Gen 6 np: XY Ubers Gengarite Suspect Test - In The Shadows [READ POST #71]

[shrang]

I'm not advocating for a Shadow Tag clause because I can't handle it myself. I'm pushing for one because, above all else, I care about the ubers metagame that I have fallen in love with and about the ubers community that I want to share a beautifully deep and expressive game with.

And I care in the sense that banning Shadow Tag would destroy the one principle of Ubers that I believe inviolate. Banning Shadow Tag destroys the integrity of Ubers. You might have the illusion that the metagame might be better without it, but there's no point in playing Ubers just because there's something that remotely unadaptable. You might think KFC would taste better if we introduced beef into the menu, but I care that KFC stays with chicken.

It is the same. The difference is whether or not you recognize the illusion of choice as an actual choice. Opting to use Shed Shell on every one of your pokemon to avoid Shadow Tag may seem like you have a choice but, in reality, the extremely terrible team that you would be using has an extremely diminished shot at winning in comparision to just yoloing it and hoping you don't get fucked over by the Shadow Tag matchup. The illusion of choice is a very valuable concept in game design to help compensate for the physical limitations of video games and, yet, still give the player the impression that he is in control of their actions and that those actions have meaning. However, it's not very useful in a competitive environment like we have here where the players explicitly search every nook and cranny of the game's design to find the options that have the highest rate of success. The option that has the highest rate of success is trying to bullshit your opponent in the team builder with Shadow Tag. I think that has been pretty clearly demonstrated by the arguments of the XY ubers metagame's best players and in its tournaments so I won't repeat it.

Actually, it's not the same. I didn't say anything about Shed Shell or making your team more Shadow Tag-proof. I said that you are in the same position to use Shadow Tag against your opponent in exactly the same way. My definition of uncompetitive is that the game strategy or aspect is inherently discriminatory, as explained in the luck example. Luck discriminates between games and gives one person an advantage that the other person cannot retaliate in return. Shadow Tag, on the other hand, is free to be used by both sides. My definition of uncompetitive has nothing to do with choice but fairness that both players get the same tools to operate with.

Your argument is fallacious because you automatically assume that when both players have Shadow Tag, the best player wins. This becomes a circular argument where you demonstrate it's a skilled based strategy because you have already assumed in your argument demonstrating so that it is skill based. The reality is that when two tag players play eachother, the one with the better team matchup will win consistently because it takes zero skill to apply your shadow tag strategy before the other guy when it already matchup in it's favor starting the game off with that player in the favorable position to do so. You using Shadow Tag abuser of your own doesn't allow you to reverse the ineeitable anymore than you could have without it. You just give yourself a shot at being that guy with the ez team matchup win instead of your opponent.

Look at the bolded part. Tell me why we are talking about banning ST again. You just recognised the problem, and it's not Shadow Tag. What you're telling me, is that team matchup make it difficult for skilled players to beat not-so-skilled players, and your solution is to ban Shadow Tag. That totally makes sense o_0. I acknowledge that Shadow Tag exacerbates the problem, but if it is like you say, the main problem is not Shadow Tag but team matchups themselves (which again, like I said, no amount of banning will ever fix). Again it's like blaming violent video games for mass shootings. Sure, those shooters might desensitise the population to violence, so let's ban those to stop our mass shootings. Never mind the socioeconomic problems, high rates of depression, easy access to guns and poor parenting habits, it's totally the video games and banning those video games is totally the answer. If you don't like the video games example, let's do another one. It's like taxing alcopops to help against Australia's binging problem. Never mind the vodkas and spirits and all the other drinks, never mind the actual binge drinking culture, we'd solve the problem by taxing alcopops. Good idea.

Yes, you are free to choose your own actions as long as there isn't bullshit like Shadow Tag. Certain choices may imply more risk but sometimes those higher risk choices are the right choices because of there higher risk and the fact the cover options the lower risk choice does not. There is no objectively right choice when you are playing against another human being and his choices impact yours as much as your impact his. That illusion of choice occurs when you remove the power of choice from the other player with bullshit like Shadow Tag.

By what you have described, your choices are already limited as it is, so do you actually have the ability to "follow a law that you set yourself" (autonomy)? Of course not. Sure, you have one or two options that you realistically choose from, but how much of a choice is that? Does it matter whether you vote for Republicans or Democrats when your government is taken over by corporate and military oligarchs? You might think you do, but there really isn't change how things are going to be run. I'm not going to berate this point since your definition of uncompetitive includes choice and mine doesn't so we can agree to disagree here.

See earlier points. It's not about fair, it's about expressing ourselves and our abillities through the power of choice.

Also your video game example is bullshit because we can show the direct impact Shadow Tag which you can't do with video games and shooting.

What direct impact? All you've made clear is that Shadow Tag makes things worse, but isn't the actual problem. You acknowledged that yourself just a few lines ago!

No we aren't trying to completely remove team matchup, just remove an element that pushed that factor to the point of eliminating that power of choice from the player. Yes, we have demonstrated that by all sorts of talks about the metagame based on extensive experience and logic. Unless you want us to speculate on what a Tag free metagame would look like? We could run a tournament for that!

But the problem is still there. Even if you have no Shadow Tag, team matchup still wrecks you whether you like it or not. A person who isn't as good as you can still beat you if they counterteam you whether Gengar is around or not. You might think you have extra choice in the matter, but the result is still the same - they have a higher chance of beating you than vice versa. What would banning Shadow Tag achieve in that situation?

 

[Thugly Duckling]

If it looks, walks and quacks like a duck, I'm going to call it a duck.

Nice wordplay shrang :]

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But again I say as extension of my post on page two, the suspect test should be further narrowed down to three suspects that are Wobbuffet, Gothitelle, and the Gengarite instead of the more broad ban over Shadow Tag as a whole, with Gothitelle and the Gengarite as the main suspects for severely limiting teambuilding to the Hyper Offense archetype.

 

[Emperor]

Mega Gengar needs that one turn to mevo

While this is true, it's not incredibly hard to just send in Mega Gengar on something that's basically dead and get your Mega Turn that way.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uberssuspecttest-145339583 (see turn 7)

Regardless, it seems the problem here is that Mega Gengar (and shadow tag) is not luck based. It also doesn't limit the gameplay in a sense that endless battles did since Funbro etc. just made it so nobody can win while Mega Gengar, Wobb, and Goth "guarantee" kills. Personally, I don't see "guaranteed" kills as a particularly new thing in Ubers since that's been the name of the game for so long (and especially now with Xerneas everywhere.) What's different is that Shadow Taggers kill through support and not through raw power. They're rarely the one to sweep your team.

That being said, shrang might have a point about team structure. The person with the better team almost always wins in Ubers. That's just sort of how it works. It's like the Groudon vs Kyogre scenario. Sure, I could pick Groudon if I'm feeling fancy. But, I'll pick Kyogre since it's far better at killing things and can make better use of its weather. Same holds true for Taggers. You could pick something else. That's on you. But the support a Tagger can give is much better than the average Uber support. It seems more of a case of Overpowered Support instead of Uncompetitive Support to me.

 

[haxiom]

Here are my revised thoughts now, after reading a bit.

I feel like Gengar itself isn't really that uncompetitive, I agree with a lot of other players that the other stag users are much more so. The turn it takes to mega evolve throws in a lot more skill, since it is playable around, unlike the other stag users. I feel like it is broken, but not uncompetitive. On the other hand, Gothitelle isn't that broken, I mean it's legal in OU and not dominant even there, but it is uncompetitive- no competitive game should be determined at team preview and that is often what Gothitelle does. I'm either banning it all, competitive and uncompetitive, broken and not broken, or banning none. If I could just ban Goth, I'd definitely consider it, even maybe banning stag as a whole, but since we have to ban Gengar first to get to that, I'm torn.

 

[Thugly Duckling]

The person with the better team almost always wins in Ubers. That's just sort of how it works

And the person with the better team, is the person with a more well supported Mega-Gengar, and that is simply what has decided Ubers matches for months now.

 

[Emperor]

And the person with the better team, is the person with a more well supported Mega-Gengar, and that is simply what has decided Ubers matches for months now.

The question is, would the problem of having every team be a "Mega-Gengar team" be any different than a "Kyogre team" or a "Xerneas team" during each of their primes in ubers. From where I'm standing, each of them simply cause the same problem in a different way. They're all so overpowered that they influence how you play Ubers. And in Ubers, that's fine.

 

[Thugly Duckling]

The question is, would the problem of having every team be a "Mega-Gengar team" be any different than a "Kyogre team" or a "Xerneas team" during each of their primes in ubers. From where I'm standing, each of them simply cause the same problem in a different way. They're all so overpowered that they influence how you play Ubers. And in Ubers, that's fine.

IMO, it wouldn't be any different just because how overcentralizing the Metagame is. It's a simple reality, and that is that S Rank Pokemon need to be prepared for. Kyogre must be prepared for or it will drown your team with Water Spout unless you carry a Gastrodon or Palkia. Xerneas (although uncounterable) requires preparation because if you give it a single turn with no prior damage, it will sweep your team in a heartbeat unless you run Chople Berry Heatran or something absurd like that (Yes Antacool, I'm referring to you). But what is really the upset with Mega-Gengar is that it cannot be properly prepared for without sacking a vital member of your team, which severely weakens it to the point where it can be defeated with a setup sweeper such as Arceus or Xerneas. Where the brokenness truly lies in Mega-Gengar is the combination of it along with a set-up sweeper, with Mega-Gengar being the fundamental component of the ability for most offensive teams to pull off easy sweeps by eliminating defensive Pokemon. And I agree with Melee Mewtwo's broad perspective of video games and how they must give players the power to choose and control elements of the game. Mega-Gengar and Shadow Tag restrict this from players by eliminating a fundamental part of skill that is switching, which is inherently a choice of the player to do, or not do; but forced not to do because of Shadow Tag.

 

[Emperor]

IMO, it wouldn't be any different just because how overcentralizing the Metagame is. It's a simple reality, and that is that S Rank Pokemon need to be prepared for. Kyogre must be prepared for or it will drown your team with Water Spout unless you carry a Gastrodon or Palkia. Xerneas (although uncounterable) requires preparation because if you give it a single turn with no prior damage, it will sweep your team in a heartbeat unless you run Chople Berry Heatran or something absurd like that (Yes Antacool, I'm talking about you). But what is really the upset with Mega-Gengar is that it cannot be properly prepared for without sacking a vital member of your team, which severely weakens it to the point where it can be defeated with a setup sweeper such as Arceus or Xerneas. Where the brokenness truly lies in Mega-Gengar is the combination of it along with a set-up sweeper, with Mega-Gengar being the fundamental component of the ability for most offensive teams to pull of easy sweeps by eliminating defensive Pokemon. And I agree with Melee Mewtwo's broad perspective of video games and how they must give players the power to choose and control elements of the game. Mega-Gengar and Shadow Tag restrict this from players by eliminating a fundamental part of skill that is switching, which is inherently a choice of the player to do, or not do; but forced not to do because of Shadow Tag.

The combination aspect you pointed out really hits home that Shadow Tag's threat is its support. I do agree that preventing your opponent from switching out their needed mon in an extremely unfavorable matchup is broken. But the problem is that I just can't justify that it's uncompetitive since there isn't any luck involved. You know you're going to die. There's absolutely nothing you can do about in a Mega Gengar Vs Blissey scenario or any similar scenario. So, the solution is to stop using Blissey and use something better. Like Mega Gengar. That mentality seems awfully similar to most cases when you construct an Uber team and stronger threats come out. You just use stronger/more effective mons.

 

[Joryn]

Here are my thoughts, although they will need to be short as I have stuff to do.
I'm quite torn between both sides in this "discussion". MGar is indeed broken, but I have had hardly any trouble with dealing with it? The only Set i have trouble with is Sub Perish Trap. The standard Mega Gengar sets are quite easily worked around if you can predict.
While Mega Gengar is broken, I do not find it competitive. I'm probably going to get mashed on this next bit but w/e

We all know that EKiller, GeoXern and Ogre are overcentralizing, yes? What do we do? We run checks and counters.
If you think that MGar is overcentralizing then run a check. Pursuit Scizor is a good one from experience! <:]

And please don't say "Oh, I shouldn't need to run a counter or check!"
Please, if you run any type of check or counter for anything, you are already being a hypocrite

On Shadow Tag as a whole, I cannot say what my thoughts about it are as I never really face other shadow tag users except MGar. But I can see where people are coming from with the uncompetitiveness.

I'd like shadow tag banned as a whole, but not Mega Gengar banned and as you can see, this creates a problem. Whenever I use MGar, I don't use it for its brokenness, I use it for its speed and typing which brings me to saying No to the gengarite ban

W/e I'm shit at writing discussions qq

 

[Edgar]

Here are my thoughts, although they will need to be short as I have stuff to do.
We all know that EKiller, GeoXern and Ogre are overcentralizing, yes? What do we do? We run checks and counters.
If you think that MGar is overcentralizing then run a check. Pursuit Scizor is a good one from experience! <:]

I consider this the only important part of what you said. I'll tell you why Pursuit Scizor is a very shaky check: Hidden Power Fire. This can be applied for a lot of "checks", Gengar's coverage is just insane to the point that it can adapt to whatever check people may try to use for it, it's not that simple.

 

[Joryn]

I consider this the only important part of what you said. I'll tell you why Pursuit Scizor is a very shaky check: Hidden Power Fire. This can be applied for a lot of "checks", Gengar's coverage is just insane to the point that it can adapt to whatever check people may try to use for it, it's not that simple.

I only said that bc the sets I have faced haven't run HP Fire

 

[SoulRed12]

I'm having a hard time understanding why we're focusing on whether shadow tag is "uncompetitive" in the same sense we call the OHKO moves and Swagger uncompetitive. It seems to me that these things are apples and oranges.

Swagger for example puts the game in the hands of the RNG. Teams built around it were not necessarily overpowered (though certainly some swagger teams have made it to the top of the ladder, while others simply hovered around irritating players near the bottom), but were still uncompetitive in the sense that they turned the game into a coin flip. Power was literally taken from the hands of either player, as both players lived or died depending on the outcome of the even-odds coin flips.

In the case of shadow tag, it limits the victim's options, yes, but I don't see that in the same light as swagger, where you had to first get the RNG's approval before doing anything. With Shadow Tag, you can at least in theory predict when the opponent will send in MGar (or Goth), predict a U-Turn, not send out a pokemon that the player needs to counter a sweeper after Gar has MEvolved, etc. I'm not saying these are easy, or fun, or fair, or that you should be forced to have to make these decisions anyway; just that it is actually possible, unlike the case with swagger or something like a scarfed mon spamming Sheer Cold. Again, in the latter two instances, your fate is forced to be in the hands of the RNG, whereas in the case of Shadow Tag, everything is definite (read: controllable, even if not very much/easily).

What's more, the primary complaint I've heard about Shadow Tag is that it lets MGar come in, suicide against something a sweeper needs gone (say, Palkia to open up the door for Kyogre), and then have the sweeper come in and destroy everything. Or, it allows Goth to come in on a crucial part of an opposing stall team's defensive core and cripple it with a choice item. If we were back in DPP OU, that sounds like it would be suspected under the "support clause," not simply for uncompetitiveness.

So to me, it seems that at its core, what this thread is really debating is whether shadow tag mons are "too good." Swagger made the game unfun by removing the importance of player choice, but it wasn't necessarily "too good." Shadow Tag on the other hand, assuming it is a problem, is only so because it makes it too easy for the opponent to win. No RNG need be involved.

Further support for this conclusion is the fact that we are considering more about the pokemon than simply shadow tag. Because the player with the Shadow Tag mon doesn't win by being on the right side of an RNG coin flip, s/he needs to be sure it gets in safely on something that can't OHKO it before it can do anything. In that sense, MGar with its high speed, I think, is in a great position, and so is Wobbuffet because of its high bulk. Gothitelle perhaps not quite as much due to its low speed and only decent bulk, but it has the benefit like Wobbuffet of getting Shadow Tag right out of the box, it has offensive options, and can cripple stall by tricking a choice item. Wobbuffet, despite having high bulk and auto-shadow tag, can't deal damage directly, but can still take down the right threats. If Goth didn't have trick, or MGar didn't have Perish Song or Taunt or Destiny Bond, this would be a completely different discussion.

(This is once again in contrast to Swagplay, where the only characteristic that truly mattered was prankster, and outside of that all the prankster mons were basically interchangeable. In theory even level 5 Purrloin could pull of the strat in most cases, RNG willing.)

Again, I'm not saying that any or all of these should or shouldn't be banned, I'm just pointing out that this really sounds a lot more like a standard OU Suspect Test than a "lets patch something uncompetitive" swagger-type decision. And by my understanding, an OU-style "too stronk" suspect test is what the Ubers tier has always prided itself on avoiding.

 

[Fireburn]

And I care in the sense that banning Shadow Tag would destroy the one principle of Ubers that I believe inviolate. Banning Shadow Tag destroys the integrity of Ubers. You might have the illusion that the metagame might be better without it, but there's no point in playing Ubers just because there's something that remotely unadaptable.

No it doesn't. We have precedent for banning stuff like this before (i.e. Moody, Swagger). Because of this, we have established that banning uncompetitive things from Ubers is okay. If, therefore, it is proven that Gengarite/STAG are uncompetitive as well (which they are), then we can freely ban them without ruining the integrity of the tier. The real question is whether or not you think Gengarite/Shadow Tag is uncompetitive enough to warrant a ban.

Actually, it's not the same. I didn't say anything about Shed Shell or making your team more Shadow Tag-proof. I said that you are in the same position to use Shadow Tag against your opponent in exactly the same way. My definition of uncompetitive is that the game strategy or aspect is inherently discriminatory, as explained in the luck example. Luck discriminates between games and gives one person an advantage that the other person cannot retaliate in return. Shadow Tag, on the other hand, is free to be used by both sides. My definition of uncompetitive has nothing to do with choice but fairness that both players get the same tools to operate with.

You also get the same tools on both sides in Rock-Paper-Scissors. Would you say that is a competitive game? Because that's what Pokemon singles devolves into when you can't switch out. Switching is the entire reason why Pokemon isn't just RPS with 18 different kinds of rocks. Luck is not the only thing that decides whether or not a game is competitive: player choice and being able to react to and counter opposing strategies (i.e. switching to a counter or trying to predict your foe) while executing your own is what makes this game competitive. Shadow Tag does not allow for that in singles because the user of Shadow Tag is in control and the opponent does not really have the ability to react or counter because if you can't switch out you can't counter it - that's how counterplay in Pokemon Singles works! Shadow Tag doesn't allow for decisions that allow you to try to counter the opponent - your opponent just traps and kills your Xerneas counter and then you get swept. How is that competitive?

The argument that "it's fair because I can do it too" doesn't help because at the end, when the Shadow Tag Pokemon have done their job, the person with the better set of rocks is still going to win. Then it becomes not a question of "can I outplay the other guy" but "can I trap his counter to my sweeper before he does mine?".

Look at the bolded part. Tell me why we are talking about banning ST again. You just recognised the problem, and it's not Shadow Tag. What you're telling me, is that team matchup make it difficult for skilled players to beat not-so-skilled players, and your solution is to ban Shadow Tag. That totally makes sense o_0. I acknowledge that Shadow Tag exacerbates the problem, but if it is like you say, the main problem is not Shadow Tag but team matchups themselves (which again, like I said, no amount of banning will ever fix). Again it's like blaming violent video games for mass shootings. Sure, those shooters might desensitise the population to violence, so let's ban those to stop our mass shootings. Never mind the socioeconomic problems, high rates of depression, easy access to guns and poor parenting habits, it's totally the video games and banning those video games is totally the answer. If you don't like the video games example, let's do another one. It's like taxing alcopops to help against Australia's binging problem. Never mind the vodkas and spirits and all the other drinks, never mind the actual binge drinking culture, we'd solve the problem by taxing alcopops. Good idea.

You are wrongly assuming that Shadow Tag is one of many things that makes team matchup a problem. It is a single thing that affects everything in ways nothing else does. Team matchup is one of the three variables that decide matches, the others being skill and luck, just because of the kind of game Pokemon is and true balance is more or less impossible to achieve. Player skill is expressed by making smart switches and reacting to your opponent's switches and moves. Shadow Tag removes that, hence skill is gone from the equation. That means you're left with team matchup and luck...do we have a competitive game anymore? At the end of the day, Shadow Tag does the same thing Moody and Swagger did: it removes skill from the equation of deciding Pokemon battles. The methodology is different, but the end result is the same.

By what you have described, your choices are already limited as it is, so do you actually have the ability to "follow a law that you set yourself" (autonomy)? Of course not. Sure, you have one or two options that you realistically choose from, but how much of a choice is that? Does it matter whether you vote for Republicans or Democrats when your government is taken over by corporate and military oligarchs? You might think you do, but there really isn't change how things are going to be run. I'm not going to berate this point since your definition of uncompetitive includes choice and mine doesn't so we can agree to disagree here.

Yes, it's called executing your own strategy while making sure your opponent can't execute theirs. Shadow Tag doesn't give you the choice to follow that since you have no ability to counter it; thus, you won't have the ability to execute your own strategy while EKiller and GeoXern are 6-0ing you. The government example is silly because we DO have the ability to change the circumstances: why do you think we're having a suspect test?

What direct impact? All you've made clear is that Shadow Tag makes things worse, but isn't the actual problem. You acknowledged that yourself just a few lines ago!

But the problem is still there. Even if you have no Shadow Tag, team matchup still wrecks you whether you like it or not. A person who isn't as good as you can still beat you if they counterteam you whether Gengar is around or not. You might think you have extra choice in the matter, but the result is still the same - they have a higher chance of beating you than vice versa. What would banning Shadow Tag achieve in that situation?

If Shadow Tag is the thing making things worse, is it not therefore the problem? Yes, team matchup is inherent in Pokemon because that's the nature of the game. But when you have Shadow Tag displacing its effects such that it overtakes skill as the primary method of deciding games, that is when it becomes a problem. And it is a problem, otherwise we wouldn't be testing it.

I think the fact Melee Mewtwo went 5-0 in SPL against arguably superior players by relying on STAG alone is enough of a "direct impact".

4-1, last game was a joke game where I brought Bunnelby and almost won but manaphy's Xern haxed my Xern when Wobbuffet gave it an otherwise free setup to win. /salt ~MM2

 

[Emperor]

You also get the same tools on both sides in Rock-Paper-Scissors. Would you say that is a competitive game? Because that's what Pokemon singles devolves into when you can't switch out. Switching is the entire reason why Pokemon isn't just RPS with 18 different kinds of rocks. Luck is not the only thing that decides whether or not a game is competitive: player choice and being able to react to and counter opposing strategies (i.e. switching to a counter or trying to predict your foe) while executing your own is what makes this game competitive. Shadow Tag does not allow for that in singles because the user of Shadow Tag is in control and the opponent does not really have the ability to react or counter because if you can't switch out you can't counter it - that's how counterplay in Pokemon Singles works! Shadow Tag doesn't allow for decisions that allow you to try to counter the opponent - your opponent just traps and kills your Xerneas counter and then you get swept. How is that competitive?

The argument that "it's fair because I can do it too" doesn't help because at the end, when the Shadow Tag Pokemon have done their job, the person with the better set of rocks is still going to win. Then it becomes not a question of "can I outplay the other guy" but "can I trap his counter to my sweeper before he does mine?".

Personally, I think that "can I trap his counter to my sweeper before he does mine" does sound like a competitive game. A very different competitive game than what most players are used to but that's what Ubers is anyway. What you're implying is that Shadow Tag prevents players from switching and is uncounterable. However, Shadow Tag doesn't prevent switching during the entire match. It only takes effect when the tagger is on the field. So, the switching back and forth outside of the tagger's presence is where the real skill is going to come into play since Gengar, Goth, and (in a sense) Wobb are all EXTREMELY delicate by Uber standards.

 

[MrPOKem0n]

While I am not experienced in the Ubers tier, I am still going to comment on this thread for this one reason, the possibility of banning Shadow Tag as a whole. Shadow Tag, by definition, is probably one of the best, if not, the best ability in the game. The option to trap all Pokemon bar ghosts types is phenomenal because it can provide the option to revenge kill opponents without flaw, while being able to switch as you please. This is nice for the most part but the only Pokemon in my opinion that can fully utilize it to its fullest potential is Mega Gengar. Mega Gengar has the option to run many different sets such as Perish+Trap or just offensiveor Taunt to trap Blissey/Chansey and kill it off without taking any damage. For the other Pokemon that get this ability, I do not find "broken". Wobbuffet is extremely predictable for the most part and really isn't an issue, and Gothitelle is more viable than Wobbuffet in my opinion because it can have offensive capabilities, but does not have great stats to back up its ability. It is also very easily Pursuit trapped by things such as Bisharp and Tyranitar and can be neutralized quite easy. Trick is nice to cripple set up sweepers and Chansey's, but outside of things like this, does not see much usage in OU. I am concerned that suspecting Shadow Tag as a whole is not a good idea and should only be focused on Mega Gengar since it is the only one who can use Shadow Tag to its full potential

 

[SoulRed12]

Personally, I think that "can I trap his counter to my sweeper before he does mine" does sound like a competitive game. A very different competitive game than what most players are used to but that's what Ubers is anyway. What you're implying is that Shadow Tag prevents players from switching and is uncounterable. However, Shadow Tag doesn't prevent switching during the entire match. It only takes effect when the tagger is on the field. So, the switching back and forth outside of the tagger's presence is where the real skill is going to come into play since Gengar, Goth, and (in a sense) Wobb are all EXTREMELY delicate by Uber standards.

This, basically. I won't dispute that Shadow Tag is broken (though I'd like to ladder a bit more while specifically focusing on it before deciding for sure), but one way or another I don't see it being able to cling to the swagger precedent because the two things are so different. Swagger makes the game unfun by putting everything in the hands of the RNG (luck). In contrast, Shadow Tag makes the game unfun by making your decisions, such as to switch or not switch a pokemon (before MGar comes in), send out a specific mon, KO the opponent's mon with something specific (thereby allowing MGar to come in next turn), etc., way too risky. In other words, the sheer presence of a mega evolved Gengar on your opponent's team changes the consequences of your incorrect decisions from simply "bad" to "disastrous" or even "game-deciding," with far too little opportunity cost to the opponent.

That sounds exactly like the kind of argument someone would give in OU for something simply being overpowered (and in fact, it is exactly the type of argument that people are currently using in the Aegis suspect).

 

[MMII]

Again, you are making the assumption that there is skill involved. Probably this derives from you assuming that each team with Shadow Tag is equal to another. They aren't. They are both going to be trying to prey on different things to assure their win condition and that means one is going to be in a more favorable position in doing so.

Let's look at a example:

-Player A will be using Scarf Kyogre, Eplate Lando, Mega Gar, Ekiller, Klefki, Palkia (a fairly standard team)
-Player B will be using Kangaskhan, TR Gothitelle, Keys, EP Lando, Scarf Zekrom, CM Wisp Waterceus (one of my SPL teams cept with TR over Taunt on Goth cause more fun)

Player A can attempt to use Mega Gar to trap Water Arc and open up room for a Scarf Kyogre / Ekiller sweep or simply apply pressure with Lando-T. However, Scarf Kyogre will still need to deal with Zekrom, Keys para, Kanga priority, and Gothitelle. Ekiller has to find rooom to setup and then muscle past Lando-T. The opposing Lando-T can create some free turns and apply pressure but Player B still has Lando and can make it difficult to find those free turns if pressed to.

Player B just needs to trap Palkia, Kyogre, or Klefki and he wins. He also has Kanga that can take advantage of the fact Player A is using Ekiller over a wisp Arceus to apply pressure on Player A's team. (if you changed ekiller to arc forme that adds more room for Goth sweep) This means Player A has to rely on his Gengar and Lando to keep Kanga in check, two key mons for his win condition. He also has to avoid trying to use Scarf Kyogre to pressure out Water Arceus as it can lead to a Gohtitelle trap and sweep. Palkia can't be used to check Water Arc if the need arises cause of Gothitelle so Player B also has that as a win con. Player B has reduced risk to clicking a Dragon-tye move with Zekrom because bringing Keys in to stop it can mean a Gothitelle sweep. Ekiller won't against Player B accomplish much unless the rest of the team A pitches in.

I thin it's pretty easy to tell that Player A has an insurmountable team matchup disadvantage as it quite literally can't use half of his team due to potential repercussions from Gothitelle and can not use the other half because they need to be reserved to construct a win condition and are vulnerable to the other 5 Pokemon on Player B's team.

It may seem like there is skill or choice involved just at preview but it's pretty clear that Player A has no possible chance to win this game because of Shadow Tag, he lost at Team Preview.

Even if the horribly unlikely scenario happens where both players bring the same exact team. The game would just be one giant fart of a 50/50. Every play would have such a high risk to reward because of the potential of a switch into Shadow Tag. Hell, you'll even run into matchups where knocking out a Pokemon loses you the game. Such as Palkia beating Choice Scarf Kyogre and then getting trapped by Gothitelle. Since both players are subjected to the same potential punishment for actually advancing the game state in their favor... well you can visualize it all by now I assume. Shadow Tag would have removed the player skill, identical teams would have removed the team matchup, which only leaves both players to hope for good luck.

 

[Fireburn]

I feel like Gengar itself isn't really that uncompetitive, I agree with a lot of other players that the other stag users are much more so. The turn it takes to mega evolve throws in a lot more skill, since it is playable around, unlike the other stag users.

Can you explain to me how one would do this when Gengar outspeeds most of the meta and can defeat every Pursuit user?

 

[haxiom]

Can you explain to me how one would do this when Gengar outspeeds most of the meta and can defeat every Pursuit user?

Okay, let me revise that. Comparitively, Gengar is easier to play around than other stag users due to the evolution turn.

 

[Disaster Area]

Okay, let me revise that. Comparitively, Gengar is easier to play around than other stag users due to the evolution turn.

Admittedly that adresses fireburn's point in part, but you still don't address why you think it isn't uncompetitive?

 

[haxiom]

Admittedly that adresses fireburn's point in part, but you still don't address why you think it isn't uncompetitive?

Let's clear this up. I said that Gengar was easier to play around than other stag users, and I also think that given that, Gengar is less uncompetitive because the player's skill is more relevant. Please do not ignore the comparative words.

 

[Lumari]

No it doesn't. We have precedent for banning stuff like this before (i.e. Moody, Swagger). Because of this, we have established that banning uncompetitive things from Ubers is okay. If, therefore, it is proven that Gengarite/STAG are uncompetitive as well (which they are), then we can freely ban them without ruining the integrity of the tier. The real question is whether or not you think Gengarite/Shadow Tag is uncompetitive enough to warrant a ban.

I'm sorry, but I don't really understand this. If I'm reading this correctly, you're grouping Shadow Tag and Moody/Swagger into the same category. There's a very fine line between these two, in that the RNG largely decides the outcome of Swagger games, whereas the RNG does not come into play concerning Shadow Tag. Imo this should be a prominent focal point of this discussion, and you're just glossing over it. In the Moody and Swagger clauses, you have just established that removing luck-based stuff from Ubers is okay, as confirmed by Hugen's Swagger announcement:

Following the precedent set by the Moody and OHKO Clauses, the Swagger ban will be extended to Ubers, removing an almost entirely luck-based and destructive part of the metagame. However I'd like to reiterate what I said in the first post. This will NOT be used as a precedent to balance the metagame by removing aspects that are considered "too strong".

It's just very flawed logically to blindly throw Shadow Tag and Swagger in the same category, and imo the fine line between these two is the exact difference between an Ubers and OU mentality. Stuff that allows the RNG to decide a game's outcome for the most part should be removed from play entirely (if reasonably possible), no questions asked here, that's common sense. On the other hand, I always thought that all stuff that relied solely on the players' decisions was welcome in Ubers, no matter how stupidly overcentralising or overpowered it was. Throwing out stuff because it's unreasonably hard to bypass/defeat is OU mentality - keeping it is Ubers mentality. It is possible to bypass STag, and debating whether this is 'too hard' or whether 'the opportunity cost is too high' is OU mentality imo.

(as for the other clauses: Sleep clause is RNG based, as argued by shrang. Species clause not as such I guess, but it would lead to a clusterfuck of not being able to distinguish between Dialga A, B, and C, which is also undesirable lol).

In short, imo there is no precedent for removing Shadow Tag or Mega Gengar, and from what I know of the integrity of Ubers, this would directly violate it. You get what TrollFreak throws your way, and if you don't like it, tough luck. As long as it's two humans playing against each other.

I don't plan on participating much in this thread, but it really worries me how easily people throw Swagger and STag under the same denominator, whereas imo there's a fundamental difference between the two which should be really important in making a decision and that's simply brushed aside now. Just wanted to point that out.

 

[Fireburn]

It's just very flawed logically to blindly throw Shadow Tag and Swagger in the same category, and imo the fine line between these two is the exact difference between an Ubers and OU mentality. Stuff that allows the RNG to decide a game's outcome for the most part should be removed from play entirely (if reasonably possible), no questions asked here, that's common sense. On the other hand, I always thought that all stuff that relied solely on the players' decisions was welcome in Ubers, no matter how stupidly overcentralising or overpowered it was. Throwing out stuff because it's unreasonably hard to bypass/defeat is OU mentality - keeping it is Ubers mentality. It is possible to bypass STag, and debating whether this is 'too hard' or whether 'the opportunity cost is too high' is OU mentality imo.

(as for the other clauses: Sleep clause is RNG based, as argued by shrang. Species clause not as such I guess, but it would lead to a clusterfuck of not being able to distinguish between Dialga A, B, and C, which is also undesirable lol).

Please, then, share with me how it is possible to bypass Shadow Tag, as I and many other people in this thread would love to know. As I explained before, luck is not the only thing that can make a metagame uncompetitive.

 

[Lumari]

Please, then, share with me how it is possible to bypass Shadow Tag, as I and many other people in this thread would love to know. As I explained before, luck is not the only thing that can make a metagame uncompetitive.

Shed Shell, U-turn, dry Baton passing, to name a few. Situational and a stupidly high opportunity cost, I know, but no higher than running niche stuff like Quagsire to counter Kyogre (edit: in genIV I mean - my comment was on the mentality of Ubers, which should have been the same back then). And I'm not saying luck is the only thing that can make a metagame uncompetitive; I am saying it has been the only reason for past bans from Ubers, so those cannot easily be used as precedents for banning Shadow Tag.

 

[Disaster Area]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uberssuspecttest-145488381
me vs melee mewtwo on ladder. His defeating my arceus-water led to me counters-sweeping with gothitelle as a consequence of him defeating my pokemon. An example for use in this discussion perhaps? It's tag versus tag, and it shows how much it can affect the game. Hax did admittedly affect the outcome, as did me running the old taunt goth instead of the currently more popular trick room variant also netted me part of this win. This match might well gain from further analysis (ignoring the very ending)