Regice pretty much scares it off.
Also, Raichu can Encore any Sub/CM and Thunderbolt it to death.
Among others that i'm too lazy to think about.
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NU Discussion Thread (Mark II)
- Thread starter twash
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Regice pretty much scares it off.
Also, Raichu can Encore any Sub/CM and Thunderbolt it to death.
Among others that i'm too lazy to think about.
You're not going to use Rest first to activate the Unburden... are you?
For example:
Drifblim comes in. First thing it does is CM.
As it CM's, Raichu comes in and happily Encores it.
And Drifblim isn't that frail: i remember it surviving a Sucker Punch from Absol once i used it in UU. Barely, of course.
Well sure, but that's under the assumption that you switch in before the Unburden boost.
CB Adamant Sucker Punch vs. standard CM Chesto Rest set: 122.1% - 144.6%
LO Jolly Sucker Punch vs. Driflblim: 97.3% - 114.9%
Eh, surviving is definitely possible, more so if you run lots of HP EVs.
LO Jolly Sucker Punch vs. 252 / 252 Bold: 77.4% - 91.7%
OHKO with Stealth Rock.
Regice isn't a full counter. (This is based on experience, not facts, so may be wrong) I run max hp+max Spe, since the extra hp lets you set up more calm mind to make up for the loss of sp. att. Anyway, set up a calm mind as regice switches in, set up another as it uses ice beam, and assuming no crits, you can easily set up 6 cms and 2hko it. Psych up is a worry though, but thats rare
There is a very real chance of being hit by a crit or frozen. That's a risk you take in a stall war.
These calcs done with an EV spread of 12 HP / 252 Def / 124 SpAtk / 32 SpDef / 88 Speed
0 SpAtk Ice Beam vs. +1 Drifblim: 47.7% - 56.8%
vs. +2 Drifblim: 35.6% - 42.3%
If Stealth Rock is up, you won't survive. If not, you'll survive with like 1% HP and Chesto Rest it off. Of course, more SpDef EVs are great.
These calcs done with an EV spread of 12 HP / 252 Def / 124 SpAtk / 32 SpDef / 88 Speed
0 SpAtk Ice Beam vs. +1 Drifblim: 47.7% - 56.8%
vs. +2 Drifblim: 35.6% - 42.3%
If Stealth Rock is up, you won't survive. If not, you'll survive with like 1% HP and Chesto Rest it off. Of course, more SpDef EVs are great.
Why the hell would Raichu switch in any later?
Maybe this is why...
Pinsir, Charizard and Medicham stare angrily at Raichu.
Raichu: Sorry I'm late guys, there was this one Skuntank who thought he could sucker punch me. I just sat there encoring him, it was pricele-
Pinsir: IDIOT! We are officially fucked now. Great job asshole
Raichu: Woah there dude it's just Drifblim, the Drifblim that YOU were supposed to take out!!!
Charizard: We lost Skuntank to that thing. It now outspeeds us all and will easily OHKO.
Medicham: Damnit! It was supposed to be a run of the mill by battle when that freak showed up. I could have taken it on, but higher ups wouldn't risk it.
Raichu: Sorry I'm late guys, there was this one Skuntank who thought he could sucker punch me. I just sat there encoring him, it was pricele-
Pinsir: IDIOT! We are officially fucked now. Great job asshole
Raichu: Woah there dude it's just Drifblim, the Drifblim that YOU were supposed to take out!!!
Charizard: We lost Skuntank to that thing. It now outspeeds us all and will easily OHKO.
Medicham: Damnit! It was supposed to be a run of the mill by battle when that freak showed up. I could have taken it on, but higher ups wouldn't risk it.
I could see a rise in Encore Raichu.
Or just bring The Troll of the Icy Mountains: Rock Polish Regice. That's what i call the best troll ever (competitive wise).
One thing to note:
NU can lose Slowking soon... and we'll see fire pokes dominating the tier. Even more.
If Slowking goes to UU, NU has basically no bulky waters... ( Ok, Mantine can keep some pokes at bay... until it meets Magmortar or physical Charizard.. Entei Stone Edges to death, and so on...)
One thing to note:
NU can lose Slowking soon... and we'll see fire pokes dominating the tier. Even more.
If Slowking goes to UU, NU has basically no bulky waters... ( Ok, Mantine can keep some pokes at bay... until it meets Magmortar or physical Charizard.. Entei Stone Edges to death, and so on...)
I assumed the same thing but fortunately:
http://z6.invisionfree.com/Project_NU/index.php?showtopic=167
But it could eventually rise to UU (unless Moltres goes to BL, which it's the main reason Slowking is seeing the light of the day in UU)... Until there (if this day ever comes, that is), we have Slowking for our needs.
Anyway: What would be the top 5 pokes on usage?
We can't take the UU usage stats... because it's UU.
There, Exeggutor is used more than any fire type.
So?
Slowking and Skuntank would be one and two respectively for sure. I think the next three would be one of the suspects. Probably Espeon, Miltank and Charizard, but I could see Typhlosion, Medicham and Magmortar being right there too.
Charizard is a lot more versatile than Magmortar, which is why I think his usage will be higher. It has nothing to do with how much of a suspect either of them are.
EDit: I also meant that all six of those pokemon are suspects. You must have not got that. Sorry.
I don't think any Charizard set is 'broken' in NU. They're good, but not broken, especially with the threat of SR. Espeon is broken, especially with Spikes (with Spikes, it can run a Sub + 3 attacks set and tear through all of its counters). Fortunately, there are no good Spikes users - do any look like dropping down?
Yeah, alas.
If he did drop, that would be pretty good, both for normal teams and RD; Explosion SD Fish breaks you until you reveal your physical wall, at which point it is Exploded on for Bulk Up Floatzel or Huntail to sweep.
I've been using that strategy in UU for weeks now alongside Kabutops and physical Ludicolo.
If he did drop, that would be pretty good, both for normal teams and RD; Explosion SD Fish breaks you until you reveal your physical wall, at which point it is Exploded on for Bulk Up Floatzel or Huntail to sweep.
I've been using that strategy in UU for weeks now alongside Kabutops and physical Ludicolo.
Glaie is actually a half-decent spiker. Base 80 Speed isn't BAD in NU, and he has a reasonable amount of bulk, and offense, and Explosion.
When it comes to Suspects, like we were just talking about:
Espeon: Offensive Characteristic
Needless to say, SubEspeon is a nightmare, being able to take down almost everything in the teir. With Spikes 'Almost everything' becomes 'Everything dependant on the Hidden Power' All Espeon needs is 1 turn to Sub, and with it's offensive stats, that's not hard.
Magmortar: Offensive Chatacterstic
LO Magmortar can 2HKO the whole teir, even NU's best answer to it can lose, even with Max/Max and a boosting nature. If that's not enough, there's Scarfmortar, and the fact that every single one of his stats are way above the NU average, as well as a massive movepool. It's less beoken than Espeon, but is still broken none the less.
Militank: All three characteristics
Militank can stall till the Tauros come home. It can sit thhere and Curse before sweeping, or use moves like Heal Bell, Thunder Wave, and Stealth Rock to support, all with great ease, provided the lack of a Fighting-type move.
Skuntank: Support Characteristic
Now, this is controvertial, but I feel it may warrent a test. Skuntank in NU can basically trap and revenge half the teir, it's bulk making the job even easier. Now, it may be nessacary to stop the other big names, but you'll notice most of them are listed anyway, and imagine Skuntank being the answer to frailer, or weaker, threats in NU. Skuntank can clear the way for others to sweep with great ease, trapping would-be counters.
Slowking: Defensive Characteristic
Slowking, as most people see it, is also needed in the teir ATM. It's Magmortar's best check. However, Slowking can wall both physical and special attackers in NU, and the fire types barring Magmortar are stopped dead by the other bulky waters anyway. Most of NU's bulky waters have weakness, for example, Quagsire's low sp.def, Slowking's best answer is to throw Skuntank at it.
Slowking can wall way over half the teir, and not just special threats either. Again, it's less broken than Militank, Magmortar, and Espeon, but it MAY warrent a test still.
Bear in mind, these are just the pokemon I think WARRENT a suspect test. When a teir of over 150 pokemon revolves around 5 pokemon, with 2 or more of them on most teams, you know something's wrong within those 5.
In order of the need for a test, in my opinion:
Espeon
Miltank
Magmortar
----------
Skuntank
Slowking
The line is a divide between 'Possible' and 'Must be tested'
When it comes to Suspects, like we were just talking about:
Espeon: Offensive Characteristic
Needless to say, SubEspeon is a nightmare, being able to take down almost everything in the teir. With Spikes 'Almost everything' becomes 'Everything dependant on the Hidden Power' All Espeon needs is 1 turn to Sub, and with it's offensive stats, that's not hard.
Magmortar: Offensive Chatacterstic
LO Magmortar can 2HKO the whole teir, even NU's best answer to it can lose, even with Max/Max and a boosting nature. If that's not enough, there's Scarfmortar, and the fact that every single one of his stats are way above the NU average, as well as a massive movepool. It's less beoken than Espeon, but is still broken none the less.
Militank: All three characteristics
Militank can stall till the Tauros come home. It can sit thhere and Curse before sweeping, or use moves like Heal Bell, Thunder Wave, and Stealth Rock to support, all with great ease, provided the lack of a Fighting-type move.
Skuntank: Support Characteristic
Now, this is controvertial, but I feel it may warrent a test. Skuntank in NU can basically trap and revenge half the teir, it's bulk making the job even easier. Now, it may be nessacary to stop the other big names, but you'll notice most of them are listed anyway, and imagine Skuntank being the answer to frailer, or weaker, threats in NU. Skuntank can clear the way for others to sweep with great ease, trapping would-be counters.
Slowking: Defensive Characteristic
Slowking, as most people see it, is also needed in the teir ATM. It's Magmortar's best check. However, Slowking can wall both physical and special attackers in NU, and the fire types barring Magmortar are stopped dead by the other bulky waters anyway. Most of NU's bulky waters have weakness, for example, Quagsire's low sp.def, Slowking's best answer is to throw Skuntank at it.
Slowking can wall way over half the teir, and not just special threats either. Again, it's less broken than Militank, Magmortar, and Espeon, but it MAY warrent a test still.
Bear in mind, these are just the pokemon I think WARRENT a suspect test. When a teir of over 150 pokemon revolves around 5 pokemon, with 2 or more of them on most teams, you know something's wrong within those 5.
In order of the need for a test, in my opinion:
Espeon
Miltank
Magmortar
----------
Skuntank
Slowking
The line is a divide between 'Possible' and 'Must be tested'
I think you guys are underestimating Charizard's possible brokenness just because Magmortar is even more broken than him. But for that small period where Charizard had just dropped and Typhosion and Magmortar hadn't, I felt it was pretty obvious that he was just too much. Take away Magmortar, and I think you guys will find Charizard goes on to be the next major broken thing in NU..
1. You don't know that.
2. Tangrowth used to be OU in NU. He went UU. Leafeon then became OU in NU. He went UU.
If you're going to nominate Magmortar because it's good with a Scarf and because LO 2HKOs the entire tier, you should go meet Medicham. It can actually switch out due to SR resist and it doesn't fear Slowking because Hi Jump Kick + ThunderPunch is a 2HKO (guaranteed with SR).
I think Skuntank is like Venusaur in UU. It's a good pokemon that's now everywhere because of its versatility and power as well as its ability to check crucial threats. Like Venusaur, it's also able to support some of the strongest pokes in the tier. However, I think it should be tested.
Espeon is definitely Suspect. Specs is too easily countered, but offensive Calm Mind is uncounterable. After a Calm Mind, everything not OHKOd is 2HKOd and not powerful enough to do anything back, while Skuntank has to play guessing games. If there were still good Spikers in the tier, Sub + 3 attacks would be without question a broken set because it is uncounterable with hazard support. Unfortunately these teams must rely on Glalie, Roselia or Omanyte to Spike, so it isn't as common as perhaps it should be.
I don't think Miltank violates the Defensive Characteristic. Oddly, my problems with Miltank have been getting it in. There aren't really many physical sweepers around at the moment that aren't Fighting-type (maybe because of Miltank, in addition to the power of Medicham and utility of Primeape). I was waiting half a game for an opportunity to send in the cow only to give up, send it in on something it can't really take on and sack it to set up SR too late for them to be of use. Now, I'm using Gligar, and its access to U-Turn as well as better typing make it a much better physical wall.
Charizard isn't that broken really. On the special side, it doesn't have the wallbreaking power of Magmortar and can't break through Slowking. DD Zard is pretty good but Thick Fat Miltank can take it on. Espeon (except DD/Salac) and Skuntank both revenge it nicely. The other problem with Zard is that you have to carry a Spinner alongside it, and there aren't many good ones in NU.
I think Skuntank is like Venusaur in UU. It's a good pokemon that's now everywhere because of its versatility and power as well as its ability to check crucial threats. Like Venusaur, it's also able to support some of the strongest pokes in the tier. However, I think it should be tested.
Espeon is definitely Suspect. Specs is too easily countered, but offensive Calm Mind is uncounterable. After a Calm Mind, everything not OHKOd is 2HKOd and not powerful enough to do anything back, while Skuntank has to play guessing games. If there were still good Spikers in the tier, Sub + 3 attacks would be without question a broken set because it is uncounterable with hazard support. Unfortunately these teams must rely on Glalie, Roselia or Omanyte to Spike, so it isn't as common as perhaps it should be.
I don't think Miltank violates the Defensive Characteristic. Oddly, my problems with Miltank have been getting it in. There aren't really many physical sweepers around at the moment that aren't Fighting-type (maybe because of Miltank, in addition to the power of Medicham and utility of Primeape). I was waiting half a game for an opportunity to send in the cow only to give up, send it in on something it can't really take on and sack it to set up SR too late for them to be of use. Now, I'm using Gligar, and its access to U-Turn as well as better typing make it a much better physical wall.
Charizard isn't that broken really. On the special side, it doesn't have the wallbreaking power of Magmortar and can't break through Slowking. DD Zard is pretty good but Thick Fat Miltank can take it on. Espeon (except DD/Salac) and Skuntank both revenge it nicely. The other problem with Zard is that you have to carry a Spinner alongside it, and there aren't many good ones in NU.
the problem with your Charizard argument is that you are only listing broken pokemon as counters, bar Skuntank, heh. On another note, HJK is risky on Medicham, and a basic Thunder Punch + Brick Break or Zen Headbutt kos just as well.
That being said, personally, I believe Espeon and Miltank to be the only broken Pokemon in the tier, but, oh well.
That being said, personally, I believe Espeon and Miltank to be the only broken Pokemon in the tier, but, oh well.
Espeon needs to go for sure.
Hmm... Miltank is annoying as **** and can spell gg for a team if your SpA's are gone/cursed enough.
Possible suspect.
Magmortar? Essentially, the LO has no counters. (LO Thunder 2HKO) and it forces you to carry Slowking. In my opinion it's far to powerful for NU.
Hmm... Miltank is annoying as **** and can spell gg for a team if your SpA's are gone/cursed enough.
Possible suspect.
Magmortar? Essentially, the LO has no counters. (LO Thunder 2HKO) and it forces you to carry Slowking. In my opinion it's far to powerful for NU.
Spinning is acctually really easy in NU, because there are only two viable ghosts, and both of them aren't used much anymore since Skuntank is everywhere. Sandslash can basically come in in any physical sweeper and spin.
I would equate Slowking to Venusaur before Skuntank, but that's just me.
Also, it doesn't sound much like you've used Charizard much, IceEyes. Special Sets take on most walls in the tier pretty easily, with the exception of Slowking (and Mantine, but who uses that?) That being said, its not even supposed to be used as a wall breaker, but more as a sweeper to break teams open once their water types are gone. If you haven't found a good Charizard special sweeper set you should use a Moltresy LORoost set. beats Skuntank since it can dodge Sucker Punch with Roost. That's always fun. :)
I would equate Slowking to Venusaur before Skuntank, but that's just me.
Also, it doesn't sound much like you've used Charizard much, IceEyes. Special Sets take on most walls in the tier pretty easily, with the exception of Slowking (and Mantine, but who uses that?) That being said, its not even supposed to be used as a wall breaker, but more as a sweeper to break teams open once their water types are gone. If you haven't found a good Charizard special sweeper set you should use a Moltresy LORoost set. beats Skuntank since it can dodge Sucker Punch with Roost. That's always fun. :)
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