot of Pokémon he has also a good package that against as: Bisharp, Mandibuzz, Garchomp, Landorus T and A, Excadrill, Charizard X and Y, Mega Venusaur leech seed + synthesis, he lost his duel against Pokémon in play very kind conkeldurr due to knock off if Scizor is not choice he can win are also duel with Knock off pokemon like Rotom Wash are not afraid to swing it Will O Wisp and many others .. even mega Medicham arrives the counter if he anticipates his arrival into play with fire punch! Then the second round and another fire punch KO after it if it is criticized for centralizing the metagame could be said of X Charizard, Venusaur mega, mega Mawile, Tyranitar, and Landorus Talonflame to be equally formidable and centralize then also the metagame for BS 720 to stop messing Kyurem black has also raise this BS is therefore not an argument and I'm not talking about all other users mega gem so finally I think it does not deserve the ban has hugely benefit my benefits are easily outweighed by its shortcomings for me who wants to know the ban simply not the counter for my part I play Aegislash and it is not he who saves me all my battles he has his role well it is effective but is not doing better than my others it is not abused And anyway there are much more dangerous Pokémon him as Mawile Mega Landorus A Charizard X etc. ..

I am against the ban of Aegislash!

PS: Sorry if my English is very bad I'm French and I'm not very good with this language .. :/

 

[Rosen]

Aegislash has big advantage is that it is widely used in OR whether the large number of set he has, against the fact that many pokémon yet he also quite default against balances advantage started to turn on 1 usually strikes 2 anticipating well it is not hard to have the advantage playing on the boost and moves carefully then we can remember that king shield does not block attacks status capabilities as Will o wisp that will very quickly lose badly because 12% of its HP per turn it can quickly cripple the especially if it takes a turn on knowing that two king shield then appear in 90% of sets (for special version) and if it is mixed halves shadow sneak or iron head see sacred sword then it has 4 weaknesses among these four weaknesses there are 3 very common as his weakness to fire type and ground or the darkness weakness (I pensesurtout to knock off) knock off once used on left or it loses its purpose and become very difficult to play well + it against a lot of Pokémon he has also a good package that against as: Bisharp, Mandibuzz, Garchomp, Landorus T and A, Excadrill, Charizard X and Y, Mega Venusaur leech seed + synthesis, he lost his duel against Pokémon in play very kind conkeldurr due to knock off if Scizor is not choice he can win are also duel with Knock off pokemon like Rotom Wash are not afraid to swing it Will O Wisp and many others .. even mega Medicham arrives the counter if he anticipates his arrival into play with fire punch! Then the second round and another fire punch KO after it if it is criticized for centralizing the metagame could be said of X Charizard, Venusaur mega, mega Mawile, Tyranitar, and Landorus Talonflame to be equally formidable and centralize then also the metagame for BS 720 to stop messing Kyurem black has also raise this BS is therefore not an argument and I'm not talking about all other users mega gem so finally I think it does not deserve the ban has hugely benefit my benefits are easily outweighed by its shortcomings for me who wants to know the ban simply not the counter for my part I play Aegislash and it is not he who saves me all my battles he has his role well it is effective but is not doing better than my others it is not abused And anyway there are much more dangerous Pokémon him as Mawile Mega Landorus A Charizard X etc. ..

I am against the ban of Aegislash!

PS: Sorry if my English is very bad I'm French and I'm not very good with this language .. :/

Do not worry yourself with the lack of clarity at this point in time. Us native English speakers have been posting plenty regarding this subject when it really makes no difference whatsoever regarding the outcome of the suspect test and are just complaining because we can.

What I gathered from this: we should keep Aegislash cuz it's weak to knock off and status and has a similar bst to Cube which isn't banned. Yeah I agree with 0% of that but w/e, real talk tho I'd love it if Cube got banned. I don't actually havr a reason, I just fucken hate it.

 

[uberheracross]

I for one find the arguments that Aegislash alone causes the exclusion of certain Pokemon from the meta to be laughable. Aegislash itself can do little to Mandibuzz, Talonflame falls to Rotom and Charizard X can't do much to Quagsire, so why do these pokemon still see use? Because they have relevance in regards to the rest of the meta, Starmie, Bronzong and Co's drop in use cannot solely be assigned to Aegislash alone they simply don't meet the needs of the current meta and as such fall behind.

 

[Rosen]

I for one find the arguments that Aegislash alone causes the exclusion of certain Pokemon from the meta to be laughable. Aegislash itself can do little to Mandibuzz, Talonflame falls to Rotom and Charizard X can't do much to Quagsire, so why do these pokemon still see use? Because they have relevance in regards to the rest of the meta, Starmie, Bronzong and Co's drop in use cannot solely be assigned to Aegislash alone they simply don't meet the needs of the current meta and as such fall behind.

Yeah no, this skims over the issue while providing incredibly weak examples. Starmie is a much more useful poke than Mandi, but Mandi checks most Aegi variamts so bye bye Starmie. Also Levitate Bronzong is literally the best counter to Sand Rush Excadrill, so to say it doesn't have uses is bs when they all do, but don't warrant much of a team slot because Aegislash fingerpops their assholes all day long.

 

[Rosen]

Did Aegislash really cause pokemon to drop tiers? I mean it has some nice foes in Bisharp, Mandibuzz, Charizard X and Y, MMawile, Mvenu, Landorus T, Excadrill, Garchomp, Mamoswine, Pyroar (not ou afaik), Diggersby, Clefable and Quagsire. So I'm wondering what reason there is to ban Aegislash. If he truly over centralizes the game and causes pokemon to drop out of OU solely by his own presence, then I wonder about people's opinion concerning Rotom-W.

Nigga u for real

Clefable sure as hell ain't an Aegis check, Quagsire dies to Shadow Ball and SubToxic, Pyroar can't kill SDef variants and dies to Sacred Sword, and the others it all depends on the set. Depends on the set. Which has has very, very many of.

 

[TengenAce]

Nigga u for real

Clefable sure as hell ain't an Aegis check, Quagsire dies to Shadow Ball and SubToxic, Pyroar can't kill SDef variants and dies to Sacred Sword, and the others it all depends on the set. Depends on the set. Which has has very, very many of.

Quagsire outslows Aegislash by a large amount. It'll OHKO Aegislash in blade form with EQ if it tries to Shadow Ball.
As for SubToxic, minimum invested EQ from Quag onto Aegislash in standard shield spread does 40% at the very minimum. It'll beat Aegislash 1v1, assuming both are at full health.
However, the toxic damage will rack up on Quag, so it does take a heavy toll. But the lefties recovery from the sub turn and KS turn will make Aegislash sit somewhat comfortably while Quag is racking up damage. So if Quag wins this case, it's barely.

 

[M36Lucas]

Can we discuss how brutal excadrill is when going against Aegi?? His scarfed set does so much work. It can sweep if proper switching is done and does great damage to excadrill. He can soak some damage as well

252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 362-428 (100 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Aegislash OHKO's Excadrill.
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 260-308 (80.2 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Sure, Excadrill does put in a lot of work against Aegislash, but just not enough. Close to OHKO, but it still isn't an ohko.. :P And if it's not enough, a weakness policy can active and Shadow Sneak will now have a base 80 damage w/ priority. Not saying that everybody runs Weakness Policy and Sacred Sword, but that is one (of many) amazing sets on Aegislash
EDIT: Air Balloon is the 3rd most used item on Aegislash, so yeah :P

 

[koista12]

252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 362-428 (100 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Aegislash OHKO's Excadrill.
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 260-308 (80.2 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Sure, Excadrill does put in a lot of work against Aegislash, but just not enough. Close to OHKO, but it still isn't an ohko.. :P And if it's not enough, a weakness policy can active and Shadow Sneak will now have a base 80 damage w/ priority. Not saying that everybody runs Weakness Policy and Sacred Sword, but that is one (of many) amazing sets on Aegislash

I don't know anyone who runs adamant mold breaker excadrill. I know I run jolly, because most mold breaker excadrills are scarfed, and jolly outspeeds so much stuff.

Most adamant excadrills are sand rush variants, which use a life orb, making that a sure OHKO.

just me nitpicking I guess.

 

[Rosen]

Quagsire outslows Aegislash by a large amount. It'll OHKO Aegislash in blade form with EQ if it tries to Shadow Ball.
As for SubToxic, minimum invested EQ from Quag onto Aegislash in standard shield spread does 40% at the very minimum. It'll beat Aegislash 1v1, assuming both are at full health.
However, the toxic damage will rack up on Quag, so it does take a heavy toll. But the lefties recovery from the sub turn and KS turn will make Aegislash sit somewhat comfortably while Quag is racking up damage. So if Quag wins this case, it's barely.

All this would be absolutely true but let us not forget Air Balloon Aegislash is a thing

 

[M36Lucas]

I don't know anyone who runs adamant mold breaker excadrill. I know I run jolly, because most mold breaker excadrills are scarfed, and jolly outspeeds so much stuff.

Most adamant excadrills are sand rush variants, which use a life orb, making that a sure OHKO.

just me nitpicking I guess.

The jolly part is only helping my case if you're saying that most people use jolly.. Obviously jolly will do less than adamant, (not too much difference, but still :P)
Jolly 252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 236-282 (72.8 - 87%)
61.7% of Excadrills have mold breaker according to the usage stats.
Also, most of the Sand Rush variants typically use air balloon. Life orb is used a bit, but not too much.

Sorry for kind of sounding like an asshole there, just pointing out some facts :P

 

[RufflesPro]

I don't know anyone who runs adamant mold breaker excadrill. I know I run jolly, because most mold breaker excadrills are scarfed, and jolly outspeeds so much stuff.

Most adamant excadrills are sand rush variants, which use a life orb, making that a sure OHKO.

just me nitpicking I guess.

Very few people run Jolly Excadrill, Jolly is only a little more viable than Adamant on Scarf because scarf timid tran and opposing scarf drills. But there's a lot of Excas that are not sand rush and run Adamant, AV and Balloon are an example of that, and actually a good amount of sand rush are air balloon but yeah all sand rush are adamant and a good number uses life orb.


Starmie subject: the reason Starmie wasn't used that much is because people overhype Bisharp, "hey use starmie, there's no aegislash" "yeah but Bisharp is everywhere" and think starmie is deemed unviable (even with aegi gone) simply because Bisharp exists which is completely wrong. And because the claim it's weak to talonflame but I disagree bulky sets can survive and OHKO back with Sclad