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NU Discussion Thread (Mark II)
- Thread starter twash
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Pinsir makes a great lead! This is due to his quick stealth rock and his high attack helping to fend off taunters.
Also hitmonchan could be ok is suppose with drain punch, especially with the iron fist boost. However in most cases close combat is better, seeing as it does double the damage. Medicham on the other hand really wants that power and using a 60 bp move as your main stab is a terrible idea, especially as it often doesent need the health as its defenses are too low.
I think Medicham and Magmortar both have their positive and negative attributes. Medicham has that massive Attack - with a positive nature, it reaches 480 Atk to Magmortar's 382, a pretty big difference. It resists Fighting, so the most common Scarfer in the tier (Primeape) can't effectively revenge it. It also resists Stealth Rock, so doesn't mind switching out of a potential revenge-killer as much as Magmortar does. It can kill Slowking switching into its STAB without having to predict or risking being crippled by paralysis and stalled out.
Against that, Magmortar gets more powerful STAB with no immunities, better coverage and better defenses.
I don't think the argument is much stronger one way or the other.
Against that, Magmortar gets more powerful STAB with no immunities, better coverage and better defenses.
I don't think the argument is much stronger one way or the other.
The LO set [same moves] is also extremely good.
x_x
There are more Flash Fire Pokemon than Ghost Pokemon in the immunities is more favored to Medicham's point. (3 to 2)
I agree, Girafarig is a great Ghost-type counter
I know! Psychic but immune to Ghost! Woah.....
but seriously...you won't believe how many people use Ghost moves on my Girafarig. It's really sad. It's like 25% of the people...
Doug has posted the NU stats in the CAP forum for the last two months.
And, looking at them, I feel we have to do something as a community, even if Smogon is not testing the teir themselves, as NU is not ran by Smogon yet, we have reign over it.
I shall draw your attention to the stats of Febuary first:
Exhibit 1: Febuary:
Skuntank: 44.49%
Slowking: 33.21%
Miltank: 26.93%
Now, as I've stated in a previous post, I think all three of Febuary's top 3 are suspect. However, Skuntank stands above all the rest, with a lead almost as large as Garchomp's lead used to be!
Now, I know what you are going to say, Skuntank's a check for Espeon and Magmortar. So look at this:
Espeon: 18.66%
Magmortar: 14.91%
So, Skuntank's got over double the useage of Espeon, meaning that it either does more than just counter Espeon, or the fear of Espeon is so great, it's making everyone run Skuntank.
The same for Slowking. Either he's being used for far more then just checking Magmortar, or the fear of Magmortar's so great, that everyone's running a check.
Match changed a lot.
Exhibit 2:
Skuntank: 44.98%
Slowking: 39.63%
Primeape: 30.99%
Medicham: 26.12%
Miltank: 23.70%
Espeon: 21.94%
Quagsire: 20.66%
Magmortar: 19.49%
Firstly, NU is more centralised in March. And the changes in ranks were not without reason:
Skuntank: 44.98% [Checks half the Metagame]
Slowking: 39.63% [Checks half the Metagame]
Primeape: 30.99% [Militank counter]
Medicham: 26.12% [Militank Counter]
Miltank: 23.70% [Notice the Fighting-type Surge? Broken]
Espeon: 21.94% [Broken]
Quagsire: 20.66% [Magmortar Check]
Magmortar: 19.49% [Broken]
Basically, in 1 month, Militank caused two Fighting types to gain 6% [For Primeape], and Double [Medicham] in use.
Quagsire's rising, because of Magmortar.
Slowking's possibly rising due to Magmortar, or possibly because it's also broken.
Skuntank just checks half the Meta, and that's broken under Support/Defence.
The centralisation around Skuntank/Slowking/Magmortar/Espeon/Militank is obvious. IMO, those are the 5 Suspects in NU right now, and something NEEDS to be done about at least the latter three.
And, looking at them, I feel we have to do something as a community, even if Smogon is not testing the teir themselves, as NU is not ran by Smogon yet, we have reign over it.
I shall draw your attention to the stats of Febuary first:
Exhibit 1: Febuary:
Skuntank: 44.49%
Slowking: 33.21%
Miltank: 26.93%
Now, as I've stated in a previous post, I think all three of Febuary's top 3 are suspect. However, Skuntank stands above all the rest, with a lead almost as large as Garchomp's lead used to be!
Now, I know what you are going to say, Skuntank's a check for Espeon and Magmortar. So look at this:
Espeon: 18.66%
Magmortar: 14.91%
So, Skuntank's got over double the useage of Espeon, meaning that it either does more than just counter Espeon, or the fear of Espeon is so great, it's making everyone run Skuntank.
The same for Slowking. Either he's being used for far more then just checking Magmortar, or the fear of Magmortar's so great, that everyone's running a check.
Match changed a lot.
Exhibit 2:
Skuntank: 44.98%
Slowking: 39.63%
Primeape: 30.99%
Medicham: 26.12%
Miltank: 23.70%
Espeon: 21.94%
Quagsire: 20.66%
Magmortar: 19.49%
Firstly, NU is more centralised in March. And the changes in ranks were not without reason:
Skuntank: 44.98% [Checks half the Metagame]
Slowking: 39.63% [Checks half the Metagame]
Primeape: 30.99% [Militank counter]
Medicham: 26.12% [Militank Counter]
Miltank: 23.70% [Notice the Fighting-type Surge? Broken]
Espeon: 21.94% [Broken]
Quagsire: 20.66% [Magmortar Check]
Magmortar: 19.49% [Broken]
Basically, in 1 month, Militank caused two Fighting types to gain 6% [For Primeape], and Double [Medicham] in use.
Quagsire's rising, because of Magmortar.
Slowking's possibly rising due to Magmortar, or possibly because it's also broken.
Skuntank just checks half the Meta, and that's broken under Support/Defence.
The centralisation around Skuntank/Slowking/Magmortar/Espeon/Militank is obvious. IMO, those are the 5 Suspects in NU right now, and something NEEDS to be done about at least the latter three.
That set is also awesome when you put Specs on it (I've used it repeatedly in UU)
I haven't looked at the data in detail (nor do I play enough NU really), but I would warn you against making quick judgments regarding quick changes in usage data in a tier with a lot less players. I think the LC guys will tell you that in their meta, even when 1 guy stops playing, it has a huge affect on the usage stats.
I am not saying that NU necessarily faces the same problem to the same degree, but do keep in mind that the less data you have, the more likely short-term trends are to have large impacts.
I am not saying that NU necessarily faces the same problem to the same degree, but do keep in mind that the less data you have, the more likely short-term trends are to have large impacts.
There are a couple of things to remember about NU. The small playerbase means that things shift far more dramatically - I (and a few others) started using Medicham as a lead, a couple of players caught on after Cham rampaged through their team, suddenly its usage has shot up. Magmortar usage has gone up 5% partly because Leman laddered hard to #1 with it in his team.
It's the sheer utility that Primeape gives you that m'akes it so good - scouting with U-Turn to damage and potentially trap Slowking, revenge-killing everything, cleaning up weakened teams after a wallbreaker like Medicham has put a colossal dent in their Quagsire/Sandslash... Note that Cham and Ape aren't counters to Miltank, but just physical attackers that aren't stopped cold by it. Expect Miltank usage to drop this month - I've panned it in favour of Gligar's better typing, access to U-Turn and ability to check Primeape (and to some extent Medicham).
Quagsire usage isn't rising because of Magmortar. LO Magmortar is the most common set and it runs HP Grass and outspeeds Quaggy. Quaggy usage is rising because it's a physical wall with reliable recovery that stops Primeape.
Slowking usage is so high because only a couple of special attackers - basically anything with an LO or Specs STAB Thunderbolt - can break through it. Unlike Primeape/Medicham beating Miltank on the physical side, though, these attackers don't have the versatility to fill several different roles. Also, depending on the choice of Hidden Power, they're walled by Quagsire or Gligar.
I think I can have a stab at explaining Espeon usage patterns. In January, Espeon was everywhere - despite not being legal for most of the month it was high on the usage list. However, once they realised how badly sets like Specs lost to Skuntank and how easily SubCM Espy was walled, they became disillusioned. In February, people were still experimenting, but the usage of Espy was down. In March, the popularisation of sets like Calm Mind + 3 Attacks meant that Espeon usage has recovered slightly.
Something I posted in that stats thread:
It's the sheer utility that Primeape gives you that m'akes it so good - scouting with U-Turn to damage and potentially trap Slowking, revenge-killing everything, cleaning up weakened teams after a wallbreaker like Medicham has put a colossal dent in their Quagsire/Sandslash... Note that Cham and Ape aren't counters to Miltank, but just physical attackers that aren't stopped cold by it. Expect Miltank usage to drop this month - I've panned it in favour of Gligar's better typing, access to U-Turn and ability to check Primeape (and to some extent Medicham).
Quagsire usage isn't rising because of Magmortar. LO Magmortar is the most common set and it runs HP Grass and outspeeds Quaggy. Quaggy usage is rising because it's a physical wall with reliable recovery that stops Primeape.
Slowking usage is so high because only a couple of special attackers - basically anything with an LO or Specs STAB Thunderbolt - can break through it. Unlike Primeape/Medicham beating Miltank on the physical side, though, these attackers don't have the versatility to fill several different roles. Also, depending on the choice of Hidden Power, they're walled by Quagsire or Gligar.
I think I can have a stab at explaining Espeon usage patterns. In January, Espeon was everywhere - despite not being legal for most of the month it was high on the usage list. However, once they realised how badly sets like Specs lost to Skuntank and how easily SubCM Espy was walled, they became disillusioned. In February, people were still experimenting, but the usage of Espy was down. In March, the popularisation of sets like Calm Mind + 3 Attacks meant that Espeon usage has recovered slightly.
Something I posted in that stats thread:
I believe that the rise of Skuntank and Slowking is to do with them being counters to threats lower than them [statwise] rather than them being broken themselves - the potential suspects aren't present on every team, but every team needs a check to them so carries those checks and thus puts their usage above the suspects.
This is probably common sense but I felt inclined to post for some reason o.O
This is probably common sense but I felt inclined to post for some reason o.O
I myself will facilitate the increase of Raichu usage. Just you watch.
(at least getting Manetric in the top 10 for sure)
About the other usages, they don't really surprise me.
I am totally for nominating Skuntank for suspect. Sure it's the mascot for Project NU, but isn't exempt from being considered.
Espeon is gone for sure. Too powerful.
This basically.
(at least getting Manetric in the top 10 for sure)
About the other usages, they don't really surprise me.
I am totally for nominating Skuntank for suspect. Sure it's the mascot for Project NU, but isn't exempt from being considered.
Espeon is gone for sure. Too powerful.
This basically.
May I re-iterate, that when I say 'Slowking and Skuntank are possible suspects' I am not saying 'Slowking and Skuntank are broken', like I am with Magmortar, Militank, and Espeon.
A Suspect Test is to see if something is broken or not. It's certainly not denyable that Slowking is very useful, and walls a large amount of the NU Metagame, and Skuntank can make it FAR easier for others to sweep. The question is, are they 'good' or 'too good'? Where is that line in the sand drawn?
There is no harm in TESTING anything which a reasonable argument is put forth for. Testing doesn't mean it will be banned. Like the other metagames, we don't WANT to ban things, but we might not have a choice in the matter.
Yeah, I'm actually going to post solid arguments for each of these 5 'suspects' soon enough. I'll be including calculations, and things along those lines.
Militank isn't a massive issue at this instant, because the way things look, she might be leaving the teir next update. But Magmortar and Espeon show no signs of leaving, nor do Skuntank and Slowking.
A Suspect Test is to see if something is broken or not. It's certainly not denyable that Slowking is very useful, and walls a large amount of the NU Metagame, and Skuntank can make it FAR easier for others to sweep. The question is, are they 'good' or 'too good'? Where is that line in the sand drawn?
There is no harm in TESTING anything which a reasonable argument is put forth for. Testing doesn't mean it will be banned. Like the other metagames, we don't WANT to ban things, but we might not have a choice in the matter.
Yeah, I'm actually going to post solid arguments for each of these 5 'suspects' soon enough. I'll be including calculations, and things along those lines.
Militank isn't a massive issue at this instant, because the way things look, she might be leaving the teir next update. But Magmortar and Espeon show no signs of leaving, nor do Skuntank and Slowking.
I wouldn't consider Skuntank and Slowking as suspects at all - being high in usage doesn't render them broken, and I haven't really seen them performing roles outside of stopping Espeon/Magmortar and co respectively (and in these roles they can be easily eliminated). It is only when the truly broken Pokemon are removed that we can see the true potential of Pokemon like Skuntank and Slowking.
Compare them to Scizor - obviously different Pokemon, but Scizor is that high in usage because of its ability to check a myriad of threats.
Compare them to Scizor - obviously different Pokemon, but Scizor is that high in usage because of its ability to check a myriad of threats.
So, yesterday I looked at Magmar's stats, because I'm playing through Soul Silver and wanted to make sure it gave SpA EVs (being soooo careful with my Quilava).
65HP / 95Atk / 57Def / 100SpA / 85SpD / 93Spe
Those right there are NU stats, and we have its evolution running rampant in this tier.
In short, I support removal of Magmortar.
65HP / 95Atk / 57Def / 100SpA / 85SpD / 93Spe
Those right there are NU stats, and we have its evolution running rampant in this tier.
In short, I support removal of Magmortar.
I'd have to agree, Scizor has been 1st for a while and #5 latias is the suspect. Same in UU, where Venasaur was used even more than Cresselia, and is used more than suspects Froslass, Moltres and Raikou.
Scizor does a lot more than just check Latias. It can check a lot of things like Salamence and Gengar and it can scout with U-turn and actually take out its counters with U-turn and Stealth Rock. I do agree that Magmortar and Espeon should be tested first, although I've never actually played NU.
I honestly don't understand why everyone's saying Magmortar is broken. Why, Rai, do you list Magmortar as 'broken' but Medicham as simply a 'Miltank counter' despite the fact that it was actually used a lot more. I am also surprised that, despite several declarations of Magmortar's brokenness below it, no-one responded to this post.
I think some people want a tier where stuff like Spinda and Luvdisc can be viable.
Whereas others would like a tier where good but outclassed Pokemon can get their chance to shine.
My personal opinion is that the number of Pokemon banned from being Never Used shoud be kept to an absolute minimum.
I think a tier below NU is a better alternative to a BL between UU and NU simply because BLs remove options where tiers create them.
Of course, few people would play NNU, but it is what NU would become with most of the current top Pokemon banned.
In fact, it might be worth considering NU as the inverse of Ubers.
We use the rejects, no questioned asked and no long testing processes.
We simply rely on the fact that OU and UU get first dibs so we're unlikely to get much of the very overpowered.
Even now, it seems that there is a very workable balance of checks and counter-checks at the top.
Whereas others would like a tier where good but outclassed Pokemon can get their chance to shine.
My personal opinion is that the number of Pokemon banned from being Never Used shoud be kept to an absolute minimum.
I think a tier below NU is a better alternative to a BL between UU and NU simply because BLs remove options where tiers create them.
Of course, few people would play NNU, but it is what NU would become with most of the current top Pokemon banned.
In fact, it might be worth considering NU as the inverse of Ubers.
We use the rejects, no questioned asked and no long testing processes.
We simply rely on the fact that OU and UU get first dibs so we're unlikely to get much of the very overpowered.
Even now, it seems that there is a very workable balance of checks and counter-checks at the top.
That's a pretty good point, deluge.
Apparently, 25% of Medicham were using Expert Belt. I have no idea why this is so - it doesn't have the coverage that Magmortar does and relies on powerful neutral hits, so Life Orb is a far better option. If anyone is using EBCham, I suggest that you stop.
The weird thing about NU is that, unlike in most other tiers, the top 6 pokemon complement each other really well.
Apparently, 25% of Medicham were using Expert Belt. I have no idea why this is so - it doesn't have the coverage that Magmortar does and relies on powerful neutral hits, so Life Orb is a far better option. If anyone is using EBCham, I suggest that you stop.
The weird thing about NU is that, unlike in most other tiers, the top 6 pokemon complement each other really well.
The top five teammates for Typhlosion are the other five members of my team. Lol. People need to use that thing more. It rapes shit.
That, and I was sort of baffled at how Charizard only had one spinner listed as a teammate, and it was at sixth.
Ice: EBelt bluffs a scarf/band. I cant really see much else, since Medicham doesn't get that great of coverage.
That, and I was sort of baffled at how Charizard only had one spinner listed as a teammate, and it was at sixth.
Ice: EBelt bluffs a scarf/band. I cant really see much else, since Medicham doesn't get that great of coverage.
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