http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/checks-and-counters.3473256/
Read that for the difference between checks and counters. That set is a Check and not anywhere near a counter.
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Read that for the difference between checks and counters. That set is a Check and not anywhere near a counter.
I'm assuming Dread Plate boosts Fling's power? Iron Ball is still more powerful, though of course it's probably not exactly viable due to grounding you and making you even slower.
Just to further on jamashawalker 's point about keldeo being a 'counter' to Crawdaunt due to the fact it can switch in and revenge kill it, you might be benefited by checking out this link here or Cap's definition on what a counter is here because if you look at the definition of what they have found to be:
Can switch into this CAP's strongest reliable STAB attacks at least three times from full health.
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 186-219 (51.8 - 61%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
That does not work for Keldeo.
Can switch into this CAP's strongest possible coverage move at least twice from full health.
252+ Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Aerial Ace vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 224-264 (62.3 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Keldeo is not safe.
Can OHKO or 2HKO the CAP with one of the moves on that Pokemon's relevant official Smogon moveset.
Keldeo can do this but there is nothing limiting Crawdaunt switching as luckily Keldeo does not possess either Arena Trap or Shadow Tag as an ability and the CM set has many potential checks/counters to it depending on what the coverage used/moveset of it is.
Can set up, use hazards, weather, or otherwise execute an opponent's strategy without risking a 2HKO.
Well as shown by both the Crabhammer calc and the Aerial Ace calc, you cannot safely set up on this mon without risking a 2HKO granted you may 'predict' the opponent, however I hate prediction being used in an argument as it's very subjective to change given the randomness of pokemon as a whole.
So as you can see, I have no problem with you calling Keldeo a 'check' to Crawdaunt as it fails to OHKO with any of it's moves, meaning that Keldeo can safely switch in to it any ONE given time, but at the loss of Keldeo's item or at the cost of between 60-70% of it's health and with Keldeo having no reliable recovery such as Recover, Softboiled etc my point remains that this mon is INCREDIBLY dangerous and really does limit the teambuilding that can be done within the UU tier.
Can switch into this CAP's strongest reliable STAB attacks at least three times from full health.
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 186-219 (51.8 - 61%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
That does not work for Keldeo.
Can switch into this CAP's strongest possible coverage move at least twice from full health.
252+ Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Aerial Ace vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 224-264 (62.3 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Keldeo is not safe.
Can OHKO or 2HKO the CAP with one of the moves on that Pokemon's relevant official Smogon moveset.
Keldeo can do this but there is nothing limiting Crawdaunt switching as luckily Keldeo does not possess either Arena Trap or Shadow Tag as an ability and the CM set has many potential checks/counters to it depending on what the coverage used/moveset of it is.
Can set up, use hazards, weather, or otherwise execute an opponent's strategy without risking a 2HKO.
Well as shown by both the Crabhammer calc and the Aerial Ace calc, you cannot safely set up on this mon without risking a 2HKO granted you may 'predict' the opponent, however I hate prediction being used in an argument as it's very subjective to change given the randomness of pokemon as a whole.
So as you can see, I have no problem with you calling Keldeo a 'check' to Crawdaunt as it fails to OHKO with any of it's moves, meaning that Keldeo can safely switch in to it any ONE given time, but at the loss of Keldeo's item or at the cost of between 60-70% of it's health and with Keldeo having no reliable recovery such as Recover, Softboiled etc my point remains that this mon is INCREDIBLY dangerous and really does limit the teambuilding that can be done within the UU tier.
Does Crawdaunt even have a solid counter? the go-to counter was chestnaught, but Aerial ace gets it in any scenario, seeing how AA is just as useful to crawdaunt as superpower, I really don't see anything left that can deal with it.
Avalugg work I guess, but taking 25% from stealth rock really gets it and it can't really do all that much back. Sets with Superpower can 2HKO after SR, assuming Ava switches into a Knock off, kill its lefties. Considering Ava's defense that is pretty remarkable.
Mega Aggron also comes to mind but again can't really do anything back. The trend I'm seeing is that pretty much anything faster than Crawdaunt (which surprisingly not a lot, Speed invested adamant gets up to 209, uninvented 86 sitting at 208. 86 Being very relevant because rotoms. Which is made even more apparent because the only pokemon not completely beached by his dual stab and/or select move + aqua jet have to run full defenses but the only few physical tanks we have above 86 are Zapdos, Krookodile, Zygarde, Arcanine And maybe Hydreigon if you wanna get creative.
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 229-270 (59.6 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 96-114 (25 - 29.6%) -- 0.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Krookodile: 328-390 (83.2 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(range of an aqua jet)
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 187-221 (44.5 - 52.6%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO
4 Atk Zygarde Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Crawdaunt: 148-175 (55.2 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Do I even need to do calcs for arcanine?
Hydreigon completely messes with the AA sets, however, but can take a right 70% from ones with superpower. Not to mention Hydreigon's only tool to take out crawdaunt is risky Draco meteor or focus blast. HOWEVER. Hydreigon DOES have reliable recovery in the form of roost.
Avalugg work I guess, but taking 25% from stealth rock really gets it and it can't really do all that much back. Sets with Superpower can 2HKO after SR, assuming Ava switches into a Knock off, kill its lefties. Considering Ava's defense that is pretty remarkable.
Mega Aggron also comes to mind but again can't really do anything back. The trend I'm seeing is that pretty much anything faster than Crawdaunt (which surprisingly not a lot, Speed invested adamant gets up to 209, uninvented 86 sitting at 208. 86 Being very relevant because rotoms. Which is made even more apparent because the only pokemon not completely beached by his dual stab and/or select move + aqua jet have to run full defenses but the only few physical tanks we have above 86 are Zapdos, Krookodile, Zygarde, Arcanine And maybe Hydreigon if you wanna get creative.
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 229-270 (59.6 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 96-114 (25 - 29.6%) -- 0.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Krookodile: 328-390 (83.2 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(range of an aqua jet)
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 187-221 (44.5 - 52.6%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO
4 Atk Zygarde Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Crawdaunt: 148-175 (55.2 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Do I even need to do calcs for arcanine?
Hydreigon completely messes with the AA sets, however, but can take a right 70% from ones with superpower. Not to mention Hydreigon's only tool to take out crawdaunt is risky Draco meteor or focus blast. HOWEVER. Hydreigon DOES have reliable recovery in the form of roost.
toxicroak is a counter to crawdaunt, it must have enough speed investment tho
tangrowth works too
and chesnaught
I think that is all
there are lots of checks and revenge killer, but not enough counters, even def umbreon is 55.3 - 65.2% by it
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Actually, according to last month's statistics 57% Crawdaunt had either Dragon Dance or Swords Dance (and 57% Absol had Swords Dance). Anywho, how is that relevant? If one set is more popular doesn't mean other sets don't have their merits.
If you're giving up Knock Off for Play Rough it's obviously because Dark + Fairy have perfect neutral coverage, therefore giving you enough room to run both Swords Dance and Sucker Punch. Fire Blast fits nowhere in this set.
If you're going to use Mega Absol as an all out attacker then Knock Off is much better, that much we agree.
Swords Dance Mega Absol is way too frail. It can't set up on anything despite a decent defensive typing and is better off as an all-out attacker. Knock Off isn't really an option, sadly, because Play Rough is waaay too useful to give up. I don't really like Mega Absol in thos meta due to the presence of excellent Defog users and Mega Blastois, but if I had to use it, I'd use all-out attacker just because you need the immediate mixed offensive presence.
I mean, you might be able to force stuff out and set up, as you can rip through certain teams, but for something like Mega Absol I wouldnt want to take the risk.
I mean, you might be able to force stuff out and set up, as you can rip through certain teams, but for something like Mega Absol I wouldnt want to take the risk.
Apologies for my newbishness but what set is that?
^This is the set:
Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 24 Spd / 232 SDef
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost
- Psyshock
The Speed EVs creep adamant Honchkrow and other base 100; alternatively you can use 252 HP / 80 SpD / 176 Spe with a Timid nature to outspeed Roserade.
My biggest issue with stallbreaker Mew is that you can't use Defog (unless you run it over Psyshock lol) and that's usually what I add Mew to my teams for. Still an amazing Pokemon that's hard to deal with for stall teams (Sableye, come back ;_;)
Ernesto edit: That's why you use Aromatisse :o
Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 24 Spd / 232 SDef
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost
- Psyshock
The Speed EVs creep adamant Honchkrow and other base 100; alternatively you can use 252 HP / 80 SpD / 176 Spe with a Timid nature to outspeed Roserade.
My biggest issue with stallbreaker Mew is that you can't use Defog (unless you run it over Psyshock lol) and that's usually what I add Mew to my teams for. Still an amazing Pokemon that's hard to deal with for stall teams (Sableye, come back ;_;)
Ernesto edit: That's why you use Aromatisse :o
it does.
iron ball means hawlucha has 142 speed iinw with that EV spread before flinging it (this means hawlucha can no longer safely fling it into jellicent's face: you'll need to invest another 124 speed evs for that, way too much imho)
dread plate fling is basically a poor man's knock off, but it suffices.
i've been running physically defensive poliwrath as an effective crawdaunt counter, but it also destroys non hp electric suicune, darmanitan, some houndoom, and is an excellent scald switch-in. i'm surprised that no one has even mentioned it
Because it fails to counter crawdaunt.
Not only is it slower, its attack is pretty lower too, relying on submission or circle throw to do damage to crawdaunt. Not to mention, Aerial Aces doing about 40% each switch in. Wraith fails to consistently take Crawdaunt out before its taken out by Crawdaunt. Since it can only take 3 hits and has no reliable recovery, Wraith would need to switch in 2HKO it if it was faster or OHKO it since it's slower. Sure it punishes crabhammer or aqua jet spam but crawdaunts mostly look for opportunities to knock off, especially with its massive damage, better neutral coverage than water and its unility is knocking off. having to rely on prediction to be able to attempt to counter something should be a point towards its subject, not against.
(On switch in)
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 107-126 (27.8 - 32.8%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(First turn in)
252+ Atk Life Orb Crawdaunt Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 133-159 (34.6 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Poliwrath Submission vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Crawdaunt: 188-224 (70.1 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
[Assuming Min-Max damage leaves us with 27~37%]
(Second Turn)
252+ Atk Life Orb Crawdaunt Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 133-159 (34.6 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Your Poliwraith has to get lucky enough to get the lower end (the two lowest rolls too) of damage two times in a row, however a Crawdaunt user can easily I identify this and just switch out, they should know about how much their attacks should be doing. You can circle throw too I guess, but that either leaves you either pitifully low health or no item and in range to be killed with one more Aerial ace. Not to mention it does even lower damage than submission.
I think you're supposed to use Night Shade or Seismic Toss on Stallbreaker Mew. If you use Psyshock you're stuck with this (0 SpA Mew Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 78-93 (19.3 - 23%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery, the PDef Mega Aggron calc is even more sad), and you can't even damage Umbreon.
what kind of crawdaunt uses LO and aerial ace? if it's LO, it's running either SD or DD, which already must have 3 of crabhammer/knock off/aqua jet/superpower, which are much superior choices. even then, let's assume it's a stupid crawdaunt that lacks boosting moves and will get walled by any stall team: circle throw does 55% minimum, so that's already 55% + 20% (2 rounds of LO). if stealth rock is on the field, and it likely is, the next time crawdaunt is being switched in, it will be at 12% HP, assuming crawdaunt has not switched in stealth rock in the first turn it comes, because if he did, he's dead already. as for the damage, poliwrath has water absorb, might use resttalk and is almost always on a team with a wisher
Well it was looked into and that's not actually true. Since Adaptability makes his stabs 2x as powerful, his unresisted STAB is only 40 less BP than a super effective Superpower, which is again made even better by the ability to use it again without having your stats drop. Additionally, due to mega aggron having the filter ability, Crabhammer actually hits HARDER than Superpower. In any other scenario, two superpowers are EQUAL to two Crabhammers due to the stat drop. Aerial ace is a superior choice because it messes with common typings that resisted his Adaptability Stabs. Flying gets common Grass, Fighting, which resist water and fighting. AA also lets Crawdaunt deal with its very frequent grass/fighting switch-ins. And due to most of the other pokemon that resist dark/water being frail as all heck, Crawdaunt barely needs superpower to take them out.
The ONLY thing I can see that crawdaunt gets out of superpower is Hydreigon and Avalugg, the former does not play defensively and takes large chips from crawdaunt, also fearing the superpower it MAY have. And the later is too much of a brick wall to be affected by much of crawdaunts attacks at all, and like I've said before, two SE superpowers = two unresistant crabhammers but without the defense drops.
And while you insist it needs a set up move I have to disagree, Crawdaunt barely needs to set up to take what he needs to out, he much prefers leaving sizable dents in the few things in the meta that aren't taken out by his Stabs + Aqua jet or conversely just two Stab attacks.
But yes, resttalk wraith is a counter, I will admit that, you're right.
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Aerial Ace is a great 4th move choice on Crawdaunt as Superpower hits nothing significant harder and SD and DD being hard to set up. Though I agree that RestTalk Poliwrath from last gen RU is an okay counter as Crawdaunt simply cannot come in frequently during a match. Circle Throw + 2 rounds of LO usually means dead Crawdaunt. Crawdaunt needs to predict like a boss and to even hope to get pass RestTalking Poliwrath. Poliwrath also gets a much better typing unlike the shit called Chesnaught who walled Crawdaunt and loses to 90% of the meta. I can definitely see the appeal of Poliwrath.
Don't forget that Poliwrath is immune to Crabhammer/Aqua Jet thanks to Water Absorb. From there, Crawdaunt must be carrying Aerial Ace to even have a chance. Otherwise, Circle Throw will severely damage Crawdaunt to the point where virtually anything that can tank an Aqua Jet will KO it if it tries to come back in AND it will force Crawdaunt out. Poliwrath's other offensive move, Scald, can also cripple Crawdaunt with a burn if you try to get greedy when Wrath is asleep.
That is still only one counter and crawdaunt can knock off his lefties or his chesto and begon. not to mention countering gets difficult once you're sleeping as you only have a 43% (33% chance of circle throw, +10% since 1/3 of scalds burn) chance to harm him, and he only needs three turns to do you in, which; if you're unlucky with sleep talk, could easily do you in but I feel like that is stretching, since Crawdaunt would have to basically come in to your ER and unplug you to take care of you. But is one solid counter really enough? I mean Diggersby had a few counters and we still threw them away.
At what point in this metagame does play rough become the better move in this metagame? Other than the very small scenarios. where Knock off+Superpower+Fireblast provides you with way better coverage than play rough.
superpower's point isnt to hit mega aggron, it is to OHKO chansey, umbreon and some empoleon, who can cripple crawdaunt; hydreigon and opposing crawdaunt, who can tank a hit and KO; and other mons that are rare but also have niches, like ferroseed; aerial ace's only utility is chesnaught and some heracross (and virizion, which isn't used). also, hydreigon and mew have zero counters too, in theory, and they're relatively far from being banned.
also, i've been using absol and it's being underwhelming so far (whats the best set? i might be using it wrong), while specs analytic magnezone is being absurdly strong, i think it's as broken as crawdaunt
also, i've been using absol and it's being underwhelming so far (whats the best set? i might be using it wrong), while specs analytic magnezone is being absurdly strong, i think it's as broken as crawdaunt
But Chansey isn't OHKO'd by Superpower, knock off and crabhammer both 2HKO as well, same with umbreon and empoleon.
252+ Atk Life Orb Crawdaunt Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 468-551 (66.4 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 390-460 (55.3 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Umbreon: 200-237 (50.7 - 60.1%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Crawdaunt Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Umbreon: 239-283 (60.6 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Crawdaunt Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Umbreon: 161-190 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(and doesn't umbreon prefer running sp.def?)
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 224-265 (60.2 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 151-179 (40.5 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (2HKO's after first knock off)
252+ Atk Life Orb Crawdaunt Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 278-328 (74.7 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Adaptability makes his stabs so strong that they're almost a always a better idea than using coverage, unless the opponent resists both, that's where AA comes in. Yes AA is only good for Chestnaught and certain other fighting and grass types but when that's one of the only things that can confidently switch into you, then AA is better.
All you get for Superpower is really hydreigon, which isn't much since all of them out speed you anyway, you wont have a chance to finish the job before it roosts, if it is even running defensive.
And Chansey counters Hydreigon, even adamant superpower can't take her out.
252+ Atk Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 328-386 (46.5 - 54.8%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
Mew is special because it runs so many things, but the issue is its not all that threatening, 100 offenses are starting to lack and the pure psychic type does it no justice. The status happy sets are dealt with by status absorbers and the sweeping sets... like I said, its offenses are lacking. Jack of all trades, master of nada.
Yea, Specs Zone is strong af. But not equally broken as Carwdaunt tbh. To start, it is choice specs, meaning unable to switch moves. You can ofcourse run something like Ebelt or LO, but then you're losing the power a bit, whereas Crawdaunt doesnt really mind because Adapability. Furthermore, Magnezone has 3 glaring weakneses, each one being fairly common in UU right now. It has that very big 4x weakness to ground which sucks .-. given the fact that lots of physical attackers run EQ as coverage (provided they learn that move ofc).
And Chansey exists. I mean, Specs Flash Cannon with Analytic boosts does about 14% to it. And other walls are annoying too
252+ SpA Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 93-109 (13.2 - 15.4%) -- possible 7HKO
252+ SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mega Aggron: 148-175 (43 - 50.8%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO (I am not entirely sure if it usually runs max SDef, but eh, 252/0 does ~60%) MAggron has a 90% chance to OHKO even with an uninvested EQ. Also Maggron is slower so no analytic boost (unless Zone runs min speed)
252+ SpA Analytic Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 127-150 (32.2 - 38%) -- 1.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery. Umby can't do much in return however
252+ SpA Analytic Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Metagross: 153-181 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO - Metagross Outspeed and OHKO's with EQ anyway
252+ SpA Magnezone Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Escavalier: 184-220 (53.4 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - Drill run exists, cant switch in however
So yea, Zone has quite a lot of counters and checks to prevent it from becoming broken. Unlike crawdaunt, which basically forces you to run gimmicky sets or not so good 'mons in order to be safe and not lose at least one pokemon to it.
Also no boosting moves, but eh, I dont think that matters that much
Can people please stop assuming crawdaunt can just come in anytime it wants and start attacking. That thing has 55 speed and worse bulk than haxorus, its easy to stop because it doesnt get many opportunities to switch in at all.
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