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NU Discussion Thread (Mark II)

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Right, so, basically, on the subject of LO Magmortar vs Slowking:

If Slowking switches in on a Thunderbolt, Magmortar Wins. No two ways about it. Slowking is 2HKO'ed before it can do anything.

If Slowking switches into Fire Blast, there is still a chance it could lose. If Slowking is Burnt by Fire Blast, that will, of course, make it tke addittional damage, and, possibly lower it into Thunderbolt KO range [Or, even then, it would be crippled massivly after KO'ing Magmortar]

If Slowking switches into any move, there's always the chance for a Critical Hit from Thunderbolt, which would OHKO Slowking with any prior damage.

If Slowking switches into anything but Thunderbolt, is not Burned, T-Spikes is not down, and dosen't get critted, Slowking wins.

Oh, and let's not forget, that 10% chance Slowking is also Paralysed by Thunderbolt, in which case, Magmortar wins in speed, and will defeat Slowking [Slower, deals 50%, then faster, KO's]

The simple, but sad fact is, however, to defeat Magmortar one of NU's best Special Walls, a bulky water at that, has to stall until paralysis strikes and avoid status, crits, and thunderbolt switch-ins.

Bearing in mind, Slowking has to stall, and wait for the right time, the chance of Magmortar turning things around gets better the longer it stays in.

And, why people are using SR as an argument for Magmortar in NU is beyond me. If you're using SR weak pokemon in NU, it's near-effortless to keep it of your feild. Floatzel outspeeds ANY SR lead in the teir, and is useful in it's own right. Electrode does the same. If I was running LO Maggy, I'd happily use Floatzel or something to lead, gives Magmortar 2 extra attacks.

I'm quite sure it's a similar, if not grimmer, story with LO Espeon. You have to avoid Shadow Ball like the plauge.
 
I doubt many bulky waters (okay, Milotic) that don't invest in speed stand up better to Magmortar, though.

I don't really like LeadZel, since their SR user can just choose not to set SR, kill you, then come back and set it up later. It also has massive problems with stuff like ScarfApe.

I think Medicham is actually more threatening than Magmortar in many situations. Magmortar's coverage allows it to OHKO more stuff, but Cham gets access to Fake Out and hits a lot harder. Plus, taking resisted damage instead of 25% from Stealth Rock allows it to keep coming back in. It's also harder to revenge-kill, since it has a resistance to Fighting and so ScarfApe can barely touch it.

One thing I like about Magmortar is that, with its excellent coverage, you can use Expert Belt and bluff a Scarf as well as avoiding LO recoil.

Then, of course, there's the MixPedo argument.
 
While Slowking is considered the premier Special wall in tier by many, let's not forget that Magmortar can still be walled by other Pokemon, notably Thick Fat Grumpig.
Calcs: 252/0/190/0/68/0 Calm Grumpig vs. 0/84/0/252/0/172 Mild Magmortar

Magmortar attacking with:
LO Fire Blast: 29.7% - 34.9% with Thick Fat
LO Thunderbolt: 31% - 36.5%
LO Earthquake: 29.7% - 35.2%
--- No 3HKOs with Leftovers, and Protect or Rest can be used to revover SR damage.
Cross Chop and Focus Blast do not help Maggy either.

Grumpig attacking with:
Psychic: 32% - 38%
HP Ground or Power Gem: 33.7% - 39.9% (IVs not included)

HP Ground always 3HKOs after 1 LO recoil, and 2HKOs after 1 LO recoil and Stealth Rock damage. Magmortar won't enjoy switching if Stealth Rock is up either, and HP Ground deals 39.1% - 46.5% to Smogon's CB Skuntank on the switch.

Grumpig lacks the instant recovery of Slowking, but can use Protect, Rest/Sleep Talk, or set up with Calm Mind. Also note that If Magmortar runs max Speed, more Special Defense can be allocated, and that Grumpig is mauled by dark-types.

Just some thoughts regarding checks/counters that can be switched in. Slowking is probably better in general, but Grumpig can still T-wave and such. The Water/Psychic is much more sustainable otherwise.
 
So, I'm bored with OU and UU and I'm trying to break into NU, and I've made a few sucessful teams, but I was wondering if there is any way to make a team without using Skunktank/Espeon/Slowking/Miltank maybe keeping one or two of them.
 
That EV spread got me thinking...what is the fourth move that you put in Magmortar's sets anyways? I've run Cross Chop, but I never use it. What does it hit? There is no Chansey/Clefable/Blissey to 2HKO, so wouldn't it be better to go full special? Hidden Power [Dark] [Rock] or [Grass] seem to be better to 2HKO Grumpig with SR (46.7% - 54.9%), Flash Fire, and Quagsire/Gastrodon. Focus Blast does do a lot to Quaggy though (2HKOing with SR) and both Thunderbolt and Focus blast hurt those Flash Fire users a lot. Bulky Flareon can take most of what Magmortar uses but is 2HKO'd by Focus Blast. i dislike having to rely on a 70% acc attack hitting twice to beat them. i think Im gonna chance it to a 252/252 spread with Modest and HP Grass.
 
Leman said:
Sorry, I assumed that the first three moves were Fire Blast/Thunderbolt/Focus Blast.
Click to expand...

I assumed Hidden Power... oh well

You can use HP Grass. I think Grumpig isn't as common as Quagsire/Gastrodon.

Or... again, Earthquake. It deals with fire pokes. Leave Grupmpig to Skuntank (Pursuit). Or some other Pursuit user.
 
@jewgong: it will be harder, but you can definitely do it. Lord knows Class spends every waking hour trying to do it in some way or other. Other good pokes are Gardevoir, Primeape, Medicham, Magneton, and Quagsire. Also, go deep. Like, really deep. Like, dusclops/bastiodon/articuno deep. You could discover something phenomenal in the NU of NU. (though those guys are more UU/NU types)
This actually gives you an advantage over most teams because you already know half of what they have, and they're still completely in the dark. Still, be sure to have checks to everything you mentioned, though.
 
I'm trying to make a set for Amnesia Quagsire, but I'm not sure where to go from here:

Quagsire @ Leftovers
252HP/252Def/4SDef
Impish/Careful Nature (gonna test em both)
Trait: Water Absorb
-Earthquake
-Amnesia
-Recover
-?????

I'm not sure what to do for the last spot. With its pretty solid defense, I already know (using its standard bulky set) that it can take hits like a mo-fo. Its only true drawback is in its Special Defense, hence Amnesia. I'm not sure if I want Ice Punch, so I don't get walled by flying-types or if I want like Aqua Tail or something in place. I figure Encore could also work, but I still encounter the same problem of being laughed at by Pidgeotto or Fearow.

Mind you this is only theorymonning so far and I'm mostly just using quagsire because it evolves from the best pokemon ever, and i love it.
 
Rest could be used over Recover for Toxic Pokemon...

Earthquake as the only attack isn't that good so I don't think Encore should be in the third slot...possibly Ice Punch, or maybe use Waterfall over EQ and have Encore, but then other Quagsire, etc., wall you...
 
Amnesia Quagsire? It's not bad, but weak to status, since it can't really do anything. That said, Toxic is actually getting rarer these days because people prefer Thunder Wave on their Slowking.
 
personally, I'm doubtful as to amnesia's use, simply because grass type attacks still do too much damage. admittedly, random flamethrowers and psychics will hurt less, but everyone's first instinct upon seeing quagsire is to go to their grass attacker. I've tried just about every common special grass attack in the tier (Mixpedo's Hp grass, Slowking's Grass Knot, Magmortar's Hp grass, Meganium's energy ball, and Manetric's Hp grass) and they all at least 2KO with SR on the field. Admittedly, this was impish, so careful might work better, but I would suggest a little bit more investment in SpD altogether. Running Impish at +2, you barely reach 300, which is okay for NU, but not enough for those grass attacks. Careful +2 brings you to around 330, which sounds better to me, but more investment may be required. Otherwise you can't run Rest, which leaves you open to status, because you'll be 2KO'ed in your sleep.
Of course, if they crit you're dead too, which is one of the main reasons defensive stat boosts aren't common.
 
I would use Quagsire with this set:

Seismic Toss
Yawn
Stockpile
Recover

Try it with Hippopotas and SR/Spikes/Toxic Spikes. With Yawn forcing switches and Stockpile boosting your defenses, this Quagsire can be a pain to deal with.

Of course, bring a Pursuiter for ghosts and mainly Banette who's immune to Yawn. Cacturne works wonders as it resists grass attacks Quagsire hates and gets the evasion boost/immunity from Sandstorm..
 
Here's something new to think about.

Lead Articuno.

How would this perform? What would you use for its set? Articuno has a very interesting movepool, IIRC.
 
Cuno's movepool is more barren than interesting, I think. Given that it loses to most leads - everything atm is either a faster Sleeper or carries a Rock move - I don't think it would be that effective.
 
One thing I forgot to say, Toxic would make a good option for the fourth move, as this is a very stally set, and EQ decimates poisons+steels (except Haunter)
 
I have actually used Agility Articuno and stall Articuno as a lead with extremely mixed results. You can't set up Stealth Rock and it is basicly Taunt bait. Scarf Primeape also absolutely rapes you. Not to mention that youre best attack against many common threats is Toxic. Articuno is bulky enough to just spread Toxic. But Miltank and friends can ruin youre fun with Heal Bell. Overall I would say definately not worth it.
 
I would say the five most common leads at the moment are Sandslash, Primeape, Jumpluff, Persian and Pinsir. Articuno loses to pretty much all of them.
 
Also, what exactly would lead articuno do? It has no entry hazards to lay, I'm fairly sure it lacks taunt (and even if it has it, there are better options) or a sleep move, and primeape still functions as a much better anti-lead. Did you have any real premise for your leadcuno or did you just want to see our first impressions?
 
Ice-eyes said:
I would say the five most common leads at the moment are Sandslash, Primeape, Jumpluff, Persian and Pinsir. Articuno loses to pretty much all of them.
Click to expand...

Articuno does not lose to Sandslash, but other than that, yeah, Articuno is pretty useless outside stall.

edit: And a Lum Berry Articuno can OHKO Jumpluff and 2-3HKO Persian.
 
I always wanted to use Articuno physical options...

Ice Shard and Avalanche basically(well, it has U-Turn too) ,that's why i didn't used it yet.
 
I just wanted to see first impressions. I've never explored Articuno too much, but I guess this is why. It's completely useless.
 
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